Click-based enemy spotting

[Anton]

There are several events in WinSPWW2 that may render an enemy unit visible during your turn. These are: fire from the enemy, turning or rallying of a unit that overviews the location of the enemy, the approach of another friendly unit. One such event, however, does not fit into the list above because it does not correspond to an action in the game universe.

I mean a mouse click on a unit of yours. It is merely a user-interface event that only selects a unit but does not cause it to do anything. What is the justification of updating the visibility of enemy units within a friendly unit's LOS when the player selects it with the mouse?

In my opinion, enemies should become visible in consequence of true in-game events such as those listed above and may be other ones known to the developers, but not when the player has clicked on a unit, because it is not an in-game event. The current behavior encourages the player to click on all units in sight of the location of the last op-fire in order sooner to discover the firer, which again makes no sense because sequential selection of units does not cause them to do anything in terms of simulated combat.

I wonder what the developers and players think of this mechanic. Attached is a saved game that demonstrates it. Click on unit C1 at hex (44,1) to reveal an enemy at (34,3).

[DRG]

The "problem" is not that clicking on that C1 unit reveals the "hidden" Chinese unit. It's that the "hidden" Chinese unit is not in fact "hidden" it's in a twilight zone grey area between seen and unseen. Start that save up as Computer Vs Computer and press Quit Orders and that Chinese unit at (34,3) starts the Japanese turn in view.

.... and no...... I am not bothered by this rather insignificant issue in the least. Starting that save game as a scenario and checking the units shows some wisps of smoke between the Chinese unit in question (that can affect the Yeah/Nay aspect of revealing units in code) and the Japanese AND it shows that the Chinese unit has used ammo and therefore fired it's slot one weapon which means it's already drawn attention to itself

[Anton]

The "problem" is not that clicking on that C1 unit reveals the "hidden" Chinese unit.No, it is exactly the problem that I am reporting, and I think it is a bug in the game. You don't seem to disagree, for you call it a "rather insignificant issue," too. I, on the other hand, do not find it insignificant because it happens frequently enough to make the clicking on friendly units a useful technique of early spotting of enemies.It's that the "hidden" Chinese unit is not in fact "hidden" it's in a twilight zone grey area between seen and unseen.Well, I did not say it was hidden, only that it was invisible to my units until I clicked on one of them. I was unaware about these twilight zones. Search in the manual for grey and twilight did not reveal anything. Is it documented?

Anyway, I am sure this click-spotting may happen outside the twilight zone as well. Although it is rather tedious to save the game every couple of minutes just to catch this situation, I can do it when time permits.Start that save up as Computer Vs Computer and press Quit Orders and that Chinese unit at (34,3) starts the Japanese turn in view.And what is it supposed to prove?.... and no...... I am not bothered by this rather insignificant issue in the least.As if there were more significant issues to fix before this one?Starting that save game as a scenario and checking the units shows some wisps of smoke between the Chinese unit in question (that can affect the Yeah/Nay aspect of revealing units in code) and the JapaneseI have read about it in the game guide, but it does not say exactly when this visibility check (dice roll) is triggered. Triggering it at unit selection makes no sense, as explained in the initial first post, because it is not a game event and should not affect anything in the combat simulation.AND it shows that the Chinese unit has used ammo and therefore fired it's slot one weapon which means it's already drawn attention to itself
Indeed it has, and opportunity fire is certainly one of the most important factors in revealing enemy positions. What I object to, however, is not this perfectly realistic feature, but the initiation of spotting tests when the user selects a unit.

[anlubue]

For sure you mean well with us all, but I would not need a patch. Don't like? Don't click! My life is complicated enough ;)

[glaude1955]

The work done for many years by members of the Camo group is huge, so please stop the negative remarks. They are unfair and do not improve this wonderful game. And if this game survives for so many years, it is thanks to this group!
Yves

[Anton]

glaude1955, bug reports are not "negative remarks". If didn't like WinSPWW2 and didn't want it it to imptove I would not bother to draw the attention of the community to errors and drawbacks in the game. It is constant praise and ignorance of problems that harms a product by forestalling its improvement, and I mean no harm to WinSPWW2.

[anlubue]

Someone who is regarded as a bean counter at first glance, certainly has a desire to do anything without mistakes. Without the penchant for perfection, one would not be able to see so many mistakes from others.

Why don't you guys do something in common? An upright man from Lille, with a sense of justice. An honest man with a passion for perfection. You two could be a great team! Maybe we can all do something for our favorite game?

(But without Don and Andy. Not because we do not want the two with us, but because they are exhausted. And without the usual:"I believe that, since february 41, the german 47/11 tank had a second MG under his luggage compartment cover. The responsible people should change that instantly, now that I have proven the facts.")

Someone who owns a homepage can show some pictures there and put a link. Maybe another one has something that helps new players?

There are no illustrated tips and tricks PDF's for these games. How should my troops ideally storm this hill, although I only have mortar support? Or maybe a short video where one can experience how to place the air defense most skillfully.

Something that makes you want to see more! (As with some women.)

[Anton]

anlubue, although your post is off-topic in this thread, I am only glad to answer it:Why don't you guys do something in common? An upright man from Lille, with a sense of justice. An honest man with a passion for perfection. You two could be a great team! Maybe we can all do something for our favorite game?I am trying to create a clear and concise reference of WinSPWW2 mechanics. I am currenly stuck with visibility calcuation, because the manual describes only the simplest case of an horisontal LOS, but I have not given up and plan to acquire an understanding through many experiments.(But without Don and Andy. Not because we do not want the two with us, but because they are exhausted. And without the usual:"I believe that, since february 41, the german 47/11 tank had a second MG under his luggage compartment cover. The responsible people should change that instantly, now that I have proven the facts.")I couldn't agree more. My criticism need not be taken as requiring immediate action. A simple acknowledgement and logging of a bug, a drawback, a possible imrovement, a proposal to consider when time permits would suffice. I can wait a year, three years, even five years. I could even help with the programming or at least inspecting and documenting the code, but I know this is problematic for many reasons.Someone who owns a homepage can show some pictures there and put a link. Maybe another one has something that helps new players?I can host a simple HTML page, yes. If you have a how-to or tutorial in clean and plain HTML, I will publish it. Let me know and we can discuss it with everybody in the Mods section.There are no illustrated tips and tricks PDF's for these games. How should my troops ideally storm this hill, although I only have mortar support? Or maybe a short video where one can experience how to place the air defense most skillfully.Althogh it is a step beyond the basic game mechanics, it would also be a useful addtition to the SP universe that might attract more new players.

[anlubue]

I am trying to create a clear and concise reference of WinSPWW2 mechanics.

Fantastic news bro! I wish you the best with this really helpful project. I wanted to write more, but I have to get up early. :up:

[sigeena]

TBH, this is very micro-managing. Usually, if I get return fire and I'm unable to spot with my units. I'll fire some rounds from other units in the vicinity of the suspected hidden unit. Once pinned, they will usually show up.

And the usual suspects are the small size 0 teams. So I'm not too worried in the greater scheme of the battle itself.

[Imp]

This issue has already been addressed to a degree, it’s linked to turning a unit for the same effect which now has the option to create reaction fire and would probably need a complete recode to improve it further.
Borderline visible units may turn up on occasion but it’s no big issue it’s a 3 minute turn.
I assume you had not used the procedure above and fired at the area near the unit causing the situation to change.
This I am guessing is what most of us do.
If not and it’s a game mechanic you wish to exploit feel free, I for one could not be bothered with it and will continue trying to make units visible using the above method.

[Imp]

Most of us I am guessing use the above.
This has been addressed to a large degree, turning a unit did the same thing so you now have the option to make it cause op fire.
How often does it happen without the situation changing?
By that I mean change in the dust cloud morale for either unit, remember morale can change for a lot of factors.
If the sighting unit just saw an enemy tank go bang for example not just suppression.

In the odd case it happens I would guess the dust cloud calculation rounded down instead of up and the unit was borderline on being visible anyway.
Big picture it’s a 3 minute turn they finally noticed something, it’s another random event they are everywhere in this game.

As to trying to exploit it by clicking on my units dream on I have better things to do the updates to this game have allowed me to play faster due to the info available, I could go play slot machines if random clicking was my thing.

[anlubue]

I think similar about it. (But not so thorough.) Especially the unpredictable factor in the game, is a special thrill and with everything that possibly results from it I can cope well.

[Anton]

The "problem" is not that clicking on that C1 unit reveals the "hidden" Chinese unit. It's that the "hidden" Chinese unit is not in fact "hidden" it's in a twilight zone grey area between seen and unseen.Just for the record. If this grey area is a hex shown partially in the dark, then attached is an example with a hex that seems fully visible (29,48). Click on the Japanese unit T0 to reveal a squad of enemy infantry at that location and another at (32,51).

[Anton]

TBH, this is very micro-managing. Usually, if I get return fire and I'm unable to spot with my units. I'll fire some rounds from other units in the vicinity of the suspected hidden unit. Once pinned, they will usually show up.Area-fire with something heavier than rifles, right?
And the usual suspects are the small size 0 teams. So I'm not too worried in the greater scheme of the battle itself.In my experience, it is often the regular infantry of the enemy.This issue has already been addressed to a degree, it’s linked to turning a unit for the same effect which now has the option to create reaction fire and would probably need a complete recode to improve it further.The turning of a unit is an in-game event, which of course may trigger reaction fire and change visibility. That it takes zero MPs is a minor philosophical issue to which I do not object at all. The selection of a unit, on the other hand, is not an in-game event but a user-interface event. It should not affect the state of the game world.Borderline visible units may turn up on occasion but it’s no big issue it’s a 3 minute turn.By the way, from the rate-of-travel I estimate the temporal scale as one minute per half-turn, because if a unit travels a distance of 16 hexes its speed is 30 mph, which yields:16*50/(30*1609)*60*60 = 59.56 (sec)If units are considered stationary during the enemy half-turn, then the full-turn scale is two minutes, but you control your forces only half this time.
I assume you had not used the procedure above and fired at the area near the unit causing the situation to change.
This I am guessing is what most of us do.
If not and it’s a game mechanic you wish to exploit feel free, I for one could not be bothered with it and will continue trying to make units visible using the above method.You mean turning the unit around? No, I do use it, but, as I said above, it is perfectly OK to spot another unit by turning, because that is a physical action that can reveal your unit and even attract reaction fire. This interesting game mechanic has nothing to do with the behavior I report in this thread.As to trying to exploit it by clicking on my units dream on I have better things to do the updates to this game have allowed me to play faster due to the info available, I could go play slot machines if random clicking was my thing.Didn't you say you were turning your units around to spot more enemies? If so, that requires clicking, so you already exploit click-based spotting. And that clicking is not random it all, but a very methodical procedure to update the vision of a unit.

[scorpio_rocks]

Didn't you say you were turning your units around to spot more enemies? If so, that requires clicking, so you already exploit click-based spotting. And that clicking is not random it all, but a very methodical procedure to update the vision of a unit.


Not Necessarily - I almost never click on my units (I use N(ext) and P(revious) to select units)

[Anton]

Not Necessarily - I almost never click on my units (I use N(ext) and P(revious) to select units)The N and P keyboard commands have the same effect as clicking.

[zovs66]

N and P work just fine, it’s how we been playing this for 20 years. Seems most of your grips are just frustrated nit picking which really serve no purpose other than you seem to have an axe to grind.

From my experiences over the last 20 years what your complaining about is minutia that has very little if any effect on play..