Leo2A4 destroyed

[Wdll]

Here is the article.
http://en.protothema.gr/major-military-debacle-for-turkey-in-syria-isis-captured-2-tanks-1-armored-vehicle-intact-photos/

I do wonder (if the article is accurate of course), what happened to the destroyed Leo2A4. My first thought was that it was captured and then destroyed. My second that it was hit in the ammo somehow.

What do you guys think?

[scorpio_rocks]

This site has a video too: https://southfront.org/isis-releases-more-photos-with-captured-destroyed-turkish-military-equipment/

They have the APC moving but the Leo is not running - perhaps the Turks destroyed/ immobilised them?

The photos also include a sequence of a tank being hit by an ATGM (Kornet?) don't know if that same as destroyed tank on site you linked too (I did notice although both say 2 tanks captured they only show one!)

[scorpio_rocks]

This (probably more reputable site) lists all armoured vehicles captured by ISIS:
http://defence-blog.com/army/vehicles-and-equipment-captured-operated-and-destroyed-by-the-islamic-state-inside-iraq.html

No mention of the Leos

[Wdll]

It is possible the Turks destroyed their tank with an airstrike or something.

[DRG]

This (probably more reputable site) lists all armoured vehicles captured by ISIS:
http://defence-blog.com/army/vehicles-and-equipment-captured-operated-and-destroyed-by-the-islamic-state-inside-iraq.html

No mention of the Leos

It appears to me that list was compiled before this incident occurred.

No good new for the Turks but I did get Turkish Desert Camo from it
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14506&stc=1&d=1482499006

[DRG]

It is possible the Turks destroyed their tank with an airstrike or something.

If the Turks didn't send in airstrikes to destroy those vehicles ( and anything else they found moving in the area) that would be a serious lapse in judgement on their part that will come back to bite them

[Aeraaa]

It is possible the Turks destroyed their tank with an airstrike or something.

If the Turks didn't send in airstrikes to destroy those vehicles ( and anything else they found moving in the area) that would be a serious lapse in judgement on their part that will come back to bite them

In general the Turkish military performs quite average in Syria. And to get into a game issue, I think their inflated base experience and morale are not in accordnance to their RL performance...

[jp10]

This (probably more reputable site) lists all armoured vehicles captured by ISIS:
http://defence-blog.com/army/vehicles-and-equipment-captured-operated-and-destroyed-by-the-islamic-state-inside-iraq.html

No mention of the Leos

It appears to me that list was compiled before this incident occurred.

No good new for the Turks but I did get Turkish Desert Camo from it
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14506&stc=1&d=1482499006

This article from defence blog is dated 3 days before the above link and identifies it as ATGM hits (Fagot or Konkurs) , http://defence-blog.com/army/two-turkish-leopard-2-main-battle-tanks-were-destroyed-in-syria.html

[DRG]

This article from defence blog is dated 3 days before the above link and identifies it as ATGM hits (Fagot or Konkurs) , http://defence-blog.com/army/two-turkish-leopard-2-main-battle-tanks-were-destroyed-in-syria.html



And a Konkurs in the side WILL ruin your day

[DRG]

In general the Turkish military performs quite average in Syria. And to get into a game issue, I think their inflated base experience and morale are not in accordnance to their RL performance...

Hindsight is always 20/20 --- any enemy can get lucky .......and Greeks commenting about Turks.....gee, how did I expect that to go :)..... The Turks ratings right now are the high side of average-----we'll see how this develops.

[Aeraaa]

To begin with, merry X-mas to everyone, best wishes to you and your families!:happy:

Now, on topic...




In general the Turkish military performs quite average in Syria. And to get into a game issue, I think their inflated base experience and morale are not in accordnance to their RL performance...

Hindsight is always 20/20 --- any enemy can get lucky .......and Greeks commenting about Turks.....gee, how did I expect that to go :)..... The Turks ratings right now are the high side of average-----we'll see how this develops.

First of all, I don't understand why nationality prevents someone from commenting. Americans do comment on Russian military, Israelis on Arab militaries etc. Second, the Turks in the game have 73 BE and 77 morale in 2016. That puts them almost in the same league as France and Germany (around 75 BE IIRC) and actually with higher morale than both. They even have better xp and morale than Russian military (70 on both values), even though IMHO the latter is definitely more experienced and motivated (come to think of it the comtemporary Russian military is undervalued in the game).
Turkey isn't much more experienced or motivated than the average NATO countries that are in the 69-66 range. That is my point.
I do agree with what you said about hindsight though and I remembered that most events regarding Turkey happened after the latest update. One thing that is certain is that the coup attempt of July (and the purges that followed) did certainly have an effect on the ability of the Turkish military and I think that it should reflected in the next update (a drop in values after July 2016).

[dmnt]

This article from defence blog is dated 3 days before the above link and identifies it as ATGM hits (Fagot or Konkurs) , http://defence-blog.com/army/two-turkish-leopard-2-main-battle-tanks-were-destroyed-in-syria.html



And a Konkurs in the side WILL ruin your day

And having a hull down position and the tank next to you destroyed by an atgm and not doing a thing about it is guaranteed to ruin your day really soon...

Like one armoured corps officer said, "using the tanks like Iraqi army in 1990's as a static fortress..."

[Suhiir]

One can't entirely fault the Iraqi generals/troops. They were stuck in a situation they (for the most part) knew they had no business being in and did the best they could with what they had.

[SaS TrooP]

http://x3.cdn03.imgwykop.pl/c3201142/comment_bINKfNscUnOuz0ZdJcV1eKN5JhKdaAnI.jpg


This pretty much sums it up, but that data is like 1 week old.
Hard to give me links now. There are few more videos of Leopards being hit or destroyed. Most of good scores were recorded.

Even Leopard is worthless if operated by worthless crews and commanded by worthless leaders.
This pretty much sums up Turkish military potential.

[DRG]

.........and why their ratings are on the list for review

[shahadi]

The Turkish 2nd Army is doing the fighting along the southern border. Any question of the Turks ability to fight in Syria is best answered by it's 2nd Army.

With regard to how it may respond to a regional escalation is another question, that may be gathered by looking at it's global power ranking, somewhere between #8 and #10 globally.

=====

[Aeraaa]

The Turkish 2nd Army is doing the fighting along the southern border. Any question of the Turks ability to fight in Syria is best answered by it's 2nd Army.

With regard to how it may respond to a regional escalation is another question, that may be gathered by looking at it's global power ranking, somewhere between #8 and #10 globally.

=====

Just one minor correction, the Leo-2 formations were pulled from the 1st Army (the one stationed in Eastern Thrace) and attached to 2nd Army.

[shahadi]

The Turkish 2nd Army is doing the fighting along the southern border. Any question of the Turks ability to fight in Syria is best answered by it's 2nd Army.

With regard to how it may respond to a regional escalation is another question, that may be gathered by looking at it's global power ranking, somewhere between #8 and #10 globally.

=====

Just one minor correction, the Leo-2 formations were pulled from the 1st Army (the one stationed in Eastern Thrace) and attached to 2nd Army.

Let's give that, a formation from the 1st was attached to the 2nd Army, arguably one of lesser experience than those of the 2nd Army, does not permit us to besmeerch the capability of the 2nd Army.

Further, the ranking assigned to Turkey in the game, maybe about right given it's power ranking derived from outside sources.

=====

[DRG]

for clarity....I said the Turk ratings "are on the list for review"........it does NOT mean there WILL be a change only that we will do further investigations and comparisons before the next release and then decide if an adjustment might be warranted. I'd like to think the Turkish Army is doing the same thing with their tactical approach in that area of engagement. 6 Leos lost to ATGM suggests a change in tactics might be in order and perhaps a contract to equip them with Trophy ( or equivalent ) might be a fine idea

[SaS TrooP]

Will the list of "experience/morale to change" be published before the release to possibly discuss it?

Yes, I may have some question regarding some countries.

As of Turkish military power, we should probably ask Greeks and Armenian first who know and fear their possible power. Yet, I somehow believe that Turkish capacity is judged after their fine appearance in Cypriot War of 1974. But we must remember Cypriot military back then was not best either: old equipment, lack of funds to finance organization and training, not to mention internal terrorism problem etc.

Beating Cyprus quickly was not that hard really. Similar story with Iraq. As far as I heard from veterans, Iraqis were feared and treated at equal enemy in 1991. Their quick colapse was a shock for many.

[DRG]

Will the list of "experience/morale to change" be published before the release to possibly discuss it?


Not a chance

I could hand that list to 100 people to adjust and get back 100 different lists and I have no time for endless debate...with the keyword being "endless" and the other being "no time" I'm already working every day just trying to get done the things I want to get done.

The game allows players to adjust either side to suit themselves we provide the "guidelines" for experience and morale from a variety of sources and ways which I can assure you no one will EVER get a consensus on. We knew that when we started and it's still true today

[Aeraaa]

Will the list of "experience/morale to change" be published before the release to possibly discuss it?

Yes, I may have some question regarding some countries.

As of Turkish military power, we should probably ask Greeks and Armenian first who know and fear their possible power. Yet, I somehow believe that Turkish capacity is judged after their fine appearance in Cypriot War of 1974. But we must remember Cypriot military back then was not best either: old equipment, lack of funds to finance organization and training, not to mention internal terrorism problem etc.

Beating Cyprus quickly was not that hard really. Similar story with Iraq. As far as I heard from veterans, Iraqis were feared and treated at equal enemy in 1991. Their quick colapse was a shock for many.

I won't get into details about the military operations in Cyprus, but the whole situation during July-August 1974 was less of a fine demonstration by the Turks and more of a case of "the one who did the least mistakes won".

And there's no comparison with ODS. For one, the Cypriot National Guard did not fall that quickly, or in a bloodless matter.

[SaS TrooP]

But they also made a number of errors, including failure in briging armour to contain the beachhead, inability to deploy artillery quick enough to contain the landing etc.

Needless to say opening moves of that war are on my scenario list, I will go as detailed as I can and you will see by yourself :P

And BTW, war is about making less mistakes rather than being strategic genius. Sun Tsu points it out all the time in his work and life teaches us that whoever disagrees with him... usually dies :P

[Wdll]

What I find more interesting than the capabilities of the Turkish army (talking about the game only), is the relatively easy destruction/heavy damage on modern MBTs by a less than proper full conventional army.
What would the results be (in terms of tank losses) if they were fighting an organized (ie state) defenses? If MBTs are so easily destroyed on open ground by light forces, imagine if the opposing force had a regular army. Very interesting.

[DRG]

First off, the 2A4 is not really "modern" .......that tank was 5+ years old when SP2 was released 20 years ago

Two, they are fighting an enemy they cannot deal with in full on conventional warfare terms.... they cannot pacify the area with artillery first and it would appear they don't have enough infantry to keep them safe and it appears they underestimated ISIS ATGM capability.......and it's not a long stretch to see that there are propaganda points to be made when Russian ATGM take out what people are acting like are front line Western tanks...they aren't, they are over 1/4 century old. Nobody batted an eye when ISIS takes out a T-55 or T-72 with an ATGM ...Russian weapons on Russian equipment.... but are with a 25 year old Leo. That tank was designed to defend a 1980's style armoured assult..not wander around in the kind of battlefield in northern Syria and virtually everything is vulnerable to a side shot

[Suhiir]

I won't get into details about the military operations in Cyprus, but the whole situation during July-August 1974 was less of a fine demonstration by the Turks and more of a case of "the one who did the least mistakes won".
I seem to recall a famous quote to the effect of "making less mistakes then your enemy" :p

As to the Leo ... every time anything happens you always get someone claiming "The End is Near"! I seem to recall the USA totally gutting it's entire military except the newly independent Air Force because nuclear bombs made everything else obsolete. So excuse me if I have a private chuckle at the doomsayers.

[Imp]

Saudi Leclerc's don't seem to be fairing to badly, interestingly just tried having a quick look for them & the dessert warrior in the OOB & could not find, think I have default OOB.

[DRG]

Saudi Leclerc's don't seem to be fairing to badly, interestingly just tried having a quick look for them & the dessert warrior in the OOB & could not find, think I have default OOB.

Leclercs are in "Gulf states" along with the Warrior as UAE is part of the "Gulf States" OOB. There is talk the Saudis are interested but nothing to say they have any

[RightDeve]

It's been proven Leopard's greatest weakness is when facing hand combat

Source:

https://youtu.be/nPMi136tURg?t=21

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I don't think you'll have to worry about LeClerc's in Saudi Arabia our Senate just this past Aug/Sep approved a Saudi arms request for $1.15 Billion. This deal includes 150 M1A1/M1A2S (These are apparently on par with our M1A2 SEP V2.) ABRAMS to include an additional, I believe ~10-20 M88 Recovery tanks.
http://www.bahraindefence.com/industry-news/us-in-saudi-tank-deal

These tanks probably will replace around the 20 M1A1 ABRAM's lost in combat in Yemen in the last 1.5 years. Also it is believed these tanks will start to replace the around 450+ M60A3 PATTON tanks.

And to stay on topic...
You might find the PROTECTION section of the next very useful.
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/leo2.htm

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Wdll]

First off, the 2A4 is not really "modern" .......that tank was 5+ years old when SP2 was released 20 years ago

Two, they are fighting an enemy they cannot deal with in full on conventional warfare terms.... they cannot pacify the area with artillery first and it would appear they don't have enough infantry to keep them safe and it appears they underestimated ISIS ATGM capability.......and it's not a long stretch to see that there are propaganda points to be made when Russian ATGM take out what people are acting like are front line Western tanks...they aren't, they are over 1/4 century old. Nobody batted an eye when ISIS takes out a T-55 or T-72 with an ATGM ...Russian weapons on Russian equipment.... but are with a 25 year old Leo. That tank was designed to defend a 1980's style armoured assult..not wander around in the kind of battlefield in northern Syria and virtually everything is vulnerable to a side shot

ok I am curious, which MBTs do you consider as modern? Aren't all of them at least 20 years in development in one way or another?

I hope you are not implying that my comment is part of some propaganda against western tanks, because you would be way off. way way way off.

Do you consider the (export versions or not) T-55 and T-72 as the same....I don't know....tier? as the Leopard 2A4? That would be an interesting way of seeing things.
But that's your prerogative.

Having lone tanks in towns sounds like suicide, but that is not always (ever?) the case. At least from photos I have seen, they appear to be on open ground. The question is, where was the protection and/or fire support of those units? (talking about the Turkish units in this case).
If any of the destroyed/captured tanks were inside towns etc, who sends them there in the first place and if for some reason they do, shouldn't they have far more support? Turkey has a large army, is it like the second largest in NATO? They surely can afford (units/men) to send more than 2-3 tanks at a time.

I don't know. The whole thing stinks. Either a setup or useless command.

[Aeraaa]

Do you consider the (export versions or not) T-55 and T-72 as the same....I don't know....tier? as the Leopard 2A4? That would be an interesting way of seeing things.


Well the devil is in the details. No version of T55 is even close to a Leo-2A4, but there are several versions of the T72 that are comparable, or even superior to the Leo-2A4 (T-72B3M for example). The newest generation of Leos (Leo-2A5, Leo-2A6, not to mention the A7 version) are better than most T72s lying around*, but Turkey does not have any of these models.

Most "modern" tanks in service now are actually product of the 70ies. Some notable exceptions are the South Korean K2 or the brand new T-14 Armata.

*though technically, the T90 is in fact an upgraded T72.

[IronDuke99]

From what I have read and looked at the loss of these tanks looks down to poor tactics and training as much as anything else and, perhaps, command in terms of lack of support troops.

If you put enough vehicles in harms way, even MBT's some will get hit and some will get knocked out, especially given this version of the Leopard 2 is not as heavily protected as later versions.

[DRG]

ok I am curious, which MBTs do you consider as modern? Aren't all of them at least 20 years in development in one way or another?

The 2A4's Turkey has were front line equipment in the early 90's and development has moved on which is why there have been 2A5's 2A6's and 2A7's since then


I hope you are not implying that my comment is part of some propaganda against western tanks, because you would be way off. way way way off.

No......... but certain arms manufacturers and nations might think putting an ATGM into them might be since most tanks destroyed in this conflict have been Russian in origin and the Leo has been long touted as a top line tank......it was ....in 1990 ....and is as a 2A7 , not so much as an early 90's vintage 2A4 in 2016 with no active or passive anti-ATGM countermeasures.


Do you consider the (export versions or not) T-55 and T-72 as the same....I don't know....tier? as the Leopard 2A4? That would be an interesting way of seeing things.
But that's your prerogative.


It makes little difference what the tank is when the side armour is less than the penetration of the missile hitting it....does it ? The Leo's crew would have a better chance of getting out but that's about all. The T-55 was wonderful....in 1960....not so much in 2016 against any ATGM

[Imp]

Saudi Leclerc's don't seem to be fairing to badly, interestingly just tried having a quick look for them & the dessert warrior in the OOB & could not find, think I have default OOB.

Leclercs are in "Gulf states" along with the Warrior as UAE is part of the "Gulf States" OOB. There is talk the Saudis are interested but nothing to say they have any

My bad realised that later

[DRG]

I think ( hope ? ) what the Turks and everyone else learns from this is the absolute necessity in this era of missile and tank design of active and/ or passive ATGM countermeasures. Those two Leos could very well be still in Turkish Army hands right now if they had Trophy installed

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

...or went with the LEO-2T Program. Maybe now they'll more seriously reconsider this program as the ALTAY stumbles slowly off the production lines. LEO-2T would've given them that "top tier" LEO they obviously need. Maybe they (Turkey) should learn from the Indonesians who were smart enough to have had the Germans upgrade them to the LEO-2A6 standard after they received their first batch (~5) of modernized 2A4 tanks, they recognized they might need more as the shadow of China was just starting to arise in the South China Sea AOR.

Gotta go duty calls! Happy New Year everyone!!

Regards,
Pat

[Wdll]

I think ( hope ? ) what the Turks and everyone else learns from this is the absolute necessity in this era of missile and tank design of active and/ or passive ATGM countermeasures. Those two Leos could very well be still in Turkish Army hands right now if they had Trophy installed

Human loss aside, I am not particularly sad they lost/lose tanks. But yeah, actually was thinking the same thing years ago when in Greece we still had mostly M60, M48 and even AMX 30B as our main tanks. Not saying the current Leo 2HEL is the best solution, no idea how better it would have been in the same exact situation without change of tactics too. The Israelis have the right idea IMO.

[IronDuke99]

Tanks, and other armoured vehicles actually expected to fight in the front line, need every advantage they can get when faced with modern missiles.

[DRG]

in case anyones interested....if you try the same thing with the game you get the same results ( the Muja OOB now has Konkurs )
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14512&stc=1&d=1483222346

[MarkSheppard]

Keep in mind that the Turkish military has been degraded a lot these last few years, first with the increasing rise of islamists within the Turkish state, and then the usual purges following that failed coup.

So...

[DRG]

So yeah maybe they need an "adjustment" in the game.....and maybe I'll wait a couple months before doing that and see what transpires

In the meantime, anyone who REALLY wants to can adjust the Turkish ratings manually.

[scorpio_rocks]

If only there was a way to globally adjust an OoB's exp/mor values..

[Imp]

I think ( hope ? ) what the Turks and everyone else learns from this is the absolute necessity in this era of missile and tank design of active and/ or passive ATGM countermeasures. Those two Leos could very well be still in Turkish Army hands right now if they had Trophy installed

It all goes to show the Russians were right ATGMs are very dangerous to vehicles. You need active defences or at the very least men on the ground to deny suitable firing points especially on the flanks.

Israel learnt this quite a while back when they got cocky & thought the Merkava invincible, everybody should have. Tactical awareness is first line of defence battlenet greatly improved, tanks carry drones etc & if someone does get off a shot Trophy is probably the best countermeasure system available.
No wonder the USA supports them they study there tactics & tech though they seem to want a home engineered system rather than Trophy, economic reasons I suppose.

[DRG]

No wonder the USA supports them they study there tactics & tech though they seem to want a home engineered system rather than Trophy, economic reasons I suppose.

political is my guess

[jp10]

While impressive when intact, the age old question "Why bother using artillery or small arms against an armored target?" is clearly answered concerning external mounted defense systems. Such systems, if simulated on a WinSP unit, it should be prone to a small % being lost as in a '*' result from Artillery or direct small arms/MG fire.

[Wdll]

While impressive when intact, the age old question "Why bother using artillery or small arms against an armored target?" is clearly answered concerning external mounted defense systems. Such systems, if simulated on a WinSP unit, it should be prone to a small % being lost as in a '*' result from Artillery or direct small arms/MG fire.

IF someone intentionally risks his head to shoot with a rifle a MBT, to take out some defensive system, that person has HUGE BALLS.

[IronDuke99]

While impressive when intact, the age old question "Why bother using artillery or small arms against an armored target?" is clearly answered concerning external mounted defense systems. Such systems, if simulated on a WinSP unit, it should be prone to a small % being lost as in a '*' result from Artillery or direct small arms/MG fire.

Agreed, but it should be very small. Bit like in WWII anti tank rifles could be used to shoot up tank optics. If you were close enough, brave enough, and a good enough shot...

[Suhiir]

Actually unless you're one of only a few people in the area fighting most tanks won't notice you. Either because there's too much else going on, because you're in a blind spot, or you're not perceived as an immediate threat. Infantry has always had the advantage over armor when they can swarm them. It's when you try to go 1-on-1 vs a tank you're an idiot with balls the size of Russia.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

What happened with their "smoke/aerosol" mortars? The 2A4 has two banks of four each per turret side for total of 16 launchers of 76mm mortars. The 2A4 did use multi-layered spaced armor though the big defensive improvement was made to the turret with the use of a titanium/tungsten armour which increased protection levels against KE to 700mm/HEAT to 1000mm all around.

The 2A4 was made in different "batches" from #6 from Dec. 1985 (When production of the 2A3 ceased that same month, for a total of 300 units. There was no 2A2.) and ceased with batch #8 on 19 Mar. 1992 with 2,125 total 2A4 units built.

I don't remember but, believe someone's tank got taken out by an ATGM a few months back-I remember now-it was a Syrian upgraded T-72 or T-90. Upon recovering the tank it was found by the Russians the crew never activated the launcher protection system. This posted I think in the MBT Thread, but, I won't swear to it over the Summer.

I have to agree it's probable this incident was somewhat related otherwise if the system worked we'd see the smoke and the hit would've occurred as a failure of the smoke to obscure and disrupt the IR/Laser beam or LOS of the shooter.

This was one of a very few at the time to meet the total precept of armor from not so much the beginning but more from WWII onward of MOBILITY, FIRE POWER and ARMOR PROTECTION which allowed the 2A4 to...

"The combined system allows the Leopard 2A4 to engage moving targets at ranges of up to 5,000 meters whilst itself being on the move over rough terrain with latest modern ammunitions."

I don't think the tank is the real culprit here, as much as potentially a lack of training and attention to detail.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/germany_german_army_heavy_armoured_vehicle_tank_uk/leopard_2a4_main_battle_tank_technical_data_sheet_ specifications_description_pictures_video.html
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/leo2.htm

Turkey had the solution as early as 2010, the 2A4 Next Generation or as officially designated the LEOPARD-2T. About sixteen units were built. This tank also served as a test bed for the ALTAY.
http://www.aselsan.com.tr/en-us/capabilities/Pages/MBT-Upgrade-Solution-Next-Generation.aspx
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/leopard_2ng.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftoVdhSL8cY

It should be noted that the Turkish LEOPARD 1 (Still in service.) designated the LEOPARD-1T by Turkey, was the original test bed for the ALTAY FCS. It still carries it with the updates (In another words it's still the active test bed.) just for FYI purposes.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&n=aselsan-modernizes-leopard-2-tanks-2011-05-06
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/West_Germany/Leopard-I.php
http://tanknutdave.com/the-german-leopard-1-series/
https://news.am/eng/news/8563.html

The next was written by a Col. in the U.S. ARMY for the Army's War College. It very nicely ties up everything pretty much discussed here and elsewhere. And if you don't know me the answer is yes I read the whole thing, otherwise I wouldn't bother to post it.
http://www.alternatewars.com/BBOW/Ballistics/FCS_Minimize_Risk.pdf

Finally I did go back to several sites to try to pin down which version/batch of the 2A4 Turkey received but it turned out that that search was irrelevant as all previous and active versions of the 2A4 still in service were all upgraded to the "eighth batch" models. And it goes without saying of course that Germany kept updating them until withdrawn from active service.


And about about that artillery thing, well never mind after all we did a "bang up" job on that a couple of times already. ;)

Going "Rogue" later today. Hope you all have a great week!!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Suhiir]

Well ... as has been shown again and again ... there's no such thing as an invulnerable system. And not being invulnerable hardly means useless. A PzKpfz II (the WW II light tank with a 20mm) would be an absolute terror on a battlefield that lacks any sort anti-armor weapons.

[DRG]

As one of the end game screen messages says........

"The best tank terrain is that without anti-tank weapons." *
*
_Russian military doctrine


......and if go by youtube videos there seems to be a plethora of AT weapons in Syria ATM......and cameras recording their use

[Aeraaa]

According to this site: http://e-amyna.com/%CE%B1%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BA%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%B9%CF%83%C F%84%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%BF-%CF%83%CF%85%CE%B3%CE%BA%CE%B5%CE%BD%CF%84%CF%81%C F%89%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AD%CF%82-%CE%B1%CF%80%CF%8E%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%B9/

...the confirmed casualties from the Turkish army's sources are (given in the following format):

Date
Event
Personnel casualties with approximate US rank(*notes conscripts)


1)Aug-28-16
M60A3TTS hit in Al-Amarneh, Jarablus
Sergeant (Armor) Ercan Chelik + 3 wounded

2)Aug-30-16
M60A3TTS hit in Killyah, Western Jarablus
4 wounded

3) Sep-6-16
2 M-60Ts hit in Wuquf, Al-Rai
Sergeant (Armor) Muhammed Koshan, Sergeant (Armor) Ziya Oezkozanoolu, Sergeant (Armor) Osman Karakush, Sergeant (Armor) Akif Gules + 4 wounded

4) Sep-9-16
M60T hit in Al-Rai
Sergeant(Armor) Burak Turkoolu, Corporal (Armor) Burak Karakoch, Sergant (Armor) Halil Gedik +1 wounded

5) Sep-18-16
Mine clearing vehicle hit
no casualties

6) Sep-20-16
Premature detonation of mine
Staff Sergeant (Engineers) Bayram Kara, Sergeant(Engineers) Burak Uchar

7) Sep-27-16
UAV attack in Wuquf, Al-Rai
3 wounded

8) Oct-5-16
Firefight in Ziraya
Corporal (Infantry) Ali Goelge + 3 wounded

9) Oct-6-16
Mortar fire, 2 M60Ts hit in Akhtarin
Captain (SF) Alper Kocaman + 3 wounded

10) Nov-13-16
Unidentified tank hit in Hazwan

11) Nov-16-16
Unidentified tank hit in Kadiran

12) Nov-19-16
Accident with causes unknown
Private(artillery) Oouz Demir*

13) Nov-23-16
Unidentified tank hit NW of Al-Bab

14)Nov-24-16
Air Strike
1st Lieutenant(SF) Zafer Er, Staff Sergeant (SF) Halit Topuz, , Staff Sergeant (SF) Erdal Bolat, Sergeant Melih Oezcan +10 wounded

15) Nov-25-16
Firefight in Al-Bab
Sergeant (Infantry) Kader Acar +3 wounded

16)Nov-28-16
M60T Sabra hit

17)Dec-7-16
VBIED vs. M60T and ACV-300 near Al-Bab
Sergeant(Commando) Ahmed Shahin+6 wounded

18)Dec-11-16
Leo-2A4 hit W of Al-Bab, VBIED in Zurzur
Unspecified number of wounded

19)Dec-12-16
2 Leo-2A4s hit W of Al-Bab
Unspecified number of wounded, loss of vision for Corporal Abdulkadir Dirmilli

20)Dec-16-16
M60T and Cobra hit in Aqeel hill, Al-Bab
1st Sergeant(SF) Volkan Kulekchi + 1 wounded

21)Dec-19-16
VBIED in Al-Bab
Corporal (Infantry) Fatih Olcay + 5 wounded

22)Dec-21/22-16
Leo-2A4s hit, AIFV-AFV, Kirpi APC, firefight and 3 VBIED attacks. Loss of flag and materiel for the 1st Commando Brigade W of Al-Bab
Major(SF) Bulent Albayrak, Staff Sergeant(artillery) Oender Pinar, Sergeant(Infantry) Akien Acar, Sergeant(Infantry) Oktay Durak, Sergeant(SF) Ferhat Demir, Staff Sergeant(commando) Goektan Oezupek, 1st Sergeant(infantry) Oemercan Yekebaacie, Sergeant(infantry) Mehmet Koekkaya, Sergeant(SF) Osman Chelik, Sergeant(commando) Burak Boz, Sergeant Hasan Kavuz, Corporal Ali Yielmaz, Sergeant Ali Sezai Yalchien, Sergeant(Armor) Oekkes Karaca, Staff Sergeant (SF air force) Furkan Yavash, Sergeant (SF air force) Okan Altieparmak, Corporal Mehmet Unal, Sergeant Ramazan Karaza, Corporal(commando) Muhammad Borzaslan +33 wounded

In addition to these, 2 POWs (Fethi Shahin, serving in intelligence services of Jandarma and Sefter Tash, conscript soldier of Kurdish background) were executed by ISIS.

In the original source there are videos and photos in every event.

[Suhiir]

Well, looking at the number of crewmen killed vs wounded one would assume the vast majority of those tank kills aren't catastrophic, simply because if they were there would be more dead. A mobility (or other such "out of action") kill is usually repairable so it's hardly a destroyed tank.

[Wdll]

I assume the UAV and Air Strike hits are friendly fire?

[Aeraaa]

I assume the UAV and Air Strike hits are friendly fire?

I'm not sure about the UAV strike, but the air strike was conducted by the Russian air force. Accidentally or "accidentally"...

[Imp]

It seems to me that the arms trade & covert supply of arms seems to be booming, and there not just getting the oudated stuff anymore.
Hezbollah for example seem to have drones now to direct missile attacks. I would not be surprised to find some terrorist groups have more ATGMs than some of the smaller European countries armies do.

[DRG]

It seems to me that the arms trade & covert supply of arms seems to be booming, and there not just getting the oudated stuff anymore.
Hezbollah for example seem to have drones now to direct missile attacks. I would not be surprised to find some terrorist groups have more ATGMs than some of the smaller European countries armies do.

Judging what you can find on youtube, you may be correct

[scorpio_rocks]

There are plenty of videos showing untrained "users" scoring hits with ATGMs but none showing the misses. I wonder how many are fired and miss / are countered?

OR is it really that easy to kill a MBT?

[IronDuke99]

Killing an MBT, with a modern anti tank missile probably is relatively easy, if the crew are poorly trained or not alert and the tank either lacks supporting troops, or those troops are poorly trained or not alert.

Also who knocked out the Turkish tanks. My understanding is that the Turks are much more interested in fighting the Kurds than the so called 'Islamic State' types? From what I have seen and read of the Kurdish Peshmerga fighters they seem to be pretty switched on.

[Aeraaa]

There are plenty of videos showing untrained "users" scoring hits with ATGMs but none showing the misses. I wonder how many are fired and miss / are countered?

OR is it really that easy to kill a MBT?

There is a pattern in all the videos. All the tanks being hit are static, on top of a hill, sometimes dug in as well and almost always hit from the sides. That means the turkish army (and the syrian one most of the time tbh) is using tanks as gun platforms most of the time, supporting by fire whatever operation is carried. Using tanks like this is quite tricky, since if you don't secure the area well (and they don't), you're quite vulnerable to attacks like this. Tanks are an offensive weapon and they perform excellent at this role. Using them as glorified direct artillery will be hard for the men and the machines.
It seems that the Turks try to use the irregular fighters they support as the grunts in this conflict. Problems is, they aren't exactly top notch fighters and in the latest disaster in Al-Bab, they fled, forcing Turkey to use a commando formation to do the trick. That didn't help them though. Anyway, the above strategy helped minimize casualties somehow, since if you see the service branch in the casualty list, armor together with special forces bears the brunt of suffering. However, none of them (especially armor) is used correctly as a result. If more infantry formations arrive and the irregulars are sidelined, it will help the turkish army perform better (which will mean they'll have more casualties though and it'll make their political leverage for this operation diminish).
Finally, it is quite debatable how much "untrained" the ISIS fighters are, considering they're doing this trick for over 3 years now and many of them were ex-military personnel.

[Wdll]

There are plenty of videos showing untrained "users" scoring hits with ATGMs but none showing the misses. I wonder how many are fired and miss / are countered?

OR is it really that easy to kill a MBT?

There is a pattern in all the videos. All the tanks being hit are static, on top of a hill, sometimes dug in as well and almost always hit from the sides. That means the turkish army (and the syrian one most of the time tbh) is using tanks as gun platforms most of the time, supporting by fire whatever operation is carried. Using tanks like this is quite tricky, since if you don't secure the area well (and they don't), you're quite vulnerable to attacks like this. Tanks are an offensive weapon and they perform excellent at this role. Using them as glorified direct artillery will be hard for the men and the machines.
It seems that the Turks try to use the irregular fighters they support as the grunts in this conflict. Problems is, they aren't exactly top notch fighters and in the latest disaster in Al-Bab, they fled, forcing Turkey to use a commando formation to do the trick. That didn't help them though. Anyway, the above strategy helped minimize casualties somehow, since if you see the service branch in the casualty list, armor together with special forces bears the brunt of suffering. However, none of them (especially armor) is used correctly as a result. If more infantry formations arrive and the irregulars are sidelined, it will help the turkish army perform better (which will mean they'll have more casualties though and it'll make their political leverage for this operation diminish).
Finally, it is quite debatable how much "untrained" the ISIS fighters are, considering they're doing this trick for over 3 years now and many of them were ex-military personnel.

Basically they make the mistakes a noob at winspmbt does when facing for the first time a human opponent. :D

[Aeraaa]

I don't know how accurate the author of this article is (he claims to be an officer hit by the post-July purges) but if he's right, the situation for the Turks is worse than I thought:

https://purgednato.wordpress.com/2017/01/31/a-short-analysis-and-some-reflections-on-turkeys-incursion-to-syria/

[shahadi]

I don't know how accurate the author of this article is (he claims to be an officer hit by the post-July purges) but if he's right, the situation for the Turks is worse than I thought:

https://purgednato.wordpress.com/2017/01/31/a-short-analysis-and-some-reflections-on-turkeys-incursion-to-syria/

Sounds like rubbish. Propaganda hogwash. Okay, I admit rather crude language, however, my point is that an unsigned Internet piece should not be taken seriously.

So, I could not determine who the "he" is, nor ascertain a name for this so called purged NATO officer.

I could search the domain name for the owner of the site, but it is a Wordpress blog, not sure what information Wordpress publishes on blog owners, not the same as a domain name search I suspect, or maybe it is.

But, why waste my time on an unsigned Internet piece when there are a number of analysis conducted by reputed organizations with first rate analyst that do sign their pieces.

=====

[Wdll]

I don't know how accurate the author of this article is (he claims to be an officer hit by the post-July purges) but if he's right, the situation for the Turks is worse than I thought:

https://purgednato.wordpress.com/2017/01/31/a-short-analysis-and-some-reflections-on-turkeys-incursion-to-syria/

I don't know if it is real or not, sounds believable enough but who knows!

I did find one thing funny. “The others are not doing anything, we are the only ones fighting” That sounds like most players of World of Tanks when their team is losing. For those who don't know, World of Tanks is an action online only game with tanks. Yes I play it a lot.

From what I read in this article, if it is accurate/real, it sounds pretty much possible. Obviously I have no way of knowing if it is. Outside of the loss of life, I don't feel that bad for their problems there. They are fantastic allies, friends and neighbors and all that.

[RecruitMonty]

To begin with, merry X-mas to everyone, best wishes to you and your families!:happy:

Now, on topic...




In general the Turkish military performs quite average in Syria. And to get into a game issue, I think their inflated base experience and morale are not in accordnance to their RL performance...

Hindsight is always 20/20 --- any enemy can get lucky .......and Greeks commenting about Turks.....gee, how did I expect that to go :)..... The Turks ratings right now are the high side of average-----we'll see how this develops.

First of all, I don't understand why nationality prevents someone from commenting. Americans do comment on Russian military, Israelis on Arab militaries etc. Second, the Turks in the game have 73 BE and 77 morale in 2016. That puts them almost in the same league as France and Germany (around 75 BE IIRC) and actually with higher morale than both. They even have better xp and morale than Russian military (70 on both values), even though IMHO the latter is definitely more experienced and motivated (come to think of it the comtemporary Russian military is undervalued in the game).
Turkey isn't much more experienced or motivated than the average NATO countries that are in the 69-66 range. That is my point.
I do agree with what you said about hindsight though and I remembered that most events regarding Turkey happened after the latest update. One thing that is certain is that the coup attempt of July (and the purges that followed) did certainly have an effect on the ability of the Turkish military and I think that it should reflected in the next update (a drop in values after July 2016).

I've always wondered why the Bundeswehr has such high ratings post Cold War. Then again it is not like we ever really get to see them in action as such. Even in Afghanistan there wasn't much to report on.

[Suhiir]

Probably a reasonable assumption based on the Wehrmacht.
The regular German Army in WW II was pretty good for the most part, hardly the supermen some folks think they were, but certainly proficient and professional.

[RecruitMonty]

I don't know how accurate the author of this article is (he claims to be an officer hit by the post-July purges) but if he's right, the situation for the Turks is worse than I thought:

https://purgednato.wordpress.com/2017/01/31/a-short-analysis-and-some-reflections-on-turkeys-incursion-to-syria/

I don't know if it is real or not, sounds believable enough but who knows!

I did find one thing funny. “The others are not doing anything, we are the only ones fighting” That sounds like most players of World of Tanks when their team is losing. For those who don't know, World of Tanks is an action online only game with tanks. Yes I play it a lot.

From what I read in this article, if it is accurate/real, it sounds pretty much possible. Obviously I have no way of knowing if it is. Outside of the loss of life, I don't feel that bad for their problems there. They are fantastic allies, friends and neighbors and all that.

I can believe what he is saying about the FSA. Post Obama Admin. I think you'd need to be a hard-core cool-aider not to.

NATO's involvement in all of this business in Syria is sketchy at best and it is not like any of the main press outlets in the West are actually on the ground over there.

Anyone who is tends to tell a different story. Either that or they are part of a "human right's organisation". In which case all things military are anathema (unless of course its the locals doing the killing in which case ...:rolleyes:).

Russia, Iran and Assad's boys sure did seem rather busy though.

I'm glad no one is seriously talking about regime change anymore - handing the country over to the rebels was always a bad idea but now that the relationship between ISIS, Al Qaeda in Iraq, FSA and other Jihadi groups in Syria / Iraq has kind of been laid bare I think it would be an especially big ... lapse in judgement.

Lets chalk this one up to the wrong people sitting at the levers of power at the wrong time and hope that fresher winds will prevail.

[RecruitMonty]

Probably a reasonable assumption based on the Wehrmacht.
The regular German Army in WW II was pretty good for the most part, hardly the supermen some folks think they were, but certainly proficient and professional.

The Wehrmacht? The difference is night and day by now. In the 80s, maybe (the Grenies, Panzertruppen, Gebirgs- /Fallschirmjäger were really well drilled, had an abundance of great kit and some fine allied formations at their side to boot).

But nowadays I'd say morale isn't what it used to be. There was a real dip in the mid 2000s - politics was the cause (the then defence minister scrapped conscription, slashed funding, demobbed a bunch of units and then there was a "scandal" on a training ship of the Bundesmarine.

There are also too many foreigners in the ranks now that the army has been "professionalised". Generation snowflake doesn't want to serve in the ranks so you have to find your recruits somewhere else. A fair amount of Turks, Kurds, Albanians etc. - heh maybe that is why all those young men came to Germany recently :rolleyes:.

Then there is Flinten Uschi :rolleyes:.

(pictured with her friends)
http://www.lachschon.de/item/191964-BlitzkriegStrategen/

[DRG]

I've always wondered why the Bundeswehr has such high ratings post Cold War. Then again it is not like we ever really get to see them in action as such. Even in Afghanistan there wasn't much to report on.




If I handed out the morale/experience lists to 100 players to modify to what they believe would be correct I'm betting I would get back 101 different lists. Few of which would be anything more than personal opinion.

The lists in the game now are our "personal opinions" based on our observations and given the number of nations and the number of decades involved the chances of them being 100% correct is about as likely as anyone proving them 100% wrong.

So........ don't like our numbers? Simple----- put in your own troop quality numbers.

[scorpio_rocks]

...put in your own troop quality numbers.

Would LOVE to... However as we can only alter formation numbers by +/- 30 its not so easy.

Is there ANY chance it would ever be possible to alter an entire OoB base experience/morale values? (something many modders have been asking about for ages)

Sorry - just to clarify- not disputing any of the current ratings, mainly for whole OOB swap mods, alternate countries, etc.

[DRG]

Would LOVE to... However as we can only alter formation numbers by +/- 30 its not so easy.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14612&stc=1&d=1487431785

Is there ANY chance it would ever be possible to alter an entire OoB base experience/morale values? (something many modders have been asking about for ages)

Sorry - just to clarify- not disputing any of the current ratings, mainly for whole OOB swap mods, alternate countries, etc.

No......1/.think how that might affect PBEM.......2/ its CODE

[Wdll]

http://www.lachschon.de/item/191964-BlitzkriegStrategen/

I don't know who the last guy is (Poland) but you have got to love his face. :)

[RecruitMonty]

I've always wondered why the Bundeswehr has such high ratings post Cold War. Then again it is not like we ever really get to see them in action as such. Even in Afghanistan there wasn't much to report on.




If I handed out the morale/experience lists to 100 players to modify to what they believe would be correct I'm betting I would get back 101 different lists. Few of which would be anything more than personal opinion.

The lists in the game now are our "personal opinions" based on our observations and given the number of nations and the number of decades involved the chances of them being 100% correct is about as likely as anyone proving them 100% wrong.

So........ don't like our numbers? Simple----- put in your own troop quality numbers.

I don't mind and don't intend on changing them or suggesting they be changed. Makes for more entertaining games against the Russians the way things are at present.

The real thing would, of course, be over pretty quick any way. We all like our nukes, after all.