Creating African scenarios

[Artaud]

I have been trying to create scenarios in Niger (one of my favorite countries) and Mali. Mainly internal security conflicts. But I'm having trouble putting forces together.

For example, I know how the army of Niger is structured, and I know they use the Panhard M3 APC (among others), but I don't see the Panhard represented in either the generic red or green orders of battle.

Has anyone else tried to create scenarios dealing with African conflicts? If so, how do you do it?

[Suhiir]

One thing you can do is find stuff in other OOBs and buy it as "Captured". Works for making scenarios.

[Mobhack]

Thread moved to the correct forum.

As Suhir said, you can use the allies function to buy things as captured.

France, Kenya or Nigeria versus Mujadeen will generate batlocs appropriate to the various OPFOR warlords (Sahel, West Africa, South Sudan, Nothern Nigeria etc).

[retiredgysgt]

I am curious what opponents to use against South Africa? During the wars there.

[Mobhack]

I generally use Cuba there in the times of the border wars. That gives southern African and Namibian desert batlocs.

The Cuba-SADF wars work as a campaign, out of the box - I usually try it one way or the other once a year or so. Usually 75+-85.

[troopie]

I am curious what opponents to use against South Africa? During the wars there.

Cuba and Angola. Use Red with my African Insurgents if you're doing before Angolan Independence.

troopie

[retiredgysgt]

I want to play the South Africans if I use red forces I get to many Tanks.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

We talked about "Gunships" being a "niche" item ~3 weeks back, well so are many of the countries in the game.

I'll have some items for African countries I need to work on but, in general equipment issues or that part of the world isn't covered as thoroughly as say Europe, North America or Asia by most websites.

You've been given a couple of good options, however, as far staying on top of what's going on in Africa and their military's to be able to build "reliable" OOB's, beyond what we have in them already may I suggest the following:
1) www.defenceweb.co.za All Africa all the time. Very reliable overall. On the "NAV BAR" you can click on "News By Country" every African country is represented there.

Also you can click on "Resources" then "AFRICAN MILITARIES" listing both equipment and quantities of each. Pretty much kept up-to-date.

2) I don't "leave home" without it...
https://www.sipri.org/databases/armstransfers
http://armstrade.sipri.org/armstrade/page/trade_register.php

Build away with confidence.

Half the battle is having the right resources to start the project. The rest is up to the individual. ;)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Mobhack]

I want to play the South Africans if I use red forces I get to many Tanks.

Then use a modified RED - as troopie suggested, you can use his (in the mods forum, I think?)

Or, make your own mod - e.g. save RED or ANGOLA OOB to a zip file and edit the formatios, replacing tank platoons and companies with rifle formations of equivalent size.

[Artaud]

I have always wished there were some scenarios featuring Cuban expeditionary forces in Africa during the various wars of liberation, or during the Ogaden War between Ethiopia and Somalia in the late 1970s. I have read a couple of very good books on the Ethiopian-Somalia conflict.

I also wish there were some scenarios on the various guerilla operations against Rhodesia and South Africa, from the point of view of the guerilla armies.

Maybe I need to get to work creating some scenarios myself!

[scorpio_rocks]

Maybe I need to get to work creating some scenarios myself!


I would LOVE to see Ogaden War scenarios!

I did, quite recently, play through a generated campaign with Cuba (Somalia and Mujahideen as opponents),

[retiredgysgt]

Went all the way to 2013 on the OOB list can not find an alternate red OOB.

[troopie]

Went all the way to 2013 on the OOB list can not find an alternate red OOB.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14440&d=1472686962

Here's one from 2016. I'll have to update when I have the time.

troopie

[retiredgysgt]

Went all the way to 2013 on the OOB list can not find an alternate red OOB.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14440&d=1472686962

Here's one from 2016. I'll have to update when I have the time.

troopie

If all it is is red it should be ok for South African in the 70's and 80's I don't general use red much

[Artaud]

Went all the way to 2013 on the OOB list can not find an alternate red OOB.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14440&d=1472686962

Here's one from 2016. I'll have to update when I have the time.

troopie

If all it is is red it should be ok for South African in the 70's and 80's I don't general use red much

Do you mean playing as South Africa, or playing as guerillas operating against South Africa? I have no desire to play as South Africa or Rhodesia in the 1970s.

I have played around with creating a battle between African forces by using the "captured" mechanism. A big thank you to the person who suggested this. It makes this great game even more flexible.

[troopie]

When doing Rhodesia battles in the 1970s increase the points by causing casualties and decrease the victory hex points. Missions were (for the guerrillas, destroying bridges, mining roads and killing farmers and government troops) and (for the government troops, clearing roads, protecting farmers, saving bridges and killing guerrillas.)

troopie

[Artaud]

Maybe I need to get to work creating some scenarios myself!


I would LOVE to see Ogaden War scenarios!

I did, quite recently, play through a generated campaign with Cuba (Somalia and Mujahideen as opponents),

There are a couple of good books about the Somalia-Ethiopia conflict(s), by either Ethiopian or Somali scholars, I forget which. One of them provides rather good information on Cuban involvement. I will have to dig around and see if I can recall the names of those books.

When researching African conflicts I tend to rely on sources produced by African scholars. With a very few exceptions.

[retiredgysgt]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14440&d=1472686962

Here's one from 2016. I'll have to update when I have the time.

troopie

If all it is is red it should be ok for South African in the 70's and 80's I don't general use red much

Do you mean playing as South Africa, or playing as guerillas operating against South Africa? I have no desire to play as South Africa or Rhodesia in the 1970s.

I have played around with creating a battle between African forces by using the "captured" mechanism. A big thank you to the person who suggested this. It makes this great game even more flexible.

Yes I want to play Rhodesia or South Africa in the 70's. How is that any different from playing Germany or Japan in WW2? Rhodesia is an interesting side to play, their forces are generally weak and poorly equipped. They make up for that with good moral and experience.

[Imp]

Okay now I am completely confused both South Africa & Rhodesia have OOB's Rhodesia ends in 1980 as it ceased to exist but that covers your time frame. So why are you looking at Red when you have the correct OOB's?

If your saying South Africa buys to much armour either set them to human purchase & buy what you want for the AI.
or
Try modifying South African OOB removing most armour formations & see if that works. Need to test never tried.
The game should have a backup OOB to restore the original but make a copy before modifying if you like.

[retiredgysgt]

No If I choose Rhodesia all the options to fight have to many tanks. The Rhodesian forces don't really have good anti tank equipment. As South Africa I have tanks so that's ok.

I prefer to play either Rhodesia or South Africa. Though with the new orbit for the game I may choose to fight them from Red )

[Mobhack]

Looking at a 1974 test buy on 3500 points, then the Moxambiqans bought a whole 12 T34-85 in amongst a sea of grunts, with a few ZSU-57-2 as well.

If that is too much armourfor you, then back up a copy of the OOB and replace the SPAAA platoon and tank platoon with say a rifle platoon each?

(The Rhodesian infantry had 3 energa AT rifle grenades each team, they have 106mm jeeps, the maps are close country and so it should not be too difficult to deal with the old WW2 surplus tanks, IMHO. Especially 78 onwards when you have RPG-7s availabe)

[Imp]

If you don't follow advice given & use Red it will play very differently South Africa is one of the most experienced sides in Africa Red has poor experience.
If you want a none tank opponent for Rhodesia with experience around 70 like SA go for.
Ethiopia or Eretria they are always fighting & have few or no tanks if I remember correctly in the 70s or the UN.

[retiredgysgt]

I do appreciate the advice I just don't feel confident doing changes myself.

[Imp]

Follow the above advice then try those nations.
However it is quite simple if your not confident copy the whole MBT folder to another one.
Create a shortcut & rename it backup or whatever.
Use this copy to try modifying so your original install is safe.
Misc tab > turn Show ID Numbers ON #
Utilities tab > Mobhack OOB editor > Formations
Select the correct OOB > Press open & swap the tank ones for something different.
Save any changes after you make them.

# You can turn it off after this just shows the ID number of the formation/units.
So if the tank formation is ID 20 you just scroll to ID 20 & change it.
its fairly straight forward & if yo cannot figure it out just delete the backup installation.

[DRG]

No If I choose Rhodesia all the options to fight have to many tanks. The Rhodesian forces don't really have good anti tank equipment. As South Africa I have tanks so that's ok.

I prefer to play either Rhodesia or South Africa. Though with the new orbit for the game I may choose to fight them from Red )


Are you playing a generated battle or a campaign? If it's a generated battle the solution is to manually buy for the AI but let it deploy. Yes, you will know exactly what you are up against but you won't know where it will be.

[retiredgysgt]

I like campaigns but really I enjoy buying the force more then playing the game LOL. But when I try to play ya it is a problem.

[wulfir]

I like campaigns but really I enjoy buying the force more then playing the game LOL. But when I try to play ya it is a problem.

Can you give us some more detail on this African campaign...?

I'm thinking number of build points, map size, length etc...

[Artaud]

Ethiopia or Eretria they are always fighting & have few or no tanks if I remember correctly in the 70s or the UN.

If you are talking about the fighting after Eritrean independence there definitely were tanks involved. There were also modern jets, at least on the Ethiopian side. Both countries spent a great deal of money on modern equipment.

[Imp]

Ethiopia or Eretria they are always fighting & have few or no tanks if I remember correctly in the 70s or the UN.

If you are talking about the fighting after Eritrean independence there definitely were tanks involved. There were also modern jets, at least on the Ethiopian side. Both countries spent a great deal of money on modern equipment.

Could not remember which but Eretria does not get tanks till early 80's

[Artaud]

Ethiopia or Eretria they are always fighting & have few or no tanks if I remember correctly in the 70s or the UN.

If you are talking about the fighting after Eritrean independence there definitely were tanks involved. There were also modern jets, at least on the Ethiopian side. Both countries spent a great deal of money on modern equipment.

Could not remember which but Eretria does not get tanks till early 80's

After a protracted guerilla war against various Ethiopian governments, Eritrea officially became independent in 1993 under the leadership of the Eritrean People's Liberation Front. The war between independent Eritrea and Ethiopia began in 1998. There are various reasons war broke out, but I'm inclined to think it was very much a personal issue between the Eritrean and Ethiopian leaders.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Since Eretria's independence according to SIPRI, from "All" suppliers going back to 1975(CYA :D), the only armor they bought was from Bulgaria all ordered and received in 2005. The order was for 10 LM-BT and 120 T-55 tanks second hand.

Combat aircraft: Russia...
MiG-29S FGA aircraft 1998 1998 No. could be up to 10; incl 2 MiG-29UB

(2) MiG-29S FGA aircraft (2001) 2001 2

(2) MiG-29SMT/Fulcrum-F FGA aircraft (2002) 2004 2 No. could be 4

Ukraine...
(2) Su-27S/Flanker-B FGA aircraft (2002) 2002-2003 2 Second-hand

They also received several training aircraft, handful of attack and transport helos, artillery and SAM systems to include MANPADS from several different countries.

So whatever else they got before, came from Ethiopia by whatever means.

II hadn't the time (Work!) to check the database to see what equipment they might have received for their "Popular Front" movement, yes
SIPRI covers them as well to some extent.

I'm well acquitted about their sources which is why I use them as a equipment check, especially on "questionable" equipment items. That's all well detailed on their site.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Artaud]

The EPLF captured a great deal of equipment from the Ethiopian military during the years of fighting, up to and including the final battles against the Derg. If I remember correctly, during the final stages of the war against the Derg, the EPLF and the Ethiopian anti-Derg forces successfully switched over to conventional tactics and weaponry, sealing the regime's fate.

Following the defeat of the Derg, Ethiopia expected the Eritreans to behave like little brothers and continue some sort of federation with Ethiopia. The Eritreans thought the Ethiopians insufficiently grateful, because without the EPLF the war could not have been won.

Because of its ethnic, territorial, political and personal aspects, the Ethiopian-Eritrean conflict is a fascinating one. I remember foreign observers calling it "Africa's first modern war." It was reported that the two sides were spending hundreds of millions of dollars on military hardware, although there was a great deal of Soviet equipment left over by the old Ethiopian army.

Eritrea is my second favorite African country. It's just a really interesting place.

I'm surprised that there has been so little interest in this conflict among wargamers. But it is what it is.

[DRG]

scenario 0128 - 128 Cry Havoc 6/98 is the only Eritrean- Ethiopian one we have

Try building a scenario..... then post it here. It can be exact if you have exact details or an attempt to recreat the battle in a more general way

[Artaud]

scenario 0128 - 128 Cry Havoc 6/98 is the only Eritrean- Ethiopian one we have


Thank you. I didn't know that.

Try building a scenario..... then post it here. It can be exact if you have exact details or an attempt to recreate the battle in a more general way

I will try. The war was, of course, covered extensively in African magazines and in scholarly journals to which African experts contributed. In my opinion the BBC also did a decent job.

I remember reading somewhere a really detailed article about the initial fighting in and around the town of Badme.

[MarkSheppard]

Through
https://armstrade.sipri.org/armstrade/page/trade_register.php
https://kplanes.tumblr.com/post/140035219215/k-planes-episode-94-cripple-fight

I made some notes for the 1977 Ogaden War with Somalia

########################

OBAT 063 - ETHIOPIA

New Units
25 x PT-76 in 1977-78
100 x BTR-40 in 1977-78
10 x ZSU-57-2 arrived 1977-78
35 x BMD-1 in 1977.
35 x ASU-57 in 1977.

Both the BMD-1s and ASU-57s were given to Cuban troops in Ethiopia, and used in a helicopter lifted (Mi-6) assault on Somalian troops in March 1978 where troops and the vehicles were airlifted into the enemy's rear; and then in conjunction with a conventional Cuban armored thrust, caught Somalian troops at Jijiga in a pincer movement.

Changes

Unit 011 T-62 has a start date of 1985
20 x T-62 were delivered in 1977 and another 50 in 1980.

########################

OBAT 088 SOMALIA

New Units
4 x IL-28 in 1965-67
7 x IL-28 in 1973-75

All were destroyed in the war by 1978.

[DRG]

Through
https://armstrade.sipri.org/armstrade/page/trade_register.php
https://kplanes.tumblr.com/post/140035219215/k-planes-episode-94-cripple-fight

I made some notes for the 1977 Ogaden War with Somalia

########################

OBAT 063 - ETHIOPIA

New Units
25 x PT-76 in 1977-78
100 x BTR-40 in 1977-78
10 x ZSU-57-2 arrived 1977-78
35 x BMD-1 in 1977.
35 x ASU-57 in 1977.

Both the BMD-1s and ASU-57s were given to Cuban troops in Ethiopia, and used in a helicopter lifted (Mi-6) assault on Somalian troops in March 1978 where troops and the vehicles were airlifted into the enemy's rear; and then in conjunction with a conventional Cuban armored thrust, caught Somalian troops at Jijiga in a pincer movement.

Changes

Unit 011 T-62 has a start date of 1985
20 x T-62 were delivered in 1977 and another 50 in 1980.

########################

OBAT 088 SOMALIA

New Units
4 x IL-28 in 1965-67
7 x IL-28 in 1973-75

All were destroyed in the war by 1978.


In future, any OOB change selections need to be in the OOB section not this one.

The end dates for the Somali additions are clear enough but I have been unable to dig out end dates for the Ethiopian so if you or anyone else has some that would be helpful