Apache helicopter countermeasure

[Roman]

Hello!! What would be the best countermeasure against Apache? Playing with Russia. I will appreciate the answer

[Mobhack]

Get the best AAA gun you can get - ie best EW rating. Depending on period, shika or tungaska. Guns fire several times in a turn, so more opportunities once he is in range.

Same goes for any SAM you buy - get the one with the best EW rating to balance out the Apache's EW.

And of course, if you have attack helos of your own in your core, you can always chase him down with these, firing guns at close range. Especially if he is low in AAA assets, himself so your helos do not get chased with AA as they run after the Apaches.

If you have fixed wing air strikes, then plot these where his choppers are hanging out, one may well decide to take a pop at a helo.

If he likes to sit up in the sky motionless in the hover, your tanks can disabuse him of that notion with an APDS round into his face.

[Roman]

Thanks Mobhack!!

[Suhiir]

There's also something to be said for hordes of MPADs.
4-6 MPADs will make an Apachie think twice about entering their area. Just keep them supplied with missiles.

They may not shoot it down, but they'll keep it at bay.
Just deploy them as a screen (along with infantry) ahead of your armor.

[Roman]

Thanks Suhiir!!

[Mobhack]

Oh - forgot another attack vector if your opponent likes to hover. ATGM from land or helo platforms can engage stationary helos as well so if you have LOS to a hovering helo with one of those platforms, give that a go, and for Russian tube launched gun/missiles - try turning the gun off so the missile in slot 2 fires. ATGM do not care what EW the helo target carries, though the chopper can evade them like tanks do.

Overall though, if the helo is caught in the hover you are probably best using solid shot from an MBT with good FC and laser R/F. No dodge, no EW defence, and if the helo does not evade on a first missed shot, open to another shot.

Bottom line is that helos sitting in the hover are quite vulnerable.

[Suhiir]

Yeah .. catch em in a hover and they're an EZ kill for ATGMs (if they hit)

[Felix Nephthys]

I'm reminded of the scene in Red Dawn where the Russian chopper takes a hit from an RPG. Just out of curiosity since my mind is drawing a blank here tonight, is this same thing possible in game? Many's the time I've caught hell from infantry on the ground because of moving one of my choppers inadvertently into range of their weapons but I don't remember whether or not I had an RPG fired at me.

UPDATE: I tried it out and it's no-go using the RPG against helicopters, now I know. Always best then to keep an Inf-SAM tucked away for those special moments.

[Roman]

In one game I bought an s400 but it didn't kill the Apache. He spent the 4 rounds and then I ran out of ammunition to face about f 35. Is there a way to use filters so that the s400 do not attack helicopters but airplanes? Although I think the optimal thing would be for the s400 to have extra ammunition because they can also take fire from helicopters ...

[Mobhack]

In one game I bought an s400 but it didn't kill the Apache. He spent the 4 rounds and then I ran out of ammunition to face about f 35. Is there a way to use filters so that the s400 do not attack helicopters but airplanes? Although I think the optimal thing would be for the s400 to have extra ammunition because they can also take fire from helicopters ...

Park an ammo truck by it, then it will have resupply.

[DRG]

....and make a juicy target for the Helo.........

[Imp]

AAguns are one of those units I do adjust the range on if attack helicopters are around.
Reduce it so when its your turn you can take several shots at it when they run rather than just 1 or 2 at near max range.
Note units armed with SAM & AA gun like the Tungaska Y key only effects the gun SAMs still fire normally so don't give up much versus planes.

[Suhiir]

I use attack helos a LOT so I keep 2x Ammo Truck in rear and have em fly back to resupply.
Two resupplies faster then one after all.

[Mobhack]

That's another anti-helo measure for PBEM with humans.

If the enemy helos always seem to be going back behind hil 222 and reappearing near there a few turns later, stonk the rear of hill 222 with arty...

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I'm going to "pick up the baton and run with it" concerning the RPG versus the helicopter.

This is not an invitation to advocate we do this in the game for anyone, but ONLY to demonstrate how "CHANCE" intervenes in military operations and even in this game as has been discussed MANY TIMES over the years.

I will use three case studies by way of example and provide the known culprit for at least two of those operations and the likely one for the first one mostly due to the date of the incident.

The "Culprit":
http://www.military-today.com/firearms/rpg_7.htm

"BLACK HAWK Down" with two shootdowns by RPG's. This is probably more personal to me as I was serving at this time and was involved in the "ratcheting up" as events progressed in planning.
https://www.shadowspear.com/2009/04/operation-gothic-serpent/
:/https/www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2018/10/02/the-battle-of-mogadishu-25-years-later-how-the-fateful-fight-changed-combat-operations/
https://history.army.mil/news/2015/150400a_asom.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMMGQxEqpOI

Operation Red Wing: One shootdown by RPG-7 confirmed. Simply not how I wanted to remember my 49th Birthday and that it was the worst day for Naval Special Warfare (NSW) personnel since D-Day. This of course lead to the book and movie "Lone Survivor". If you know the story sometimes not all the "bad guys" are bad guys.
https://special-ops.org/operation-red-wings-darkest-day-history-us-navy-seals/

Extortion 17: One shootdown by 3 RPG-7's confirmed. 1st shot-missed./2nd shot-kill shot/3rd-not mentioned. Unfortunately the "Sports World" isn't the only place "records are broken" as what happened to Extortion 17, would eclipse "Operation Red Wing" for the NSW Community. It's still their worst to date.
https://www.history.com/news/the-costliest-day-in-seal-team-six-history
https://www.newsweek.com/extortion-17-seal-team-six-navy-seals-afghanistan-conspiracy-theories-names-657841

Maybe we should be thankful we can't use them that way. But the common theme here as unfortunate as it is, they where troop transport helos and in the case of Operation Red Wing outran their APACHE escorts in the attempt to save the team on the ground.

Some people run to the fire and others wait for the fire trucks.

I never considered doing that with artillery but then neither has the AI in my experience. :D

Player vs. Player that might have some advantages there. :p

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Mobhack]

If helos get close enough to infantry they can fire at them - assume that if the infantry fire does a lot of damage that an RPG may have been part of the response.

It has also been a while, but I seem to recollect that a landed chopper is a soft target like a truck for ground weapons. So an RPG team if in range could splat such as it is landing troops. But if landing infantry inside RPG range of defenders, something has gone pear-shaped anyway for the choppers..

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Andy I do believe you are correct. I seem to remember working an APACHE LONGBOW (AH-64D) behind enemy lines on a scouting and interdiction op. It had taken some light ground fire that was starting to suppress the crew, so I figured that while I still had "control" of it I'd find a safe place to set it down.

I took a couple of turns to bring the "morale" up on the crew which worked. I remember that after being on the ground for 3 to 4 turns, it'd be ready to lift off again with enough ammo left to extract it via "terrain masking" back to my lines and resupply on my next turn.

Well the AI had other ideas, on it's intervening turn when from across the clearing comes an ATGW, as they say "So much for the plans of Mice and Men". Obviously an ATGW Team moving forward to join the main battle just happened upon the clearing with this beautiful target just sitting there.

CHANCE don't we talk about that a lot out here?

I really believe and act upon that belief, when you're operating with more than a couple of troop carrying helos, you should (I do.) seriously give thought to getting yourself at least one or better a pair of Armed Scout or AH helos to lead the way and find a path through. Also once you land your assault troops they have some added "organic" fire support for as long as they can stay on station.

I've harped on this for many many years now, but, all those assets will be wasted if the player cannot be patient enough to "terrain mask" those helos for as long as possible until they arrive at the "LZ" to start your mission.

Nothing is achieved easily without you being willing to work hard in achieving your goal. Terrain masking can be hard work, it's time consuming and it requires you to "remember where you've been to get where you want to go", if you follow my meaning here.

But that's RL/RW tactics that have proven their worth over decades of combat helicopter operations.

Alright might get some tank news in or I just might sit on my donkey and enjoy the my weekend, only time will tell.

Artillery on the backside of a hill against helos, really, I might have to target one I know is lurking there, who knows I might even hit something of value if CHANCE allows like the AI HQ group!! :cool:

Good Night!!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Felix Nephthys]

If helos get close enough to infantry they can fire at them - assume that if the infantry fire does a lot of damage that an RPG may have been part of the response.

It has also been a while, but I seem to recollect that a landed chopper is a soft target like a truck for ground weapons. So an RPG team if in range could splat such as it is landing troops. But if landing infantry inside RPG range of defenders, something has gone pear-shaped anyway for the choppers..

It seems that for an RPG shot against a helicopter it does in fact have to be landed, otherwise the RPG unit will only fire their rifles or machine gun at it.

[Suhiir]

Artillery on the backside of a hill against helos, really, I might have to target one I know is lurking there, who knows I might even hit something of value if CHANCE allows like the AI HQ group!!
I use this vs the AI a lot.

I put my attack helos behind a hill or in a clearing in woods at low altitude then "pop up" to high altitude and fire (the elevation change doesn't seem to effect the ROF). After doing this for two turns I relocate somewhere at least 6 hexes away from the previous location staying out of LOS if at all possible. The AI, not having seen the helo relocate will often fire mortars/artillery at the previous location allowing my off-board artillery/MLRS to counter-battery or me to plot on-board mortars wherever the smoke puffs from firing appear.

[Roman]

I have already tried with Tunguska and Pantsyr which have EW 8 and 9. The Apache has EW 8.

[rel19]

The best way to tackle Apache is to set its Armour to 2 and size to 3 or 4 with Mobhack OOB Editor. This get Apache back from fantasy to more realistic model in game.

[DRG]

I agree the size probably should be a 3 but not a 4. The Mi-24 is a 4 and the Apache is not as bulky as the 24 but I don't know if I agree the armour should be reduced to 2 without some further input

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

After researching and submitting the APACHE AH-64E GUARDIAN my vote is NO to reducing it's armor. I went to great lengths to make the case in the refs supplied. See Fastboat Patch Page Thread/Pg. 13/Post #123.

The rotor blades can withstand hits from 23mm AA/Engine cowling the same/Rest of the airframe from 12.mm with the canopy (nose/cockpit area further protected with BORAN Armor.

See para 5...
https://www.globaldefencenews.com/ah-64e-apache-attack-helicopters-of-us/
http://www.military-today.com/helicopters/ah_64e.htm

No better armored helicopter exists in world that can match a Hind, but the APACHE isn't that bad either besides being faster and more nimble.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

POST SCRIPT: My early "armor" references look "dead" it was mostly discussed in the DID (404 CODE.) and DEFPRO sites. That's why I added the above sites.

Just checked OOB how does the AH-64E have the same armor numbers then the UNIT 936 AH-64D (Which I recommended for modeling purposes to make the "E".)? Except just looking back to my submission, I didn't make any armor upgrade recommendation it seems. :doh:

[Imp]

The best way to tackle Apache is to set its Armour to 2 and size to 3 or 4 with Mobhack OOB Editor. This get Apache back from fantasy to more realistic model in game.

The trouble with well armoured helicopters is they shrug off SAM hits to often if you are going to adjust anything it should be the SAM. Bigger warhead possibly like ATGMs which always cause damage if its stationary.
Reducing the armour makes AA guns & infantry fire to effective.

As to RPG use against them its so rare & only happens if the helo is loitering I would not want it in game.

A possible solution to the SAM armour problem would be to have SAMs apply damage in 2 stages. Does the initial calculation but then adds 1 damage all or most of the time to reflect the fact it did not escape unscathed.

[rel19]

Armour 4 gives to helo ability to ignore hits of AA gun with caliber 20-mm and 30-mm. This is like magic shield when elves fight chaos horde in fantasy universe. In warm tube Steel Panthers this is wrong I suppose. So I have set armour to 2. It is enough for protection from 12.7 mm bullets.

[Suhiir]

Unfortunately due to the way armor works in WinSPMBT heat seeking anti-air missiles can't just ignore armor so MPADs tend to be fairly ineffective vs armored attack helos.

It's just "one of those things" you'll find in any game.

[Karagin]

Unfortunately due to the way armor works in WinSPMBT heat seeking anti-air missiles can't just ignore armor so MPADs tend to be fairly ineffective vs armored attack helos.

It's just "one of those things" you'll find in any game.

The MPADs do tend to chase off the Helicopters both armed and unarmed or so has been my experience in the game. Nothing like do the short moves and hit the range and sights of an MPAD and now my chopper is doing all this weird move to get the hell out there after a near miss. Fun times.

[rel19]

Helicopters size comparison:

https://www.yaplakal.com/forum2/topic1688851.html

https://s01.yapfiles.ru/files/1793327/comparaisontaillehelicoptere.jpg

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

To Johns point...
Russian view of the STRINGER during the Afghan war in the late 80"s. If they were looking for them, it must've been because they weren't that effective against their aircraft or helicopters. Why else look for them in the first place-right? :rolleyes:
https://www.rbth.com/history/329988-why-soviets-look-for-stingers

I guess from our side...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1989/07/05/stingers-were-key-weapon-in-afghan-war-army-finds/d25f1e11-216a-417d-9d8e-a8e74ca34020/
https://www.businessinsider.com/32-year-anniversary-of-first-stinger-missile-use-in-afghanistan-2018-9
https://foreignpolicy.com/2010/07/28/stop-panicking-about-the-stingers/


Ukraine in 2014...
https://theaviationist.com/2014/05/02/hinds-shot-down-donetsk/

And finally something much more recent from FEB. 2021 article...
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/gunship-down-how-azerbaijan-shot-down-russian-mi-24-hind-helicopter-178185
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/37512/russian-mi-24-hind-gunship-shot-down-in-armenia-near-border-with-azerbaijan

The USA as reported by one of refs above, estimated that the STRINGER 1 (If you will.) had a 79% success rate against aerial targets (370 confirmed kills.) in the Soviet Afghan War.

Helicopters or even Jets of that time when forced to operate above the ceiling of the missiles just weren't as effective against the Mujahedeen.

It is important to remember there were other factors that lead to the Soviet withdrawal, Russians were growing weary of the war, economic issues at home and from aboard (We were on our way to a 600 ship Navy, not to mention all the "toys" the other services were getting at the time as well.)

Oh boy!! Really late-off to bed. Somebodies going back to work later this afternoon!! :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Mobhack]

It may well be that the armour factor on flying thingies rejects too much damage. It may be code or it might be that OOB designers were too "enthusiastic":) with the protection values assigned - SSI may have designed the game to only use 1 or 2 armour points and the larger numbers were not supposed to happen - I vaguely recall that things tended to be 1 or 2 maybe 3 in the old SSI oobs, armour-wise.

Some time this summmer I think I will look at the formula for air unit armour and how it actually works. Easier to tweak the formula than change hundreds of OOB units and then massage a zillion scenarios. (I vaguely recollect that its based on the weapon WH size vs armour value, been a few years since I last looked, mind).

It may be a simple thing like giving SAMs a chance on WH size or kill value perhaps, to ignore armour value on hitting or to "boost" the local WH size a bit inside the existing formula if it is a SAM hit.

Meanwhile - the best way I have found to kill armoured gunships in the game is to cath the little beasties in the hover and zap them with either a tank gun shot or an ATGM, That probably uses a different hit code than the Flak code. So the "problem" probably lies in the Flak routine (an HE hit) rather than in the hard target hit code (AP or HEAT etc).

Meanwhile - feel free to post your views up here and see if there is any consensus e.g. "SAM and Flak, too wimpy but AP shots are just fine on armoured aircraft".

[Suhiir]

While I don't have access to the game code from in-game experience I find that armor 1 makes helos pretty resistant (but not immune) to small arms, 2 most MMGs, 3 VERY difficult to damage with MPADs and 20mmish AA, 4 essentially immune to MPADs and smaller AA because when you hit you generally get zero damage.

And that seems "correct", the Hind and Apache are designed and armored to be essentially immune to small caliber AA.

It may not be an "armor absorption" issue but rather one with how explosive damage is calculated/applied.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Good point, though the HIND and APACHE GUARDIAN (And note the distinction here.) are in a very exclusive club for helos, they not the only members. That being said overall, it's a very small club.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[rel19]

Easier to tweak the formula than change hundreds of OOB units and then massage a zillion scenarios.


I am puzzled why you have not automated the editing of unit entries?
There is "Write CSV files" command in the OOB Editor. You could make united data base of all units in the game, process it with SQL scripts and after that map it into OOB files.

[DRG]

Because we discovered very early on it is way too easy for people to enter bad data in error that has cascade knock-off effects in the game so any write back code was removed but we don't use it and the " Why doesn't this work" question only pops up once in a while.

I have suggested it be put back in in the past and was given the same reminder.

I do more OOB work than anyone and I can live with it as it is.

We were burnt once and don't need a repeat

[rel19]

Because we discovered very early on it is way too easy for people to enter bad data

You could use that "dangerous" tool by yourself not providing it to customers.
I got the understanding that you hate operation of OOB bases so automation is much more useful.

[DRG]

If I wanted to I would have years ago. It's a non issue the write back will not be brought back

[Mobhack]

Because we discovered very early on it is way too easy for people to enter bad data

You could use that "dangerous" tool by yourself not providing it to customers.
I got the understanding that you hate operation of OOB bases so automation is much more useful.

We deleted the import CSV file because it allows people to dump a lot of unveriviable data in the OOBs, as Don says we got bitten in the derriere by that in the past.

We have developed our own utility to extract mass data into a database to be able to run SQL queries and find stuff, compare things and so on.


Select U.NationID,N.NationName,U.name,U.slot,u.SteelHullf ront,u.steelhullside,u.steelhullrear,u.steelturret front,u.steelturretside,u.steelturretrear,u.steelt op
from Units U, NationNames N
where ( ( LOWER(U.name) like "%centurion%") OR (LOWER(U.name) like "%semel%")
OR (LOWER(U.name) like "%olifant%") OR (LOWER(U.name) like "%sh'ot%")
OR (LOWER(U.name) like "%pz%%55%") OR (LOWER(U.name) like "%pz%%57%")
OR (LOWER(U.name) like "%strv%%81%") OR (LOWER(U.name) like "%strv%%101%") OR (LOWER(U.name) like "%strv%%102%") OR (LOWER(U.name) like "%strv%%104%")
OR (LOWER(U.name) like "%tariq%"))
AND U.nationID=n.nationID
order by u.steelhullfront


That one compares armour suites on centurions. (and of course is properly tabbed in the original, the forum quote tool buggers formatting).

Of course we do do mass changes to OOB data but not by the route of csv importing, which is wide open to abuse. I write little 'robot' programs in C++ which can be verified in order to update specific items. Those are checked, used, then the results checked.

There is thus no need to teach us how to suck eggs, we have been at this gig 20 odds years, now.:)

These tools are of course in-house things that won't be published externally.

But the end users will never be given the CSV import tool to abuse again because it caused so much damage to us before.

[rel19]

The rotor blades can withstand hits from 23mm AA/Engine cowling the same/Rest of the airframe from 12.mm with the canopy (nose/cockpit area further protected with BORAN Armor.


All these improvements are taken into account in high Durability value of Apache as I understand.

By the way, Hind has fair Armour 2 and thats why it has not got reputation of unbreakable in the game.