SdKfz 251 Towing

[chris h]

I've attached a copy of the German KstN 1145(gp), a (TE)sW PzJ Zug (3 Gesch)(gp). (A German TOE for a 3 gun AT Plt).

If you look at the 3 gun section each one was allocated 3 x 7.5cm/7.62 PaK, 3 x 251/17 (2cm FlaK) and 1 x 251/1 for Ammo (or at least that's what is says).

Now the problem is how to replicate this in the game.

The problems are that although 251/17 could tow the PaK there would not have been enough room for the PaK's crew unless the crew also manned the 2cm Flak.

There aren't enough men to man both types of Weapon.

The KstN implies that the 251/1 was for ammo so if it was, and full it could not carry any men.

KstN courtesy of Sturmpanzer.com

[chris h]

This has made be look at some other KstN were the SdKfz 251/17 was used. All I've looked at so far follow a similar pattern were the number of men allocated is not enough to man all available weapons.

For instance the KstN 1114c (gp), PzGren Co c (gp) has a number of 251/17 allocated. In the sMG gruppe, (2 x HMG, 1 x 251/17, 11 men). In the PzB Zug, 4 x PzB 54 PzSchreck, 1 x 251/17, 10 men).

Manpower includes driver.

[DRG]

Simple, don't use the 251/17, use a stock 251. The 251/17 was generally a luftwaffe unit not widely available so IDK how that could be the standard towing vehicle for a PaK unit. If you can find info that indicates the 251/17 could carry it's normal crew a 2cm FlaK 38 plus the crew of a Pak in that modified hull I'll consider changing the carry capacity of the vehicle

Don

[DRG]

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/SdKfz-251_Hanomag.php (http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/SdKfz-251_Hanomag.php)




This type, and all the test prototypes, covered around 500 vehicles, including 486 -according to some sources /17 and /21. Normal provision for each Panzerdivision was around twenty-one in the armored infantry battalion, one in the regimental engineer company and seven in the armored reconnaissance company.

Sd.Kfz. 251/17 - Schützenpanzerwagen (2 cm) : (244 built). Early machines had unmodified 251 Ausf C and D bodies, and the 20mm gun ahd only a 80° traverse. They were pioneered by the SS panzerdivision Grossdeutschland. But the main production type was the Luftwaffe-Flakausführung, with extended side made of folding panels. Even folded, the gun still had a 360° traverse. The 20mm KwK38 comprised a small turret and pedestal mounting. They were built on the Ausf C only and usually 4 FLAK vehicles were led by a command version, similar but without the gun but with a FU-10 radio and frame antenna, and two Mg.34 or 42 for close defence.

Later on the version evolved. Auto-Union A.G. of Chemnitz built a prototype (Ausf C) followed by perhaps a dozen or so hybrid vehicles (D type), with a completely open rear and reconstructed driver compartment. The type was also called Sd.Kfz.30 or 261. In late 1944, a late model with a standard D body was equipped with a Schwebelafette or "gliding cradle" in a boxlike construction. Production figures remains unknown, perhaps 15 in all which served on the eastern front by nobvember 1944. The 20mm existed in two types, the Army KwK 38 and the Luftwaffe FLAK-38 which had similar performances, although they were found unable to deal with the heavily protected Russian Ll-2 Sturmoviks.

......so it's seems extremely odd to me that these units would be assigned to tow ATG's

...........and for those really paying attention they will know that despite what this article says Grossdeutschland was NOT an SS division......it's been 70 years since WW2 ended and still junk info is repeated as 'fact"

[Wiking]

Normally I like Tank Encyclopedia but referring to Grossdeutschland as an "SS Panzerdivision" is a heck of a weird mistake to make for an otherwise fairly well researched site.

I also concur that it makes no sense why these would be assigned to ATG units, unless we're talking late 1944 where everything that could drive was being converted to either anti-tank or anti-aircraft defense.

[DRG]

.....ah HA !.... someone WAS paying attention :) ( while I was editing )

[DRG]

MAYBE it's supposed to be this......

Sd.Kfz. 251/4 - Schützenpanzerwagen für Munition und Zubehör des leIG18. Gun-towing tractor, initially for use with the 7.5 cm leichtes Infanteriegeschütz 18. Later used to tow the 50 mm Pak 38, 75 mm PaK 40 and 10.5 cm leFH 18 Light Field Howitzer

[Ts4EVER]

About the SdKFz251/17: The version portrayed ingame is the old one which was largely used as AA.

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/Armored_Cars/Sdkfz-251-Hanomag/SdKfz-251-17_Ausf-C_FLAK38.png

The later version had a different layout and was supposed to be used as a platoon leader vehicle starting in late 1944. (One wonders how often this was achieved). I think that is the vehicle mentioned in that TOE.

http://a.modellversium.de/galerie/bilder/2/1/4/4214-3082834.jpg

[DRG]

That could be there was no date mentioned. It would be nice to see a actual photo of this version in action. There does seem to be more room for passengers although it would be a bit tight unless the vehicle crew was reduced from the older version but to make that work as a towing vehicle the game carry capacity would need to be 107. I suppose it's doable but I would like more info. Culver/Feist's "Schutzenpanzer" says the late version had a crew of 4.

The basic 251 has a carry cap of (1)13 so 4+6 ( the vehicle crew plus the gun crew-- the 107 requirement is for the crew + gun ) so with what seems a more compact gun mount in the later version it seems the added carry cap would not be wildly out of line.

Culver/Feist indicate the Luftwaffe crew was 6 so given the later version was 4 the 5 we have now would seem to be an average of the two


Don

[DRG]

It may be that the photo we have for the SdKfz 251/1 PzB is , in fact a late model SdKFz251/17......still digging into that

[Ts4EVER]

This site has a pic and also states that production started in August 1944 and it was supposed to replace the 3.7cm armed Halftrack as platoon leader vehicles for Panzergrenadiers.

Another picture:

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/431572-2/Sd+Kfz+251-17+Ausf+D+Schwebelafette

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/431553-4/SS+Armor+a+251-17+late_+and+a+251-22

It may have been used together with the 1.5cm Drilling one, they seem similar in style.

[Ts4EVER]

Sorry, I meant this site: http://www.kfzderwehrmacht.de/Homepage_english/Motor_Vehicles/Germany/Hanomag/m__SPW/Sd__Kfz__251-17/sd__kfz__251-17.html

Why doesn't the edit function work on this forum? When I click edit it just starts loading endlessly.

[scorpio_rocks]

Why doesn't the edit function work on this forum? When I click edit it just starts loading endlessly.

It doesnt always work for us Firefox users, (shrapnel have said they know about it and it will be fixed when they migrate forums to another system) sometimes can edit if you hit the button again when it is spinning.

[DRG]

Why doesn't the edit function work on this forum? When I click edit it just starts loading endlessly.


I will enquire for you.........

EDIT....... ah yes, as I recall ,Scorpio gave the reason.......do you use firefox ?

[DRG]

This site has a pic and also states that production started in August 1944 and it was supposed to replace the 3.7cm armed Halftrack as platoon leader vehicles for Panzergrenadiers.

.

I knew the one we had in the game was the over complicated Luftwaffe version but I didn't know how significantly different the later versions were. The game has been changed to allow the 251/17 increased towing capability. The unit itself will likey stay as it is as all 999 unit slots are used ( how may games show 999 units for the German army ? ) the only way to change that is find another unit to remove. There ARE a lot of Brandenburgers.........

If anyone finds a good photo of a 251 with the 2.8cm PB to compare with the one we have there now let me know.....lots of it on a 250, not so much on the 251. I still think that photo of unit 832 is the late model /17 but it would be helpful to compare photos

There's this one but for obvious reasons it's not the best for comparison or reduced to 160x80 pixels

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13876&stc=1&d=1439728870


Don

[DRG]

While we are digging into this, I'm wondering now if the zero carry capacity on the SdKfz 251/1 Rak is justified. Does anyone know if that was used as a normal transport or just a rocket launcher ?

Don

[scorpio_rocks]

I guess the problem we are running into is not "how many men can fit in a halftrack?" but "how many men can it carry - and still fight!"

I, for one, wouldn't want to be sat in the back of the 251/1 Rak when it fired the rockets!

In Don's image above - it looks like around 10 men in / on the halftrack and 3 or 4 more riding the towed gun. They would NOT be capable of fighting the vehicle!

[Imp]

I tend to agree with scorpios comment regarding the 251/1 Rak, any posible carry capacity can be ignored for game purposes.

[mkr8683]

Real quick about the Edit function - you have to double-click it.

[DRG]

Sorry, I meant this site: http://www.kfzderwehrmacht.de/Homepage_english/Motor_Vehicles/Germany/Hanomag/m__SPW/Sd__Kfz__251-17/sd__kfz__251-17.html

Why doesn't the edit function work on this forum? When I click edit it just starts loading endlessly.

I spoke with Shrapnel and was reminded that the time limit for editing a post is 30 minutes ( unless you are a moderator then there is no limit but if the edit is after 5 minutes a note appears regarding the editing )


Now, if you tried and it didn't work under 30 minute and you know for certain it was under 30 minutes we'll dig into it further.

Don

[scorpio_rocks]

Shrapnel ARE aware of this - please see HERE (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=50398)

No idea how long "soon" is...