ATGM accuracy

[vyrago]

does anyone else feel that across the board, ATGMs are horribly inaccurate? especially current generation: Javelin, Hellfire, Kornet etc.

example from recent battle:

16 Javelins fired
4 hits
2 kills

[gingertanker]

Actually if anything I always felt that the more modern ones are horribly accurate. 2 weeks ago 6 Kornets were fired at an IDF unit on the Lebanese border. 2 hit...In combat conditions ATGM crews miss alot more than you would expect.

[jivemi]

Actually if anything I always felt that the more modern ones are horribly accurate. 2 weeks ago 6 Kornets were fired at an IDF unit on the Lebanese border. 2 hit...In combat conditions ATGM crews miss alot more than you would expect.

Did you mean to write "horribly INaccurate" in your first sentence? Otherwise it seems the last sentence contradicts the first. Thanks.

[vyrago]

I think he means that in the game, he finds ATGMs too accurate. He makes the point that IRL they are sometimes not.

While SPMBT takes suppression into account, I feel that an un-suppressed missile unit with decent troop value (above 70) should manage a fairly high hit ratio against a target in the open.

obviously lower unit training, suppression, target movement and cover should reduce that hit-ratio. But in SPMBT i've seen some seemingly 'easy' shots only get about 35% to hit. Just seems a little low for fire-and-forget type missiles.

[gingertanker]

I think he means that in the game, he finds ATGMs too accurate. He makes the point that IRL they are sometimes not

That was exactly my point.

[Suhiir]

For my part I don't mind the effective accuracy at all, seems to wind up being around 25-50% (not including the more-or-less auto-miss for VIRSS equipped targets).

However it seems that about half (or perhaps a bit more) the time even when an ATGM hits it fails to destroy the target.

This combined with the effective accuracy and low number (i.e. ammo) carried by infantry ATGM units means much of the time inf ATGMs only manage 1 kill per scenario.

[shahadi]

does anyone else feel that across the board, ATGMs are horribly inaccurate? especially current generation: Javelin, Hellfire, Kornet etc.

example from recent battle:

16 Javelins fired
4 hits
2 kills

Honestly, that is not enough information.. what are the sides involved, weather, condition of the ATGM teams and the what were the targets, etc., etc.

Anyway, what I've found is that with very good placement of the ATGM teams, in overwatch if you will, I rely on Opportunity fire to get the kills. Keep their suppression low, filter them, and place them in good FP's on the battlefield. And putting a sniper team in the vicinity of the ATGMs is like putting icing on the cake.

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[scorpio_rocks]

On a slightly different, but related topic: Is it time the game could model more than 2 "shots" of countermeasures? (Is this even possible?)

Many modern systems are effective more than twice or carry reloads.

[shahadi]

On a slightly different, but related topic: Is it time the game could model more than 2 "shots" of countermeasures? (Is this even possible?)

Many modern systems are effective more than twice or carry reloads.

I'm not sure. Please give an illustration. Are we talking ATGM team reloads, what exactly are the "2 shots of countermeasures?"


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[scorpio_rocks]

I was talking about armoured vehicles' "anti-anti-tank" countermeasures - VIRSS or CIWS in game.
Systems like Arena, Iron Curtain, Zaslon, Trophy, etc.

These systems are becoming more sophisticated, cheaper and lighter almost daily and some carry reloads (ie Trophy) or are good for multiple "shots" (ie Iron Curtain). Currently, in game, protected vehicles can only defend against 1 or 2 attacks.

What I was asking (or trying to) is whether the game needs to model these systems in more detail than they are currently, whether it would be possible to add to the number of "shots" available and whether this is indeed linked to percieved ATGM accuracy.

In Gingertanker's example I would be interested to know how many of the 4 Kornets that "missed" were countered by Trophy / Iron Fist / Windbreaker?

[Suhiir]

I'm pretty sure 2 shots of VIRSS is the current limit.
You'd have to convince Andy (since he's the code monkey) more is REALLY needed (one or two vehicle types in the whole game hardly justify a code change).

[gingertanker]

Well it is true that much more than 2 reloads are available for Trophy. As for the Kornet incident, afaik non were killed by countermeasures, they simply missed. The attacked vehicles were soft skin utility trucks, which carry no APS.

[shahadi]

I'm reminded of Rumsfield's: "...one goes to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time." And, so we have a game with some hard code limits. If we can change them in the Editor, which I do not know, then problem solved. Yet, if we cannot change them, guess what, problem solved: "...to war with the army you have..."

And, if you tank formation has these systems, keep your leg troops away!

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[Suhiir]

And, so we have a game with some hard code limits. If we can change them in the Editor, which I do not know, then problem solved.

Nope, code limits are not something the editor can violate.

[Imp]

does anyone else feel that across the board, ATGMs are horribly inaccurate? especially current generation: Javelin, Hellfire, Kornet etc.

example from recent battle:

16 Javelins fired
4 hits
2 kills

I would say that's abnormal, from foot mounted stationary ATGM units or some other source?
did the targets have active defence systems?
Are you firing at max or fairly close range?
Many ATGMs are less accurate if target is close.

I would agree with Ginger Tanker the modern ones are scary due to their accuracy.
The old ones were more just a nuisance as I would expect hits at about the level you quoted above, they also hardly ever defeat defensive systems if fitted.

I prefer to let them reaction fire, I may take one shot in my turn if a unit has active defence.
For all but the short range missiles try setting the range to 90%.

Top attack ATGMs do seem to hit the side facing rather than the top reasonably often if the target is near their max range. not tested just a feeling.