Ukraine 2021(?)

[MarkSheppard]

So, in case you've missed it all, there's a HUGE military buildup going on in the Ukraine and on Russia's borders near Ukraine.

According to a Ukrainian journalist, a naval order has been issued by Russia banning ships from foreign countries in the Kerch Strait heading for the Sea of Azov from April 24 due to military exercises.

...

New: Current & former officials say there are no geographic restrictions on the deployment of the Javelin missiles Ukraine purchased from the U.S., and argue that Kyiv would be justified in moving the weapons to the frontlines amid Russia's buildup

...

Russian Minister of Defence Shoigu: "two armies and three VDV formations were deployed to the western borders of Russia to carry out combat training tasks as part of a combat readiness test." (RIA)

...


Ukraine's military intelligence (testimony to the parliament): Russia will complete its troop deployment at Ukraine's borders around 20 April, with up to 110 thousand troops.

For context: it's almost half of active personnel in Ukraine's entire Armed Forces

...


Signs are going up in the Russian camps that roughly translate to "Hard training makes the combat easy".

...

The 559th Fighter Bomber Aviation Regiment, equipped with SU-34 jets, has been deployed to the Black Sea region.

...

There's videos of everything being moved around -- there's an Ukrainian convoy near Mariupol on Youtube this morning with T-64B1Ms, BTR-3s, BTR-4 and MT-LB-ZU-23s in the convoy. People seem to think it's the Azov Regiment.

I know there's no scenario here (yet), but it's a placeholder thread. I'll try to have something, but I am juggling a lot of plates now. :cold:

[MarkSheppard]

To give you an idea of the equippage of the Donetsk People's Republic (DPR), here's a few shots from a concert given for 1 AC (DPR) troops a few days ago:

https://denis-pushilin.ru/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Koncert_130421-17.jpg
https://denis-pushilin.ru/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Koncert_130421-18.jpg
https://denis-pushilin.ru/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Koncert_130421-21.jpg
https://denis-pushilin.ru/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Koncert_130421-19.jpg
https://denis-pushilin.ru/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Koncert_130421-4.jpg

Things to note: Others have noticed the lack of fancy optics (IR etc) for the BMPs, and lack of anti-RPG grates for the BMPs; giving you an idea of the level of tech quality Donetsk People's Republic troops have.

[MarkSheppard]

This is a simple assault scenario. I haven't playtested it that throroughly; so don't invest too much of your time to it. If you're having difficulties; just quit and let me know if it's too hard or whatnot.

Operatsiya Polina, Feb 2022

Russia Assault
_____vs.
Ukraine Defend

Date: February 22, 2022
Location: Ovruch, Ukraine

===========================

This is a future-what-if scenario.

With the closing of the Beijing Winter Olympics on 20 February 2022, there was no longer any reason for Russia to maintain the pretexts behind their buildup along the border with Ukraine. Accordingly, at midnight on 22 February 2022, Operation Polina was launched.

This scenario is set several hours into the invasion. The 155th Naval Infantry Brigade, having pushed past Ukrainian Border Guards several hours earlier, reaches the first lines of major Ukrainian resistance just as the sun begins to rise.

Here, the Russian Marines' motto of "There, Where We Go, There is Victory!" would be tested.

[Crueldwarf]

For whatever reason I do not have victory locations displayed or placed in this scenario.

[MarkSheppard]

For whatever reason I do not have victory locations displayed or placed in this scenario.

:doh:

I knew I was forgetting something.

[Karagin]

This is a simple assault scenario. I haven't playtested it that throroughly; so don't invest too much of your time to it. If you're having difficulties; just quit and let me know if it's too hard or whatnot.

Operatsiya Polina, Feb 2022

Russia Assault
_____vs.
Ukraine Defend

Date: February 22, 2022
Location: Ovruch, Ukraine

===========================

This is a future-what-if scenario.

With the closing of the Beijing Winter Olympics on 20 February 2022, there was no longer any reason for Russia to maintain the pretexts behind their buildup along the border with Ukraine. Accordingly, at midnight on 22 February 2022, Operation Polina was launched.

This scenario is set several hours into the invasion. The 155th Naval Infantry Brigade, having pushed past Ukrainian Border Guards several hours earlier, reaches the first lines of major Ukrainian resistance just as the sun begins to rise.

Here, the Russian Marines' motto of "There, Where We Go, There is Victory!" would be tested.


The Ukrainian ATGMs are doing an amazing job of stopping the Russian's dead cold, three run-throughs, and three times I have lost more APC/Armor to Javelins, etc...than I think I have seen happen before.

Also, the onboard artillery stays in a set fire pattern for several turns and doesn't show up in the bombardment artillery control window to allow me to adjust things forward or pick new areas for them. I have to move them to regain control.

Snowdrifts are a ton of fun at stopping things as well since trying to keep the woods between the armor and the ATGM teams sounded like a grand idea...and then I meet snowdrifts.

[MarkSheppard]

The Ukrainian ATGMs are doing an amazing job of stopping the Russian's dead cold, three run-throughs, and three times I have lost more APC/Armor to Javelins, etc...than I think I have seen happen before.

I might need to "dial back" the Javelin teams a bit, whether in reducing their numbers or their morale/experience...or adding more Russian artillery.

Also, the onboard artillery stays in a set fire pattern for several turns and doesn't show up in the bombardment artillery control window to allow me to adjust things forward or pick new areas for them. I have to move them to regain control.

That's my fault. I tried programming in a pre-programmed barrage to try and keep the Ukrainians suppressed. I guess do a turn 0 Bombardment and then leave it up to the player?

[Karagin]

Not sure about the need to reduce their numbers, the morale/experience side might be better to go with.

The Russian artillery...tricky, having them blast away is good, but not being able to adjust once you get close to the trenches and such, yeah I am not big on Friendly Fire.

Maybe split the SP Arty into some onboard and some offboard with the offboard being the continuous firing set.

[Crueldwarf]

Funnily enough I had entirely opposite experience with Ukrainian ATGM teams when I started scenario as Ukrainians. They launched like a dozen Javelins in op-fires during Russian first turn and hit only three times. Killing two BMP-3s and lightly damaging another.

[DRG]

Funnily enough I had entirely opposite experience with Ukrainian ATGM teams when I started scenario as Ukrainians. They launched like a dozen Javelins in op-fires during Russian first turn and hit only three times. Killing two BMP-3s and lightly damaging another.

That could be the result of movement or suppression before opfire...... OR......the games random number generator playing "GOTCHA" with you.

Build a simple sceanrio. You have one tank, the AI gets 1 ATG or ATGM depending on the year

Deploy the AT gun / ATGM team so that it has clear LOF to a roadway say about 6-8 hexes away from it with an ATG and maybe a bit further with the ATGM team.

Place the tank on the road just out of LOS of the AT gun

Save the scenario

Start the scenario...... move your tank down that road.

In a test I ran a few times, each time generated a different result


one was a miss
one was a kill, nobody got out
One tripped the Smoke dischargers
one was a kill, everybody got out
one was a miss on the first shot and a kill on the second and only 3 crew bailed
one was hit with one * damage
The last time I ran it I took a different path. The ATG fired and hit no effect, then the tank and the ATG got into an exchange of shots that ended that turn with no effect on either. At the start of the next turn it was more exchange of shots but the tank eventually scored a kill.............c'est le guerre



It would be very, very rare to replay a turn and have the same thing happen over and over. That was the way the game was designed from the start and we have reinforced that behaviour so two people doing the same thing getting different results is normal.

[MarkSheppard]

I think a scenario like this shows WHY the Russians went with the BMP-3's armament.

It seems all so crazy -- 100mm low pressure gun AND a 30mm autocannon for an IFV.

But then you realize a T-90 only really has about 22 rounds ready; and if you're assaulting a dug in infantry position like in this scenario; those 22 rounds of 125mm run out fast, especially if you're reserving ammunition for anti-tank work.

By contrast, the BMP-3 has about 40 rounds of 100mm and 500 rounds of 30mm; meaning that the BMP-3 can "escort" the T-90, with the T-90s going ahead to take the hits the BMP-3 can't, while the BMP-3 peppers the enemy positions with 100mm HE-FRAG (it doesn't have to be super accurate, just enough to keep their heads down and inflict some casualties).

Oh, and you also need to fire at the enemy, even if you only have a 5% or 7% chance of a hit in-game.

[shahadi]

I've recently recalled the conflict in Georgia in 2008. I now believe that Gerogia initiated the hostilities thinking NATO would back her militarily; due in large part to the Bucharest Declaration issued by NATO in 2008.

Here is part 23 of that declaration:

"We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO."

However, Ukraine has not made the Georgian mistake, although NATO is committed to add Ukraine to NATO.

Ukraine's geography is most important as well as the flow of natural gas through Ukraine. I think Russia intends to bleed Ukraine's economy; while pressuring the Ukrainian elites to accept what amounts to an oligarchical goverance along the lines in Russia; where industries, products, and services are allocated among the elites. I do not think Russia wants to invade Ukraine.

The US headed by Cruz and many other senators are threatening to replace the Nordstream II pipeline with US shipped natural gas. The US may have recheted up the tensions between Ukraine and Russia since 2014. In other words why now?

Could the case be that Putin is reacting to US threats to slash Nordstream II?

Ukraine has deployed the bulk of her fighting force, nearly 120,000 troops to Eastern Ukraine; and it should be noted that with the close
proximity of large formations a spark causing hostilities could smolder on winds from the East or West of Luhansk and Donetsk.

<b>

[shahadi]

This is a simple assault scenario. I haven't playtested it that throroughly; so don't invest too much of your time to it. If you're having difficulties; just quit and let me know if it's too hard or whatnot.

Operatsiya Polina, Feb 2022

Russia Assault
_____vs.
Ukraine Defend

Date: February 22, 2022
Location: Ovruch, Ukraine

===========================

This is a future-what-if scenario.

With the closing of the Beijing Winter Olympics on 20 February 2022, there was no longer any reason for Russia to maintain the pretexts behind their buildup along the border with Ukraine. Accordingly, at midnight on 22 February 2022, Operation Polina was launched.

This scenario is set several hours into the invasion. The 155th Naval Infantry Brigade, having pushed past Ukrainian Border Guards several hours earlier, reaches the first lines of major Ukrainian resistance just as the sun begins to rise.

Here, the Russian Marines' motto of "There, Where We Go, There is Victory!" would be tested.


Interestingly, Russia crushed Georgia in March of 2008. Today, is the 11th of February.

I know this scenario is a what/if, and we know MarkSheppard has given us thoughtful scenarios; please allow me to say, I can't see Russian Naval Infantry (marines) taking on Ukrainian army units; Marines are light forces with "beer and ammo" for maybe 72 hours max.

I'd buy the marines pushing aside border guards and other militia volunteers to permit an unhampered and rapid Russian heavy units follow through; with the marines protecting the flanks and rear of a regular army advance.

Thanks for sharing; and, thanks for patience.

<b>

[Aeraaa]

It was August 2008* when the Ossetian war happened.


*(officially on the 8th, which was also when the Bejing Olympics of 2008 started, although hostilities started since August 1)

[DRG]

Personally, I do not think there will be an invasion. This IMHO is the west looking for a way to distract people from the Pandemic and Putin is happy to stir the pot. This "build-up" is all about Ukraine possibly joining NATO which is about as popular in Russia as it would have been in the US 50 years ago if Mexico talked about joining Warsaw pact. Even the Ukrainian President says all this speculation is not helping.

To put that into perspective, if Ukraine joined NATO that would put the eastern border of a NATO nation less than 250 km from what was Stalingrad.

Think about that.

EDIT......... WELL, I GUESS I WAS WRONG ABOUT THE INVASION.......

[zovs66]

I agree with DRG, this is just another smoke and mirrors game run by a clown who stole an election (not the real laughing stock hiding in the office). While I can a test to the reality of Covid, its not a natural flu like sickness at all, its a man made bio-weapon created by the Chinese from the pocket books of the likes of Gates and his frontman Fauci. If you think otherwise, go ask some folks in Australia or Canada how much their governments really care about their people. Those two countries alone have the closest thing to the Nazi jackboots on the ground in their Polizei force.

[MarkSheppard]

I know this scenario is a what/if, and we know MarkSheppard has given us thoughtful scenarios; please allow me to say, I can't see Russian Naval Infantry (marines) taking on Ukrainian army units; Marines are light forces with "beer and ammo" for maybe 72 hours max.

Russian Naval Infantry isn't your normal naval infantry.

I created this scenario based off a twitter thread that identified vehicles of the 155th Naval Infantry Brigade on trains:

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1481968626701934592

T-80BV
MT-LB
BMP-3

Some further work identified the main OOB of the 155th NIB as being:

155th Separate Naval Infantry Brigade
---59th Separate Naval Infantry Battalion
---84th Naval Infantry Separate tank battalion -- 4 companies of tanks plus 1 or 2 tanks for BN HQ.
---263rd Separate Artillery Battery (6 x 2S9 Nona?)
---1484th Separate Communications Battalion

A Naval Infantry Battalion is:

HHC Supply/Medical/Maint/Comms units
3 x Naval Infantry Companies
1 x Mortar Platoon
1 x AT Platoon

I didn't have precise numbers on how the 155th's 59th NIB was equipped, so I gave them 1 x BMP-3 Co and 2 x MT-LB Co; because even in 2022; Russia has only 700 x BMP-3 in service; and a single BMP-3 company has 13 of them; ergo, Russia can only deploy about 50 companies of BMP-3s.

EDIT: Looking at Wiki, my guess was right:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Naval_Infantry

The Russian Naval Infantry have been gradually phasing out PT-76 amphibious tanks, and started to receive a number of T-80s and upgraded BMP-2Ms.[26][27] A full-strength Naval Infantry Brigade may have up to 70-80 Tanks. The Russian Naval Infantry has 50 T-72B, 150 T-72B3, 30 T-72B3 mod. 2016, 50 T-80BV and 50 T-80BVM as of 2021. The APCs used by the Naval Infantry are either wheeled BTR-80s (in Assault Landing Battalions) or tracked MT-LBs (in Marine Battalions). Naval Infantry units are receiving BMP-3 IFVs and about 40 have been delivered in 2021.[28] BMP-3s may equip one company per Marine battalion.

[Mr_Bill_5000]

Actually there IS a scenario (I wrote it).

Reference :

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=851432&postcount=120

It's called "Battle in East Ukraine" and is winnable by either side (although clearly the Ukrainians have a harder time of it).

Let me know what you think,

Mr. Bill

[shahadi]

It is has been reported Russian assault ships are on station in the Black Sea; however, I did not observe a flight deck on the Kaliningrad amphibious assault ship. That leads me to believe the naval infantry does not have organic air assault capability as contrasted with an American USMC MEU. And, it reveals that naval infantry units conducts assualts amphibiously; without rotary or fixed-wing aircraft to transport, provide air strike or logistical support.

Therefore, I would find interesting to know the real capabilities of the naval infantry given she does not have dedicated air assets for transport, air support, and logistics. Furthermore, Russia has only I aircraft carrier, meaning time on station per air sortie maybe drastically reduced from air operations conducted from an amphibious assault ship; certainly, rotary operations maybe restricted outright.

If my assessments are accurate, Russian air support would have to be based at the airfield in Crimea; too far for rotary support, and at a distance to severely restrict ordinance loads of strike aircraft. In my thinking the port of Odessa is the big prize to squeeze Ukraine economically while restricting her military logistical support.

I say the siezing of the port of Odessa is within the core doctrine of naval infantry (or should be). The Russians must rely on coordinating support for naval infantry from the air force and possibly the army if my assessments are accurate.

But, as I have said in an earlier post, I do not subscribe to a Russian invasion. IMHO, The political solution has the Minks Agreements of 2014 as a foundation.

Now that I've mentioned the USMC, where's Suhiir?

<br>

[DRG]

Now that I've mentioned the USMC, where's Suhiir?

<br>

She last posted 26th May 2021. She does has not replied to emails I have sent though they are not bounced

Given everything that has gone on since 26th May 2021 and that she had pre-existing health issues it doesn't look good

[shahadi]

Now that I've mentioned the USMC, where's Suhiir?

<br>

She last posted 26th May 2021. She does has not replied to emails I have sent though they are not bounced

Given everything that has gone on since 26th May 2021 and that she had pre-existing health issues it doesn't look good

Understood.

She slapped me around a few times in the forum, but she was always firm, fair, and one hell of a gal.

<br>

[DRG]

It's a given that MBT in particular is a game of "what if" battles. That is pretty much why SP2 was created and why we developed SPMBT

A few years back I created a "Goldap" map for SPWW2. Goldap was the first East Prussian city that was captured by the Soviets and over the course of late 1944 it changed hands a few times and is now part of Poland

That map is also in MBT ( map 416 ) I *may* update it for MBT with the city expanded to its current size depending on time available but at the time I built it I put the city in the centre and filled in the terrain around it to the max sized map allowed.

I did not realize until I was mostly done that in a modern Context the "northern" border of that map is almost exactly the border between Poland and the Russian Kaliningrad oblast. It couldn't be closer if I had planned it that way but I didn't. That's just the way it worked out .

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16613&stc=1&d=1645717024

[wulfir]

I have made a few fairly realistic maps of UA-RU border regions for a fictional MBT campaign, a "what if" invasion of Ukraine taking place in 2023. It was based on a much less ambitious Russian invasion than the real thing taking place now. Essentially I envisioned a single drive on Kyiv using brute force but with no fancy stuff like deep airborne operations and also a Russian efforts at avoiding massive destruction to Ukrainian infrastructure in the wider country, outside the combat zone...

The real deal seems to be a much more complex and brutal operation. Guess I'll have to convert them to winter maps now...


Some images of this fictional setup below (i.e. NOT what is taking place in reality now). Maybe the maps can be used for something else? It's possible that many of these locations fell without much fighting. One of these maps is based on the approaches to Hluchiv along the E38 and the Kleven river crossing at Zarutske. There is footage of about 15 Russian T-72s being zapped along a road, claimed to have been killed in the Hluchiv region by Javelin ATGMs...

https://64.media.tumblr.com/65ed4805a20765e110eb6af27fc61331/a511d1c05a0cb739-1a/s2048x3072/ffbd2cc1e5f26554c19e2b7e558bd9009a6d322d.png

https://64.media.tumblr.com/7b6a9afe575062b0475cc7936af1fa81/a511d1c05a0cb739-d5/s2048x3072/35491c5f478d5a4fa1576454b2096031d4427ec1.png

https://64.media.tumblr.com/9df4a933b11079127fccb7266c8c301e/b831b46ca035533b-28/s2048x3072/9389bcb8009ea2bde522b3a5dc1669cb17f14dc1.png

https://64.media.tumblr.com/3a01295308c02de913f1806352e982f8/90e5a9af6a928cfc-5e/s540x810/b3e4a1696d7606157f3b22df80acadfa3ae9799c.png

https://64.media.tumblr.com/b7db30c59d24c5deffae8e0b4ca389cf/5c7be01da8636fb0-3b/s2048x3072/0490c8033deb9f00f1a94a8c7898fc1fa090fea7.png

https://64.media.tumblr.com/6ef6b6d4f550298ce125287106a3cab3/5c7be01da8636fb0-07/s2048x3072/98a9048988312e2afcaf71836a77b6bcebc78e98.png

[MarkSheppard]

I've been away due to work (being so tired from one day that I went straight to sleep and slept through the opening of the war; and then being at work for two straight days due to an ice storm for the first two days of the war).

https://i.imgur.com/8m5IEhF.png

Looks like the Russians/Belarusians used the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone to pass through for their western pincer on Kiev.

So far with this war we have:


Battle of Chernobyl in the Exclusion Zone
Failed VDV air assault at Hostomel Airport -- VDV landed in helicopters and were wiped out after 8 hours.
Failed VDV airborne landings at Vasylkiv Airport, two IL-76s were shot down (claimed by US officials).


Russian casualties claimed by the Ukrainians for the first 36 hours (I think) are:

100+ tanks
500+ "Armoured Combat Vehicles"
17+ aircraft (helos and jets)
3000~ troops.

I would have downgraded the Ukrainian estimates to 1000~ killed; since after all, you can count burned out wrecks on the battlefield and be sure of vehicle losses; but human losses are hard.

But after the Vasylkiv assault with two IL-76s shot down, I'm inclined now to increase it to 2000~ killed.

[DRG]

I have made a few fairly realistic maps of UA-RU border regions for a fictional MBT campaign, a "what if" invasion of Ukraine


If you would like those maps included in the next update forward them to me by mid March

I have added " Citizens Militia" units and formations to the Ukrainian OOB

[DRG]

Relevant to the conversation but slightly off topic ( but only a bit ) I wanted to take a look at the region between the Chernobyl exclusion zone and Kiev

This is the Pripyat east of Chernobyl

https://www.venhola.com/maps/geo.php#30.40,51.21,0

Imagine navigating a boat through that.....
https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16621&stc=1&d=1645896379

[wulfir]

If you would like those maps included in the next update forward them to me by mid March


Sure thing - couple of question though, most of those Ukr maps are very "summery" maps - what's best here given the somewhat unusual current situation; keep them that way or make them "spring/winterish".

Or make duplicates (summer and winter versions)?

What map slot should I start with?

[DRG]

"spring/winterish" works for me as a lot of the terrain I added suits that type of map but you can do whatever you like and I will put them into the game

The next open slot is 443

I wish there was an easy way to turn an existing map to another season but there isn't ( we tried when we added "keep contours")

[DRG]

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/defence/video-ukrainian-forces-reportedly-armed-with-belfast-built-bazookas-3587105


The Daily Mail reported that 2,000 of these anti-tank missiles had been sent to Ukrainian forces by January, with more possibly on the way – plus a couple of dozen paratroopers to train fighters to use them.

Its reporter on the ground, Nick Craven, reported that Ukrainian Lt Col Ihor Bezogluk had told him: “God save the Queen! Thank you to Great Britain for giving us the NLAWs...

“These missiles have changed the war for us. It means we can fight the Russians and it doesn’t matter how many of them there are now that we have a way of stopping their armour.

“The Russians cannot scare us with numbers anymore.”

Just added to the Ukrainian OOB. The NLAW is a big leap over what they had

Also, the Netherlands seems to be donating 400 PZF-3 launchers as of now (Germany has allowed them to pass through, a change of stance)

Just added to the Ukrainian OOB

basically - there will be a lot of changes in the UKR OOB, (including possible ending...)

Every day is a new day and we can only guess how events will develop

[MarkSheppard]

The 141st Akhmad Kadyrov Special Motorized Regiment of Russia’s National Guard (Rosgvardia) is one of two "Putin's Chechens" units currently in/near Ukraine.

Current story (so far) is that the Russians sent it to Hostomel Airfield as part of the fighting on/near it; and (stories differ):

1.) Ukrainian SBU Alfa Group ambushed one of their columns.
or
2.) Ukrainians called in artillery on one of their columns.

Either way, the CO of the 141st -- Magomed Tushayev -- is now dead.

This makes me wonder how badly that unit was mauled; and whether that tied into Putin's decision to call up more Chechen troops from Groznyy for the Ukrainian War.

[wulfir]

Also, the Netherlands seems to be donating 400 PZF-3 launchers as of now (Germany has allowed them to pass through, a change of stance)


There's a tweet out from the German Bundeskanzler that Germany will transfer 1000 anti-tank weapons and 500 Stingers from German stocks. I'm guessing the AT-weapons are hand held...

[DRG]

Andy had already mentioned the Stingers to me but I had not put them in yet. Thanks for the reminder. Until we know different I will assume the AT weapons are of the same type the Netherland donated

According to Wiki ( which is a better source than it used to be......Lithuania and Latvia have transferred unknown quantities of Stinger missiles from their inventory to Ukraine after receiving an approval from the U.S. state department. The Netherlands will supply the Ukraine with 200 Stinger missiles. Germany will supply 500 Stingers.

.......wonder if that's what brought down the Il-76's

Depending on how long this lasts ( not long probably but hey.... I thought this wasn't going to happen...) this will turn into a weapons testing ground

[DRG]

If anyone finds any info on which version of the Pz3 the Germans sent let us know. The Multi Charge version is a significant upgrade over the base version

[Pibwl]

Andy had already mentioned the Stingers to me but I had not put them in yet. Thanks for the reminder.

Add Polish Piorun MANPADS of course. Poland also gave 60 mm mortars, but it's not much improvement to OOB.

(Edit: some sources say Grom MANPADS. There is no clear confirmation so far. Piorun is a development of Grom, also known as Grom-M)

[blazejos]

Ghost_of_Kyiv

Helicopters during first battle of Hostomel airport and some aircrafts also Il-76 in 26 of Feb were lost thanks to Ukrainians Mig-29. There is now an urban legend created during Kyiv sige that this is an one Pilot who alredy shot down 6 aircrafts and many helicopters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_of_Kyiv

[Oche]

Kevlar-E IFV prototype rushed to fight.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/44473/ukraines-prototype-kevlar-e-armored-fighting-vehicle-has-joined-the-fight-against-russia?fbclid=IwAR0Fz268l7umZJvvl1CYnfOOmMX1PpRf5u 9MaUcChYQDcsOpCs8cZDtIqQQ

[DRG]

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16625&stc=1&d=1645967728

[DRG]

https://i.imgur.com/oo3djWG.png

[MarkSheppard]

If you would like those maps included in the next update forward them to me by mid March

May I kindly suggest that a 15~ day delay be put onto this year's update?

The geopolitical landscape is shifting rapidly, and there are signs you might have to do another flag update this year (besides Afghanistan).

Belarus may be undergoing a slow motion revolution.

Background in a series of tweets:

================

https://twitter.com/Tsihanouskaya/status/1497583706038484996?t=uUW3E73abchvcSg687GfjA&s=19

Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya (@Tsihanouskaya)
Lukashenka committed treason – he made our country a participant in the invasion of Ukraine. So I declared myself as the national leader of Belarus to protect the sovereignty & independence of our country, represent it in security negotiations & crisis management in the region.

Basically, Tsikhanouskaya is the only person who challenged Luka in the 2020 elections and she was forced into exile in Eastern Europe (Poland/Balt States) as a result.

===========

https://twitter.com/Den_2042/status/1497649869909118976

Belsat (quoting multiple sources): Belarusian troops expect to be deployed to fight in Ukraine in a few days.

===========

https://twitter.com/TadeuszGiczan/status/1497850214417379331?t=JivmGBRdBJEdsgTHYaH6Lg&s=19

Lukashenko confirms missile strikes have been launched from Belarus against Ukraine because "Kyiv deployed 3-4 missile divisions near our border".

==============

What's happening today is a vote on the 2022 Belarusian Constitutional Referendum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Belarusian_constitutional_referendum)

that

Basically gives Lukashenko Immunity for acts he commits/committed as president of Belarus

Changes Article 18 of the Belarusian constitution that says "the Republic of Belarus aims at making its territory a nuclear-free zone", enabling Russia to deploy its nuclear weapons on Belarusian territory.

==============


https://twitter.com/TadeuszGiczan/status/1497893340343377922?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Belarusians chanting "No to war" outside one of polling stations in Minsk right now. Via @MotolkoHelp

===========

https://twitter.com/TadeuszGiczan/status/1497896842100674561?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Given the level of repression, the only possible for Belarusians to gather in protest against the invasion was to turn out to vote in the referendum at the same time all across the country – today at 2PM local time. It seems to have worked! Videos coming from all over the country

==============

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1497946395407495171?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Lukashenka's flag was removed from the #Belarusian embassy in #Vilnius and replaced with the national white-pass-white flag and the #Ukrainian flag. It is reported that the national flag was also noticed at the Belarusian embassy in #Paris.

=====================

We may be seeing a slow motion coup/revolution inside Belarus, provoked by Lukashenko's actions.

Right now, I think it all depends on what Luka does in the next 24 hours.

The previous SRBM and airstrikes he had the Belarussian Air Force launch against Ukraine can be walked back, with some difficulty, but committing ground forces to Ukraine kind of can't.

[DRG]

If you would like those maps included in the next update forward them to me by mid March

May I kindly suggest that a 15~ day delay be put onto this year's update?.

Mid March is the aim point for submissions like scenarios NOT when we will release the update. We are WELL AWARE that the situation is fluid ( Gee.. Ya think ? ) and there may need to be serious adjustments. Andy and I exchanged at least 2 dozen emails yesterday

That said this is reported to be a wrecked Russian MT-LBM and it isn't exactly what you would call a top tier combat vehicle

( unless someone thought this was going to be a.......“We have only to kick in the door, and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down.”...... exercise)

https://i.imgur.com/DCyYjw4.png

[DRG]

EDIT: Better ( I ASSUME).....transcript

https://www.joeydevilla.com/2022/02/25/put-these-sunflower-seeds-in-your-pocket-so-theyll-bloom-when-you-die-on-ukrainian-soil/

Woman: Who are you?

Soldier: We have exercises here. Please go this way.

Woman: What kind of exercises? Are you Russian?

Soldier: Yes.

Woman: So what the **** are you doing here?

Soldier: Right now, our discussion will lead to nothing.

Woman: You’re occupants, you’re fascists! What the **** are you doing on our land with all these guns? Take these seeds [sunflower seeds — the sunflower is Ukraine’s national flower] so at least sunflowers will grow when you all lie down here.

Soldier: Right now, our discussion will lead nowhere [clearly, they’ve been given talking points]. Let’s not escalate this situation. Please.

Woman: What situation? Guys, guys. Put sunflower seeds in your pockets, please. You will lie down here with the seeds. You come to my land. Do you understand? You are occupiers. You are enemies.

Soldier: Yes.

Woman: And from this moment, you are cursed. I’m telling you.

Soldier: Now listen to me —

Woman: I’ve heard you.

Soldier: Let’s not escalate the situation. Please go this way.

Woman: How can it be further escalated? You ****ing came here uninvited. Pieces of ****.

[wulfir]

Announcement on Swedish TV now by the prime minster; Sweden is to ship 5000 light anti tank weapons to Ukraine. These are not Rb 57 (NLAW) or Grg (Carl Gustaf) however but Pansarskott 86 (usually called AT-4 internationally).

[DRG]

Weapon 81 in the Swede OOB I believe?

[DRG]

We are adding these things in and it's a "good thing"(tm) that nations are helping out....... the problem is they will only get into use if this conflict drags out and the longer this drags on........ well it isn't good ( for anyone )

The Ukrainians needed these in their hands from the very start but who knows maybe they will get to where they are needed but thinking..... probably not.

[wulfir]

Weapon 81 in the Swede OOB I believe?

That seems likely.
Maybe a few OOB066 Weapon 107..., don't know.

Finland announced it intends to hand over 1500 "single shot anti tank weapons" - I guess that means M72 LAW or APILAS.

[DRG]

We've put a few of the reported weapons in and built units to use them along with Citizen Militia units and a vehicle but for now that going to be it. To many variables and too much is happening too fast to try to keep up or we'll end up with an abbreviated version of the USA OOB when we had to take out all the "future weapons systems" that never happened and we ( I ) had to tear the OOB apart and rebuild it to reflect "reality".

[wulfir]

I can understand that. I'm happy they get the stuff but OOB work is going to be major headache if Ukraine gets flooded with all kinds of kit.

Norway pledges 2000 M72 LAWs too. Not sure if it brings anything much different to the table compared to what is already in the OOB but the math is interesting. Say only one in four of these foreign supplied weapons hits a target that would still be a considerable number of damaged or killed vehicles...

[DRG]

Lot's of photos of wrecks but no way to confirm who's they are unless there are subtle hints I have not been able to decipher but there has been a cornucopia of high quality photos of T-72's published lately.... some working.. some never likely to again

AT4/Pansarskott 86 is just a more capable M72. If you had the choose one pick the AT4..... if all you have is an M72 it will do the job for most things you'd need it for IF it can get it to where it would do the most good

[blazejos]

Even Mig-29 and Su-25 will be send to Ukraine :angel
https://twitter.com/verkhovna_rada/status/1498395748530016257?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1498395748530016257%7Ctwgr% 5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fnext.gazeta.pl%2Fnext%2F7151 00328168741polska-przekaze-ukrainskiej-armii-28-mig-ow-29-bulgaria-i-slowacja.html

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/02/28/ukrainian-pilots-arrive-in-poland-to-pick-up-donated-fighter-jets-00012560

And about Swedish AT4 here what we have hope that they will include this funny fake IKEA style manuals

https://i.redd.it/y3c0rm1z1jk81.jpg

[DRG]

As a tie in with the post I made the other day

The quality of the equipment seems really sub par and " well used" . LINK (https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/t1vqj3/russian_****_equipment_is_worse_than_ours/)


Recalling the comment made in the movie Kelly's Heros by Moriarty when they "acquired" the Tiger

It's a piece of junk! The fuel system leaks all over the place. It's a piece of junk!
==========================================





If you would like those maps included in the next update forward them to me by mid March

May I kindly suggest that a 15~ day delay be put onto this year's update?.

Mid March is the aim point for submissions like scenarios NOT when we will release the update. We are WELL AWARE that the situation is fluid ( Gee.. Ya think ? ) and there may need to be serious adjustments. Andy and I exchanged at least 2 dozen emails yesterday

That said this is reported to be a wrecked Russian MT-LBM and it isn't exactly what you would call a top tier combat vehicle

( unless someone thought this was going to be a.......“We have only to kick in the door, and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down.”...... exercise)

https://i.imgur.com/DCyYjw4.png

[MarkSheppard]

You can find battle locations using NASA fire sensing satellites

https://firms.modaps.eosdis.nasa.gov/map/#d:today;@32.8,50.0,8z

Set your static background to Topographic and set your timeline to 7 days and you can find battles.

==================

KHARKOV last 7 days:

https://i.imgur.com/RzOhi3h.png

==================

KIEV last 24 hours:

https://i.imgur.com/Yxr3Edj.png

[Wdll]

Greece sent two C130 with ammo, AKs (no idea what models), AT weapons and "launchers". From what I understand the AKs are confiscated ones and some from former East German stock. What the launchers and the AT weapons are...no idea.

I also read today about two more C-130 with more military items in them, but not even the vague info of the previous shipment.

Not much info I know, but I thought to share it anyway.

[scorpio_rocks]

Is there a need / use to extend the Chechen OoB dates to the present, in order to use them for the troops of Ramzan Kadyrov supporting / participating in the invasion of Ukraine?

OR do Chechen formations need adding into the Russian OoB?

OR are they effectively no different in game terms to "standard" Russian troops?

[DRG]

.........no different in game terms to "standard" Russian troops

If used in a scenario they could be renamed and ID taged easily enough but we are not reactivating the Chechen OOB.

[blazejos]

This photo of them if you converting to lbm will be great. Now in scenerio editor is possible to attach individual lbm's without use them in OOB. They are sort of Special unit or OMON internal troops (equivalent of Praetorians in acient Rome)

https://ipla.pluscdn.pl/dituel/cp/ts/tsmz8wjssxvdk18suzek9vp5w9mhksqq.jpg

BTW. is sad that Chechen OOB is finishing in 1999 country was conquered that true in 1999 and is now part of Russian Federation but oposing forces fight Kadyrov until 2009. Then was silent and since 2014 Checheen emigree fights on Ukrainian side and are also now involved in Kyiv defence.

Here is also famous "Parteitag" :D in Grozny 25 February https://twitter.com/cbatuhan36/statu...oORa0awc-zr3og
And tweets feed about Chechen in Ukraine from both sides https://twitter.com/hashtag/Chechen?src=hashtag_click

Chechen forces are small on both sides but are elite forces and in my opnion they play important role for both sides. They are with longest experience on battlefield since 1993.

And don't forgoten also about Belorusia. Lukaszenko today send his army to fight Ukraine and help Russia. He said that no Belorusian soliders are involved in that confilict but in 1 of March 2022 they were spoted in Czernichov oblast western Ukraine. So propably he lied (don't know english political correct word for ugly lie). But for Belorusian that start to be also a civil war there existing unit of Belorusian exiles which fight on Ukrainian side since begining of the war so here info about them
https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1497863019979853827?s=20&t=QcxndAugJxhxVZhPSkSWUA
https://konkret24.tvn24.pl/swiat,109/bialorusini-na-ukrainie-staneli-do-walki-z-agresorem-to-zdjecie-nie-jest-aktualne,1097753.html

[wulfir]

The quality of the equipment seems really sub par and " well used" . LINK (https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/t1vqj3/russian_****_equipment_is_worse_than_ours/)


The Russian troops that went into Belarus were largely drawn from the Far East IIRC - which have been not had priority for new kit and have had to make do with older stuff. Think I saw T-72As the other day...

[DRG]

The quality of the equipment seems really sub par and " well used" . LINK (https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/t1vqj3/russian_****_equipment_is_worse_than_ours/)


The Russian troops that went into Belarus were largely drawn from the Far East IIRC - which have been not had priority for new kit and have had to make do with older stuff. Think I saw T-72As the other day...


Makes sense if you want to ensure your troops don't have relatives in Ukraine.......

[DRG]

From NBC news


“And look at the pictures of the city of Grozny, the capital of Chechnya, from 20 years ago," he said. "They levelled it. You can imagine that kind of city fighting, mass bombardment, disregard for civilian casualties. That’s what’s bearing down on Kharkiv and Kyiv now.”

[wulfir]

AT4/Pansarskott 86 is just a more capable M72.

News over here claims Canada will ship 100 Carl Gustaf RRs (Grg, or Granatgevär). If true Ukraine will field examples of all modern Swedish made inf-AT systems that exist in the game except the RBS-56 ATGM ...

[DRG]

Yes, I know and I have added them and MAYBE they might actually make it to Ukraine but I'm not optimistic. 100 Launchers and IIRC 2000 rockets

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

It has been reported as of late last night that the 350 million dollar weapons package we just sent has been already delivered d to the Ukraine. Some are "guessing" it was landed in Slovakia or Czech Republic and transported overland across the border in Ukraine. Most if not all from Europe has been going through Poland.

Supposedly, we used the other option to more rapidly expedite get those weapons in country due to Europe using Poland for the same and refugees (Now about 600K.) coming out of the Ukraine.

About to timeout. Gotta Go!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[blazejos]

Update about Kadyrov units according to this article their vehicles are marked with V instead of Z like rest of regular units

https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3417465-russian-invasion-update-column-of-kadyrovs-vehicles-destroyed-near-borodianka.html

There is also list of foreign aid equipment send to Ukraine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War

Starlink also comes to Ukraine important to keep comunications
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/elon-musk-ukraine-spacex-starlink-satellite-internet-service/
https://twitter.com/FedorovMykhailo/status/1498392515262746630

[blazejos]

And in Sumy region fights stops. Brave Russian commander give his soldiers command to stop fight and move their vehicles back to Russia even if he know as said during negotiations he will face curt marital and probably death.

https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3417668-enemy-tanks-return-from-sumy-region-to-russia-with-barrels-raised.html

[DRG]

If True it's significant but there is a whiff of propaganda/maskirovka about it as it's only being reported there..........time will tell

[Karagin]

If True it's significant but there is a whiff of propaganda/maskirovka about it as it's only being reported there..........time will tell

This whole thing has had that from the start. I don't trust or support either side.

[DRG]

This is not a Black/white issue and it didn't just suddenly happen

[Wdll]

The quality of the equipment seems really sub par and " well used" . LINK (https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/t1vqj3/russian_****_equipment_is_worse_than_ours/)


The Russian troops that went into Belarus were largely drawn from the Far East IIRC - which have been not had priority for new kit and have had to make do with older stuff. Think I saw T-72As the other day...


Makes sense if you want to ensure your troops don't have relatives in Ukraine.......


I feel stupid, I knew of the troops, but for some reason I never made the connection of having as few "connections" with Ukraine as possible. Thanks.

[Wdll]

Interesting video from the Russian side.
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=7742784695735466

[Wdll]

2000 M72 LAW from Norway to Ukraine.
https://www.ptisidiastima.com/norway-sent-2000-m72-law-to-ukraine/

[DRG]

This is not a Black/white issue and it didn't just suddenly happen

I'm not saying anything most of you don't already know ( or should )

I think it is safe to say that in NATO countries NATO is seen strictly as a Defensive alliance designed solely to deter aggression against any one member. Any potential aggressor would know that the doctrine of mutual defence is (theoretically...) "carved in stone" and any attack on one is an attack on them all and ASSUMING those "leading" those NATO nations don't suddenly develop feet of clay an attack on a NATO member nation is not something to go into lightly.

OTOH NATO is not viewed the same in Russia. Warsaw pact was an ( obviously ) Russian "friendly" alliance and buffer between Russia and NATO

That buffer no longer exists and NATO has brought into the alliance former WP/ Soviet Union states that now directly border Russia and there had been rumours about bringing in Ukraine as well though I don't know how serious that was. It is a certainty that the previous Ukrainian President would never have entertained the idea but Zelenskyy looks west, not east and that complicates things

"Good fences make for good neighbours"..... if one neighbour moves the fence into what you consider your property that creates a problem

..........and now we have a problem. If Ukraine falls, then Russia will have a greatly expanded land border with the European Union which, of course, is the reverse of an EU /NATO Ukraine which the EU/ NATO will no doubt view as a serious threat that is little different from the one an EU /NATO Ukraine did the Russians.



"May you live in interesting times"

...it seems we are

[blazejos]

Finally found descriptions table on Russian vehicles

https://i.redd.it/fx9l82j45rk81.jpg

[MarkSheppard]

Revised my original scenario.

Changes:

1.) Victory locations now on map. :doh:

2.) Ukrainian ATGM teams standardized around 35 Experience, 65 morale -- remember that this is Day 1 of the war -- they haven't had experience in firing lots of ATGMs...yet (rare, and expensive for Ukraine before war.).

3.) Pre-programmed timed Russian barrages collapsed to a single pre-game preparatory bombardment, after which the complete artillery setup is available for Russian player.

4.) Tinkered a bit with Ukrainian reinforcement timing.

5.) revised scenario name and text below:

Saint Javelin, Feb 2022*
*
Russia Assault*
_____vs.*
Ukraine Defend*
*
Date: February 24, 2022*
Location: Ovruch, Ukraine*
Type: Semi-Hypothetical*
*
Novices should pick the Ukrainian side.*
Experienced players may enjoy the tactical challenges the 155th NIB is facing.*
*
===========================*
*
Following the declaration of a "Special Military Operation" by Vladimir Putin, Russian forces along the Ukrainian border attacked on the heels of ballistic and cruise missile strikes on key Ukrainian installations.*
*
This semi-hypothetical scenario is set several hours into the "Special Military Operation." The Russian 155th Naval Infantry Brigade, having pushed past Ukrainian Border Guards several hours earlier, reaches the first lines of major Ukrainian resistance just as the sun begins to rise.*
*
Here, the Russian Marines' motto of "There, Where We Go, There is Victory!" would be tested.*
*
DESIGNER'S NOTES:*
*
1.) If you're playing as the Russians: Dismount your infantry early and often and fire at everything, even if you only have a 4 percent chance of a hit -- the suppression will eventually build up.*
*
2.) I originally released an early version of this scenario as a "what-if" on 3 February 2022 with the following pretext:*
*
"With the closing of the Beijing Winter Olympics on 20 February 2022, there was no longer any reason for Russia to maintain the pretexts behind their buildup along the border with Ukraine. Accordingly, at midnight on 22 February 2022, Operation Polina was launched."*
*
Little did I know that per captured Russian documents recovered by the Ukrainians that the Russians had finalized their plans and transmitted them on 18 February 2022. The original invasion date was 22 February 2022 and the "Special Military Operation" was to last 15 days, ending 6 March.

[MarkSheppard]

The seeming Russian incompetence in this war may be due to a simple factor:

Corruption + Conscripts.

Almost all of the Russian logistics forces are conscripts, due to the proscription of using conscripts in "active" front line positions due to "Soldier's Mothers'" Groups.

This means that the logistics guys for the last four months have been selling stuff in the assumption it was an exercise.

(before the invasion, there were stories of Russian troops selling diesel fuel, etc to local villagers)

According to Russian plans captured by the Ukrainians, many Russian staff officers found out about this being an invasion on February 18th, with the target date being February 22nd.

That's not a lot of time to fix fuel (and spare parts) stocks depleted over 4 months of buildup by ill paid conscripts doing conscript things.

Additionally, many of their wheeled vehicles may be suffering from tire rot:

https://twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1499164245250002944

This is a thread that will explain the implied poor Russian Army truck maintenance practices based on this photo of a Pantsir-S1 wheeled gun-missile system's right rear pair of tires below & the operational implications during the Ukrainian mud season.

For the sin of being the new guy, I was the DCMA quality auditor in charge of the US Army's FMTV "vehicle exercise program" at the contractor manufacturing them from the Mid-1990's to the mid-2000's Then we got more new guys.

Short form: Military trucks need to be turned over and moved once a month for preventative maintenance reasons.

In particular you want to exercise the central tire air inflation system (CTIS) to see if lines have leaks or had insect/vermin nests blocking the system.

One of the biggest reasons for the repositioning, per TACOM logistic Representatives, was that direct sunlight ages truck tires.

The repositioning of Trucks in close parking prevents a lot of this sun rotting and cycling the CTIS keeps the tire sidewalls supple.

When you leave military truck tires in one place for months on end. The side walls get rotted/brittle such that using low tire pressure setting for any appreciable distance will cause the tires to fail catastrophically via rips.

(video)

Now look at the same Pantsir-S1 tire sidewalls after the Ukrainians tried to tow or drive it out of the mud.

The right rear tire fell apart because the rips in it were too big for the CTIS to keep aired up.

No one exercised that vehicle for 1 year.

There is a huge operational level implication in this. If the Russian Army was too corrupt to exercise a Pantsir-S1. They were too corrupt to exercise the trucks & wheeled AFV's now in Ukraine.

The Russians simply cannot risk them off road during the Rasputitsa/Mud season.

And there is photographic evidence of this.

There are 60(+) Russian army trucks crowded & parked on this raised road bed to avoid the fate of the mud-bogged Pantsir-S1.

Given the demonstrated levels of corruption in truck maintenance. There is no way in h--l that there are enough tires in the Russian army logistical system.

So their wheeled AFV/truck park is as road bound as Russian Army columns were in the 1st Russo-Finnish War.

What that means is that as long as and where ever the Spring Rasputitsa is happening. The Russian Army attack front is three wheeled AFV's wide.

When the Ukrainians can block the road with ATGM destroyed vehicles. They can move down either side of the road like Fins in 1939 destroying Russian truck columns.

The Crimea is a desert and the South Ukrainian coastal areas are dryer. So we are not seeing this there.

But elsewhere the Russians have a huge problem for the next 4-to-6 weeks.

https://twitter.com/KarlMuth/status/1499185800172474371

Bit of a tire expert here. Those aren't Soviet-era heavy truck radials. Chinese military tires, and I believe specifically the Yellow Sea YS20. This is a tire I first encountered in Somalia and Sudan; it's a bad Chinese copy of the excellent Michelin XZL military tire design.

To make things worse, we have rations on Russian vehicles that expired in ... 2015.

https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1498421431079735297

This is my theory.

A significant fraction of the vehicles used in the invasion were pulled from supply depots, similar to US REFORGER exercises.

When those vehicles were placed into the depots sometime around 2010-2011; they were stocked with a full equipment/MTOE loadout, which included food rations.

At some point, those rations expired; which isn't a bad thing -- they do that; and a rational supply depot clerk would make it part of the "checklist" to check the rations every year.

Either that, or when the vehicles were pulled out for the "exercise", the expired rations should have been replaced with fresh ones.

This...didn't happen.

Another issue is flat out corruption.

I've seen it claimed that out of $1T spent on military modernization in Russia, about $120-200M actually made it to their intended targets.

That's an outlandish claim, but not so much afterr reports of Russian troops using unencrypted commercial radios in the Ukraine.

The best explanations for why the Russians would be insane enough to use unencrypted commercial Baofeng radios in a major military operation are two:

1.) The money for the good tactical comms was diverted away over the years at various command elements.

2.) A lot of the troops being used are from the Far Eastern Republics (aka Mongolians), with obsolete equipment such as T-72As and T-72Bs.

All theories end up at the same place:

When the higher ups were told that yes, this "Exercise" on the Ukrainian border is actually an invasion, they had to hurriedly order commercial radios to bring all their units up to (or close to) full TO&E levels, since there was no time (and insufficient warstocks) to equip everyone with the latest encrypted radios that are standard issue for top line units.

[Karagin]

Or the Russians are using this to test out tactics and junior officers, along with cleaning out older equipment.

The Russians like to play games, they know no one really takes them seriously, and they know that given their performance in other conflicts since the 90s, NO ONE TAKES THEM SERIOUSLY. So all we keep seeing are these glowing reports of the Ukrainians doing well, but all we see on the flip side is reports of idiotic Russian moves or their tanks being stolen or this or that. Never do we see anything that shows them in another light or viewpoint.

So I don't buy the propaganda coming out of the area from either side. Recall no army does everything right all the time, and given how easy it is to sit on the sidelines and judge we are all seeing things from a point of view of not being there.

I prefer facts, so far very little of that has come out of the region, and given that the American media and political parties are playing their own spin and games with things, I doubt we will ever get the facts.

[DRG]

''''''''''given that the American media and political parties are playing their own spin and games with things, I doubt we will ever get the facts.

I can only imagine the laughter in the Kremlin when they watched Condoleezza Rice condemn Russia for invading a sovereign nation.

The irony is pretty thick

As for spin, I have watched one MSNBC "commentator" blame Trump for everything going on when it was Trump that put Sanctions on Nord Stream 2 in 2019 and it was Biden who removed them in May 2021.



"The first casualty of war is truth"

[DRG]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ukraine-russia-putin-canadian-forces-1.6372259

Escalating fodder for the propaganda industry on both sides

"Brave Foreign Volunteers!!" <<>>" Murderous Foreign contract killers!!"

Potato-Potatoe

I will give the guy credit for putting it all on the line. First against ISIS and now in Ukraine

Don

[Karagin]

''''''''''given that the American media and political parties are playing their own spin and games with things, I doubt we will ever get the facts.

I can only imagine the laughter in the Kremlin when they watched Condoleezza Rice condemn Russia for invading a sovereign nation.

The irony is pretty thick

As for spin, I have watched one MSNBC "commentator" blame Trump for everything going on when it was Trump that put Sanctions on Nord Stream 2 in 2019 and it was Biden who removed them in May 2021.



"The first casualty of war is truth"

Didn't Biden back the 2014 coup in Ukraine?

Yes, truth is always lost in a war.

Try explaining to folks how infrastructure like powerplants and such are legitimate targets and you will get branded all kinds of names. I was recently kicked out of a history group for citing the Laws of Land Warfare on how structures lose any special protection IF one side or the other uses them as part of a defense or to house military equipment.

[DRG]

Hows this for going from the sublime to the rediculous

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/03/ukraine-authorities-say-seized-russian-tanks-dont-need-to-be-declared-on-tax-form

Ukraine authorities say seized Russian tanks don’t need to be declared on tax form
Corruption-fighting body urges citizens to ‘continue to defend the motherland’ while easing any concerns about ‘significant changes in the property status’ :doh:

[Pibwl]

Add Polish Piorun MANPADS of course. Poland also gave 60 mm mortars, but it's not much improvement to OOB.

(Edit: some sources say Grom MANPADS. There is no clear confirmation so far. Piorun is a development of Grom, also known as Grom-M)

Piorun is confirmed - here is YT tutorial (Ukrainian only, though) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW5TISE8_w0 ;)
A point of interest is attached ID key corresponding to missile's number, and a keyboard with modes:
(upper row) aircraft/helicopter, UAV, rocket,
(middle row) clear weather, clouds, night.

And here is a result of probably Piorun's action: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1354173825098926


Ukraine authorities say seized Russian tanks don’t need to be declared on tax form

With tanks I think it's a joke, and authorities appeal to report tanks in order to recover and rehaul them. There are already photos of GAZ Tigr in some repair plant. But I guess Kamaz truck might be more luring ;)

BTW, I recalled a dialogue: The Russians stopped with a fuel truck by our shop to rob food. While they were inside, we stole their truck ;)

[Karagin]

Seems that Germany sent a bunch of duds to Ukraine, many of the MPADs are not working, thing is they sent old Igla MPADs, 700 of which have failed to fire. Along with moldy ammo for AKs and other WP weapons. I guess they didn't sell off all that old East German stock of weapons and ammo. But hey it's the thought that counts...

[Pibwl]

Seems that Germany sent a bunch of duds to Ukraine, many of the MPADs are not working, thing is they sent old Igla MPADs, 700 of which have failed to fire. Along with moldy ammo for AKs and other WP weapons. I guess they didn't sell off all that old East German stock of weapons and ammo. But hey it's the thought that counts...

Germany gave 500 Stingers and 1000 PzF 3, and German government claims, that they arrived to Ukraine on Wednesday (2 March). I guess there are no complaints concerning them.

Just about that time it was announced, that Germany would give also 2700 ex-DDR Strelas (I assume Strela-2M?), but German press revealed, that according to Bundeswehr reports, only around 2000 are still useful. Sadly, Germany is unjustly criticized for this decision in some scandal-seeking media, which do not mention Stingers... :mad: Anyway, I think, that it's better to have extra 2000 Strelas at hand, than nothing (even with its mediocre hit probability, and limited rather to running out aircraft, showing exhaust).

[Pibwl]

Or the Russians are using this to test out tactics and junior officers, along with cleaning out older equipment.

The Russians like to play games, they know no one really takes them seriously, and they know that given their performance in other conflicts since the 90s, NO ONE TAKES THEM SERIOUSLY. So all we keep seeing are these glowing reports of the Ukrainians doing well, but all we see on the flip side is reports of idiotic Russian moves or their tanks being stolen or this or that. Never do we see anything that shows them in another light or viewpoint.

...
I prefer facts, so far very little of that has come out of the region, and given that the American media and political parties are playing their own spin and games with things, I doubt we will ever get the facts.

Well, for last 10 days I almost do nothing but check battlefield news and read analyses, especially, that it is neighbour country...

In short, most analytics here agree, that it was not the war, that the Russians expected. Possibly trying to make it relatively "peaceful", and counting on little opposition, there were only weak missile and airforce preparation strikes. Southern direction actions were well prepared and trained, but surprisingly, on Kiev direction there were thrown two armies from Far East and Middle Asia, with worse training, older equipment and high conscript ratio. Elite 1st Tank Army was supposed to take Kharkiv, but met with strong and well prepared opposition there. Very important factor is, that most Russian conscript troops evidently had no "heart" for real war, especially that they were told, that it was basically a peacekeeping operation with people's support against the corrupt government, whose army would probably decompose. None of it appeared even close. And the people were former "brothers", speaking similar or the same language. Russian army did not evolve far from Warsaw Pact tactics, especially with little combined operation capability, while Ukrainian one was professionally trained according to NATO standards. And of course, if Russian leading columns were able to move into the country, there started problems with logistics - which was never strong and well-organized in USSR/Russia (supply convoys, protection and recovery of broken down equipment). Huge books will be written someday on this war... (provided, that it would not lead to mankind destruction).

Of course, Ukrainian side, trying to gain support and raise morale, publishes films of capturing or burning enemy equipment. They are mostly taken by National Guard territorial army, which makes ambushes in vast country. On the other hand, it is overlooked, that main burden of halting Russian advance is carried by regular Ukrainian army, with tanks and BMPs - there were reportedly fierce tank battles around Kharhkiv, Chernihiv and north of Kiev, but no reports are revealed to public. And regular soldiers are forbidden to carry mobile phones. Surely Ukrainian ground forces lost a couple thousand soldiers as well. Irregardless if there were any US interests or not, one thing is sure: noone in the 21st century is entitled to invade a neighbour in order to overthrow democratic government which does not violate human rights, or to dictate if sovereign country can be a member of some alliance, and this "special military operation" may not be justified.

[Karagin]

War is going to happen and no rules or "you can't do this or that because it's the 21st Century" is going to change that. Pretty sure the same comments were made all the way back to when there was peace between most countries and then well a history book will tell you how that turned out.

War is never going to go away. Not unless humanity is removed from the picture.

[Pibwl]

I hope you not consider it spam, here's a video of Russian D-30 howizter battery near Nikolaiyv, probably attacked with cluster munition, if you haven't seen it... Impressive counter-battery work
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk98HKJuoCI

[DRG]

I hope you not consider it spam, here's a video of Russian D-30 howizter battery near Nikolaiyv, probably attacked with cluster munition, if you haven't seen it... Impressive counter-battery work
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk98HKJuoCI


Do you know if that was a Ukrainian speaking or Russian? I must confess I cannot tell the difference

I assume this was recorded well after the event as the scene is devoid of any evidence of casualties

[Pibwl]

Ukrainian, though the difference is subtle. The narrator speaks, that "it was what remained of our brothers, who came to save us" (Ukrainian: "spasaty" instead of Russian "spasti"). "In such way Ukrainian artillery hits", he says.

Reportedly there are films on twitter (or wherever) with casaulties...

[DRG]

potentially dumb question alert

Maybe you know, maybe someone else does

Is Ukrainian to Russian ( the languages..... ) similar to the similarities and differences between High German and German Dialects?

( English, as spoken in the south of England and the Scottish northern highlands also comes to mind )

[DRG]

another one

https://twitter.com/i/status/1500513612661760000

[Pibwl]

potentially dumb question alert
...

Is Ukrainian to Russian ( the languages..... ) similar to the similarities and differences between High German and German Dialects?

There are no dumb questions ;)

I don't know the difference between German dialects, but I believe that Ukrainian and Russian are more different. Knowing Russian, I don't know Ukrainian and can hardly understand it, though more words are similar to Polish. A lot of words are different and there are slightly different grammar forms. Some Cyrillic letters are pronounced in a different way, which is a false friend. In writing, the easiest way to tell Ukrainian are letters "і" and "ї".

[lukerduker123]

I finally remembered my password, yippee. While trawling around the hellscape that is twitter I came across this map by an account called 'Jomini'. I have absolutely no clue how accurate it is, but I do hope that the divisional organization can help folks make more accurate maps.

With that in mind, any idea what the 20th Guards Motor are rocking? They were recently reformed apparently, so I assume they're rolling with some decent kit. Thinking about doing a scenario down there about the (theoretical) breakout from Kherson.

Apologies that this is a link. Been trying for the past few minutes to get it to work, but I'm far too tired and inebriated to keep it up. I promise it works if you click on it, though!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNOCaZeXoAArzQy.jpg?name=orig

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Germans were saving that East German equipment for a "rainy day" which is what probably happened inside those ammo bunkers!?! That's my theory anyway. :rolleyes:

KMW however, has offered from their own stockpile to send I BELIEVE the number was 50 GEPHARD SPAA to the Ukraine. They were (Almost 2 weeks ago now.) prepping them for shipment to include some minor updates to Radar and FCS.

1. Pending Govt. approval which is likely now.

2. How to setup training on the systems for the Ukrainian troops are the issues of concern at this time.

Ashamed about the STRELA's if true, they at least might've been effective to a degree against the Russia helicopters.

I feel good about my assessment of I made about the fighting qualities of the Ukrainian military prior to the invasion, they took what everyone gave them training wise to include an extensive portion devoted to "nationalism" and "pride of service" to their country.

I'm under no illusions here (Though I really hope I'm wrong and they pull off the 1936 Winter War Finland won.) but the situation is very dyer I think in the long term. That being said, I at the same time feel Putin waited 8yrs too long. He should've kept going in 2014. And before someone says something, I'm glad he didn't.

Also have seen several reports earlier on that the Russians are running around with a fair amount T-72B3 tanks and I've seen a couple of videos where the turrets had been blown off of them (~3 or 4. Usually, a sign they were taken out by top attack ATGM, ours or UK's. How? By the ERA Pkg. on them for one.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[blazejos]

Read about this tank T-64BV Obr.2022 tank. was tested by Ukrainians in 8th of February even if existing in one example they don't have time to modernised more I'm certain was rushed to the front unit https://thedeaddistrict.blogspot.com/2022/02/testing-of-t-64bv-obr2022-tank-has.html
the same with T-64BVK commander tank upgrade https://thedeaddistrict.blogspot.com/2021/11/kharkiv-tank-factory-unveiled-t-64bvk.html

[Mr_Bill_5000]

"The Outskirts of Mykolaiev"

A Steel Panthers MBT Scenario (Slot #551 in the "Scenarios" list)

Location : Small town of Mykolaiev'ske just SE of Mykolaiev, Ukraine (small map), March 2022.

Battle Type : Russia (east) Advance vs. Ukraine (west) Delay.

Setting : Forward elements of Russian South Front battle forces, trying to cut off Ukraine's Black Sea coast from the rest of the country, try to take this small town, which is right on the way to the larger city of Mykolaiev (formerly Russian Nikolaev).

As most of Ukraine's conventional army has had to be retained to defend the Kyiv / Kharkiv front up north, local Ukrainian infantry forces -- supplemented by a rag-tag force of Ukrainian "Territorial Guard" and "Foreign Legion" units -- attempts to hold off the advancing Russians as long as possible.

For more of a challenge, I suggest that you play the Ukrainian side, although the scenario has been play-tested and is winnable as either side, with the caveat that a "Draw" based on points score should be counted as a "Marginal Victory" for the Ukrainians. Make sure to read the scenario notes, they are extensive!

And let's all hope for a speedy and just end to this conflict. Far too many innocent people have died in it, already. War ain't a game, unfortunately.

Sincerely

Mr. Bill

[DRG]

I will be interested in any feedback on how this plays

A new addition to both games this year is something I have long wanted and that is to have accurate information about actually total "troop strength" This report appears when you purchase units for a scenario, campaign or generated battle

While the unit cost for the Russian forces vs Ukrainian is 8922/3415

The resulting troop strength for both sides is identical which is quite a feat to have done that without planning to

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16637&stc=1&d=1646740226


EDIT. I have copied this post and the one with the scenario to the SCENARIOS subfolder

[DRG]

Germans were saving that East German equipment for a "rainy day" which is what probably happened inside those ammo bunkers!?! That's my theory anyway. :rolleyes:

Yeah that does make sense. I recall from back in the 80's buying surplus 8mm ammo that had been OBVIOUSLY sand blasted to remove storage corrosion. Interestingly, I do not recall many misfires from it

KMW however, has offered from their own stockpile to send I BELIEVE the number was 50 GEPHARD SPAA to Ukraine. They were (Almost 2 weeks ago now.) prepping them for shipment to include some minor updates to Radar and FCS.


https://militaryleak.com/2022/03/02/krauss-maffei-wegman-offers-to-deliver-gepard-self-propelled-anti-aircraft-gun-spaag-to-ukraine/

[DRG]

Posted just as an FYI since this thread has "evolved". Who knew the pandemic could be viewed as the "good times"



https://tass.com/politics/1418197?utm_source=google.com&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=google.com&utm_referrer=google.com


MOSCOW, March 7. /TASS/. The Government of the Russian Federation has approved on Monday a list of foreign states and territories that commit unfriendly actions against Russia, its companies, and citizens.

The list includes the United States and Canada, the EU states, the UK (including Jersey, Anguilla, the British Virgin Islands, Gibraltar), Ukraine, Montenegro, Switzerland, Albania, Andorra, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Monaco, Norway, San Marino, North Macedonia, and also Japan, South Korea, Australia, Micronesia, New Zealand, Singapore, and Taiwan (considered a territory of China, but ruled by its own administration since 1949).

The countries and territories mentioned in the list imposed or joined the sanctions against Russia after the start of a special military operation of the Russian Armed Forces in Ukraine.

The government noted that according to this decree, Russian citizens and companies, the state itself, its regions and municipalities that have foreign exchange obligations to foreign creditors from the list of unfriendly countries will be able to pay them in rubles. The new temporary procedure applies to payments exceeding 10 mln rubles per month (or a similar amount in foreign currency).

I guess that means all that oil and gas can be paid for in rubles as well

[DRG]

Ashamed about the STRELA's if true, they at least might've been effective to a degree against the Russia helicopters.

What seemed odd about that report from the start was they ( theoretically ) would not have had them all that long but reported 700 didn't work...... that's a lot of missiles flying around. I realize there are a lot of targets but still, it seems odd in that short of time it would be known that out of 2700 reported that they PLANNED to send on March 3 that it would be known in so short a time that 700 failed to fire

It doesn't add up

[Aeraaa]

I see that base Ukraine stats will get a massive rework next update. I've checked right now and in 2022 they are 52/63 XP/morale. They definitely were too harsh on Ukrainians, although I'm not sure if 68/70 is closer to the truth. I'd tweak them more towards 66/68.

[carp]

How is everyone adjusting for the dismal performance of Russian armor in UA? I've lowered quite a bit of numbers, but I can't quite get the APS to give me any flexibility. Breakdowns I can't seem to influence either.

[DRG]

What everyone is seeing is what the Ukrainians and their supporters want you to see and I am NOT saying it's wrong but it is the reality.

Nobody who is not there can possibly be is seeing the whole picture from the POV of both sides and I doubt that few who are there are seeing the whole picture either.

We see lots of wrecked Russian equipment but the Russians keep making gains ( or so it seems albeit slowly. It's almost if they want to make as big a mess as possible )

Any modern MBT taken from the side with an ATGM or even one of the better AT weapons is going to end up a flaming wreck and you can test that theory in the game yourself

Yes we upped the EXP/MOR of the Ukrainians as it was originally based on 2014 performance but we are NOT going to endlessly change it so WYSIWYG and if you don't like it that's why there is a troops quality button in the preferences screen and you can dial it up or down however you think is right

There was an interesting comment about that in a MSM article


But attrition is not a one-way street, and what is far less clear is the level of losses sustained by Ukrainian forces, with no equivalent social media avalanche from the Russian side parading this, and Ukraine understandably not wanting to advertise its setbacks.

EDIT. What I heard on the news tonight ( FWIW ) is that it's been estimated ( but I don't know by who ) and Russia has lost 10% of the forces that went in... but so has Ukraine ( and the bigger battalions win )

Also just read Russia lost a Major General recently

[MarkSheppard]

What seemed odd about that report from the start was they ( theoretically ) would not have had them all that long but reported 700 didn't work...... that's a lot of missiles flying around. I realize there are a lot of targets but still, it seems odd in that short of time it would be known that out of 2700 reported that they PLANNED to send on March 3 that it would be known in so short a time that 700 failed to fire

It doesn't add up

military stuff gets issued in batches and lot numbers, all of which have serials. Ukraine could have encountered a "failure to fire" rate that was unacceptably high in some batches of SA-7s sent to them by Germany, and unilaterally decided that those entire batches are to be considered "bad", rather than try and take the time to figure out which ones may still work.

[Mobhack]

Ashamed about the STRELA's if true, they at least might've been effective to a degree against the Russia helicopters.

What seemed odd about that report from the start was they ( theoretically ) would not have had them all that long but reported 700 didn't work...... that's a lot of missiles flying around. I realize there are a lot of targets but still, it seems odd in that short of time it would be known that out of 2700 reported that they PLANNED to send on March 3 that it would be known in so short a time that 700 failed to fire

It doesn't add up

Apparently if you do the long-term service check for those missiles (which has been now done after the pull-out from long storage it would seem) it involves a full strip down to the motor core component level. Also a very critical part seems to be the ejection/launching charge as well.

Look inside these parts and if you see cracks in the solid fuel, then it is toast - so back to the factory or (since that is not possible here) - off to the bin with it.

(From some discussion I read somewhere on t'inernet - maybe tanknet forums?)

[MarkSheppard]

How is everyone adjusting for the dismal performance of Russian armor in UA? I've lowered quite a bit of numbers, but I can't quite get the APS to give me any flexibility. Breakdowns I can't seem to influence either.

Crossposted from another thread:

I wouldn't go so far as to demand active protection system (APS) changes.

I've looked into this myself as I have a Ukraine scenario pushed out.

From photographic evidence of abandoned/captured T-90A Vladimirs in Ukraine, they have been equipped with the Shtora APS Countermeasure system which includes two IR Dazzler/Jammers, plus a smoke grenade system integrated with early warning systems.

This level of APS does NOT include active counter-munitions; and in playtests, it provides protection against Javelin by degrading missile accuracy, but doesn't make T-80s invulnerable.

The Russians have been "testing" next generation APS (Arena-M and Afganit) which include active counter-munitions on and off since the early 2000s; but nothing has been procured in numbers -- I guess we all know where the money for that went, to oligarch dachas and mega yachts.

[Karagin]

Did anyone notice we are not seeing the T-14s being used in Ukraine?

[DRG]

SPECULATION there a plenty of other tanks available that have been in service for some time that crews are fully trained on. The T-14 is still undergoing field trials (IIRC).

Yes, this would be a good place to do "field trials" but OTOH you wouldn't really want to take the chance that one, or more might be destroyed or break down and be captured. It would be quite a propaganda coup for Ukraine to show a destroyed one to the world

Plus I suspect ( more speculation) that this "'special military operation' " was expected to be over quickly and bringing them into it was thought unnecessary.

[Aeraaa]

Did anyone notice we are not seeing the T-14s being used in Ukraine?

I can hardly see T90s, let alone T14s.

[Karagin]

Did anyone notice we are not seeing the T-14s being used in Ukraine?

I can hardly see T90s, let alone T14s.

Seen claims of T90s running around, but as I said we don't see their "super" tanks doing all they claimed and DRG points out the big issue, this wasn't supposed to drag on or at least not be a mess.

[DRG]

Seen claims of T90s running around, but as I said we don't see their "super" tanks doing all they claimed and DRG points out the big issue, this wasn't supposed to drag on or at least not be a mess.

Yes a mess indeed and thinking that in the planning for this "special military operation" the deaths of two Major Generals wasn't expected.....Sukhovetsky first and recently Gerasimov

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/08/vitaly-gerasimov-second-russian-general-killed-ukraine-defence-ministry-claims


The intelligence arm of the Ukrainian defence ministry said Maj Gen Vitaly Gerasimov, chief of staff of the 41st Army, had been killed outside the eastern Ukrainian city of Kharkiv, along with other senior officers.The investigative journalism agency Bellingcat said it had confirmed Gerasimov’s death with a Russian source.


Bad enough to lose two senior officers but the Ukrainian Defence ministry is also reported to be claiming

what it claimed was a conversation between two Russian FSB officers discussing the death and complaining that their secure communications were no longer functioning inside Ukraine.


IF that is all true it does not paint a very good picture but the most important part of that is "IF that is all true"

If you want to mess with the other side's military intelligence then having two guys talking over unsecured communication is a great way to find out if that communication is being monitored because you know a death like that would be reported


Then the next question is what are the Ukrainians ( or their supporters ) doing that is negating Russian secure transmissions and we may never know

[Pibwl]

Ashamed about the STRELA's if true, they at least might've been effective to a degree against the Russia helicopters.

What seemed odd about that report from the start was they ( theoretically ) would not have had them all that long but reported 700 didn't work...... that's a lot of missiles flying around. I realize there are a lot of targets but still, it seems odd in that short of time it would be known that out of 2700 reported that they PLANNED to send on March 3 that it would be known in so short a time that 700 failed to fire

It doesn't add up

When this subject appeared on 4 March, Strelas had not been sent by that date, and only German Spiegel magazine revealed (what for?...), that according to Waffenamt (or something similar) report, probably only around 2000 of 2700 are useful. By that date there was no decision taken to send them. Bundeswehr answered anyway, that all equipment would be verified before sending.

[Pibwl]

I can hardly see T90s, let alone T14s.

At least 14 T-90 were lost according to https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html?fbclid=IwAR0e-f-sGktP-T0uL8JOdjMhnPNxORryp3n0IKHCWpT15wrtv6kT1iUSBdA

[MarkSheppard]

what it claimed was a conversation between two Russian FSB officers discussing the death and complaining that their secure communications were no longer functioning inside Ukraine.

I think a bit more explanation is needed here.

Christo Grozev on Twitter:

In the phone call in which the FSB officer assigned to the 41st Army reports the death to his boss in Tula, he says they've lost all secure communications. Thus the phone call using a local sim card. Thus the intercept.

The idiots tried to use the Era cryptophones in Kharkiv, after destroying many 3g cell towers and also replacing others with stingrays. Era needs 3g/4g to communicate.

The Russian army is equipped with secure phones that can't work in areas where the Russian army operates.

This explains why no EW war in Ukraine -- the Russians need commercial 3G/4G bandwidth to run the ERA cryptophones.

This may not be as crazy as it sounds. I think ERA was meant to be a secure portable cryptophone for use within "normal" areas -- i.e. Moscow, St. Petersburg, etc by FSB/SVR/Defense Ministry officers.

There may also be a shortage extending from squad level radios (hence use of Chinese Baofeng unencrypted radios) all the way up to field grade satellite cryptophones -- forcing the Russians to use these 3G/4G only capable crypto phones for higher staff HQs, which in turn forced them to dial back the EW war.

[DRG]

Christo Grozev on Twitter:

The Russian army is equipped with secure phones that can't work in areas where the Russian army operates.

:eek:

:doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:

I love it...... Hmmmmm thinking of a word that begins with "cluster" ......

[Karagin]

Christo Grozev on Twitter:

The Russian army is equipped with secure phones that can't work in areas where the Russian army operates.

:eek:

:doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:

I love it...... Hmmmmm thinking of a word that begins with "cluster" ......

Seen the US military have commo issues even when they have networks up and running.

[DRG]

It's one thing to have com problems.
It's a whole other level of "oops" to knock out all the subsystems you need to make them work though

[wulfir]

Footage of an ambush against a Russian tank/mech column with what appears to be infantry with close range AT weapons:

https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1502388123963207683

Google map of the location, street view possible:

https://www.google.com.ua/maps/place/%D0%91%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8B,+%D0%9A %D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F+%D0%BE% D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C,+%D0%A3%D0%BA% D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0/@50.6146935,30.8612208,737m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x40d4dbd17dd51cef:0xf6ebb 2dcfc8e9689!8m2!3d50.511083!4d30.7909?hl=ru&authuser=0

[DRG]

The problem with these things from the firers POV is the smoke trace that points to exactly where it was fired from.

That may not be true for all types but it certainly was for what was used there

[MarkSheppard]

https://twitter.com/Liveuamap/status/1501991946851655684?s=20&t=OnQETaOU7x426LIf2KCZBw

Some trolling from Ukraine:

Head of Anti-corruption agency of Ukraine sent a letter to Russian defense minister Shoigu thanking him for embezzlement of Russian army

https://nazk.gov.ua/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Lyst-SHojgu.pdf

НАЦІОНАЛЬНЕ АГЕНТСТВО З ПИТАНЬ ЗАПОБІГАННЯ КОРУПЦІЇ
Повітрофлотський пр-т, 27, м. Київ, 03049

NATIONAL AGENCY ON CORRUPTION PREVENTION
27, Povitroflots'kyi Ave, 03049, Kyiv, Ukraine

1012, № OA OA I AOA 11 - 21 Ha №

від________________

Министру оборони российской федерации

Сергею Кужугетовичу ШОЙГУ

БЛАГОДАРСТВЕННОЕ ПИСЬМО

Национальное агентство по предотвращению коррупции (далее - Агентство) поддерживает всех представителей иностранньїх государств, которьте способствуют развитию украинских антикоррупционньїх органов, а также помогают в усиленим демократических институтов в У крайнє.

В связи с отим Агентство вьіражает искреннюю благодарность Министру оборонні российской федерации Сергею Кужугетовичу Шойгу за неоценимьій вклад в то, что российские средства и ресурсьі обеспечения для нападения на Украину бьіли разворованьї еще на зтапе их накопления на границе двух государств.

Участвуя в методической, системной и долговременной работе по хищению бюджетних средств российской федерации, которьіе вьіделялись на развитие воєнного потенциала, Сергей Шойгу вместе с другими должностньїми лицами оборонного сектора способствовал ускорению ликвидации оккупантов на землях суверенного государства Украиньї.

Настойчивое стремление должностньїх лиц Министерства оборони и вооруженньїх сил российской федерации присвоить средства российских налогоплательщиков, которне должньї били пойти на нужди армии, существенно облегчают защиту демократической Украиньї.

Благодаря зтому украинские антикоррупционньїе институции, которьіе работают для обеспечения прозрачности использования публичннх средств, противодействуют коррупции, мошенничеству и зкономической преступности, смогут как можно бистреє возобновить свою деятельность вместо того, чтобьі тратить время на уничтожение оккупантов на своей земле, а также металлолома, привезенного иними на территорию нашего государства.

Примерами зтой безусловно важной деятельности являются множество фактов, которие смогли документально подтвердить военнослужащие и работники украинской разведки.

В частности, искренний восторг вьізьівает защита российских танков Т-72 и Т-80, сделанная из картонних лотков из-под яиц. Без сомнения зти средства защитн военной техники заслуживают того, чтобьі стать отдельньїм фактором оценки в Индексе сильї (Powerindex) при формировании рейтинги сильнейших армий мира Global Firepower.

Также Агентство вьіражает глубокую благодарность за использование для целей передвижения личного состава ЗИЛ-ІЗО, аналогов которому в мире нет. Кроме очевидного комфорта, которьій ощугцают российские военньїе в открьітом кузове при украинских мартовских морозах, скорость передвижения данного транспортного средства, а также яркий аквамариновий цвет кузова, позволяют силам местной территориальной обороньї зффективно проходить тренировочную подготовку по зксплуатации современного вооружения по легким мишеням.

Отдельной благодарности также заслуживает обеспечение российских воєнних продовольственньїми наборами, срок годности которьіх истек еще в 2015 году. Из-за отсутствия продовольствия российские оккупационньїе войска бросают воєнную технику и сдаются местньїм жителям украинских сел для того, чтобьі поесть.

Также восхищение вьізьівают бронежилетьі, изготовленньїе из картона, вместо бронированньїх пластин, которьіе бьіли надетьі на членов зкипажа захваченного российского бронеавтомобиля «Барнаул-Т».

Бронежилетьі сказались настолько крепкими, что бьіли поврежденьї обьічньїм стрелковьім оружием. В связи с зтим вьіражаем отдельную благодарность, ведь теперь бронеавтомобиль несет службу в рядах сил обороньї Украиньї и помогает противостоять агрессору.

Хотим также обратить внимание на то, что на месте бронированньїх пластин бьіла обнаружена памятка «О порядке вьіявления коррупционньїх и других нарушений при вьіявлении конфликта интересов в воєнних подразделениях».

Под впечатлением от такой основательной и детализированной методологической поддержки военнослужащих оккупационньїх войск, зкспертьі Агентства подготовили ряд рекомендаций для дальнейшего включення в соответствующие бюллетени.

Так, согласно с общепринятьім определением конфликт интересов - зто наличие у лица частного интереса в сфере, в которой оно вьшолняет свои служебньїе или представительские полномочия, что может повлиять на обьективность или беспристрастность принятия им решений.

Видим риск в том, что, несмотря на наличие мобильньїх крематориев, привезенньїх на территорию Украиньї командованием генерального штаба вооружснньїх сил российской федерации, частньїй интерес российского военнослужащего сохранить свою жизнь вместо вьшолнения приказов его командования, все еще крайнє вьісок. В связи с зтим предлагаем уменьшить вероятность конфликта интересов, дополнив бюллетени следующей пошаговой инструкцией:

«В случае пересечения границьі с Украиной российский военнослужащий обязан:

- добраться до ближайшего населенного пункта;

- отойти от техники на безопасное расстояние и бросить оружие;

- попросить прощення за пересечение границьі без паспортного контроля;

- подождать украинских воєнних, которие позволят позвонить маме;

- ждать своего возвращения домой.»

Надеемся на плодотворнеє сотрудничество по учету наших рекомендаций.

В приложении к благодарственному письму отправляем фотографии, иллюстрирующие вьішеупомянутьіе достижения. Отправляем письмо сейчас, пока на россии еще єсть иностранная компьютерная техника, которая позволяет просмотреть соответствующие фотографии.

Глава

Александр НОВИКОВ

----------------


Космічні технології кумулятивного захисту російських танків Т-72 і Т-80 виявилися картонними контейнерами для яєць...

Приложение №2

Приложение №3

2017 г.

ПАМЯТКА подразделениям по профилактике коррупционньїх II ИІІЬІХ

правонарушений (должностньїм лицам, ответственньїм за работу по профилактике коррупционньїх н иньїх правопарушений)

по порядку виявлення копфликта интересов

Приложение № 4

To the Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation

Sergei Kuzhugetovich SHOIG

THANK YOU LETTER

The National Agency for the Prevention of Corruption (hereinafter referred to as the Agency) supports all representatives of foreign countries who promote the development of Ukrainian anti-corruption bodies, as well as assist in strengthening democratic institutions in Ukraine.

In this regard, the Agency expresses its sincere gratitude to the Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation Sergei Kuzhugetovich Shoigu for his invaluable contribution to the fact that Russia's funds and resources for the attack on Ukraine were stolen even at the stage of their accumulation on the border.

Participating in methodical, systematic and long-term work on embezzlement of the Russian Federation's budget funds, which were allocated for the development of military potential, Sergei Shoigu, along with other defense officials, helped accelerate the elimination of occupiers in the sovereign state of Ukraine.

The persistent desire of officials of the Ministry of Defense and the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation to appropriate the funds of Russian taxpayers, which should be used for the needs of the army, significantly facilitates the defense of a democratic Ukraine.

Thanks to this, Ukrainian anti-corruption institutions, which work to ensure transparency in the use of public funds, combat corruption, fraud and economic crime, will be able to resume their activities as soon as possible instead of spending time destroying the occupiers on their land and metal. the territory of our state.

Examples of this certainly important activity are many facts that could be documented by servicemen and Ukrainian intelligence officers.

In particular, the protection of Russian T-72 and T-80 tanks, made of cardboard trays made of eggs, is a source of sincere delight. Undoubtedly, these means of protection of military equipment deserve to become a separate factor in the evaluation of the Powerindex (Powerindex) in the formation of ratings of the world's strongest armies Global Firepower.

The Agency also expresses its deep gratitude for the use of ZIL-IZO personnel, which has no analogues in the world, for the purposes of movement. In addition to the obvious comfort of the Russian military in the open body during the Ukrainian March frosts, the speed of the vehicle, as well as the bright aquamarine color of the body, allow the local territorial defense forces to effectively undergo training in the use of modern light weapons.

Special thanks are also due to the provision of the Russian military with food kits, the expiration date of which expired in 2015. Due to the lack of food, the Russian occupation forces abandon military equipment and surrender to the locals of Ukrainian villages in order to eat.

Also admiring are the bulletproof vests made of cardboard, instead of armored plates, which were worn on members of the crew of the captured Russian armored car "Barnaul-T".

The bulletproof vests were so strong that they were damaged by ordinary small arms. In this regard, we express special gratitude, because now the armored car is serving in the ranks of the Defense Forces of Ukraine and helps to resist the aggressor.

We would also like to draw your attention to the fact that a memo "On the procedure for detecting corruption and other violations in the detection of conflicts of interest in military units" was found at the site of the armored plates.

Impressed by such thorough and detailed methodological support of the occupying forces, the Agency's experts prepared a number of recommendations for further inclusion in the relevant bulletins.

Thus, according to the generally accepted definition, a conflict of interest is that a person has a private interest in the field in which he or she exercises his or her official or representative powers, which may affect the objectivity or impartiality of his or her decision-making.

We see a risk that, despite the presence of mobile crematoria brought to Ukraine by the command of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, the private interest of the Russian serviceman to save his life instead of following his command's orders is still extremely high. In this regard, we propose to reduce the likelihood of conflict of interest by supplementing the bulletins with the following step-by-step instructions:

"In case of crossing the border with Ukraine, a Russian serviceman must:

- get to the nearest settlement;

- move away from the equipment to a safe distance and drop your weapon;

- apologize for crossing the border without passport control;

- wait for the Ukrainian military, who will call my mother;

- wait for your return home. "

We hope for more fruitful cooperation in taking into account our recommendations.

In the appendix to the letter of thanks we send photos illustrating the above-mentioned achievements. We are sending the letter now, while there is still foreign computer equipment in Russia, which allows you to view the relevant photos.

Chapter

Alexander NOVIKOV

...

https://i.redd.it/wmeeut66eil81.png

Space technologies of cumulative protection of Russian tanks T-72 and T-80 turned out to be cardboard containers for eggs ...

Basically, in some Russian ERA packages; they have cardboard spacers that look like egg containers that help keep the ERA blocks aligned properly within the package:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/491788609276608574/949568887891062794/unknown-10.png

It's looking like people never manufacturered the ERA blocks and inserted them; instead doubling up on cardboard spacers and bribing the inspectors to "certify" the armor as passing state inspection standards, and pocketing the money :shock:

[DRG]

:doh:

That is from a short video HERE (https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/t4569d/ukrainian_civilians_discover_2_abandoned_russian/)

[DRG]

https://globalnews.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/CP152254973-e1646986034554.jpg?w=2048Note the Blue with Yellow strip paint on at least one Ukrainian BTR

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16642&stc=1&d=1647092125

[wulfir]

The problem with these things from the firers POV is the smoke trace that points to exactly where it was fired from.

That may not be true for all types but it certainly was for what was used there

I saw one claim that two types were used, the first firing being blacker smoke which is to have missed and the one with whiter smoke being a Rb 57 as it produces two puffs of smoke (a function which supposedly makes it possible to fire from confined spaces).

Here's a slowed down video with the stills edited out. Looks like one of the tanks returning fire takes a direct front hit from another inf-AT weapon (at about 00:51).

https://twitter.com/theRightMikke/status/1502550478281920516?s=20&t=3lVQ2jkXd6QHF13SaoROPg

Also saw a claims that the Russian unit was identified as a Battalion Tactical Group of the 6th Tank Regiment (90th Guards Tank Division) which is later to have continued advancing down the road towards the village of SKYBYN and there running into Ukrainian T-64 tanks, been subject to Ukrainian artillery after which the Russians turned around and retreated. Supposedly the defending units were from the UA 72nd Mech Brigade. Russian tanks claimed to be T-72As. The commander of the Russian 6th Tank Regiment is to have been killed.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Danspiun/status/1502001295225495557

Seems like a decent scenario right there. Only, the game AI will probably do a better job at fighting than the actual Russian army...

[DRG]

Seems like a decent scenario right there. Only, the game AI will probably do a better job at fighting than the actual Russian army...

If you build it I will include it

[blazejos]

Just d'like to add some info about Ukrainian captured equipment on invaders side

Kozak Varta armoured cars with NLAW in DPR hands https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/tcg7rx/ukrainian_armored_vehicles_kozak_and_varta_as/

HMMWV also in DPR https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/tcj1il/captured_hmmwv/

Sommetimes tanks switches sides two times like this Ukrainian T-64BV
https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/ta27ct/ukranian_t64bv_that_was_previously_captured_and/

BTR-4 with new owners
https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/t9ty3q/captured_ukranian_btr4/

And here photo from Volnovakha captured T-64 by Ukrainians

https://i.redd.it/37grixwsbsm81.jpg

And here video manual for Ukrainian ordinary soldiers how drive a T-72 :D
if you found them only scratched in drivable condition
https://youtu.be/Jp7L4MhRkTQ

MkV from Kharkiv from city centre square before this war hope he will survive destruction of the city and we can see that tank in future not so many of them still existing and take parts in all this wars since WWI

https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/t91zud/mark_v_tank_in_kharkiv_will_these_tanks_get/

[DRG]

MkV from Kharkiv from city centre square before this war hope he will survive destruction of the city and we can see that tank in future not so many of them still existing and take parts in all this wars since WWI

https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/t91zud/mark_v_tank_in_kharkiv_will_these_tanks_get/


https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16646&stc=1&d=1647177514


:)

[DRG]

35 people have been killed after a Ukrainian military base, less than 15 miles from the Polish border, was targeted in a Russian airstrike, the governor of the Lviv region has said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2gmEIrkVgc

[wulfir]

If you build it I will include it

Started to work on some stuff, what is the first free slot?

[DRG]

If you build it I will include it

Started to work on some stuff, what is the first free slot?


Right now it's 443....

[MarkSheppard]

Regarding the use of Ukrainian OOB Units:

061: T-84 Oplot
063: T-84 Oplot+
064: T-84 Oplot-M (aka BM Oplot)

In scenarios....

Wikipedia (i know, I know) says that ten T-84 Oplot were completed; while Laser Shark on Tanknet (https://www.tanknet.org/index.php?/topic/38893-kiev-is-burning/&do=findComment&comment=1583276) pointed out that at least three Oplot-BM were completed, being assigned as such:

1 x to USA for OPFOR
1 x for International Arms Expo Shows
1 x to Ukrainian Army.

Not sure if or where they're going to show up, though, but I suppose it would make sense to group them together with the other T-84s in a single company, and then attach it to some tank battalion.

I checked Ukrainian Wikipedia and found these two articles:

https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2-84%D0%A3_%C2%AB%D0%9E%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%82%C2%B B
https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%9C_%C2%AB%D0%9E%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%82% C2%BB

Basically, Laser Shark was right:

Ukranian Wikipedia says:

The T-84 company took part in the military parade in 2003.

And this Ukrainian Site (https://www.ukrmilitary.com/2018/09/melnyk.html)

says

"Now these machines have been transferred to the 169th Desna Training Center to continue the cycle of operation, where everything possible will be squeezed out of them. The main end result, namely - a serviceable, reliable machine that will meet all the requirements of our tankers."

(169-й навчальний центр «Десна»)

I looked it up:

https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/169-%D0%B9_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%87%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C% D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%86%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%80_% C2%AB%D0%94%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%B0%C2%BB

The 169th Desna Training Center named after Prince Yaroslav the Wise ( 169 NC , unit A0665) is a military unit of the Armed Forces of Ukraine specializing in the training of personnel for various branches of the Land Forces of Ukraine . It reports directly to the command of the ground forces. Located in the village of Desna, Chernihiv region .

If you look up Desna's location on a map... it's just north of Kiev, right along the line of the eastern pincer.

So it looks like the lone T-84 Oplot Company in Ukraine has probably already seen combat (and been wiped out) in fighting against the Eastern Pincer against Kiev.

[DRG]

Thinking though, that had that been the case the Russians would have been releasing lots of photos of Ukraine's top of the line tanks destroyed and that hasn't happened

[Wdll]

Interesting video.
I don't know the exact units in it.
I'm assume the Ukrainian vehicle which is doing the shooting is some form of BTR, where the 2 (or 3?) Russian vehicles are...well the last one looks a lot like a BMP-1, but I leave that to the experts.

Regardless of what exactly they are I find a few interesting things about it, including how the what might be Russian troops taking cover behind the "BMP-1" and possibly having their legs and rest getting...retired. Just taking cover behind the IFV when there are buildings all around then feels a bit...it feels like the Russians are suffering not only from inexperienced young troops, but also for close to non existent officers on the field.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ4Auwi7_FA

[DRG]

Yeah the lower legs of the section were clearly in view of the firing unit and that's not "a good thing"

[DRG]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QW7Nfg4d9I

Russia's latest warning to the West: Russia to target Western arms supply?

[Wdll]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QW7Nfg4d9I

Russia's latest warning to the West: Russia to target Western arms supply?

I assume they are talking about hitting such convoys while inside Ukraine. Anything else would be suicidal.

[DRG]

Yes, it would be. Hitting a convoy inside the borders of a NATO nation would escalate this in ways we can only imagine very quickly.

OTOH once they cross the border into Ukraine they are fair targets so. "convoys" of trucks should be "off the table"... individual trucks moving at night will probably be the New Normal

Though the way this has been going they are more likely to hit an aid convoy of diapers and formula instead of a weapons convoy

[DRG]

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/in-kyiv-political-leader-kira-rudyk-has-her-rifle-ready-im-on-putins-kill-list


in part

“NATO doesn’t want to create World War Three, but World War Three is on already. Do you think if Russia uses nuclear weapons the radiation will care who has a NATO passport or not? Do you think there will only be 2.5 million refugees leaving Ukraine? There will be many times more and it will be Europe’s problem. Do you think Putin will stop in Ukraine? He wants Poland, Ukraine and the Baltics at least.”

[Karagin]

The convoys enter at their own risk. Not saying the Russian won't attack them, but if you are entering a country in the middle of a war, it's a risk you run.

[wulfir]

Russia seems to struggle with night fighting. Probably do not have much in the way of dependable long range recon assets either. IIRC in Syria it took them something like 24 hours to mount an airstrike on a target - if the target was not static and had moved, yeah it became a problem.

Will they even be able to detect a convoy in the first place?

[carp]

Maybe people don't realize how far ahead of the curve the development team of Win SPMBT were/are by displaying the ascendancy of infantry over armor. The most recent fracas in Ukraine has mirrored the capabilities incredibly well. I play by myself, and mostly create Assault/Defend scenarios, or Advance defend. The defensive side rarely gets much heavy armor. Instead I rely on infantry to do the job. This reflects well what has happened during the past three weeks. So I have to express kudos for that level of detail. It really seems more of reality reflecting the game than the game reflecting vice versa.

I think the rise was displayed very well during the Yom Kippur War kit, but then Desert Storm and Iraq II kind of put the kabosh on what would really happen when armor is faced with a committed infantry.

I have to make my Assault scenarios even more unbalanced thn the 3/1 point sread because Defense is now almost an arcade setting. I know its a bit dicier than that in Ukraine, however, I also know that tanks are far more visible to ACAV cameras than are infantry squads in cover. It helps, too, that the AI is at least as competent as the Russian command.

[Wdll]

Maybe people don't realize how far ahead of the curve the development team of Win SPMBT were/are by displaying the ascendancy of infantry over armor. The most recent fracas in Ukraine has mirrored the capabilities incredibly well. I play by myself, and mostly create Assault/Defend scenarios, or Advance defend. The defensive side rarely gets much heavy armor. Instead I rely on infantry to do the job. This reflects well what has happened during the past three weeks. So I have to express kudos for that level of detail. It really seems more of reality reflecting the game than the game reflecting vice versa.

I think the rise was displayed very well during the Yom Kippur War kit, but then Desert Storm and Iraq II kind of put the kabosh on what would really happen when armor is faced with a committed infantry.

I have to make my Assault scenarios even more unbalanced thn the 3/1 point sread because Defense is now almost an arcade setting. I know its a bit dicier than that in Ukraine, however, I also know that tanks are far more visible to ACAV cameras than are infantry squads in cover. It helps, too, that the AI is at least as competent as the Russian command.

Don't you think that's a bit rude? I don't think the A.I in this game is even close to the Russian command. Russian command would wish to be as good. As I see it they are closer to the easy difficulty setting of the AI in the game Command and Conquer Red Alert. And that's being polite.

[blazejos]

Real street battle footage Ukr BTR-4 vs Rus BMP-1

https://twitter.com/aldin_ww/status/1503352707251322885?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1503352707251322885%7Ctwgr% 5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tanknet.org%2Findex.php% 3Fapp%3Dcoremodule%3Dsystemcontroller%3Dembedurl%3 Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fi%2Fstatus%2F15033527 07251322885

[DRG]

Real street battle footage Ukr BTR-4 vs Rus BMP-1


That's what Wdll posted earlier today ( 129 )

[carp]

I tried to be kind to the Russians. You know, piling on and all of that.

[DRG]

all small pieces in a very large puzzle



https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/they-are-lying-to-you-tv-news-editor-interrupts-live-broadcast-on-russian-state-tv-with-anti-war-protest-41446828.html

‘They are lying to you’ – TV news editor interrupts live broadcast on Russian state TV with anti-war protest


https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220315-german-wwii-ghosts-loom-large-in-ukraine-crisis

German WWII ghosts loom large in Ukraine crisis


https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/what-ukraines-volodymyr-zelenskyy-is-expected-to-say-in-speech-to-canadas-parliament

Like a good actor, Ukraine's Volodymyr Zelenskyy delivers drama and persuasion

...... on the 23rd anniversary of Poland joining the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (and thus becoming part of NATO’s eastern border with Ukraine), Zelenskyy addressed that nation’s parliament with very different language.


He reminded his next-door neighbours of their shared history and culture. “Together there are 90 million of us,” he said. “Together we can do anything, and it is a historical mission for Poland, and a historical mission for Ukraine, to be the leaders that together will pull Europe out of this abyss.”




"May you live in interesting times............"

....this does qualify as that

[zovs66]

If you build it I will include it

Started to work on some stuff, what is the first free slot?


Right now it's 443....

443 shows as: Cleaning up the Farm 5/2006

523 on my end shows: The Long Night 7/89

Is 443 the last free slot?

[DRG]

This is what my "virgin" game shows

That is what was released last year. Any variation is at your end

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16648&stc=1&d=1647357191


There are also maps in 975-977
936
939
and others scattered here and there after the main body of maps but for the main block the next open slot is 443 and right now those two empty slots before that have maps that will be added in the next update

[zovs66]

Looks like I have not released 523 The Long Night 7/89 yet.

[zovs66]

Sorry my mix up I was thinking of scenarios # and not map #'s.

[Pibwl]

...
The Agency also expresses its deep gratitude for the use of ZIL-IZO personnel, which has no analogues in the world, for the purposes of movement. In addition to the obvious comfort of the Russian military in the open body during the Ukrainian March frosts, the speed of the vehicle, as well as the bright aquamarine color of the body, allow the local territorial defense forces to effectively undergo training in the use of modern light weapons.


Of course, it concerns classic blue ZiL-130 dump trucks :D

https://twitter.com/NAZK_gov/status/1501960834960048128?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

[zovs66]

Interesting and 'fair' from a French site.

https://lavoiedelepee.blogspot.com/

[DRG]

Interesting and 'fair' from a French site.

https://lavoiedelepee.blogspot.com/


Ukrainian anti-aircraft defense still well organized and increasingly dense low-layer defense (Manpads)

That is EXACTLY how a "no fly zone" should work. From the ground up by Ukrainian troops

[Wdll]

It doesn't get much into the military aspects, but I find it a very good interview worth watching.

I completely agree with him. NATO and the West should stop acting so timid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MgZQOkP1yM

[Wdll]

Great footage from inside a (possible) Alligator strafing (kind of) targets and then doing an emergency landing.
Not sure if there were real targets or of they actually hit anything, but interesting footage no matter what.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLa3fZD1vXs

[DRG]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60767454

Ukraine war: Putin has redrawn the world - but not the way he wanted

.......he has failed to understand his own armed forces. It is clear now that he expected this "special military operation" to be over in a few days.

[Wdll]

Even if Putin is removed as a threat, in some way, I am afraid he is going to be a small problem compared to PRC.
The PRC is one of the most undemocratic countries, which still has under occupation Tibet, constantly threatens Taiwan who they don't even see as a separate country (remind you of something?) and they keep improving their economy and their military with (in large parts) Western money.
The same way the West has looked the other way because Russia was providing with raw materials, the same way and even worse the West looks the other way with PRC by having what at times feels like 110% of world industry located there.
HUGE mistake which no one seems to care about.

Imagine if the "good old" USSR instead of forcing it to call it quits, the West was providing her money to keep developing and getting rich.

[Wdll]

Any idea what the second vehicle is? I can't see clearly if it is some type of MBT or BMP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nzaRHecoGU

EDIT: OK it clearly is some type of MBT. Not sure what type, but it looks to me like it gets penned from the side and catches fire.

[DRG]

I found the clearest section of that and straighten it

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16661&stc=1&d=1647952203

Thinking a T72. Note that it does not have the bag mounted ERA on the sides

That's a very short clip but at no time does the Tank do anything so we don't know what happened before. Note the gunner has plenty of time to pick his target low on the hull ( and that guy to the left of the aim point must have just loved having those 30mm rounds whistle passed his head)

The bottom line is what goes into the game is based on what we learn or just sometimes guess based on "official" information and Russia has a LOT of T-72's and ***betting*** they are not all upgraded to the same standard even though outwardly they look similar. If that was an early 72 that was given ERA blocks on the turret it * may * only have the original side armour and those "plates" on the side may just be re-enforced rubber as a RPG deflector. They certainly don't appear to have ERA

By the stats used by the game the "best" Pen for the SABOT rounds used by the 30mm autocannon on a BTR-4 has a Pen of 15 and that could theoretically pen the side hull steel armour of a T-72

BTW.. the recorded sound of that autocannon firing is now in the game for Ukrainian vehicles using that weapon

[DRG]

I am investigating a number of avenues none of which is making my life any easier ATM

IF some of the info I have is correct (IF) many of the "new" upgrades to the T-72 ( and T-80 ) are on old hulls given new ERA, and a host of other items

I have not found any info that the hull sides were given extra armour and IF THAT is the case then these upgraded T-72's while having a number of better bells and whistles still have a side hull in the 8-9 range IF these are old T-72's with the new gadgets added which would mean that yes indeed they would be vulnerable to a 30mm autocannon from the side which is a "really big deal" in RL and the game, especially in an urban setting.

That said there is still much we don't know because the info is not readily available and I am still digging for info'

We did discover a little "oopsie" in the code that has now been corrected in both games. When Country training is turned off and players can dial in a single value the display on the purchase screen only shows the changed EXP rating while MOR does not change but it actually does and that can be seen using the Roster screen in the game..... MOR does change along with EXP ( a couple of lines of code were // commented out that should not have been and it now shows the correct values entered for both)



As well, we are looking into a way to make that a two-part question that will allow EXP and MOR to be adjusted individually but the code for that is less than straightforward so no promises on that but we still remain "hopeful"

[Wdll]

I found the clearest section of that and straighten it

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16661&stc=1&d=1647952203

Thinking a T72. Note that it does not have the bag mounted ERA on the sides

That's a very short clip but at no time does the Tank do anything so we don't know what happened before. Note the gunner has plenty of time to pick his target low on the hull ( and that guy to the left of the aim point must have just loved having those 30mm rounds whistle passed his head)

The bottom line is what goes into the game is based on what we learn or just sometimes guess based on "official" information and Russia has a LOT of T-72's and ***betting*** they are not all upgraded to the same standard even though outwardly they look similar. If that was an early 72 that was given ERA blocks on the turret it * may * only have the original side armour and those "plates" on the side may just be re-enforced rubber as a RPG deflector. They certainly don't appear to have ERA

By the stats used by the game the "best" Pen for the SABOT rounds used by the 30mm autocannon on a BTR-4 has a Pen of 15 and that could theoretically pen the side hull steel armour of a T-72

BTW.. the recorded sound of that autocannon firing is now in the game for Ukrainian vehicles using that weapon

Just one thing I noticed. After the first couple of shots, the "T-72" starts moving "back". Something which I am sure you noticed too. The weird thing is why the turret doesn't seem to be turning at all when the Ukrainians firing at it again. My guess is either only the driver was alive, or perhaps the crew abandoned to tank before it was destroyed. If not for the actual deaths of people, very interesting footage, among other footage.

[Wdll]

I am investigating a number of avenues none of which is making my life any easier ATM

IF some of the info I have is correct (IF) many of the "new" upgrades to the T-72 ( and T-80 ) are on old hulls given new ERA, and a host of other items

I have not found any info that the hull sides were given extra armour and IF THAT is the case then these upgraded T-72's while having a number of better bells and whistles still have a side hull in the 8-9 range IF these are old T-72's with the new gadgets added which would mean that yes indeed they would be vulnerable to a 30mm autocannon from the side which is a "really big deal" in RL and the game, especially in an urban setting.

That said there is still much we don't know because the info is not readily available and I am still digging for info'

We did discover a little "oopsie" in the code that has now been corrected in both games. When Country training is turned off and players can dial in a single value the display on the purchase screen only shows the changed EXP rating while MOR does not change but it actually does and that can be seen using the Roster screen in the game..... MOR does change along with EXP ( a couple of lines of code were // commented out that should not have been and it now shows the correct values entered for both)



As well, we are looking into a way to make that a two-part question that will allow EXP and MOR to be adjusted individually but the code for that is less than straightforward so no promises on that but we still remain "hopeful"

While clearly not the case with this encounter, I have seen in the past days videos and photos of "fake" era packages on Russian tanks. Either empty or not having actual explosives in them. I am not mentioning it for game purposes, after all I have no idea how that could be implemented in the game without more info. I just find it so weird and so...who knows how many yachts were bought instead of upgrading these units.

[Mobhack]

Apparently, the HE found in Russian ERA blocks is quite the valuable trading commodity, often being sold off by units to "fishermen" for cash or booze. Thus the HE part is often not routinely fitted, also for peacetime safety reasons of course. Those things are after all live munitions like hand grenades so should not be filled until the baloon goes up.

As the invading units were "on excercises" before they got the orders to go into Ukraine, I wonder how many units went in with unfilled ERA blocks due to having no HE charges to fill them on hand (whether traded or routinely kept unloaded by safety policies), or insufficient time to load them while also bombing up the tanks with live war loads when they pivoted to actual war status?

[shahadi]

While clearly not the case with this encounter, I have seen in the past days videos and photos of "fake" era packages on Russian tanks. Either empty or not having actual explosives in them. I am not mentioning it for game purposes, after all I have no idea how that could be implemented in the game without more info. I just find it so weird and so...who knows how many yachts were bought instead of upgrading these units.

It would not surprise me to learn the era packages were first pilfered before videos made.

[Wdll]

Not sure if it is real or not, but interesting dialogue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2mlqC-c6Cw
Carrying 100s of bodies not being able to take them back.
Not having proper equipment.
Friendly fire.
Russian humor too.
A bit of everything.
Again, no idea if it is real or not.

[DRG]

Ukraine has banned reporting on troop and equipment movements not announced or approved by the military. Journalists who violate the law could face three to eight years in prison.

The restrictions come after Ukrainian authorities criticized social media users who posted photos or videos of troop movements. In a widely publicized case, a Kyiv resident was accused by the security services of posting images on TikTok showing Ukrainian military vehicles near a shopping mall that was later destroyed by a Russian missile strike. Russia alleged Ukraine used the site to resupply rocket artillery.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-03-28/zelenskyy-ukraine-seeking-peace-without-delay-in-talks

[Wdll]

Ukraine has banned reporting on troop and equipment movements not announced or approved by the military. Journalists who violate the law could face three to eight years in prison.

The restrictions come after Ukrainian authorities criticized social media users who posted photos or videos of troop movements. In a widely publicized case, a Kyiv resident was accused by the security services of posting images on TikTok showing Ukrainian military vehicles near a shopping mall that was later destroyed by a Russian missile strike. Russia alleged Ukraine used the site to resupply rocket artillery.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-03-28/zelenskyy-ukraine-seeking-peace-without-delay-in-talks

I am surprised it took them this long.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I believe it was last Thur./or Fri. from either a CBS or CNN reporter and camera crew were interviewing a Ukrainian soldier (Rank unknown.) about Russian losses. They were by some railroad tracks with at least 3 or maybe 4 box cars. He took them inside of one of them and their appeared to be about 25 or 30 bodies he identified as Russian soldiers.

So much for "leaving no man behind" but it seems some of the conflicts are swift in nature.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[shahadi]

This video posted on YouTube describes the various letter identifiers used on Russian vehicles.

https://youtu.be/gMh6Ml329VU
<Br>

[shahadi]

Given the reckless statements coming out of Washington over the past several days; in particular language alluding to a regime change in Moscow is frightening. Furthermore, words signalling a change of policy where US forces will employ chemical weapons if Russian forces do is borne out by Biden saying something akin to responding in kind.

Given, these two statements alone, I hope the CNO knows where each Russian boomer is located.

<br>

[MarkSheppard]

Russian tank losses so far in Ukraine for help in designing scenarios.

[lukerduker123]

Russian tank losses so far in Ukraine for help in designing scenarios.

This isn't, of course, including the T-64s lost as well. The terrifying part is that these are only the visually confirmed losses. Russia might have lost even more tanks -- But -62-% of your active T-80 fleet is already a disaster of unmitigated proportion.

[MarkSheppard]

RETAC21 on TankNet posted the following writeup on UKR forces:

Looked at this a bit, the Ukrainian Armed Forces started out with:

- 4 tank brigades (regular: 1, 17. reserve: 3, 4, 5): 1, 17 & 4 with T-64; 4 & 5 with T-72, plus a T-64 equipped independent tank battalion, each with 93 tanks

- 9 mechanised brigades (14, 30, 72, 24, 53, 54, 92, 93, 28): each with a tank battalion with T-64, and with the T-84s with the 14th brigade, each with a 31 tank battalion, except the 92nd which had 2.

- 2 mountain assault brigades (10, 128): each with a tank battalion (T-64)

- 4 motorised infantry brigades (56, 57, 58, 59): each with a tank battalion (T-64)

- 2 reserve mechanised brigades (63, 66): each with a tank battalion, but note the 66th was only active from april

- 2 Marine brigades (35, 36): each with a tank battalion (T-80)

- 6 air assault brigades, each with a 10 tank T-72 company

- 4th National Guard Brigade with a T-64 tank battalion

- the Azov regiment and the 9th NG operational regiment had a T-64 company each

So pre-war that makes 825 T-64, 10 T-84, 246 T-72s and 62 T-80 (1.143 total).

In 2017 Ukraine declared 1.818 tanks covered by the CFE treaty, the 2021 Military balance gives these numbers:

MBT 858:

410 T-64BV; 210 T-64BV mod 2017; 100 T-64BM Bulat (720)

100 T-72AV/B1; 33 T-72AMT (133)

5 T-84 Oplot

(34 T-80; 500 T-72; 578 T-64): 1.112 - it also note 20 T-55s but I guess these are memorials and such.

Losses, who knows... per Lostarmour/Oryx (assume these are about 50-70% of actual losses):

T-64: 211/280

T-72: 66/90

T-80: 24/37

Unk: 34

Supplies:

T-72: 386

M-55S: 28

So far I have seen the following newly set-up units:

- 3 infantry brigades (68, 71, Presidential)

- 1 Mechanised brigade (47) with M-55S

So, 1.818-880+386= 1.324 (without taking into accout tanks that may be damaged and non-operational) vs an establishment of 1.174.

So it seems to me that Ukrainian forces started out the war already understrength (75%), losses and vehicles needing repair would have further cut the numbers, and supplies topped up to establishment, at best. Since the Ukrainian Army was essentially a defensive force, much more would be needed to create a further offensive option (the additional 10 brigades mentioned by Ukrainian generals)

[MarkSheppard]

Tossed these "notes" together -- some of the information is from Wikipedia which had some fairly generic 2018 or so era OBATs for various Ukranian brigade formations.

Some of the numbers may be off from reality - e.g. some people use a 10 tank company, the US uses a 14 tank company, etc etc; but in the end all the numbers come out in the wash; due to "non runners". This will get you "close enough" for realistic scenarios.

================
Generic Artillery Units

6 to 12 make up a battery
18 to 36 make up a battalion

================

Generic Mechanized (Tank/IFV/etc) Unit

1 company = 12 vehicles + 2 vehicle command element (14 vehicles total)
3 companies = battalion (36 combat vehicles + 6 command = 42 vehicles total)
3 battalions = brigade (108 combat vehicles + 18 command = 126 vehicles total)

================

Basic US doctrine in WWII was Two Up / One Back; i.e. while two elements attack, the third is held in reserve.

================

Tank Brigade (Ukraine) -- 93 tanks

3 x Tank Battalions (31 tanks per battalion; 9 tank companies total)
1 x Mechanized Battalion (3 mech companies total)
1 x Brigade Artillery (2 x SPA Battalions, 1 x MRL Battalion)
1 x SAM Battalion
1 x Engineer Battalion
1 x Recon Company
1 x Sniper Company

================

Motorized Brigade (Ukraine)

3 x Motorized Infantry Battalions (9 mot inf companies total)
1 x Brigade Artillery (1 x Howitzer Bn with D-20, 1 x Anti-Tank Battalion with MT-12)
1 x SAM Battalion
1 x Recon Company
1 x Tank Company (10 tanks?)
1 x Engineer Company
1 x Sniper Platoon

============

Mechanized Brigade (Ukraine)

3 x Mechanized Battalions (9 Mech companies total)
1 x Tank Battalion (3 tank companies total)
1 x Brigade Artillery (2 x SPA Battalions, 1 x MRL Battalion, 1 x AT Bn with MT-12)
1 x SAM Battalion
1 x Engineer Battalion
1 x Recon Company
1 x Sniper Company

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

On the Ukrainian tanks numbers for that period those numbrs aren't out of line with some I've seen either up or down.

What is clear and reported by many "respectable" sources is that they have both replenished their loses and have more tanks then when the war started on 24 Feb. 2022.

Of the Russian captured tanks, I'm working on (More on this elsewhere.) for submission which are only 10 types (But have become a headache.) the total comes to 441 as of last Thur./Fri.

Unsubmitted to avoid duplication on tanks that are essentially equal to existing ones from both countries are left out, HOWEVER, it well known that the Ukraine are using them as well. That number is around 70 captured other types including approximately the same falling into the unidentified T-72/80 & 90 series tanks.

Total verified from the same last week is...
Tanks (1610, of which destroyed: 944, damaged: 73, abandoned: 60, captured: 533)

Total all categories is...
Russia - 8634, of which: destroyed: 5408, damaged: 219, abandoned: 298, captured: 2709.

I'm supplying the reference I'm NOT going to debate the merits of this information as I've even seen JANE's mention it and not in a bad way.

Use it as you wish and before you judge it, I would suggest you read the opening paragraph of this ref.
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html

Mark that was some good "Dope" you put out there. ;)

As I was about to leave the ORNX site I came across this by accident "so the road appears to go both ways" which makes me even more comfortable.
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-ukrainian.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[MarkSheppard]

Also, many T-90S export tanks have been found destroyed in Ukraine. Seems the Russians are diverting tanks meant for export from their final customers for internal use. Bet that's winning them friends.

So if you want to simulate this; just set Indian T-90S to captured lol when picking Russian tanks!

[DRG]

That (Perhaps.......) should be done with any Russian vehicle rather than trying to add everything that's been captured to the Ukrainian OOB ( As I have been doing since the last release.) It would save the increasingly few weapons slots left in the Ukrainian OOB. It's a nearly safe bet that any vehicle currently in the Russian OOB for 2022 has had at least one of them captured and re-used by Ukraine

Many weapons are duplicated between the Russian and Ukrainian OOB but many are not and every new vehicle added from "western" stocks uses up to 4 weapon slots

HINDSIGHT is always 20/20 but when we expanded the units and Formations in the OOB's we didn't increase weapons because 2 decades ago the idea that 249 weapon slots could be used up seemed ridiculous ( as would have the idea that we'd still doing this in 2023 and that Russia and Ukraine would fight a major war....)

[MarkSheppard]

That (Perhaps.......) should be done with any Russian vehicle rather than trying to add everything that's been captured to the Ukrainian OOB ( As I have been doing since the last release.)

Proposal: Perhaps limit adding units to the Ukrainian OOB unless:

1.) Enough actually show up in large numbers -- i.e. 12 Challenger IIs, no; 200 M2A2 Bradleys, yes.

and/or

2.) Do the Ukrainians modify it enough during refurbishment to make it unique enough to include?

I think that perhaps it might be worth including a HTML file listing all the weapons that have ended up in Ukraine and the suggested OOBs to buy them from.

HINDSIGHT is always 20/20 but when we expanded the units and Formations in the OOB's we didn't increase weapons because 2 decades ago the idea that 249 weapon slots could be used up seemed ridiculous ( as would have the idea that we'd still doing this in 2023 and that Russia and Ukraine would fight a major war....)

My memory is dim, but I vaguely THINK you did try expanding it to 999 weapon slots years ago to see if it worked; but it broke a lot of other things. :eek:

[DRG]

My memory is dim, but I vaguely THINK you did try expanding it to 999 weapon slots years ago to see if it worked; but it broke a lot of other things. :eek:

Yep. A lot of things. It should have been done when we first expanded the OOB's but at the time 249 slots were considered more than adequate even with the expanded unit count. Now an expansion moves too much saved data for scenarios, save games, and "breaks" just about everything that needs to read weapons data....which is a LOT of things

As for the other issue. Donated or purchased vehicles are definitely going in so all the T-72/ T-55 variants from neighbouring former Warsaw pact nations for sure are being added. it's the captured Russian tanks that are under review and no decision has been made. I have been adding them as they are reported but the allied/captured button allows this without cluttering up the Ukrainian OOB so pulling the former Russian captures out is under consideration because that is what the allied/captured button was intended for.

Another issue in regards to weapons is in the majority of cases the secondary weapons used by donated or purchased vehicles can mostly be found already in the Ukrainian OOB but adding each, named light calibre weapon for things like the AMX or Bradley rapidly uses slots and all the 7.62 and 12.7s do the same thing in the same way so I have set up "generic" 7.62 CMG etc for vehicles arriving in Ukraine from non-former WP nations. That simplifies adding them with no effect on gameplay and saves the remaining weapons slots for any potentially more major weapons systems that might one day arrive. A "generic" 7.62 AAMG or CMG does the same thing in the game as a "named" one but even with that 80% of the weapons slots have already been used in the Ukrainian OOB and I would like to keep those for something other than MG's

[MarkSheppard]

I'm just spitballing, but I'm wondering whether it might be worth creating a OOB just for this war?

I.e., activate the unused OOB94 "For R&D only" and make it so that when you hold the SHIFT key, OOB94 replaces GREEN on the various encyclopedia/battle editing screens.

No AI, no picklists, etc; because you've got the main Ukrainian and Russian OOBs for that; it's only purpose is to hold all the one-offs and stuff coming from this war to be bought as captured equipment.

[DRG]

With what's already available to players using the captured button a " War in Ukraine" OOB is not needed

[Mobhack]

The main problem with the use of "set captured" is that the stuff from a forign OOB cannot be used for campaign cores. So only of use for scenarios or stand-alone battles.

However, I intend to see if there is a way to "set as core" for "foreign" stuff - fingers crossed:)!

[DRG]

This could be helpful but OTOH "captures" like this are rarely an "en masse" event that would allow full formations.... ones and twos are much more probable so having them outside the core is not at all unrealistic

[DRG]

.......and in related news.......( FWIW)


https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/12/05/the-m-113-troop-carrier-is-old-and-lightly-armored-its-also-helping-ukraine-win-the-war-with-russia/?sh=65c7b6585562


By and large, the ex-Russian vehicles are in bad shape. Not just from battle-damage, but also from years of sloppy maintenance by unhappy Russian conscripts and corrupt contractors. It can take weeks or months for Ukrainian technicians to restore a captured Russian vehicle.

So there may be reports of them being used on the front quickly, but the reality for most of these captures *may* be somewhat different

[Suhiir]

According to recent news there have been a number of Russian vehicles captured in "pristine" (for used vehicles) condition as some Russian units are abandoning significant quantities of vehicles (presumably due to limited fuel availability).

[DRG]

If this is happening widespread it is significant. Localized not so much

[lukerduker123]

Just a reminder, if it isn't already implemented, that the heavy use od mines in Ukraine means it might be best if they're taken off the Ottawa convention list.

[Suhiir]

I found this interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_7ykSuCWK8

[DRG]

I found this interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_7ykSuCWK8

Yep.

This was "supposed" to be over quickly. Guessing Putin was assured 2-3 weeks tops.... again speculation but guessing it was supposed to be all done and dusted around the time they pulled back from Bucha which was the end of March

[DRG]

Just a reminder, if it isn't already implemented, that the heavy use of mines in Ukraine means it might be best if they're taken off the Ottawa convention list.


Just because there is "heavy use of mines in Ukraine" does NOT mean Ukraine is using them

The Ottawa treaty was a "wonderful" virtue signalling idea for nations that knew they would never be put into a situation where they would need to lay mines for defence.

The rest quietly put them into storage or at least keep all the machinery needed to make them well-maintained in storage

THAT SAID I can find LOTS of reports that Russia is using them ( but they didn't sign )...

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/09/15/russia-ukraine-land-mines/
https://www.wired.com/story/russian-landmines-ukraine-psychological-warfare/

...... but I have not read anything about their being used BY Ukraine but that doesn't mean anything ,,, the info that they are could be suppressed... or the info could be coming from Russia which means nothing much really..... it's easy to say the other side is doing exactly what you are doing to justify what you are doing.... so what sources do you have that support this ???

[MarkSheppard]

Human Rights Watch has accused Ukraine of using rocket delivered FASCAM AP mines.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/01/31/ukraine-banned-landmines-harm-civilians

In 2021, Ukraine reported to the UN secretary-general that 3.3 million stockpiled PFM mines still need to be destroyed. According to Ukrainian officials, the only type of antipersonnel mines remaining in Ukraine’s stockpiles are PFM mines contained in 9M27K3 220mm rockets.

[DRG]

And the critical word there is "accused". Human Rights Watch go on to say the Ukraine military " appear to have" used them

It's established fact that Russia is using them but Russia didn't sign the treaty

It's also interesting that all the mines are Russian in Origin but given the past connection between Ukraine and Russia that's not a surprise

The really important point is this is a GAME forum and in this GAME Ukraine cannot place mines in 2022-2023. If THE GAME was allowing that then there would be an issue. The game does not so maybe this need to be taken up in the Human Rights Watch forum but I am NOT going to restore Ukraines ability to place mines based on accusations originating with the Russians who are known to use mines

[Suhiir]

The Ottawa treaty was a "wonderful" virtue signalling idea for nations that knew they would never be put into a situation where they would need to lay mines for defence.

The rest quietly put them into storage or at least keep all the machinery needed to make them well-maintained in storage

At least Biden's recent virtue signaling said the US would continue to use mines in Korea.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

POTUS's virtue has gone above and beyond then because we are sending Taiwan the VOLCANO battlefield mining system.

We didn't sign all parts of the OTTAWA Treaty, and this is an example of how we got around it (As we do have the anti-personnel canisters for ourselves.) on the non-proliferation issue by NOT sending Taiwan the anti-personal canisters we'll instead we'll be sending them ONLY the anti-tank ones. Which fulfills our obligations. You can read the rest for yourselves.
https://www.popsci.com/technology/us-selling-taiwan-volcano-mine-dispenser-systems/
https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2023/01/17/2003792745

So, with that in mind, we could send the same system to the Ukraine, and nobody would be offended or bothered. Russia used them to open the Campaign and they were dropping anti-personnel as well.

There is a "tingling sensation" on the web that they may try to slip it into the most recent $2+ Billion-dollar aid package.

All I'm saying there are loopholes and we're exploiting them on the "non-proliferation" side. I would not be surprised if we send them there by Spring or early Summer. Don't kind yourselves if we're doing for Taiwan (And pissing China for it.) Ukraine isn't a reach either.

Whether you like "Uncle Joe" or not and I don't care either way, he's done more than the last two Presidents combined to get weapons to the Ukraine and align NATO plus the same can be said about Taiwan going even further back. For China systems like VOLCANO, F-16V and ABRAMS were "Redlines" WELL we've made them,
"GREENLINES"

You have to remember he had 40 years in the Senate through the Cold War and beyond. In Putin he sees Stalin and the Soviet Union, with Xi Ping it's Mao and Communist China. and he's "spitting in their eyes" right now.

Just food for thought in a neutral biased way. ;)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

While we are on the subject of mines I invite comments in regards to this POSSIBLE swap file addition to the games ( similar to the swastika flag swap file in SPww2



https://i.imgur.com/o84FeQR.png

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Is so you better see where your mines are placed so your guys don't get killed by them? If so, looks great as those signs were posted in battlefields going back to WWI.

If otherwise a planning tool while working on a scenario or other, then I did that kind of thing I would use it so I would put a building or some such on top of the mine.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[zovs66]

Dang! Those look freaking good!

[DRG]

They would be a minor "game changer" in that they are impossible to overlook by either side, unlike the old mine icons that could be missed on a cluttered map.

OTOH.... nothing at all is changed in the code so an undetected minefield remains Icon free until it is detected

I did try a red/black version and white/blue/black/red versions as well which are less eye-catching than the yellow


https://i.imgur.com/GuSSGAm.png

White skull on red OTOH works like the yellow on black in a K.I.S.S way

https://i.imgur.com/6I529Qj.png

And there are alternates to that.... the word MINES added in white
https://i.imgur.com/eathW0T.png

and alternates to the alternates .. the word MINES added in Yellow
https://i.imgur.com/03oyKUd.png

And alternatives to that .. the word MINES added in white with a yellow skull
https://i.imgur.com/LMzLpjc.png

[blazejos]

Looks great but looks like there is no any international standard sign for mines
for inspiration

Ukraine since 2014
https://www.unicef.org/sites/default/files/styles/two_column/public/photo%20_10%20%281%29.JPG?itok=Tx9oMjqC

German WW2 times
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/n04AAOSwxjZgNSK4/s-l500.jpg

British army sign
https://live.staticflickr.com/508/20489694611_4fdd0f76e6_b.jpg

[MarkSheppard]

From Twitter/Telegram -- how a typical "Wagner" assault is executed for Scenario designers:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1621095382771175426.html

1/ The Wagner Group's 'human wave' attacks, which have left the area around Bakhmut and Soledar strewn with the bodies of dead Wagner fighters, have been described in detail by a Russian source. It explains the brutal calculations behind Wagner's seemingly suicidal tactics. ⬇

2/ The 'Russian Criminal' website, which is linked to the VChK-OGPU Telegram channel, reports what a source – likely within Wagner – has told it about the mercenary group's approach to using recruited convicts to attack Soledar, sustaining huge casualties along the way.

3/ "The most experienced and well-prepared group of stormtroopers comes first, with excellent equipment. It's comprised of eight men, each with a 'Bumblebee' [possibly meaning an RPO-A Shmel thermobaric rocket launcher, effective against fortified positions].

4/ "Whatever happens, the group must reach the firing line. "Whatever happens" is not a turn of phrase, but a task, the failure to complete which will end in execution [by Wagner], regardless of any [mitigating] factors.

5/ "Once fire contact has been made [with the enemy], the group digs into positions. Digging in is taught as meticulously as combat operations, so by military standards, digging in is almost instantaneous and very effective.

6/ "The area the group has reached is marked (a rag on a tree or something similar). Even if the group is demolished to zero, the next one already realises where the previous one has reached. The main task is to make contact, dig in and transfer positional data to the artillery.

7/ "Artillery can fire from an hour to several hours. And here is the first cause of conflict with the [Russian] army: if there are not enough shells, instead of a successful attack you get hopeless meat from the stormtroopers.

8/ "The first group is followed by the second, also eight men, but with much lighter equipment. Their task is to jump into the positions as soon as the artillery shells finish their work.

9/ "Sometimes there is an order not to wait for the shelling to end – the 'Musicians' are so disciplined that they will go anyway, because they stand a fighting chance of surviving.

10/ "Nowadays there are not enough shells and because of that the first groups hardly survive – the main blow is coming at them and even training does not solve all the problems there.

11/ "Even before, losses in the first group were inevitable, but now the survivability of groups as a whole has fallen to critical values. And to replace them with just anyone increases costs even more, and the influx of people has now collapsed.

12/ "Groups of 8 people go in waves - usually 4 waves are prepared for the attack. But there have been cases in Soledar where it took 14 waves to take one area. Of course there were survivors, but the casualties were a hundred or more. That's for one section.

13/ "Groups have drone operators to lead the whole group into position to clear the area. At the same time, the lightly wounded do not slouch and do not lie down – for that, they could shoot you in the legs and leave behind.

14/ "This tactic is the only possible way to achieve results and advance in such conditions. The line of defense in Soledar has been cleverly constructed for years, the army command has neither the possibility nor the desire to advance there.

15/ "That's basically why the task was handed to Wagner.

From the outside, it may look unreasonable to take such a high casualty rate deliberately, but try to look at it in a different way: even 4 waves of 8 men – that is 32 men killed at the worst.

16/ "Throw in even a regiment – they will lose much more and even they will fail to cope with the task. In percentage terms they will lose less, but in absolute numbers, more. Therefore losses of over 50% for an attack are not bad, if there is a result.

17/ "There is much less manpower for assault groups now, shells are also in short supply. And if the artillery is suppressed, then no one will call the stormtroopers back anyway, they just mop up without cover.

18/ "If there are more groups in reserve, you can send in 5, and 6, and 7 waves, just to finish the result. This is not an army, here it is better to have more initiative than to underdo it.

19/ "The 'Musicians' have their own training – with a crazy intensity, if you are without experience – but they teach a very narrow range of tasks.

20/ "And the newcomers from the penal colonies are very well disciplined: first they are shown video executions, then very soon they encounter their first real examples, and then they get used to such discipline completely.

21/ "Another plus from this [in contrast to the Russian army] is that it is not the practice in Wagner to reassign those [qualified as] artillery gunners to the stormtroopers, unless as punishment. Good gunners are also worth their weight in gold.

22/ "The army will not be able to replace Wagner in hot areas, this is not even considered. In modern warfare, the number of soldiers is not an indicator at all. But, again, the question remains open – what to do about the shortage of shells (120 and 80 mm)?

23/ "There is a concept of "efficiency relative to the situation", and so this efficiency can be high, but if the situation is deadlocked, then the main issue is still not resolved.

24/ "Exchanging people for territory is beneficial when the territory is small and people in reserve are plentiful. If, on the other hand, you have to chop for every metre and people have become scarce, problems begin to arise.

25/ "As a result, losses are growing and progress slows down. The recruitment of convicts at first gave a full-flowing river of people, now they are gone. At the beginning of the war there was talk of Syrian mercenaries, some even came. But they are not fit for this war.

26/ "Among the 'Musicians' they say aloud that "we're about to put the squeeze on and take everything here." But among themselves, everyone expects that we will be removed from the assault on a number of directions.

27/ "And even if a large mobilisation begins right tomorrow, it will not be possible to immediately recruit refuseniks in the required numbers, but they still need to be run in, brought to the desired condition, …

28/ "because otherwise it will not even be possible to spend them effectively. It takes time, it takes a lot of shells. And we have neither one nor the other."

Source:
https://rucriminal.info/ru/material/idushhie-na-smert

[DRG]

Looks great but looks like there is no any international standard sign for mines

That's what I found as well and a dozen or so variations from an African Nation that names escapes me ATM

Leaning towards these but I have weeks to make up my mind

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16824&stc=1&d=1675383170

Or Perhaps Roman Numerals

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16825&stc=1&d=1675383731

[MarkSheppard]

So from this, you could simulate a Wagner attack by:

1.) Having each "wave" of Wagner (2 units, each of 4 men to enable some maneuvering) appear on a timed reinforcement schedule, to prevent the RU player from "gamey" use of all the squads at once in mass.

2.) The units are appropriately low cost -- instead of a total cost of 34 for a typical 8 man Russian Rifle Section (Unit 831); you'd use the scenario editor to reduce total unit cost to something like 5.

[lukerduker123]

Apologies for causing a brief argument in chat! My sleep-deprived brain clearly forgot that the Ottawa convention deals with personnel mines, not anti-armor mines. Also, in reference to the claimed Wagner wave assaults, didn't folks spend literal decades trying to dispel the myth of the 'Great Russian Horde' that defeated Germany in WWII? At least back then they had a proper population advantage..

[DRG]

This is an example of how an idea progresses.

I tried a slightly different version based on the "Ukraine since 2014" sign Blazoes posted

https://i.imgur.com/hh5GiKc.png

Rather than use 1,2,3,4 which only ever represented a general idea of the quantity of mines in a hex, not their actual number this just includes a bar scale at the top to indicate density

The one issue I have with them is how much of the hex the triangular version occupied

So I tried a square version

https://i.imgur.com/Gx2CSoB.png

I still felt it was too large and it was the word MINES that was making it that way so tried and even more minimalist version

https://i.imgur.com/KgUnOUj.png

and that lead to this which is even smaller

https://i.imgur.com/d2J2VuK.png

which lead back to a yellow alternative

https://i.imgur.com/9gNT9cS.png

.........and that lead back to an alternate yellow triangle which brings us back to size

https://i.imgur.com/G4AIOOR.png

Then we get to three versions of full minimalist

https://i.imgur.com/BmCfuiZ.png

But with full minimalist the word MINES can be added back

https://i.imgur.com/pyJYsN8.png

and yet another..... it works for summer and winter which means it will work for desert too

https://i.imgur.com/o31J7wQ.png

AND FINALLY.............
A revised version on the right, of the first one with the first attempt on the left

https://i.imgur.com/t51AeVc.png

it's a bit smaller than the sixth one....a couple of pixels makes a big difference sometimes at this scale

...and in red

https://i.imgur.com/ERrHHi7.png

Feedback welcome

[Steves308]

If it's not too late to vote for the mine icons, I like the first one you posted, the Yellow background with the skull. Those seem to really stand out.
Just my 2 cents.

Steves308

[DRG]

Right now I am leaning towards a "sign" rather than just a skull and bones using the later skull graphic in either yellow or red.....so far.

I'm looking for a balance between standing out and being a distraction but for sure there would be an option for players to use the original SSI ones if they wanted

What I have found though that triangular signs tend more to point downwards than upwards, they also tend more to red

That said there are hundreds of variations

https://kinmen.travel/image/10418/?r=1538719824293



Just to throw fuel on the fire

https://i.imgur.com/UoxoxMP.png

I am liking these...........

[blazejos]

Having each "wave" of Wagner


About human wave tactics. People recruited by Wagner PMC as cannonfodder They are killed not only for retreat but also for begin catch. Like in WW2 if you became a POW you became a traitor.

Here is story of one of them Yevgeny Nuzhin (Murderer in penal colony since 1999)
https://belsat-eu.translate.goog/pl/news/13-11-2022-wagnerowcy-dokonali-egzekucji-najemnika-byl-wiezniem-ktory-poddal-sie-ukrainie?_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp

https://belsat-eu.translate.goog/pl/news/13-11-2022-obroncy-praw-czlowieka-zadaja-od-ukrainy-wyjasnien-jak-wiezien-zabity-przez-grupe-wagnera-opuscil-kraj?_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Here shortly after became POW he talks with someone from press
https://www-polsatnews-pl.translate.goog/wiadomosc/2022-11-13/wojna-w-ukrainie-rosjanie-zabili-najemnika-z-grupy-wagnera-ktory-oddal-sie-do-niewoli/?_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Ukrainian side said that he was strong admirer of USSR and allow his exchange for 20 their soldiers :confused:
https://belsat-eu.translate.goog/pl/news/17-11-2022-doradca-zelenskiego-twierdzi-ze-stracony-w-rosji-najemnik-dobrowolnie-zgodzil-sie-na-powrot-do-kraju-z-ukrainskiej-niewoli?_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp

But his execution is not end of the story CEO of Wagner Group about him
Yevgeny Prigozhin publicly approved of the execution and called the executioners "honest people". He commented on the death of the former prisoner with the words "dog - dog death".

And on the end TOOL used by PMC Wagner "employes" to kill him still with his blood was send to European Parliament like in classical mafia movies :( this is a sad story of one of this criminals from human waves units.
https://www-polsatnews-pl.translate.goog/wiadomosc/2022-11-24/zakrwawiony-mlot-kowalski-dla-parlamentu-europejskiego-wyslyla-go-kucharz-putina/?_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Here another person Viktor Sevalniev (also from penal colony he became a commander of separatist unit because he fought before in Chechenia 1999) He was killed not because his own actions but because some of his soldiers deserted.

this is what he says to his wife in last words through phone:
“The Ministry of Defense shoots people. They know we are the 200th [dead - ed.] and they have us in f*ck. I would like to go back to where I was [to the penal colony – editorial note], but they won't let me. […] Don't send people here, that's enough. They want to kill everyone, Gulagu.net initiative quotes his conversation with his wife.

https://belsat-eu.translate.goog/pl/news/05-12-2022-ministerstwo-obrony-rozstrzeliwuje-ludzi-dowodca-separatystow-stracony-za-dezercje-swoich-zolnierzy?_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Now even if we know that they are often criminals hope that some of them are not totally anonymous human wave. Also recruits which aren't any criminals are used and disciplined in similar way. Here for example Andriej Miedwiediew who escaped not so long time ago to Norway.

https://defence24-pl.translate.goog/wojna-na-ukrainie-raport-specjalny-defence24/zastrzelili-ich-na-oczach-wszystkich-byly-najemnik-ujawnia-dzialania-grupy-wagnera?_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lMOvPi2BEw

[scorpio_rocks]

Loving the mine graphics (yellow triangles my favourite), however just a thought: how would they interact with objective flags?

Does the mine sign need to be larger to show under a objective marker/flag? or raised/lowered in the hex?

[DRG]

Loving the mine graphics (yellow triangles my favourite), however just a thought: how would they interact with objective flags?

Does the mine sign need to be larger to show under an objective marker/flag? or raised/lowered in the hex?

It would be the same as the normal mine symbols under a V hex are now

With the first test example I built, the top of triangle shows above the V-hex and the number of mines below it. I have not tested the latest ones but you raise a good point and I will ensure the V hexes do not hide them though through preferences while playing you can turn the V hexes on and off to check things like that

I just built a simulation and the last inverted triangle example I built would show a bit of yellow above and below a V-hex flag alerting a player to the mines there and that is actually a bit better than it has been up until now as a single mine would not show under a V-Hex flag and only be really obvious with three-four



EDIT ----And there is always.......
\ - Enable or disable the display of victory hexes.**

that has no effect on mines but it allows you to check under a V-hex

[blazejos]

]What I have found though that triangular signs tend more to point downwards than upwards, they also tend more to red

I like this red downward triangle looks more like this sign used on last war but that is always an issue of individual taste and good visibility on map especially in far away zoom mode.
https://i.imgur.com/UoxoxMP.png

Some proposition this mines option may have a button in game interface typically we will have standard mines icons like now but when you click that button you can change minefield representation to other icon and you can in that way cycle through many minefields icons and chose that what is best for your taste. In that way will be possible to use all the icons which Don present to us. Problem with solution is that will need some addition to game code ;) that button which need cycle through new SHP file icons. Plus of that solution is that in SPWW2 if that code also will be added we can have "Achtung Minen" sign. Probably one shp may be dedicated just for signs from various parts of the world. Just proposition to consideration :)

[DRG]

While I can see how the ability to cycle through various mine/sign graphics that allow players to try different representations would be a 'nice" addition it overcomplicates what was intended to be a simple swap file exercise like the Alternate German flags in SPww2

Also, while Red is indeed the predominant colour used on these signs in real life the issue for Red, that the question about how they would work with V hexes pointed out, Red is used a lot more for flags than yellow is.

OTOH a red sign on the game map is a bit more subdued and less eye-catching than Yellow

I have not made up my mind one way or the other

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Just curious, would these be a player option to use or not?

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

Just curious, would these be a player option to use or not?

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Pat, as I said in the previous post.......

intended to be a simple swap file exercise like the Alternate German flags in SPww2

There would be a folder in the Graphics folder with the old and the new and simple instruction on how to copy them

[DRG]

This is an example of how the inverted red triangle version would look In the game

https://i.imgur.com/YcpIM4T.png

The tiny left side shows what it would look like fully zoomed out which is more clear than the existing set

The middle example is the standard 1:1 level that the game starts up with

The right side is zoomed all the way in

I used Uganda as it had a colourful flag. Note the "tail" of the mine sign can clearly be seen under a V hex flag indicating there are mines there


A further refinement of placement in hex. This lowers the inverted triangle so that the skull symbol is in the middle of the hex but the "tail" of the triangle now hangs fully down below a V hex flag and the four different levels of mines laid can be clearly seen

https://i.imgur.com/iA5IVWC.png

NO decision has been made as to which or even if for sure they will be added

[DRG]

And becasue I know I'm going to asked.......

https://i.imgur.com/frmX7jq.png

[DRG]

If anyone wants to have a look at this here's the file for the last red inverted triangle and the instructions

INSTRUCTIONS

Go to the winSPMBT GRAPHICS folder and find Icon0014.SHP... make a copy so you can change it back if you so desire.

After making that copy, extract the ZIP that is attached below to the same folder. It will ask if you want to overwrite the existing file. Click yes BECASUE YOU HAVE ALREADY MADE A COPY BACKUP.....YES?

......so don't extract this until you have made that copy

[blazejos]

Mirror Mirror on the wall!! which minefield is fairest of them all?
some allusion to German speaking country's yellow WW2 minefield sign :)

https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/t8lcnh/polish_poster_by_wojciech_korku%C4%87_protesting/

Interview with Author ;)
https://www-polskieradio-pl.translate.goog/399/7977/Artykul/2920618,Rosyjskie-media-wsciekle-przez-plakat-Achtung-Russia-Korkuc-chcialbym-by-przestal-byc-aktualny?_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp

[Suhiir]

The NATO (and incidentally Chinese) poison gas, biological, and fallout symbols are usually black on yellow.

Mines are typically black on blue (friendly) or black on red (enemy).

No blue or red for gas/bio/nuke cause they're not friendly to anyone!

[DRG]

see post 202

[DRG]

T

Mines are typically black on blue (friendly) or black on red (enemy).


GOOGLE "minefield warning signs"

You WILL see a lot of white on red.
You WILL see some that are black on yellow with the word MINES
You WILL see some that are predominantly white with a red border and a black skull

What you won't find is black on blue or black on red

So if you find some examples of these rare signs please do share

[zovs66]

And becasue I know I'm going to asked.......

https://i.imgur.com/frmX7jq.png

These look simply fantastic! Graphically and artistically supreme!

[DRG]

I have a smaller version I am going to see how it looks when actually placed on the map..... this is just a simulation with the smaller version on the right

Does the same job and is just as recognizable but its about 14% smaller

https://i.imgur.com/YBb6cDv.png

It may not seem like much but it would on a crowded map

[Suhiir]

GOOGLE "minefield warning signs"

You WILL see a lot of white on red.
You WILL see some that are black on yellow with the word MINES
You WILL see some that are predominantly white with a red border and a black skull

What you won't find is black on blue or black on red

So if you find some examples of these rare signs please do share

ADP 1-02 Terms and Military Symbols

COLOR (FILL)
The default colors used to designate standard identity are blue for friendly or assumed friend, red for hostile or suspect, green for neutral, and yellow for unknown or pending.

[DRG]

None of those are commonly used to denote the locations of mines on the ground

"green for neutral" NEUTRAL MINES ? That has more to do with maps

When I said "examples," I thought it was clear that meant an actual photo of a sign in use on the ground, in a conflict area

That said, WYSIWYG and if WYS isn't to your liking the original mines will still be in the game files

[Karagin]

Normally minefields aren't marked until after the attacking side finds them, and the defenders would have their minefields marked on their maps by grid coordinates and standard NATO/WP markings, depending on doctrine.

The signs you posted look like what comes after they are found and thus put so everyone knows to stay away. But as you said, we don't have to use them if we don't like them. Really don't see the need to change the icons at all.

[DRG]

I will be leaving the mine files that are there now as the default and I will be placing a new folder into the Graphics folder and instructions for anyone who would rather use the signs and there will be a backup default set will be there as well which is how the alternate German Flags in SPww2 are set up

[Suhiir]

The signs you posted look like what comes after they are found and thus put so everyone knows to stay away. But as you said, we don't have to use them if we don't like them. Really don't see the need to change the icons at all.
And such signs are often improvised because almost no one carries a truckload or two of signs they might, or might not, have a use for around.

[DRG]

Something of interest to map makers regarding Ukraine

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BB1h06Ns.img?w=768&h=431&m=6

note the wide band of trees alongside roads