Updates in light of Ukraine war

[FOARP]

Some things presently in the game fairly obviously need updating in light of the war in Ukraine:

- Ukrainian OOB, add Javelins, NLAWs, Panzerfausts, Stingers, Starstreak.

- Active protection systems (e.g., Shtora) DO NOT WORK, or at least there are no reports of any of them stopping even a single Stugna-P, Javelin, or other anti-tank weapon. Why this is is hard to say - could be poor Russian maintenance but Ukrainian tanks also seem to be suffering the same thing.

- ERA is also a lot less effective in reality than it is in this game, at least not against tandem warheads or top-attack weapons.

- In reality T-72s, T80s, and T90s appear much more vulnerable than they do in this game. Of course there is selection bias in the videos that you can find online, but there is little evidence that the armour of these tanks is very effective against even close-range auto-cannon fire (cf a Ukrainian BTR-4 taking out a Russian T72B3M from the side with its 30mm cannon in Mariupol).

[Aeraaa]

Oh geez, not again...

[Mobhack]

Definitely someone who hasn't bothered in the slightest to actually read the board posts since the invasion of UKR started...

[DRG]

YES.... we have been paying attention to current events:doh: and there has been ongoing adjustments made starting the day after the Russians crossed the border.

What source claimed the 30mm kill ?? I want to know just what "taking out" means in that event..... did the tank burn and explode or did the crew bug out?

There is a LOT of BS flowing from both sides ......don't add to it

DO YOU MEAN THIS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt06PvmqD7Q

If yes it claims " damage " but that tells us nothing about the actual "Damage"


And here's a PRIME example of the BS flowing like water

https://www.businessinsider.com/video-ukraine-amphibious-vehicle-destroys-russian-armor-in-mariupol-2022-3


The video appears to show a Ukrainian armored personal carrier damaging a Russian tank and destroying another.

The "other" was not a "tank" ( MISINFORMATION] but it does go on to say

...shows a Ukrainian BTR-4 damaging a Russian T-72B3M tank and destroying a BRM-1K armored vehicle


which is a LONG way from taking out a B3M from the side and as sure as the sun rises that 30mm autocannon on the BTR-4 can chew up a BRM-1K

[vyrago]

Definitely someone who hasn't bothered in the slightest to actually read the board posts since the invasion of UKR started...

his account looks relatively new, its not like you're getting a ton if visitors here anyways. Maybe give him a break?

I'm seeing a real noticeable gatekeeping/toxicity here from the old guard towards people asking about updates, add-ons, features etc.

[vyrago]

Some things presently in the game fairly obviously need updating in light of the war in Ukraine:

- Ukrainian OOB, add Javelins, NLAWs, Panzerfausts, Stingers, Starstreak.

- Active protection systems (e.g., Shtora) DO NOT WORK, or at least there are no reports of any of them stopping even a single Stugna-P, Javelin, or other anti-tank weapon. Why this is is hard to say - could be poor Russian maintenance but Ukrainian tanks also seem to be suffering the same thing.

- ERA is also a lot less effective in reality than it is in this game, at least not against tandem warheads or top-attack weapons.

- In reality T-72s, T80s, and T90s appear much more vulnerable than they do in this game. Of course there is selection bias in the videos that you can find online, but there is little evidence that the armour of these tanks is very effective against even close-range auto-cannon fire (cf a Ukrainian BTR-4 taking out a Russian T72B3M from the side with its 30mm cannon in Mariupol).


I agree with you! to each of your points.

- I have not seen one totally verifiable video or photo evidence of active protection working. You would think that after nearly a month, there would have been something. In short: active protection might need a nerf.

- ERA a tricky. I have seen two videos of frontal hits on T-80s with an unknown HEAT warhead (RPG, Pz 3?) where the ERA did appear to work.

- You're right here. The footage of the BTR-4 penetrating the T-72B3M has even been verified by another 'game': war thunder. Side protection on T-72s in some places is no more than 60mm. Autocannons might need a slight boost.


Futher: i've argued that modern AGTMs like Javelin need a boost. Ive done tests with Javelins vs T-80s and always seem to average about a 25% kill rate, with over 50% being intercepted by CIWS/VIRSS. This has clearly not been observed in Ukraine. Data from defense analysts suggest javelin effectiveness is about 93% overall. That includes all targets however: MBTs, APCs, IFVs etc...

[DRG]

We have made adjustments to the way the game calculates the effects of active defensive systems and in the next update they will be somewhat less effective but no matter what we do someone will have differing opinions. It's been like that since the start. It's why WaW even existed. There is no way to make everyone "happy" and it will take months at best for the truth and BS to be sorted out when it comes to who did what and what effect that has and if in the end it means an adjustment to the code we will make adjustments to the code but right now the "truth" is whatever someone on either side want it to appear and real data is not going to be available for a while yet but if we think something needs tweaking we will or have tweaked it.

In regards to the first post, it was obvious either what had been said and written on these forums since the start of this had not been read or it was thought we are living on the moon

some things presently in the game fairly obviously need updating in light of the war in Ukraine:

Well DUH.

The actual capabilities of the systems we try to simulate in the game can NEVER BE KNOWN until they are tested in combat and then we make adjustments to try and bring reality and the game closer together but to think we are unaware that certain things "fairly obviously need updating" is just a BIT insulting like we are somehow unaware of events. Hence the response given

Autocannons might need a slight boost.


NO...... but the steel side armour on those tanks may need lowering which I have already said we are looking into on another thread

We were already working harder on this than either of us wanted to and Andys doing it with a broken shoulder then this all started requiring us to be even more busy making adjustments almost all of them based on guesstimates because nothing is really known for sure

[Karagin]

So let's hold off on updating things, say until this time next year, when we all have time to digest the information and figure out the actual facts...if that is not good for some then so what, I would rather have you guys in good humor and health and not burnt out. You and Andy have done amazing work.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Add JAVALIN's to the Ukrainian OOB? I do believe Don and I had already done that about two years ago at least. You NEED to check the OOB first or at a minimum, I think..., I'm not sure if..., I believe they might (or not) ....

I believe this is getting out of hand. I believe, if these distractions keep up, we won't see an update until June.

I know that there was a plan on what were the top items they wanted to get done for the next release. Normally all "outside" inputs would've been ended by FEB./or beginning of March.

What we think we know is JAVALIN & NLAW performing a little better than expected. T-72 GENERALLY speaking up to maybe the T-72B3 (Considered a 3rd Gen MBT. aren't so good, however it is no secret with Russia it's always been about numerical superiority it is estimated they operate around over 2000 - 3000 of them.

There's ALOT of technical issues that need looking into.

Karagan is right and I'll go a little further in saying we NEED TO GO TO "ALL STOP" concerning any further changes concerning this war period for the next release.

We experienced the cost of all this "over exuberance" about ~4+ years ago. The cost?

I do believe it was a lay off that lasted over a year with a 1.5-year gap between releases. I believe that was a summer release.

This is not "Burger King" where you can have it your way!

More like Andy and Dons Diner where they offer a good meal and a fair price with a daily "Very Generous Potluck" meal. Can you guess were we fit in metaphorically speaking!?!

This war is not ending anytime soon, kind've more like the Battle of Britain with the resolve of The Blitz.

Time to take the "Very Generous Potluck" meal off the menu.

I'm ready for the just a good meal served when ready without the extra frills. That analogy has now made me hungry!

So, I'm off to bed instead.

Andy get well, I think a shot or two of some of FINE Scottish Whiskey or my preference INNIS & GUNN from the Whiskey or Rum barrel will do you well. Or maybe just a "spot of tea" of which you add any of the afore mentioned items, maybe not so much the Innis & Gunn. ;)

Don, have a couple cold ones, shoot some targets and have a nice walk.

On second thought, shoot first and the rest as you see fit. :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/18/us/ukraine-antitank-missiles-russia.html?

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/16/us/politics/us-ukraine-weapons-drones.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article

[zovs66]

Mostly just informative, but I thought interesting.

https://youtu.be/VyHVWqO7NnI

[zovs66]

Same content provider but for the AT4.

https://youtu.be/Y6LHFdDdhcM

[zovs66]

And just for a bit of humor

https://youtu.be/toGMjVVhkiM

[SaS TrooP]

I would not be that over reacting :P
As I play SPMBT, CIWS and VIRSS systems seem to be quite ineffective for top attack ATGMs like Javelin - like already in the game.

I would generally not say that Russian CIWS is not working completely - rather than NATO supplied weapons strike the top of the vehicle so often that its covering angles are way insufficient.

About that ERA protection... oh boi, problem appears to be that many Russian vehicles are empty. There are pictures of literally egg-fillers put into those bricks but could be propaganda - either way though, brick is empty. This kinda shows the scale of corruption or low readiness of many units, not neccessarily that certain gear does not work.

What I would recommend however is to probably "bring back" the deadliness of MANPADS systems. It was modified couple of updates ago and now it is super hard task to shoot down aircraft/chopper with these missiles, even after a couple of hits. This does not apply only to Strieła like systems that always suffered from poor warhead load, but MANPADS in general. Recently replayed one of Lundstrom's scenarios with Swedish Army and engaged Hinds with RBS-70s. Not a single one was downed with a single missile, while several were hit 5+ times to even assure any dammage (!)
I believe Ukraine War pretty decently proves that underpowering those weapons could be wrong...

[DRG]

What we ( I ) had assumed was modernized T-72's had ERA on the hull sides but it increasingly seems that they do not and the frustrating part is much of the type of info we need is rarely easily available

There is NO era on that rear hull
https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16663&stc=1&d=1648044341

There is a bulk area here that *MIGHT" conceal ERA blocks

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16666&stc=1&d=1648044532

but putting reactive armour behind rubber matting like that would direct some of the force back to the vehicle if the block was hit
https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16669&stc=1&d=1648044790

I don't think there is ANY ERA on the hull sides

It may have been tried early on

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16672&stc=1&d=1648045074

But does not seem to be the case now along with any increase in steel hull side armour over time

Still digging for more info

[DRG]

FINALLY some clear, usable information

https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot.com/2017/12/t-72-part-2.html

The hull side, hull roof, hull belly and rear armour of all T-72 models are identical, regardless of the variant. As stated earlier, the armour of the side of the hull is 80mm thick. The armour on the sides of the engine compartment is 70mm thick. The side armour of the hull is more than enough to withstand 20mm armour-piercing ammunition fired from various aircraft as well as 20mm and 25mm APDS rounds from autocannons.

NOTE the incident in the video involved 30mm autocannon

The side armour is thickest at the top half and thins down to just 20mm at the lower quarter of the side hull profile. The upper and lower sides are not the same plate. The upper side armour is a single rolled steel plate whereas the lower side armour is actually a part of the belly armour plate. The belly plate is a large stamped piece of steel, bent into a tub shape and welded to the upper side armour. It joins with the upper side plate at an angle of 32 degrees from the vertical axis. The lower side hull armour has a height of 250mm or 270mm if the thickness of the plate itself is included. The upper side hull occupies around three quarters of the area of the side hull profile and the weaker lower side hull occupies one quarter. This thin strip of the side armour is usually not visible as it is completely concealed behind the roadwheels which add a modicum of spaced armour. The roadwheels cover a height of around 350mm of the lower part of the hull, and thus cover the entirety of the lower hull sides and also cover a part of the upper hull sides as well. The short height of the lower side hull armour makes it statistically unlikely to be hit and the additional protection provided by the roadwheels offsets the reduced thickness of the armour, so overall, it is not a flaw in the protection scheme of the tank.

It is without a doubt that the sides of the tank were only sufficient for a very limited period of the service life of the T-72. Being only 80mm thick, the side armour plate could offer only a fraction of the protective value of the front armour, and this was not a trifling issue. The number of hits sustained by a tank's sides were statistically significant, as shown by the analyses conducted by Dr. Manfred Held in "Warhead Hit Distribution on Main Battle Tanks in The Gulf".


There WILL be changes made. SO HAPPY there are 181 of them in the OOB's and that only counts the ones with T-72 in their names

GRUMBLE

[Aeraaa]

I believe the biggest problem of the game is its binary logic: If Pen>Armor= always pen, otherwise never pen. Real life AFVs have all sorts of weakpoints that can offer chances of penetration to guns that on paper should not penetrate. It would be better if pen and armor values are translated to a chance to penetrate, where even weaker guns have a chance to cause damage/knock out an AFV.

Of course, this is a change that is probably quite significant and will likely not be implemented any time soon (if ever). But it will make things more unpredictable and will reduce the chance of 21st century armor behaving like KV-1 in Barbarossa.

[DRG]

AH HA!!!

https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot.com/2017/12/t-72-part-2.html

The video below shows a T-72B in Grozny retreating with some of its external sponson fuel cells alight. As you can see, the tank is not disabled by the fire and is perfectly capable of moving under its own power to a safe location where the crew can put out the fire with the fire extinguishers carried inside the tank.


Thats why that one was burning in that video in Ukraine the external fuel cells were ruptured

[DRG]

I believe the biggest problem of the game is its binary logic: If Pen>Armor= always pen, otherwise never pen. Real life AFVs have all sorts of weakpoints that can offer chances of penetration to guns that on paper should not penetrate. It would be better if pen and armor values are translated to a chance to penetrate, where even weaker guns have a chance to cause damage/knock out an AFV.

Of course, this is a change that is probably quite significant and will likely not be implemented any time soon (if ever). But it will make things more unpredictable and will reduce the chance of 21st century armor behaving like KV-1 in Barbarossa.


That is why there are a HOST of randoms built into the penetration code so it IS NOT black/white pen/no pen in the game even remotely

IT IS NOT Pen>Armor= always pen and never has been

[Aeraaa]

AH HA!!!

https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot.com/2017/12/t-72-part-2.html

The video below shows a T-72B in Grozny retreating with some of its external sponson fuel cells alight. As you can see, the tank is not disabled by the fire and is perfectly capable of moving under its own power to a safe location where the crew can put out the fire with the fire extinguishers carried inside the tank.


Thats why that one was burning in that video in Ukraine the external fuel cells were ruptured

And that is why BDA should not be performed by YT/twitter professionals...:D

[DRG]

I have confirmed from the same source that ......

The fighting compartment and engine compartment of the tank is protected by heavy side skirts incorporating "Relikt" ERA elements. The skirts were originally developed and implemented on the T-90MS

and they look like this

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-swYwfRacvx0/W6AbVk8tjKI/AAAAAAAAMQk/u9LezqEjhEkRRjssccUxHIWdntxqY-3fACLcBGAs/s1600/4cv5Y.jpg


and that matches what is shown in that video

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16661&stc=1&d=1647952203


The slat armour is missing but the blocks are identical so the reactive armour values in the stays as is ( the code that makes them work...... or not ........*may* undergo some revision)

[Wdll]

AH HA!!!

https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot.com/2017/12/t-72-part-2.html

The video below shows a T-72B in Grozny retreating with some of its external sponson fuel cells alight. As you can see, the tank is not disabled by the fire and is perfectly capable of moving under its own power to a safe location where the crew can put out the fire with the fire extinguishers carried inside the tank.


Thats why that one was burning in that video in Ukraine the external fuel cells were ruptured

Are you sure? To me it looked like the tank was cooking.
Having said that, we might be talking about a different video.:D

[Aeraaa]

Since a picture is worth 1000 words and a video probably a million:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9pVEP0AzZ4

[DRG]

That's the same one Karigan posted yesterday in the 2022 updates? thread and it is an excellent commentary on why conclusions should not be drawn in haste based on biased information and that's why we generally have not..... yet. There have been a number of additions to the Ukraine OOB and we have adjusted the EXP and MOR value lists and we are going to take another look at Manpad vs Air/ Helos to see if *maybe* we went too far the last time we made adjustments to the code for that. Beyond that.... wait and see

[DRG]

One of the key points is made between 3:02 - 3:37


If you send unsupported tanks into areas infested with enemy infantry what is happening is what you should expect to happen

[Aeraaa]

Yeah, you're right, Karagin posted it yesterday. :doh:

My bad, apologies for that. Although I want to say it's the video that best sums up all my thought so far in this conflict (and conflict in the digital era in general) and that's why I was so eager to post it.

[DRG]

In this case that video posted in multiple places is a good thing. Everyone should watch that and consider carefully want he says before suggesting " changes"

"You don't know what you don't know."

The "problem" is right now we have multiple threads on this forum dealing with issues related to the current conflict and how they impact RL (and the game ) and it is difficult to remember where they all are

Another Key point is made 12:10 - 12:30....... active protection systems are not universally fitted... This is important to "the game" because in 2022 ALL Russian "MBT" tanks have active or passive systems in the game because the information we had was that they did but there ARE "CS" versions that don't and anyone setting up a battle or a scenario need to consider using those versions as well


I think I have a new end of game shutdown message

"Defending is all well and good, but victory comes from the offence otherwise all you are doing is giving the other side time to fix what they are doing wrong"

Nicholas Moran (The Chieftain)

[Wdll]

Slightly relevant.
I am in a generated campaign (Greece vs Russia 2022) and the first 2 (or 3?) battles it was a cakewalk. I mean even though the AI had a bonus in points to purchase stuff, it was really easy for me. Which is a RARE thing against powerful armies such as Russia.
In the current (3rd or 4th) battle while it was again easy to capture all the flags and clear our most of the map, I found some enemy troops "hiding" in the southern part where there was nothing really important. Cocky as I was I sent my vehicles (Leo2, BMP1, M113) to quickly mop up any enemy forces. In about 5 turns I think I lost more tanks and helos than I lost in all the previous battles combined. Didn't use infantry first, didn't prepare with artillery fire, didn't..didn't..didn't. One stupid mistake after another. One cocky mistake after another. I have to say, I almost enjoyed having my *** handed to me like that.

[blazejos]

Also I d'like to rapport a come back of Tachanka in Ukrainian war we discuss this this in some post of SPWWII as a horse cart with HMG something like war chariot which predates technical vehicles used by cavalry during civil war in Russia on early XX century and then widespread in cavalry units in eastern Europe and central Asia. But now we can see here new incarnation of this famous vehicle on some sort of wagon mounted by motorcycle with canonical Maxim 10/30 from museum (storage ?)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOeN99wXsAAXGss?format=jpg&name=small

here famous Tachanka song from Soviet revolutionary times
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGofoatz-20
so after a little more than a 100 years all goes back to roots :D

[DRG]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxLT81wMzEU

...the Taliban were better fighters than the Russians.......


and that could very well be because a lot of Russian troops may not really want to be there and the Ukrainians really want them to not be there as well

[Aeraaa]

Well, I'd argue that the Taliban are probably better fighters than the majority of NATO countries' troops. Nothing extraordinary with that, they basically know war since their very birth by now.

[DRG]

So much depends on Context. The Ukrainians are doing well. They were also invaded. Chances are if you changed the circumstances and it was Ukrainian troops "on manoeuvres" on the Belarus border and they woke up one morning and were ordered to advance into Belarus they might not fight with the same determination as they are now

I would not say the Taliban was better than NATO. They waited until it was only the Afgan army to stop them before they made a serious move to return but yes they have generations of experience

[Wdll]

Well, I'd argue that the Taliban are probably better fighters than the majority of NATO countries' troops. Nothing extraordinary with that, they basically know war since their very birth by now.

How many wars have the Taliban won against NATO countries?

Even when there were only a couple thousand NATO troops in Afghanistan they didn't dare do much against them.
They succeeded in not losing, but having constant support and reinforcements from Pakistan. All they had to do was to bully a local population which had no desire to fight and from the looks of it bribe state officials so that when NATO troops left the country they could just walk in.
I am not saying they were the worst or that they don't deserve credit for surviving at least in part due to skill, but pound for pound I wouldn't say they are as good as the majority of NATO countries' troops. Not even close.

[Wdll]

While the source for me is not exactly trustworthy, interesting video which if accurate is informative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOmYi96cU1M

[Aeraaa]

No, I'm going to stand by my opinion.

Now, to clarify, NATO does have the upper edge against the Taliban. Main reason is of course that Taliban are a light infantry force and any attempt of them to slug it out in the open with NATO troops is going to end with them being utterly annihilated by superior firepower. But, they are skilled in small unit tactics, in concealment, gathering intel from the local population and use of agents, even conducting HVT assasination. There are few NATO countries that have actual combat experience in these fields.

Again, I'm talking about Taliban warrior spirit, which can be found in light infantry. As Taliban do not possess tanks, or heavy artillery, or air, they by default lose in these fields. But they did play their cards superbly, while the same cannot be said about NATO countries that participated in the Afghan war. Also, for all intents and purposes, NATO had an almost constant numerical advantage against the Taliban (counting only the fighters at least).

But anyway, this will derail the thread from Ukraine to Afghanistan.

[Wdll]

No, I'm going to stand by my opinion.

Now, to clarify, NATO does have the upper edge against the Taliban. Main reason is of course that Taliban are a light infantry force and any attempt of them to slug it out in the open with NATO troops is going to end with them being utterly annihilated by superior firepower. But, they are skilled in small unit tactics, in concealment, gathering intel from the local population and use of agents, even conducting HVT assasination. There are few NATO countries that have actual combat experience in these fields.

Again, I'm talking about Taliban warrior spirit, which can be found in light infantry. As Taliban do not possess tanks, or heavy artillery, or air, they by default lose in these fields. But they did play their cards superbly, while the same cannot be said about NATO countries that participated in the Afghan war. Also, for all intents and purposes, NATO had an almost constant numerical advantage against the Taliban (counting only the fighters at least).

But anyway, this will derail the thread from Ukraine to Afghanistan.

The same could be said about the Cosa Nostra. High morale, warrior spirit, assassinations, using local population to move/hide, etc. All the Taliban did was use terrorism to scare off local population to support them, use criminal activities to gain not only money but also troops and then basically do hit and run "war" whenever they thought they had a good chance. I'm sorry, but I don't see that at any level as something better than most NATO countries troops. At any level. But yes of course believe anything you want.

[DRG]

https://tass.com/defense/1061790

Trophy active protection system 'toothless’ against Russian anti-tank weapons, says source

Well...... they do seem to be the current experts on things that don't work...:D

[DRG]

Could be true.......or not. Lots of BS flowing

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/44855/russias-only-prototype-t-80um2-tank-was-destroyed-in-ukraine

I highly doubt the last sentence though. I have seen photos or the T-72 with the latest Arena

It could also be the case that despite — or even because of — the ferocity of the fighting on the ground, Russia is keen to test out different capabilities against modern battlefield threats. In such a scenario, it’s conceivable that the T-80UM2 was deployed to Ukraine specifically to assess how its protection features, and perhaps other systems, fared against some of the advanced weaponry, including anti-tank missiles, fielded now by Ukraine. As far as is known, the T-80UM2 was the only tank deployed by Russia in the fighting so far to feature an active protection system.

[Wdll]

Could be true.......or not

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/44855/russias-only-prototype-t-80um2-tank-was-destroyed-in-ukraine


<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/5gw0VWGbgNm8w" width="480" height="233" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/5gw0VWGbgNm8w">via GIPHY</a></p>

[DRG]

Yeah I had to leave before I edited it fully

[DRG]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3o_1mVl7G4

The battle of Irpin: Meeting the Ukrainian resistance • FRANCE 24 English

[MarkSheppard]

Active protection systems (e.g., Shtora) DO NOT WORK, or at least there are no reports of any of them stopping even a single Stugna-P, Javelin, or other anti-tank weapon. Why this is is hard to say - could be poor Russian maintenance but Ukrainian tanks also seem to be suffering the same thing.

APS can't work if APS isn't installed.

To this date, there is one (1) confirmed Russian tank with Hard-APS (aka projectiles hitting incoming munitions) destroyed (the lone T-80UM prototype).

Everything else the Russians have is Passive-APS (Shtora) which relies on IR dazzlers mounted on the front of the turret. You can't dazzle an ATGM launch from the side if your turret isn't pointed at it.

ERA is also a lot less effective in reality than it is in this game, at least not against tandem warheads or top-attack weapons.

We're seeing bias here -- we only see the "sexy" hit tank it blew up videos, not videos of tanks taking hit after hit and not blowing up.

there is little evidence that the armour of these tanks is very effective against even close-range auto-cannon fire (cf a Ukrainian BTR-4 taking out a Russian T72B3M from the side with its 30mm cannon in Mariupol).

You realize that is a "Stuart with 37mm taking out a Tiger with a one in a million shot via jamming turret ring" issue? Like literally; the BTR-4 gunner got lucky at point blank range, which enabled him to aim for the thin read side armor in just about every tank that's existed since logical armoring began?

The game already accommodates that via "critical penetration" chance.

[DRG]

You realize that is a "Stuart with 37mm taking out a Tiger with a one in a million shot via jamming turret ring" issue? Like literally; the BTR-4 gunner got lucky at point blank range, which enabled him to aim for the thin read side armor in just about every tank that's existed since logical armoring began?

The game already accommodates that via "critical penetration" chance.

The problem with all of these videos is we are only being shown what "they" want us to see. That tank did have reactive side plates which I showed earlier and when the BTR fired they reacted and then there was fire but that's the area the sponson fuel tanks are and then the video ended.

That tank was also missing its cage armour at the rear

Point blank fire with a 30mm autocannon, exploding reactive plates, burning fuel then ....

CUT! thats a wrap.

We know N O T H I N G about what happened next.... NOTHING


EVERYONE needs to watch this at least once

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9pVEP0AzZ4

[MarkSheppard]

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16661&stc=1&d=1647952203

From this, you have to be at point blank range with a rapid fire autocannon to be able to kill a T-72/T-90 with it.

(The T-90 is actually a rebadged T-72 with a new turret in later marks).

Essentially, as DRG found out:

the armour of the side of the hull is 80mm thick. The armour on the sides of the engine compartment is 70mm thick.

War Thunder (I know, I know); lists the 30mm 2A42 Autocannon as having at 100m the following penetration:

HE/AP: 63~mm
APDS: 81~mm

The penetration of HE/AP is deep enough that there would be scabbing off the inside of the armor; especially in the rear 70mm thick armor around the engine.

So you can see that in order for a BMP-3/BTR-4 to stand a chance of defeating a T-72/90; the following must occur:

1.) It must be within 100m or less.
2.) The enemy T-72/90 must not have side skirt armor (or be missing pieces of it).
3.) The gunner has to recognize the missing side armor as a weak spot.
4.) The gunner then has to place 20~ rounds into that area.

That's a lot of conditionals that have to occur for a "one in a million" shot.

People need to remember the scope of Steel Panthers -- it's not a "down in the weeds semi accurate penetration simulator" like War Thunder is; but more of an abstraction of armored fighting; i.e. the game already abstractly accounts for weak spots; just load MBT_APCalc and look at Russian Weapon 77 - 30mm 2A42 A/C:

100m Range:
AP: 6 typical penetration, 7 best possible penetration
Sabot 8 typical penetration, 11 best possible penetration

[DRG]

If you see this

https://magic-models.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/T-72B3M_34.jpg

https://magic-models.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/T-72B3M_52.jpg

it has Arena...... if you don't see it, it doesn't

https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/poligon-institut-bronetehniki-chasovoi-vypusk-ot-27062021-1624990269.gif?resize=980:*

[MarkSheppard]

Continuing my own thread of thought:

Look in MOBHack, Russian OBAT:

Unit 031 T-72 -- 9 Side, 6 rear Steel armor for hull (c.1975)
Unit 035 T-72B -- 13 Side, 8 rear Steel Armor for hull (c.1985)

You can see how the game is trying to abstractly simulate the differences between a 1975 T-72 with no side armor schurzen and the later 1985 model T-72 with side armor schurzen + ERA.

Because remember, Schurzen still helps; even in the year 2000+ against APDS rounds, because a solid Schurzen plate is typically 1cm thick, and can induce yaw onto an incoming projectile; causing it to fail after passing through.

I think a lot of misunderstanding is occurring due to games like War Thunder -- it's done a lot to help the AFV community, but it's also hurt in some ways.

This is because War Thunder can hyper model individual armor plate thicknesses across an entire 3D model, whereas games like Steel Panthers have to take an entire aspect (frontal, side, rear) and abstract it down to a single number that then represents that entire aspect; while in War Thunder, you can aim for weak spots (i.e. no ERA or schurzen protection) and see that represented in real time.

[MarkSheppard]

Another aspect people are missing is that this mass ATGM/MANPAD spam is...abnormal.

Thousands of MANPADs and ATGMs have flooded into Ukraine; while the Ukrainians have asked (per CNN) for 500~ Javelin and 500~ Stingers...PER DAY.

To put that all into context, in 2014 Finland spent EUR 90 million (about $123 million) for the FIM-92 RMP Block I Stinger to replace their existing pile of Soviet era MANPADs.

The original contract "Wish List" was $330 million for 600 RMP Block I Stingers, 110 Firing Units, and 110 night vision sights.

So we can guesstimate that Finland actually bought only about:

200 x Stinger RMP Blk I
40 x Firing Units + IR Sights

That's not a lot for a modern battlefield; especially if you might use 3 or more Stingers in an ambush pocket -- one guy fires a Stinger at a Ka-52 Alligator; the pilot sees it and flares go out and it evades....

...only to find out that the Ukrainians have carefully positioned several more stingers to the sides of the main shooter; so that no matter which way the helicopter evades, it's turning towards a Stinger Shooter. :eek:

[DRG]

There is one interesting addition this year.......
https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16677&stc=1&d=1648177488

[Wdll]

There is one interesting addition this year.......
https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16677&stc=1&d=1648177488

Is that the child of the Batplane and the SR-71?

[DRG]

Switchblade drone
https://www.popsci.com/technology/switchblade-drones-explained/
https://www.avinc.com/tms/switchblade

Supporting conventional or special operations forces in the field or from fixed defensive positions, the combat-proven Switchblade 300 with patented wave-off feature is the ideal loitering missile for use against beyond-line-of-sight targets. Backpackable and rapidly deployable from air, sea or ground platforms, Switchblade 300 delivers increased warfighter lethality with real-time GPS coordinates and video for precise targeting with low collateral effects.

It uses the NLOS weapons class and has special targeting instructions that are included with the units that have it which is one in the US OOB, one in the Ukrainian OOB and one in the UK OOB ( UK starting 2023)

Only a HQ , dedicated forward observer or light helicopter can target using NLOS and that unit must be able to see the target.*
*
To target an NLOS unit first press the " I " key with the spotter unit and you will see a list of the NLOS firing units available on the Right. You can click on any of the listed NLOS units to select it as the current firing unit. Once you have the firing unit unit you want you can click on a target on the map or use the ' N(ext) ' or 'P(revious)' keys to go to the next or previous target. Once you have your target and firer pair as you wish it, then press the ' F ' key to fire the unit and the firing sequence will begin. NLOS units that have used their shots for that turn will disappear from the list of available units*


it's not a perfect adaptation of the weapon but it's "close enough" it has a WH similar to a 40mm GL

[DRG]

Slightly relevant.
I am in a generated campaign (Greece vs Russia 2022) and the first 2 (or 3?) battles it was a cakewalk. I mean even though the AI had a bonus in points to purchase stuff, it was really easy for me. Which is a RARE thing against powerful armies such as Russia.
In the current (3rd or 4th) battle while it was again easy to capture all the flags and clear our most of the map, I found some enemy troops "hiding" in the southern part where there was nothing really important. Cocky as I was I sent my vehicles (Leo2, BMP1, M113) to quickly mop up any enemy forces. In about 5 turns I think I lost more tanks and helos than I lost in all the previous battles combined. Didn't use infantry first, didn't prepare with artillery fire, didn't..didn't..didn't. One stupid mistake after another. One cocky mistake after another. I have to say, I almost enjoyed having my *** handed to me like that.


My SP "having my *** handed to me " story goes back to the Original SP playing a long campaign as the Germans ( so considerably fewer units to deal with ) and I had, over time carefully preserved my core and built up to the best I could buy from the stock SP1 OOB up to Dec 1944.

Everything went well up to January 1945 when the AI unleashed an air attack like I had never seen before or since that devastated most of my armour. I had the previous save game so I tried again...... again hell from the sky..... restarted a third time -------same thing no matter what I tried to do differently. The AI unleashed a swarm of aircraft and I still have very clear memories of it. This would have been 1996

[Wdll]

Slightly relevant.
I am in a generated campaign (Greece vs Russia 2022) and the first 2 (or 3?) battles it was a cakewalk. I mean even though the AI had a bonus in points to purchase stuff, it was really easy for me. Which is a RARE thing against powerful armies such as Russia.
In the current (3rd or 4th) battle while it was again easy to capture all the flags and clear our most of the map, I found some enemy troops "hiding" in the southern part where there was nothing really important. Cocky as I was I sent my vehicles (Leo2, BMP1, M113) to quickly mop up any enemy forces. In about 5 turns I think I lost more tanks and helos than I lost in all the previous battles combined. Didn't use infantry first, didn't prepare with artillery fire, didn't..didn't..didn't. One stupid mistake after another. One cocky mistake after another. I have to say, I almost enjoyed having my *** handed to me like that.


My SP "having my *** handed to me " story goes back to the Original SP playing a long campaign as the Germans ( so considerably fewer units to deal with ) and I had, over time carefully preserved my core and built up to the best I could buy from the stock SP1 OOB up to Dec 1944.

Everything went well up to January 1945 when the AI unleashed an air attack like I had never seen before or since that devastated most of my armour. I had the previous save game so I tried again...... again hell from the sky..... restarted a third time -------same thing no matter what I tried to do differently. The AI unleashed a swarm of aircraft and I still have very clear memories of it. This would have been 1996


One more reason to like this game.

Oh yeah, till this moment air was my main threat. Their Mig-31something just kept attacking me, with quite good results for them. Unfortunately my Patriots rarely fired and my ASRAD rarely hit. No complaints, just stating that airplanes can be a pain. :)

[Mobhack]

Some Area SAM can have longer min ranges than the map size - in which case they would only be useful for shooting at planes making stand-off attacks, not those coming on the map itself, helos etc.

[Imp]

Not been following heavily but the most obvious thing to take from this is stop always using the best equipment available. I wonder if Russia just expected the Ukraine to capitulate when faced with such a massive force. For the first few days they played nice limiting collateral damage I think that changed when they realised it was not going to be quick as expected.

The big problem is while there is a lot of coverage its cherry picked & biased. The question is who are we watching in action I believe a lot of troops were pulled from the Eastern Military District. My guess as they are facing China probably worse trained & equipment that is not upgraded. As said not following but a lot of vehicles do not seem to have Arena for example.
Is this really a surprise your not talking outfitting a few hundred or at most a few thousand tanks.
Slightly surprising is the level of incompetence shown but we generally only see the success stories. As mentioned elsewhere editing is a wonderful thing to.

[zovs66]

This is a pretty fair and balanced French site (my browser auto translates).

https://lavoiedelepee.blogspot.com/

So far the consensus seems to be that there is a lot of disinformation coming from both sides, the West and the Media seems to support Ukraine and is depicting that Russia is the bad evil invaders (where the US gets a pass for doing the same in the Middle East) and the Russians (almost typed Soviets, lol) has really failed/dropped the ball when it comes to the operational art of war, in particular combined arms.

So its a bloody mess with no end in site.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and there will be no thermal nuclear war. But nothing is guaranteed and with the West backed by the frenzied Media wanting a war with Russia and with an idiot like Biden sitting on the button, anyone's guess on our future.

We have gone from a pandemic to the brink of nuclear war in just two short years.

China has remained silent, waiting in the wings to launch there agenda.

And no I don't trust the government, especially the new administration.

[Wdll]

This is a pretty fair and balanced French site (my browser auto translates).

https://lavoiedelepee.blogspot.com/

So far the consensus seems to be that there is a lot of disinformation coming from both sides, the West and the Media seems to support Ukraine and is depicting that Russia is the bad evil invaders (where the US gets a pass for doing the same in the Middle East) and the Russians (almost typed Soviets, lol) has really failed/dropped the ball when it comes to the operational art of war, in particular combined arms.

So its a bloody mess with no end in site.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and there will be no thermal nuclear war. But nothing is guaranteed and with the West backed by the frenzied Media wanting a war with Russia and with an idiot like Biden sitting on the button, anyone's guess on our future.

We have gone from a pandemic to the brink of nuclear war in just two short years.

China has remained silent, waiting in the wings to launch there agenda.

And no I don't trust the government, especially the new administration.

At least you are objective. *sarcasm*

BTW, what the USA or anyone else has done in the past is irrelevant, unless Russia invaded USA. I do NOT agree that USA and allies have done the same thing, but using that hypothetical as an excuse is like robbing someone because someone else has robbed someone third so you might as well rob one yourself.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

War have been fought not necessarily to conquer other people in general, but to conquer the land they live in. To "Expand the Empire" loosely speaking and to take advantage of the geographical and resource situation.

Russia does definitely want to take Ukraine in the long haul. However, their near terms tactical and strategic goals have faltered thus far the drive on Kiev has stopped and with a counter offensive to the NW/NNW and the stiff resistance they are encountering along the S/SE Coast.

Those goal were 1. Take out the capital and Decapite the government. I would argue the following is of more importance 2. Establish a "land bridge" in Eastern Ukraine from the breakaway providences to Crimea and onward to Odessa which would consolidate their 2014 gains and essentially also give them unchallenged control of both the Sea of Azov and the Black Sea.

Anyone seeing where I'm going yet?

About those resources I've seen the following online and CINCLANTHOME has shown it to me on Facebook. Yes, the economics lesson is coming with modification I'll be using the same material but as fact checked by "Snopes" since they did some fact checking. They do the same work as "Onyx" if that doesn't you can check them out yourselves.

Why did Hitler want the Ukraine? Or Russia after WWI? Or "Uncle Joe"
in his time enough so that 3+ million Ukrainians would die from famine? So, their people could get feed instead.

Just before the war it was found that the Ukraine was rich in other natural resources. So, besides the above I'll give what I believe is the rest of the story long term beyond the ego and the past glory of the Soviet Union to be reborn. :rolleyes:

You to look at this as I have from a somewhat purely economic perspective by coupling the following based on what you know or think you know about Russia's natural resources. For instance, Russia is the world's 3rd largest producer of oil in the world accounting for 12% -15% of the world's supply based on source.

So now to Ukraine:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/why-does-ukraine-matter/
https://www.emsnow.com/ukrainian-russian-conflict-affects-semiconductor-gas-supply-and-may-cause-rise-in-chip-production-costs-says-trendforce/

Toyota and I believe, it was Ford will be closing down their USA plants next week for 1 and 2 weeks respectively. Why? Lack of global supply of computer chips that has recently worsened and not from Covid-19 that caused the issue in the first place ~1.5 yrs. ago.

I'm not afraid at all to say that very recently a much more narrowed trend of political views have started to pop up. Which quite frankly, I personally don't appreciate.

When I see pictures of Mariupol, Ukraine I think of the images of London, Hannover (Where my mom lived through MANY bombings as a preteenager.), Cologne, Dresden, Toyko and their more modern counterparts.

My point is, it's nice to be in our homes while others have lost theirs and others as well.

Let's try to keep the politics out of this.

It's damm hard enough to just get reasonable data and information as it is, without having to deal with the rest.

To Andy and Don if I've overstepped my bounds, I extend my apologies.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

This is a pretty fair and balanced French site (my browser auto translates).

https://lavoiedelepee.blogspot.com/

Yes, in particular.......

Appearance of improvised explosive devices (IED in English) in the area occupied by the 58th A ( Kherson region). Beginning of a rear guerrilla warfare.

AND THIS

Theory: Exhaustion

A month of continuous combat constitutes a psychological limit beyond which there is a rapid increase in collapses. Half of the evacuees then often show no physical injuries, assuming that they can be evacuated. After a month of intense fighting at Dien Bien Phu, a fifth of the defenders had "deserted in place" pending the end of the fighting along the Nam Youn River.

All of this is obviously highly variable, depending on the intensity of the fighting, the experience and the individual and collective solidity of the fighters, their motivation, but it is likely that a certain number of units engaged without interruption since the first days of combat in Ukraine (notably the Russian units west of kyiv or most of the forces engaged in Mariupol) are on the verge of psychic collapse. In these cases, it is not a replenishment forward that must be organized but a relief, and it is not obvious that the forces in combat in Ukraine, Russians in particular, are always capable of it.

[wulfir]

Everything went well up to January 1945 when the AI unleashed an air attack like I had never seen before or since that devastated most of my armour.


That happened to me too. SP1, German "Long Campaign". I think I made it to April 45 and there was this battle vs the US Army with plane after plane coming in (IIRC Marauders)...

[DRG]

Everything went well up to January 1945 when the AI unleashed an air attack like I had never seen before or since that devastated most of my armour.


That happened to me too. SP1, German "Long Campaign". I think I made it to April 45 and there was this battle vs the US Army with plane after plane coming in (IIRC Marauders)...


Yes that sounds exactly like what happened to me and it was single and double engines aircraft as well. I recall B-25s but it may have been Marauders

[DRG]

APS can't work if APS isn't installed.

To this date, there is one (1) confirmed Russian tank with Hard-APS (aka projectiles hitting incoming munitions) destroyed (the lone T-80UM prototype).

There is a LOT of seemingly conflicting information and the installation or not of Arena is one of them

This is REPORTED TO BE a photo taken in Ukraine

https://i.redd.it/ld5qkvyflgf81.jpg

The Arena tubes are clearly visible

This is also REPORTED TO BE a photo taken in Ukraine

https://i.redd.it/zw8avc6n0rs61.jpg

That is early style Kontakt ERA

This article from 2017 https://informnapalm.org/en/russia-amasses-decommissioned-t-72b-and-t-80bv-tanks-at-ukrainian-border/

claims Russia amasses decommissioned T-72B and T-80BV tanks at Ukrainian border

for use by the L/DPR

but it may very well be that there is a wider mix of new and old equipment than assumed but chances are it will be months ( at best ) that we know for sure ( Maybe)

[zovs66]

About conflicting information.

On the one side we have Ukraine and NATO reports of Russian losses in the 10-15k range in men, but from the Russian side you have an "official" report of 1,300 men in losses.

And then in the media (west and Ukrainian) you have images of tanks lost from 2-5 years ago, and nothing coming out of Russia.

Disinformation and propaganda on both sides.

[Aeraaa]

10-15K makes more sense than 1300 losses. the first number corresponds to 1.8-2.7 casualties/1000 troops/day. These are normal casualties for conventional operations of high intensity (even higher than that makes sense). The official number is basically a number vs. a very weak opponent, i.e. insurgents or similar type of enemy.

Ukrainian losses are probably on that range too (maybe slightly higher or slightly lower depending on how effective Russian firepower was). Note that losses from both sides can skyrocket if a major operational disaster happens (eg. supply trains breaking down or an encirclement).

[zovs66]

I am sure folks have read the Russian "official" reports.

"Russia - 1,351 dead and 3,825 wounded. ( 5176 totally looses for first month)
Ukraine - roughly 30,000, 14 thousand - dead, 16 thousand wounded."

And the Ukrainian and NATO reports.

"NATO estimates that, in total, 30,000 to 40,000 Russian troops have been killed, wounded or taken prisoner in Ukraine — an estimate based on the assumption that for every soldier killed, three are wounded, the official added."

So its like both sides are flipping the losses around and neither can be relied on. So it just seems to depend on who or which side you believe is telling the truth.

Most likely we wont know for years to come.

[DRG]

So its like both sides are flipping the losses around and neither can be relied on. So it just seems to depend on who or which side you believe is telling the truth.

Most likely we wont know for years to come.

I will assume a lot of BS by both sides but IMHO the "truth" is probably (maybe) a bit closer to Ukrainian reports than Russians but by how much is unknown and I agree the whole truth will take years to know for sure ( we still don't know for sure what the WW2 casualties actually were ) but that said, 1,300 seems way too low given the amount of fighting and the lack of real progress

5176 vs 30,000 is a HUGE difference. If you halve what the Russians claim as the Ukraine estimate and double the Russian you end up with 10,000 - 15,000 either way, it's a lot on both sides

Has anyone seen a list of Ukraines reported combat casualties?

[wulfir]

Has anyone seen a list of Ukraines reported combat casualties?

Don't know if this guy has been mentioned - most people here is probably familiar with him, he does lists on (equipment) losses where there's some kind of photo or video confirming it - so not likely to be a list of all the losses. He seems to know his stuff though:

https://twitter.com/oryxspioenkop?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Ese rp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html

[DRG]

I did a tiny edit on that last post as the quote was wrong

I have seen a post similar made I think by Blazoes earlier on but we have multiple Ukraine related posts and it's difficult to check back but thanks for reposting it. I thought I had saved the link but I hadn't and yes for every vehicle there is confirmation

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html

If you look at the first one that is reported to be a T-72B that shows what I thought was supposed to be the Arena launchers
but right now IDK for sure

https://i.postimg.cc/ZbMZg8ct/1366.png

[DRG]

The one that is shown as
T-72A: (1, destroyed)

Looks like the one that was shown in that ATGM attack / drone sequence near what looked like a gas station ( the green-roofed buildings )in a small town


https://i.postimg.cc/Prr1LXqZ/58.png

[DRG]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lem3enNkbV0

Debunking the myth of Russian 'cannon fodder' in Ukraine

One POV this ties in with the posted link above

The premise here is that old equipment DOES NOT make up the bulk of the losses

[jivemi]

FWIW here's a viddy by an apparently retired US major of British pedigree who served in Iraq as tank commander and Afghanistan as S-3 for his squadron and later as S-1 for a training unit. This is what he has to say about the use of edited footage about combat in Ukraine, including that now-famous ambush of a Russian armored column entering an urban area: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9pVEP0AzZ4&t=2s

[Karagin]

FWIW here's a viddy by an apparently retired US major of British pedigree who served in Iraq as tank commander and Afghanistan as S-3 for his squadron and later as S-1 for a training unit. This is what he has to say about the use of edited footage about combat in Ukraine, including that now-famous ambush of a Russian armored column entering an urban area: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9pVEP0AzZ4&t=2s

Shared that in one of the links on here as well. We are getting a lot of uhmm, well propaganda and how can I say it nicely, oh yes, bovine excrement from all sides. I personally DO NOT believe anything coming out of the Ukraine or Russia as far as reports go and all of the videos are a bit suspect and as Chieftain says, MISSING CONTEXT.

[DRG]

Yes and that is at least the fourth time it's been posted on these forums ( but I am glad people are watching it )

#23 and #43 on this thread alone

[jivemi]

Oops! Sorry 'bout that.

[Wdll]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lem3enNkbV0

Debunking the myth of Russian 'cannon fodder' in Ukraine

One POV this ties in with the posted link above

The premise here is that old equipment DOES NOT make up the bulk of the losses

I think I am going to cry.
It has finally happened.
Someone who knows the difference between hypothetical and theoretical/in theory.
It feels so good.
Thank you for sharing this video. Not only for the interesting content, but for the detail I mentioned. :)

[DRG]

It APPEARS that in some cases at least, the Ukrainians are using drones to spot fall of shot and there is enough drone footage of ambushes to support the idea that this while perhaps not common is not uncommon as well

You can see a drone prepared at one point, small mortars firing and one guy checking his phone

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCpyRVZw7aM

I am experimenting with observation drones in the light helicopter class as opposed to the AOP aircraft class. This allows full control over where they can go and adjust altitude ( just like a real drone ) AND it allows the drone to act as a FOO

The trade-off for this ability ( they are size zero with TI and 8 EW )is they are not cheap and they are not totally invulnerable to ground fire.

As I said, I'm still in the experimental stage with this but anyone interested can set one up and run their own tests and give feedback. The Icon and photo is just a placeholder for now and sound 19 does not exist in your games so don't use it

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16678&stc=1&d=1648380084



and


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-4Om_4n998

Now that is a $15,000 USD drone but consider what it is capable of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwCENsYJ-6k

that version is $14,000 CDN ( AND it has a built in range finder)

[DRG]

More "questionable" news coverage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0mwKfc5Ed8

Russian artillery control vehicle “Rheostat” seized in southern Ukraine!

That vehicle was introduced 36-years ago. The latest is the Zavet-D so capturing a vehicle like that while certainly worthwhile it's hardly worth making it a big issue

The tie in between this post, the Zavet-D and the one about drones is the Zavet-D is able to provide data exchange between drones and artillery crews.

[Wdll]

A funny parody, much better if you don't speak Russian, just go with the music and the subtitles. I laughed and thought to share it, for a break.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSzAnNU4u28

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well as has been reported thoroughly by reliable sources with analysis from some of our former Top Generals (i.e., U.S. NATO and European Commanders and more.) it looks like from my last post and updated today...

Page 6 Post 67...
"Those goals were 1. Take out the capital and Decapite the government. I would argue the following is of more importance."
Mine now-Currently Ukraine has done over the weekend, and I didn't watch the video as posted from Chieftain(?) and that is to counterattack to the WNW and NW of the capital. They've regained enough ground to push the Russian short and medium range artillery back far enough as not to be a factor for now. Some units have fallen back into Belarus to rest and refit while others have started to dig in. How long this will last is anyone's guess especially since there are also reports some other units have been shifted to the East to consolidate their gains and do what they can to finish off Ukrainian resistance in that part of the country.


"2. Establish a "land bridge" in Eastern Ukraine from the breakaway providences to Crimea and onward to Odessa which would consolidate their 2014 gains and essentially also give them unchallenged control of both the Sea of Azov and the Black Sea."
Mine now- Russian reinforcements have been pulled from Georgia (And there was much celebration!?!) to bolster Russian forces and remove Ukrainian resistance in the Dondas region.

Mariupol is still holding but for how long is the BIG question in importance I take you back to WWII and how important both Cherbourg and Antwerp for the allies' drive to Germany. Some reports indicate they pulled back some units from Odessa to put more pressure on Mariupol.

From both a tactical and strategic point this makes absolute sense to me. It is what I would do before attempting to take Odessa which would be the last major seaport the Ukrainians would have. It should be pointed out it's already under a "light" blockade until more naval units arrive from the Mediterranean Sea (They were already in route and should be there.).

Some of you might have noticed the map behind the Russian Generals from a news brief in Russia that showed Ukraine partitioned, unlike some current news reports (North and South Korea.) it offends my navigation training as I am very much more reminded of East and West Germany. It's a Compass Rose thing for me.

Those are my views as taken not from Cell Phones (When I retired in 2002 it also was retired. And I don't miss it.), Fox News, MSNBC or Blogs. That's how I roll.

Have a great day everyone and CINCLANTHOME got more shots in the mouth then last time. :(

Time to check on her!! :angel:

There "they" are again.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[zovs66]

This seems to be a pretty reasonable appreciation:

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-march-27

[Imp]

Now I have watched a few has anyone actually seen a tank kill by a Javelin? They seem oddly missing I have seen MBTLAW & various RPGs kill from the side as you would expect. The video often says its a Javelin but its not.

[DRG]

Thinking that if they were falling short of expectations we would have heard about it by now

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/us-made-javelin-missiles-are-vital-ukraines-fight-russia-experts-say-rcna20878



“The Javelins are the most sophisticated and most effective weapon the Ukrainians have, but not the most numerous,” Cancian said.

The Ukrainians have more Israeli-made NLOS “Spike” antitank missiles in their arsenal as well as German Panzerfaust 3 antitank weapons, Cancian said.


THAT is significant from my POV for three reasons


This is the first news I have read they have any Spikes
This is the first news I have read that the Ukrainians have NLOS Spikes.
I have been testing various NLOS weapons with my drone experiments and the two coupled together is highly effective


https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/01/11/ukraines-homemade-anti-tank-missile-has-been-blasting-more-and-more-rebel-vehicles/?sh=5649222743ca



The powerful Javelin anti-tank missiles that Ukraine has been getting from the United States tend to dominate the headlines.

That makes sense. The Javelins aren’t just highly effective weapons—they’re also symbols of U.S. support for Ukraine as a huge Russian army masses on the Russia-Ukraine border.

But the Ukrainian army has only a handful of Javelin launchers—47 from the United States plus an unspecified number that Estonia has pledged—and a few hundred of the 35-pound, 2.5-mile-range, infrared-guided missiles.

The huge majority of Ukraine’s anti-tank missile arsenal is locally made. And the local Stugna-P is proving to be just about as dangerous as the world-class Javelin. And cheaper.

We do have the Skif in the OOB and I just changed it to make it more selectable to the AI but ( I just discovered ) the Stugna-P was developed from the Skif so that's on the list to investigate ( that may be the Skif 2M-K ATGM W237 ),but I need to investigate further if the Ukrainians do indeed have NLOS Spikes

THIS says they do not

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/landwarfareintl/israel-treads-a-narrow-tightrope-says-no-to-spike/

Israel has decided not to authorise European users of Rafael Spike to donate the advanced ATGMs to Ukraine, so as avoid disrupting its fragile relationship with Russia that allows attacks on Iran-related targets in Syria.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

If you can do the search in the MBT Thread, you and I covered this ground when discussing getting these on the Ukrainian tanks about 3 years ago. What they had and what was coming most from Ukrainian Industry sources with "outside" ones as well.

Just throwing it out there to save you some work (maybe), we did several posts on the matter.

You might further look at as a reminder, there's a reason the JAVALINs the Ukrainians are using are so effective. Remember also they were to be "under lock and key" with U.S. approved storage and security measures before even one got into country. A couple of the refs included touched on this and the fact they couldn't use them without our authorization. Training missiles were the exception to facilitate training and qualification all addressed in those refs.
Infantry Served Weapons and Organization Page 5/Posts 43 & 44.

It was set up for submission also for the USA.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/03/see-why-ukraines-tank-busting-stugna-p-missiles-are-proving-so-effective/

Points out again how fluid and flexible "information" is The Forbes article was published Jan 11 and claimed " the Ukrainian army has only a handful of Javelin launchers"

The ABC report that mentioned Spike NLOS was made March 22 but I question it and now we have info thats there are Milans in Ukraine as well

This article claims....."A month into its struggle against the Russian invasion, Ukraine’s military has received well over 5,000 Javelin ATGMs from multiple countries and Milan missiles from France."

Obviously a lot can ( and apparently had ) happened between Jan 11 and now but that first link claims......

...... the Stugna-P is in many ways comparable to established ATGMs like the Russian Kornet and U.S. TOW. It has a sight/guidance system which can lock onto a distant target, or the operator can semi-automatically steer the missile in flight by aiming a targeting reticle. Either way, the fire control system calculates course corrections and uses a laser on the launcher to transmit them to the missile via an optical receiver on its tail.

The missile can be programmed to dive down from 10 meters high towards the thinner top armor of a tank, though at a shallower angle than would a U.S. Javelin missile. This capability can be seen in some combat footage.

The standard 130-millimetre RK-2S missile has a 22-pound tandem-charge warhead designed to preemptively trip the bricks of explosive reactive armor (ERA) liberally applied to protect Russian tanks, and can penetrate 800 millimetres RHA behind reactive armor. That’s just enough to penetrate the frontal armor of Russia’s best-protected tanks (T-90A, T-72B3, T-80U, T-80BVM)…if the warhead’s tandem warhead can bypass Russian Kontkat-5 or Relikt ERA as claimed.

There’s a more powerful 152-millimetre caliber RK-2M missile that can penetrate 1100 meters ( EDIt... that is their error it should read millimetres NOT " meters) RHA and has 10% greater range and speed, but it’s unclear whether Ukraine uses it operationally. For anti-personnel targets there’s also high-explosive and thermobaric variants.

The Stugna differs, however from many ATGMs in its control system, which allows the three-person crew to set up the launcher on its tripod from an ideal firing position, and remotely control it from cover, or even from an underground bunker, using a laptop-like control system connected to the launcher by a 50-meter-long cable.

So duel charge AND top attack capable.

We do already have the Stugna in the OOB but it's set up as a vehicle mounted system but there may be more than one "Stugna" and that is what I am investigating now but it would appear that w237 in the OOB now as "Skif 2M-K ATGM" is the larger 152mm missile and w236 is the 130mm verison

https://root-nation.com/en/articles-en/weapons-en/en-weapons-atgm-stugna-p-review/

[DRG]

https://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2022/03/09/la-france-livre-des-missiles-antichars-milan-a-l-ukraine_6116758_3210.html



France delivers Milan anti-tank missiles to Ukraine
In addition to protective equipment, Paris has provided kyiv with "a few dozen" of these weapons, used by infantry troops against tanks and armored vehicles.

Taken from the stocks of the French army, the quantity seems, for the time being, to have remained modest – “a few dozen”, between February 28 and March 3, according to a diplomatic source.

[carp]

Neither the Javelins nor the Stingers from the US are being shipped as the weapons the US military uses. They have had the most recent classified guidance bits removed and are export versions. This means any updating of the UA kit would have to have different versions developed for use in one game. That may be a bit of a chore. I don't know about the NLAWS. I haven't seen any reports from the UK on what they are sending.

[DRG]

It may make a slight difference in RL. It won't in the game

[Wdll]

Any idea what this recoilless rifle is?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKLnX-TcBn8

[Aeraaa]

Any idea what this recoilless rifle is?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKLnX-TcBn8

SPG-9 if I'm not mistaken.

[DRG]

A lot of new things in the Ukrainian OOB for next release.

Recent additions were 40mm Mk 19's. A photo exists of boxes with 40-mm Mk 19 ammo unloaded from an American aircraft at Boryspil Airport on October 10, 2021 and the Supply Classification code for "Machine Gun, 40mm, MK19 Mod III" was seen being unloaded Jan 28. 2022

https://mil.in.ua/uk/news/ssha-peredaly-ukrayini-40-mm-avtomatychni-granatomety-mk-19/

It was recently announced that Australia is sending Bushmaster PMV's that may possibly be in Ukraine in May -June 2022

[DRG]

Any idea what this recoilless rifle is?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKLnX-TcBn8

We need to investigate just who uses what armbands like the info on the Russian vehicle markings

Those troops had white bands. Normally Ukraine uses yellow

The text for that video mentions" Russia-backed forces in Mariupol" but earlier footage shows troops in yellow armbands. The ones with the RR are wearing white

One quote found

Ukrainian forces are using yellow and blue.

Russian forces are using a bizarre collection of white/red/silver/and the ribbon of Saint George.

Soldiers wearing white armbands seen patrolling Ukraine's Kherson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YJo2vlGAOQ

That video has this comment.........."hite armband were to indentified this russian brigade as the 17th motorized rifle brigade that were deployed in donbas as early as 2014."

Still digging but it looks like the RR team is not Ukrainian

FURTHER

https://fresno24.com/what-do-the-colored-ribbons-mean-for-russian-and-ukrainian-soldiers-here-is-the-answer/



The purpose of this marking is to be able to distinguish between the warring parties: the Russians mostly use white or red, and the Ukrainians use yellow armbands for this purpose. In addition to the armbands, the Russian soldiers can also see the pattern of the “St. George Ribbon”, which is one of the national symbols of Russia.

In the “normal” case, such markings would not be necessary, as one of the purposes of the uniform would be precisely to make it easy to distinguish the fighting sides. However, there is a significant overlap between the equipment of the Russian and Ukrainian forces: the vast majority of both sides use Soviet remnant technology or modernized versions of it, so the silhouette of their vehicles and soldiers is very similar.

But there are also covert patterns that are specifically used by both sides: for example, the Russian and Ukrainian special operations units have standardized the multicam pattern, making it almost impossible to distinguish between these formations, and even their helmets are almost the same. . The Russians would also use a surprisingly large number of samples based on the A-TACS, which could be remotely confused with the Ukrainian MM-14 sample because of its shades.

It is also hampered by the fact that, since the beginning of the conflict, both sides have apparently been looser in applying uniform rules on the wearing of uniforms and a large number of irregular militias without uniforms are fighting on the Ukrainian side. only their identification is the yellow armband.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

White Arm Bands - Russian troops as identified early on.

This might explain the other Russian colors.
https://www.forces.net/russia/ribbon-saint-george-russias-version-remembrance-poppy

Blue or Yellow worn separately or together Ukrainian troops.

Both - Are wearing their country flag patches on their sleeves.

Seen some pointing out in videos and photos where Russian troops are wearing black boots and Ukrainian wearing brown- or dessert-colored ones.

Also found this interesting...
https://www.migjimenez.com/img/cms/PDF/Ukranian_Conflict_Colors_ENG.pdf

Also, a bunch of stories about this on the web...I little "psyops"...
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/mar/24/ukraine-facial-recognition-identify-russian-soldiers

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Imp]

Thinking that if they were falling short of expectations we would have heard about it by now

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/us-made-javelin-missiles-are-vital-ukraines-fight-russia-experts-say-rcna20878



“The Javelins are the most sophisticated and most effective weapon the Ukrainians have, but not the most numerous,” Cancian said.

The Ukrainians have more Israeli-made NLOS “Spike” antitank missiles in their arsenal as well as German Panzerfaust 3 antitank weapons, Cancian said.


THAT is significant from my POV for three reasons


This is the first news I have read they have any Spikes
This is the first news I have read that the Ukrainians have NLOS Spikes.
I have been testing various NLOS weapons with my drone experiments and the two coupled together is highly effective


https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/01/11/ukraines-homemade-anti-tank-missile-has-been-blasting-more-and-more-rebel-vehicles/?sh=5649222743ca



The powerful Javelin anti-tank missiles that Ukraine has been getting from the United States tend to dominate the headlines.

That makes sense. The Javelins aren’t just highly effective weapons—they’re also symbols of U.S. support for Ukraine as a huge Russian army masses on the Russia-Ukraine border.

But the Ukrainian army has only a handful of Javelin launchers—47 from the United States plus an unspecified number that Estonia has pledged—and a few hundred of the 35-pound, 2.5-mile-range, infrared-guided missiles.

The huge majority of Ukraine’s anti-tank missile arsenal is locally made. And the local Stugna-P is proving to be just about as dangerous as the world-class Javelin. And cheaper.

We do have the Skif in the OOB and I just changed it to make it more selectable to the AI but ( I just discovered ) the Stugna-P was developed from the Skif so that's on the list to investigate ( that may be the Skif 2M-K ATGM W237 ),but I need to investigate further if the Ukrainians do indeed have NLOS Spikes

THIS says they do not

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/landwarfareintl/israel-treads-a-narrow-tightrope-says-no-to-spike/

Israel has decided not to authorise European users of Rafael Spike to donate the advanced ATGMs to Ukraine, so as avoid disrupting its fragile relationship with Russia that allows attacks on Iran-related targets in Syria.

Lots of contradictory stuff out there I read while Israel has been asked several times for Spike they have not supplied any.

[Wdll]

Thinking that if they were falling short of expectations we would have heard about it by now

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/us-made-javelin-missiles-are-vital-ukraines-fight-russia-experts-say-rcna20878



“The Javelins are the most sophisticated and most effective weapon the Ukrainians have, but not the most numerous,” Cancian said.

The Ukrainians have more Israeli-made NLOS “Spike” antitank missiles in their arsenal as well as German Panzerfaust 3 antitank weapons, Cancian said.


THAT is significant from my POV for three reasons


This is the first news I have read they have any Spikes
This is the first news I have read that the Ukrainians have NLOS Spikes.
I have been testing various NLOS weapons with my drone experiments and the two coupled together is highly effective


https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/01/11/ukraines-homemade-anti-tank-missile-has-been-blasting-more-and-more-rebel-vehicles/?sh=5649222743ca




We do have the Skif in the OOB and I just changed it to make it more selectable to the AI but ( I just discovered ) the Stugna-P was developed from the Skif so that's on the list to investigate ( that may be the Skif 2M-K ATGM W237 ),but I need to investigate further if the Ukrainians do indeed have NLOS Spikes

THIS says they do not

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/landwarfareintl/israel-treads-a-narrow-tightrope-says-no-to-spike/

Israel has decided not to authorise European users of Rafael Spike to donate the advanced ATGMs to Ukraine, so as avoid disrupting its fragile relationship with Russia that allows attacks on Iran-related targets in Syria.

Lots of contradictory stuff out there I read while Israel has been asked several times for Spike they have not supplied any.


As long as Israel needs Russia's lenience to keep letting them hit targets in Syria, you won't see much direct support. Well...all things considered.

[Wdll]

Good footage from what looks like a Mi-28N getting cut in half from something. According to the video it's a Starstreak missile, though obviously I don't know about that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXnjQmoV2D8

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

As I had already posted, the timing should be right for the Ukraine to start operating them. UK had already shipped them out.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/uk-supplying-starstreak-anti-aircraft-missiles-ukraine-defence-minister-wallace-2022-03-16/
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2022_global_security_army_indus try/uk_to_provide_starstreak_man-portable_air_defense_missile_systems_to_ukraine.ht ml
(This is the one I posted. earlier.)
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/british-supplied-missile-downs-russian-helicopter-in-ukraine/

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Wdll]

And this is why distance is important.
I don't think I have seen any more clear footage of an attack on a tank, but at the same time a silly mistake.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3T8FfOvBBI

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I had already earlier yesterday morning confirmed the use of the STARSTREAK anti-air missile attack on a Russian Mil Mi-28 Havoc (This is my opinion based on the video.) attack helicopter. The following should bring closure to this issue.

What is different, for whatever reason, is the response from Russia concerning the STARSTREAK. Obviously, it would seem they are much more concerned about STARSTREAK then our STINGER 2 anti-air missile.

The UK STARSTREAK did get updated within the last 3-4 years if memory serves.

Might have to run a comparison between the two systems. I further would point out not to underestimate what or what not they're getting. For instance, the JAVALIN and STINGER 2 missile systems came out of our European pre-deployed storage facilities meant for our troops. How else did they get them so fast at the start of the war?

Unlike the UK, they didn't threaten us over our STINGER 2.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-vows-to-target-british-weapons-as-uk-missile-downs-helicopter/ar-AAVMVP2?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=53e3e1bce00d40edaee14c131909c239

I have other tasking at the moment.

Don if you see this, know I'm looking onto the Czech T-72 tanks. Along with NATO we've signaled that we'll assist in getting them into the Ukraine.

Also looks like the Ukraine is also from some pictures I've seen, are operating captured Russian T-72B3 tanks. This still needs further investigation on my part. I'm NOT ready to "jump off the bridge" for this yet.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/us-to-assist-allies-moving-soviet-tanks-to-ukraine-report/ar-AAVLM0a?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnbfcL

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

It's impossible to keep up with every breaking development in Ukraine. We just try to keep up as best we can

[Karagin]

Seems Germany is giving BMP-1s to Ukraine from OLD East Germany stocks...I wonder how bad a shape these things will be in?

[DRG]

This may be of interest

Ukrainian Conflict - Tank Recognition

A guide on how to tell apart different tanks that are taking part in the Ukrainian Conflict. Both Russian and Ukrainian tanks are a part of this guide. From T-64BV, T-72B to T-72B3M and T-80BVM, all tanks that have taken part in the conflict so far.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2doYYblaLFU

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Not one to go back and forth to this wonderful video, here's the written companion to the video.
https://tankrecognition.blogspot.com/2022/03/ukrainian-conflict-tank-recognition.html

To the German offer of BMP-1 I can assure you Germany will not give non refurbished equipment to Ukraine if for no other reasons that it would both embarrass and cause criticism them.

And there are also international legal issues that could arise. And most important it might also adversely affect their foreign weapons sales.

That being said, they wouldn't have to offer to upgrade them in any way.

That will be the thing to keep track of, if they do.

As already posted KMW was offering from their private stock around 50-55 GEPHARPS SPAA systems, it was indicated they would update the radar systems and possibly the FCS as well. They of the latest version that last served in the BUNDESWEHR.

I would not be surprised if we don't see them in country within the next 3-4 months and 6 months (We call that "hedging your bet(s)") at the outside. ;)

And now we have this (I hope there'll be no reprisals but...) and BUCHA also.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukrainian-civilians-kill-russian-soldiers-with-poisoned-cakes-report/ar-AAVOynb?li=BBorjTa&ocid=mailsignout

Makes me glad I served under the seas compared to some... never mind.

Regards
Pat
:capt:

[Karagin]

Not one to go back and forth to this wonderful video, here's the written companion to the video.
https://tankrecognition.blogspot.com/2022/03/ukrainian-conflict-tank-recognition.html

To the German offer of BMP-1 I can assure you Germany will not give non refurbished equipment to Ukraine if for no other reasons that it would both embarrass and cause criticism them.

And there are also international legal issues that could arise. And most important it might also adversely affect their foreign weapons sales.

That being said, they wouldn't have to offer to upgrade them in any way.

That will be the thing to keep track of, if they do.

As already posted KMW was offering from their private stock around 50-55 GEPHARPS SPAA systems, it was indicated they would update the radar systems and possibly the FCS as well. They of the latest version that last served in the BUNDESWEHR.

I would not be surprised if we don't see them in country within the next 3-4 months and 6 months (We call that "hedging your bet(s)") at the outside. ;)

And now we have this (I hope there'll be no reprisals but...) and BUCHA also.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukrainian-civilians-kill-russian-soldiers-with-poisoned-cakes-report/ar-AAVOynb?li=BBorjTa&ocid=mailsignout

Makes me glad I served under the seas compared to some... never mind.

Regards
Pat
:capt:

Saw on Facebook that these BMPs are going to the Czech Republic and then to Ukraine. I am sure that they will be in wonderful condition and functional, unlike the MANPADs Germany sent.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Yeah, that was stupid and yes, an embarrassment. I wish I could still speck or read German to see if there was any fallout from that.

It goes against my "inherited" sense of efficiency and organization!?!

It'll be interesting to see within the next few weeks what other weapons get into the Ukraine such as those Czech Republic T-72M and S-300 systems from Slovenia I believe I posted already.

I've paid more attention to those videos looking very closely at the camo paint schemes on both countries armor. Well that Armor modeling site has absolutely got it right from what I've seen to date. That was a day or two ago.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

You computer guys might like this.
A little play on an Old School song "Hackers Delight" as they've very active in Russia of late...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/anonymous-apparently-behind-doxing-of-120k-russian-soldiers-in-ukraine-war/ar-AAVOGp5?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnbfcL

Also, since this was posted seems there's some unconfirmed stories Russia has shot down a handful or less of their fighters.

But the following is confirmed story deals with why Russia is using one of their best fighter bombers to drop "DUMB" bombs in Ukraine? Also how good is it's EW after reading this?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/the-russian-air-force-is-losing-its-best-jets-over-ukraine/ar-AAVCJJN?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=0d728a5681224933b90e4766abfb1bda
http://www.military-today.com/aircraft/su34_fullback.htm

I think I'm taking the rest of the day off, OK MAYBE!?!
Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[wulfir]

I think the German BMP-1s are ex Swedish PBV 501s.

In the 90s Sweden bought discount ex NVA kit from Germany, MTLB and BMP-1s to give infantry brigades shrapnel protection. The BMP-1s were initially meant for use in northern Sweden IIRC but the narrow tracks did poorly in snow. The MTLB (Pbv 401 saw use, but have since been sold to Finland).

The PBV 501s were modified but never really used by any units. Eventually sold back to the Czech company that did the modifications. I heard some of them went to equip the new Iraqi army. I guess they had some left.

[DRG]

This is for anyone who is Ukrainian or can read Ukrainian or has access to the kind of data apparently ONLY WE USE

How many troops in a Ukrainian platoon?

I think it is three sections of 8

crappy translation

The company of protection of the military commissariat has the following structure:

• management of the company
• 4 platoons of protection
number of company 121 persons



Right now I have that as close as the game can be with 4 plt's in a Coy and a command and some support units but it is near impossible to find a breakdown at the company -> section level and right now I feel what I have in there now for the Territorials is " good enough" but if anyone knows of a source let me know where it is ASAP

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

This is "live" from these refs...
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/inside-secret-ukrainian-hospital-wounded-26632401
Artem said: “We were in a reconnaissance group of about 35 soldiers, and we laid a trap, getting ready to attack them and then opened fire.

3 Battalions in a Brigade
https://www.ukrmilitary.com/p/ukrainian-ground-forces.html

Went to their Defense Ministry and there's no help there.

Didn't do Wiki but pops on on my search variations.

Following though off topic came up on one or two of searches might be useful for a campaign builder.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/ukraine-crisis

Losing my light maybe a BRISK walk will clear my head on a different approach to the question.

Pat

[Imp]

Some Observations
I think quite a lot of the Russian tanks are not fully equipped as in none functional ERA & pre Arena active defence systems are not very good.
Does it need to be looking in the direction the shot is coming from to work?
Reasoning for this.
During Chechenia some tanks were definitely deployed without ERA & I do not remember active protection systems being very effective then.

From photographic evidence two things tend to happen when tanks are hit.
Either catastrophic ammo explosion & flying turrets, seems to happen to virtually all tanks involved in that engagement.
I would postulate despite looking like they have ERA they are not functional.
The other result is the tank being penetrated or despite the fact its a flank shot surviving the first 1 or 2 attacks. These do not initially blow up though they might do so later but the crew often have time to get out.
These have ERA it can stop shots & if penetrated it absorbs a lot of the energy hence no ammo cook off. As they may explode later I would also say fire suppression capability is poor.
Game terms survivability should be less in tanks with no or limited ERA.

To me if you think about it both outfitting the vehicles & training suffer due to the size of the army. Your not talking about outfitting a couple hundred or even a few thousand tanks like Western countries.
The cost would be prohibitive as would training them all to a decent standard. Training rounds for example how many would you need to train everyone to a decent level, then of course there is maintenance costs.

Game terms you would need another OOB troop & tank quality could vary greatly in my view. Also I think Russia expected the Ukraine to just give up when faced with an army of that size, I would bet a lot of the tanks involved in the military exercise are lacking their ERA.


On APS I have only seen 1 tank equipped with a modern active protection system & that looked like it was destroyed by artillery.
Also ATGM use seems rare possibly due to the nature of most engagements. My guess RPG type weapons are preferred because you can pop out take the shot & run.

For me the jury is out I do not know if Arena on is effective or not.
Game terms we have 2 systems I think one should remain as is to represent things like Trophy & possibly Arena & the other should be really dumbed down.

These are just observations make of them what you will not researched anything.

As a side note the Ukraine air force seems to be surviving by using the roads & nape of the earth. Laughed when I saw the fighter that returned with a road sign attached, they are flying low.

[DRG]

Andy and I are of the opinion that, in Ukraine at least, Arena installation is NOT as common as was thought and I have, for the game AI anyway, made Arena tanks radio code 91 ( rare ) and introduced some versions without it that are radio code 92 (common ) which cuts down on the number of them showing up under AI control

What I had been lead to believe was the later gen arena launchers appear now to be just smoke grenade launchers

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16691&stc=1&d=1649151352

So it would appear the effectiveness or lack of in regards to Arena is more a case of it just not being installed in the majority

OR given most of the wrecks ***appear*** to have been made that way from attacks to the side it is just not that effective from that direction

OR

all or any of the above

[Wdll]

Never expected to see this in reality, but here is footage of something it's not that uncommon in the game.
An ATGM shooting down a helo.

https://twitter.com/Conflicts/status/1511289960862789635?s=20&t=6SjKuCFCUovUD7zvlfDdgg

[DRG]

As a side note the Ukraine air force seems to be surviving by using the roads & nape of the earth. Laughed when I saw the fighter that returned with a road sign attached, they are flying low.


https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-jet-ukraine-idUSL2N2VX2PI


Social media users have shared a collage showing photos of a Ukrainian jet they say flew so low it crashed into a road sign. While the incident traces back to August 2020, some online have shared it in the context of the Russian invasion in 2022.

[DRG]

Some Observations
I think quite a lot of the Russian tanks are not fully equipped as in none functional ERA & pre Arena active defence systems are not very good.
Does it need to be looking in the direction the shot is coming from to work?.

For the systems to work they need to be installed and if installed.... turned on. There are no reports ( we are seeing ) that indicated any attacking missiles were defeated by anti-missle systems and that could be for anyone of three reasons


They just are not installed as extensively as assumed
They just don't work
They weren't activated


Any one of those or all three. Shora ( VRRS ) (it would appear) needs to pick up the targetting laser for the missle. If it doesn't have one and it would appear it's not being fired towards the direction the turret sensors are pointed it's not going to deploy

ARENA (it would appear)............"uses a multi-function Doppler radar, which can be turned on and off by the tank commander. In conjunction with radar input, a digital computer scans an arc around the tank for threat"

So it has to be turned on and it "scans an arc around the tank" an "arc" does not suggest 360 degrees

The bottom line here is there is much we don't know because those that do know aren't revealing the strengths and weaknesses of the systems

What we do appear to "know" that in the past month if it's on and working it doesn't seem to be doing anything . Certainly the growing piles of burnt out scrap steel would suggest this but again....... it's not a "fair judgement" of a systems performance if they are not installed as SEEMS to be the case

The final bottom line is we can only simulate these systems in a limited way. The game does not differentiate between targeting systems and in the case of Shora many "modern" targeting systems do not use laser and the sytem ( that we know about ) seems to rely on that

There have been adjustments made to both the availability of these systems based on what APPEARS to be the case in 2022 and their effectiveness in detecting and defeating ATGM but it won't be perfect because it can never be perfect

[DRG]

I wonder how that deal is panning out.......
https://militaryleak.com/2020/06/28/egypt-bought-500-of-russian-t-90ms-main-battle-tank/

[Wdll]

Not entirely sure what happened with this battle, but...wow?
https://twitter.com/Arslon_Xudosi/status/1511376081407905793?s=20&t=9ZCcIsZpCURK9OqfBF1vsg

[Aeraaa]

^Well, it's heavily edited, but at I see at least 2 BTRs totalled and prob a T72 damaged. The Ukrainian tank basically ambushed the Russian convoy from close range.

I'm sure I did have an encounter just like that in one of the scenarios/quickbattles in MBT.

[DRG]

The drone footage from this war has been particularly informative. The "ID tags" was a nice touch

[DRG]

Ukrainian forces are using yellow and blue.




Just a follow up on this it may not be true in all cases but it appears from recent photos I have seen that the Ukrainian Regulars tend towards blue and the Territorial units tend towards yellow but it is not always 100% clear who's reg and who's militia though the regs seem better outfitted and I have seen blue and yellow together on the same armband

[MarkSheppard]

Seen the Stugna-P ATGM kill of a stationary hovering KA-52 yet?

Note how they put the cursor near the Ka-52, but keep it off the helo until about 3 seconds before impact, to avoid setting off laser warning sensors on the helicopter?

[DRG]

Seen the Stugna-P ATGM kill of a stationary hovering KA-52 yet?

Note how they put the cursor near the Ka-52, but keep it off the helo until about 3 seconds before impact, to avoid setting off laser warning sensors on the helicopter?



Post #110 above

Yes. I wondered about that when I saw the video. That system has a manual and a fire-and-forget mode. Fire-and-forget provides automatic control of the missile flight using a targeting laser beam that does not require manual tracking of the target.

I may be wrong but in that case, it looked like they may have been using manual mode

[Wdll]

Scary how easy it is to fool the system. Good scary in this case, but still.

[DRG]

https://www.csis.org/analysis/send-swarm


Send In the Swarm
March 24, 2022

This quick take is part of our Crisis Crossroads series, which highlights timely analysis by CSIS scholars on the evolving situation in Ukraine and its security, economic, energy, and humanitarian effects.


The recent announcement that United States will send switchblade drones to Ukraine reflects the changing character of war and the importance of swarming. Swarming involves saturating a target with multiple small strikes as opposed to one decisive blow. By expanding arms transfers to include more capable swarming systems like the Israeli loitering munitions seen in Nagorno-Karabakh as well as new U.S. Marine capabilities like the Hero-120, the West can help Kyiv break the Russian sieges currently holding Ukrainian cities hostage.

Ukraine has already adapted tactical-level swarms to slow Russia’s advance. Similar to Finnish motti tactics, dispersed ambush teams attack Russian lines of communication to compound Moscow’s logistical challenges. In multiple instances, the Ukrainian armed forces have used drones to target artillery raids against Russian-seized airbases in Ukraine, including destroying as many as 30 vehicles and helicopters in Kherson.

Expanding the range and types of loitering munitions available to Ukraine will help them build on this success. The greatest threat to Ukraine right now is the ability of Russia to siege Ukrainian cities. The closer the Russian army gets to Kyiv, the more artillery and missile barrages it can fire on urban areas, putting pressure on Ukraine’s leaders to accept Russian demands. While surface-to-air missile transfers can help stop Russian aircraft and cruise missiles, they cannot stop artillery strikes. The same goes for anti-tank guided missiles, which perform the best ambushing convoys.

While the concept of swarming is as old as horse archers from ancient history, low-cost drones and persistent surveillance networks provide new technical means to the tactic. The result is an approach called mosaic that seeks to overwhelm adversaries short of a single, decisive battle.

Applied to the current war, long-range loitering munitions provide Ukrainian forces options for swarming Russian artillery and missile batteries striking cities like Kyiv and Mariupol. Faced with the prospect of suicide drones attacking their firing positions, already stretched Russian forces would have to pull back or reduce the volume of fire. The more Russian artillery and missile units Ukraine attacks, the harder it will become for Moscow to use medieval sieges as a negotiation tactic.

Swarming offers a low-cost, low-risk way of helping Ukraine defend its sovereign territory. Combined with sending surface-to-air missiles, it makes it more difficult for Russia to keep attacking Ukrainian cities in a way that limits escalation risks and helps accelerate a negotiated settlement.

Benjamin Jensen is a senior fellow for future war, gaming, and strategy in the International Security Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, D.C.

Commentary is produced by the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), a private, tax-exempt institution focusing on international public policy issues. Its research is nonpartisan and nonproprietary. CSIS does not take specific policy positions. Accordingly, all views, positions, and conclusions expressed in this publication should be understood to be solely those of the author(s).

© 2022 by the Center for Strategic and International Studies. All rights reserved.



I added Switchblades to the Ukrainian OOB a couple weeks ago along with drones using the light helicopter unitclass and the Switchblades will also be found in the USA and British OOB under the control of elite specialist units ( Ukraine Spetsnaz, US Ranger , British RM Cdo ) The spotter drones were added to 19 OOB's

....and yes, when used together they are quite effective


https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2022/04/05/the-hunter-killer-drone-team-us-switchblades-and-pumas-join-ukraine-war/?sh=66b61c5a7e6b


UPDATE: The Pentagon has confirmed that the new batch will also include 10 Switchblade 600 models — the much larger version of the loitering munition. We looked at the Switchblade 600 when it was launched in 2020. This is a 50-pound weapon rather than a 5-pound one, with a range in excess of 50 miles. And it has a much larger warhead, described as having similar effects to a Javelin missile. In other words, it can take out the heaviest Russian tanks. Again, the 600 can be teamed with Puma drones to ensure the highest-value targets are found and hit and no Switchblade is wasted.


I have not included this larger version of the Switchblade into the OOB's.........yet ........due to its very limited availability but one could easily be simulated by using the Israeli Hafiz / Spike NLOS coupled with a spotter drone

[Wdll]

Sudden urge to watch Ender's Game.

[Wdll]

Bushmasters in Ukrainian colors.
https://www.ptisidiastima.com/australia-painted-with-ukrainian-colors-the-bushmasters/

[Wdll]

I don't know how accurate this "legion of Russians" is, but I thought to share this video.
I read about it a few more times, but I don't really have any facts about it.
It almost sounds like they are not going to fight inside Ukraine, but in Russia. I don't know.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ61bjLhhww

[troopie]

Overall sounds like the update will be ready when it's ready. I'll download it when it's done.

troopie

[DRG]

Overall sounds like the update will be ready when it's ready. I'll download it when it's done.

troopie

Check back in a couple of weeks, by then we should have a better idea of a release date. FOR SURE it won't be next week

[DRG]

For a lot of reasons expect this year to be the last update for both games. If there's another one it's because something SERIOUSLY needs fixing or we both had brain farts and forgot what a massive PITA it is to do this every year.

24 years is a long time to do anything

Also do not expect the number of scenarios in either game like in the past few years. Neither of our main scenario / campaign contributors have had a good year in any way, shape or form.

[Felix Nephthys]

For a lot of reasons expect this year to be the last update for both games. If there's another one it's because something SERIOUSLY needs fixing or we both had brain farts and forgot what a massive PITA it is to do this every year.

24 years is a long time to do anything

Also do not expect the number of scenarios in either game like in the past few years. Neither of our main scenario / campaign contributors have had a good year in any way, shape or form.

Just wanted to give a quick thank you for the hard work you guys have done to keep this game going all these years. Hope we will all still be playing this for many years to come.

[DRG]

Just wanted to give a quick thank you for the hard work you guys have done to keep this game going all these years.

Thanks


Hope we will all still be playing this for many years to come.


So do we

[DRG]

Who would have thought we'd see something like this a month ago ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE9finPXF3o

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well though this is good news for the N/NE Ukraine, it will not be for the East. Several news agencies have for instance have shown a slightly over 8-mile column of trucks and 100's (unspecified number of) of various armored vehicles.

Russia is preparing for what they should've done from the beginning, strike on a concentrated semi-broad front out of Donbas region and Crimea with the goal to encircle a large part of the Ukrainian forces that have been defending the Donbas region for the last 5-6 years. .

If the Ukraine losses here and more so doesn't extract a large portion of those troops, it will lead to potentially opening up of the central part of the country and to major/substantial Russian territorial gains.

This upcoming offensive, somewhat underway now as the video Don posted shows, will determine the fate of the country and who'll be in the "driver's seat" at the negotiating table.

Some Generals (Ours) can see the upcoming offensive as being the largest battle in that part of Europe since 1943.

Of course, they would be speaking of the Battle of Kursk (or Battle of Prokhorovka, Kursk.)
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=battle+of+kursk+1943&docid=608023943267231303&mid=33EB0E3C84FDCB67FD0233EB0E3C84FDCB67FD02&view=detail&FORM=VIRE


The big shift for Russia beyond their force deployment is that they've centralized the command authority by appointing Gen. Aleksandr V. Dvornikov who's a very experienced having served in the Second Chechen War and was Commander of Russian forces in Syria.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/apr/10/russia-installs-new-commander-ukraine-calls-discha/

Government officials also reporting here that apparently Ukraine has/or roughly has, a 10:1 advantage in Javelins to Russian tanks committed in the Ukraine area. If even at halve that number that would be significant advantage.

Slovakia (Corrected.) as was confirmed this morning, has sent all their S-300 systems to the Ukraine they should already be there sometime today or tomorrow at latest their time.

We have sent them a full Patriot Battery I'm sure of course manned by our troops.

Need to verify which S-300 they operated which could lead to significant increase to performance capabilities.

Round 1 goes to the Ukraine hands down. Round 2 could decide the game.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

The Javelins are handy because they do not require set up time like the Skif but either version of the Skif will get the job done

The game-changer on a lot of levels will be if the Russians use their artillery the way they did "in the old days" which will create a lot of collateral damage but it will make setting up ATGM kill zones problamatic

The other change that might occur is more reliance on basic infantry to clear areas of AT teams before moving armour forward. Either way, it's gonna get ugly

[DRG]

Well though this is good news for the N/NE Ukraine, it will not be for the East. Several news agencies have for instance have shown a slightly over 8-mile column of trucks and 100's (unspecified number of) of various armored vehicles.

Yep and pretty much what they reported at the beginning of March as well

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/01/huge-convoy-of-russian-vehicles-approaching-kyiv.html


Huge Russian convoy approaches Kyiv as fears of all-out assault on the city grow

That didn't pan out as planned......

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I can confirm this deal was under contract as the article indicates. What's at issue because of the Ukrainian War, what will be the "fall out" from this. As the article indicates this as well was a "power projection" move by China with this full 20 aircraft contingent arriving at the same in Serbia. CNN just reported Zelinsky to speak to the S. Korean National Assembly of the Republic of Korea, I wonder about what? They would like to send a message of their own to China. Material support to Ukraine could be it.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/china-makes-semi-secret-delivery-of-missiles-to-serbia/ar-AAW44cc?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=c002b8f9f7344632bf0ef01eacaa245f

Sweden and Finland pressing for NATO membership. Lots out there about this. What Russia didn't want to happen in Ukraine on their Eastern border will mark my words happen on its NE eastern border with Finland.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/finland-sweden-set-to-join-nato-as-soon-as-summer-the-times/ar-AAW4KHm?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5f62e27e36354e628c5448bb845effbc
https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1949v04/d62
https://www.sps.ed.ac.uk/sites/default/files/assets/pdf/Gebhard_2017_Routledge_Handbook.pdf

Those above are part of the "spider web" around the center of it of course being the Ukraine and Russia.

This mission has quietly been confirmed with a variation of "I can neither confirm or deny" or "Speak to any particular operations" so I guess we'll never know if SAS, Green Berets or SEALS are taking pictures or video. This would provide some excellent battlefield intel. On the highlighted "blue wording" click on them for further information.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/04/09/ukrainian-commandos-riding-in-speedboats-captured-a-high-tech-russian-radar-vehicle/?sh=10a7efb26710

Now this next I did click on the blue. You might remember that I was pretty adamant about my comments concerning the Russian "bird cage" over the turrets of their tanks and some APC's. I basically said they were crap and would not stop a modern tandem warhead top attack weapon. So, to make my point on that and Stugna-P multi-tasking.

YOU MUST FOLLOW DIRECTIONS TO SAVE YOU TIME FOR THE ABOVE. PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ENJOY THE REST AT YOUR LEISURE.

Scroll down to 5 APRIL AND START COUNTING...
Video #1 STUGNA-P taking a helicopter.

Video #3 2 T-72B3 just after top attack. It's FAST but in the beginning, you'll see one T-72B3 had a "bird cage" and like the rest of the tank what's left of it.

Video #12 Unidentified T-72 hit by a "pile driver" and where's the hull!?! Stay with it as he pans around the tank. Killed and buried at the sometime. I make no light of it.

Scroll down to 6 April, well you know as you just did it...
Video #2 STUGNA-P taking out a T-72 variant.

Video #3 T-72B1 "Pile Driver" Top Attack.

Video #9 T-72B3 "How about that cage" definitely traditional top attack. JAVELIN and NLAW like most other TA ATGW turret separation is a sure sign of them likely having been the cause of it.
https://twitter.com/BarracudaVol1/status/1511533247284527122

I'm just making an educated guess here and more so with 5 APR Video #12
and possibly 6 APR Video #3 I feel was done by a precision munition along the line of our EXCALIBUR 155mm munition. It is CONFIRMED that they both have and have used them. Note dates of and in the article.
https://en.defence-ua.com/industries/straight_on_target-1647.html

[DRG]

What Happens to Russian Tank After a Shot from ATGM System

https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/the_turret_flew_away_and_smashed_the_asphalt_what_ happens_to_a_russian_tank_after_a_shot_from_atgm_s ystem-2490.html

Ukrainian Stugna ATGM's Hunting on Russian TOS-1 Buratino MLRS. Detailed Video of System's Crew Work
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/ukrainian_stugna_hunting_on_russian_buratino_detai led_video_of_the_atgm_systems_crew_work-2472.html

Russian Occupiers Lost 3 TOS-1A MLRS While Running Away From Kyiv Region
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/russian_occupiers_lost_3_tos_1a_mrl_while_running_ away_from_kyiv_region-2451.html


In the case of the TOS I have other info that claims the Ukrainians have now started using the captured TOS against the Russians ( and why it is now in the Ukrainian OOB )

[DRG]

Javelin vs NLAW: Ukrainian Soldier Explains from Own Experience which of the Two is More Effective Against Russian Armored Targets

https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/javelin_vs_nlaw_ukrainian_soldier_explains_from_ow n_experience_which_of_the_two_is_more_effective_ag ainst_russian_armored_targets-2495.html

[DRG]

Someday the new additions will stop but it's not going to be today

https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/dkkb_luch_has_completed_upgrading_ukrainian_armys_ brdm_2_armored_recon_vehicles_with_its_new_atgm_we apon_stations_video-2514.html

Expect a MUCH different Ukrainian OOB than the one you have now

[Aeraaa]

Someday the new additions will stop but it's not going to be today

https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/dkkb_luch_has_completed_upgrading_ukrainian_armys_ brdm_2_armored_recon_vehicles_with_its_new_atgm_we apon_stations_video-2514.html

Expect a MUCH different Ukrainian OOB than the one you have now

The way things shape in the last years, I'd expect a different OOB for most of countries in Europe.

[DRG]

There have been new units added in other OOB's but nothing comes close to Ukraine

[DRG]

Ukrainian claims of Russian losses as of today

https://en.defence-ua.com/news/the_47th_day_of_the_war_russia_has_lost_19_500_per sonnel_725_tanks_and_154_aircrafts-2516.html

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Don,
Can confirm yours about TOS-1 as well through my sources.

I to have seen reports of units using both in a "combined arms" tactical situation. These guys (And I use this generically for both sexes as both are fighting hard.) are fighting a better tactical battle and plain "out foxing" the Russians.

I've said for years out here they are better than most-I'm leaving it at that.

Now another strand to the Ukrainian "Spyder Web" from the Polish Govt. earlier today their time.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/polish-panel-russia-behind-polish-leader-s-plane-crash/ar-AAW5uaj?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=3e7b0f8b3a5d4a828e16bc79ff6545a2

Moscow didn't like him, or his policies and I remember that crash as it made world news and there were immediate suspicions then of assassination.

And the world keeps revolving.

To think this all started for me with OPLOT-M.

Looking back, I'm sure Don is thrilled about that!?! ;) :D (Morale booster for you know who!)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

Pat there was talk about the Germans Selling 100 PzH 2000 to Ukraine

https://interfax.com.ua/news/general/822908.html

"The Bundeswehr will provide Kiev with 100 of its howitzers as soon as possible

Great..... ANOTHER unit to enter. I have a feeling some of this is going to end up chewing on my derriere

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Don,
Seen that to just wasn't sure about it.

Well, I'm going to "hang my butt out there" to by SUGGUSTING the tanks might be the LEOPARD 1A5 POSSIBALY equipped with the 120mm/L44.

The LEOPARD 1A5 is the ONLY ONE in that series designed to mount that weapon. The weapon was tested on that platform and a further development of it came with the LEOPARD 1A6 which didn't get beyond the Prototype Stage due to the LEOPARD 2 fielding in numbers that the LEOPARD 1A6 wouldn't have made practical sense due to improvements of the former and cost. The following is USA TRACOC source both listed A15/6 at the bottom
https://odin.tradoc.army.mil/mediawiki/index.php/Leopard_1A3_German_Main_Battle_Tank_(MBT) .

I might've one upped you here!?! :rolleyes:

More on this later, got get someone lunch and to the airport!!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

https://odin.tradoc.army.mil/mediawiki/index.php/Leopard_1A3_German_Main_Battle_Tank_(MBT)[/B].



A wee problem but don't worry about it. I have an overflowing plate as it is


There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, or search the related logs, but you do not have permission to create this page.

[blazejos]

If you are really interested in Smolensk Severny 10.04.2010 aerodrome Air Disaster now rather word assassination is more correct. In the light of today published materials by Smolensk commission. Here you can check this yourself and create own opinion! Here is short video and summary about this in English
https://tvpworld.com/59571619/smolensk-air-disaster-a-result-of-unlawful-interference-investigation-report

And here biggest repository with documents data university publications in English about this
https://www.smolenskcrashnews.com/

Work about Smolensk was done by commission last 6 years to found the true in case of many lies by peoples inside Poland from Polish government at that time just from the beginning in 2010 and also that main evidence wreckage of aircraft is still in Russian hands and Russians will not give them in foreseeable future (probably never).

And, yes war crimes in Ukraine put new light on that event 12 years ago and debunk a myth that Russian state was not able do this because is just a normal state with normal "politicians". That also open question about "politicians" inside Poland and extent of their collaboration during that event with Russia?
Here https://tvpworld.com/59565788/memory-of-smolensk-air-disaster-is-part-of-our-identity-jaroslaw-kaczynski

BTW. "Poisoned Fruit of Katyn Masacre" Genocides without punishment made perpetrators more brave and also people from next generations looks back and will said we can do the same. Here is opinion of Polish President that lack of "Nürenberg" style trials for crimes of Communism created this new genocides on Ukraine and we repeat our history again in circles. Video with English subtitles
https://tvpworld.com/59562999/we-must-fight-distortion-of-history-president-duda-on-katyn-crime

[zovs66]

Seems like old times...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a70ba626-b9b5-11ec-94e5-2197dead5942?shareToken=8160d4588e466a48cfa272d682 e266a9

[Wdll]

Seems like old times...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a70ba626-b9b5-11ec-94e5-2197dead5942?shareToken=8160d4588e466a48cfa272d682 e266a9


My favorite part was the last paragraph.
Basically the Ukrainians went on vacations, had gifts or whatever by the FSB and decided to not betray their country.
Hilarious.

[DRG]

Many of you will know about Russkiy Mir.

Posted for those that don't


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4WEBwsuQf0

[DRG]

Seems like old times...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a70ba626-b9b5-11ec-94e5-2197dead5942?shareToken=8160d4588e466a48cfa272d682 e266a9


More on that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F7UQUsFQgQ


and what is said at around the 3 min mark may be true..... or not but that's all part of the "game". If the other side isn't already paranoid.... no problem.... just hint at things like that

[blazejos]

Many of you will know about Russkiy Mir.

Posted for those that don't


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4WEBwsuQf0

That is true but that is only a theory :doh:
like on that paint from Tsarist times "Allegory of Russkiy Mir"
https://www.wykop.pl/cdn/c3201142/comment_JzNgIUM1IYUswTKuGiUbanC7WFosMiIY,w400.jpg

in practice Russkiy Mir is more like on this paint from USSR times:
https://www.wykop.pl/cdn/c3201142/comment_16465989946GIxRKdN7kRFb0UWtC7fhf,w400.jpg

"Prophetic" music video from 2020 by Red⭐Tide Russkiy Mir
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFKNinBkq1I



but in reality is more like that:
- Russkiy Mir for ordinary peoples in Mariupol recorded in Zaphorosia evacuation centre their stories in english video 5min
https://www.wykop.pl/link/6595057/ruski-mir-w-wymiarze-zwyklego-czlowieka/

- The villager who buried those he couldn't save from Russian occupiers english video 3min
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-afNM-jlNlQ

- Sharing space with the dead - horror outside Chernihiv English video 4:25
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-afNM-jlNlQ

- Stories of sexual violence against Ukrainian women from Russian forces
English video 5:12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgtXV9VBxEE

- How Russian soldiers brutalized a Ukrainian family (and they are probably the lucky ones :confused:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8mFjVp-ZPE

- They were shooting everybody, women and children: presbyter from Bucha
https://tvpworld.com/59601436/they-were-shooting-everybody-women-and-children-presbyter-from-bucha

[Wdll]

Seems like old times...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a70ba626-b9b5-11ec-94e5-2197dead5942?shareToken=8160d4588e466a48cfa272d682 e266a9


More on that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F7UQUsFQgQ


and what is said at around the 3 min mark may be true..... or not but that's all part of the "game". If the other side isn't already paranoid.... no problem.... just hint at things like that

Technically NATO/USA doesn't have to have a single mole. It's not that hard to reach to certain conclusions based on the movements of forces. Still obviously there are probably at least some, or not. That's the beauty of it.

[Wdll]

Many of you will know about Russkiy Mir.

Posted for those that don't


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4WEBwsuQf0


It's sad really. Obviously not the first or last country to believe in the superiority of their own nation. It shouldn't work, but obviously it does. Such a shame.

[scorpio_rocks]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efs4jk9ziaM


Is the Martlet (LMM) missile in use in Ukraine?

[DRG]

According to that report...... maybe. But it's not yet deployed in the UK

[DRG]

https://news.usni.org/2022/04/13/russian-navy-confirms-severe-damage-to-black-sea-cruiser-moskva-crew-abandoned-ship

Russian Navy Confirms Severe Damage to Black Sea Cruiser Moskva, Crew Abandoned Ship

The Russian Navy’s Black Sea flagship has suffered major damage and the crew has abandoned the ship, state media said late Tuesday in reports following Ukrainian claims of hitting the ship with a missile strike.

The Russian Defense Ministry confirmed the mishap on RTS Moskva (121), a ship in the country’s Black Sea Fleet, according to state-run outlet TASS.

The crew of the Moskva the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet was severely damaged and the crew abandoned ship, the Russian Defense Ministry told TASS.

A fire broke out on the ship, causing ammunition to detonate, according to TASS. State media did not elaborate on the cause of the fire.

Ukrainian officials claimed that shore-based anti-ship guided missiles hit Moskva which had been operating from the Black Sea Fleet’s headquarters in Sevastopol, Crimea.

[Wdll]

It looks like Ukraine is now user of the awesome RM-70 system.
https://twitter.com/BabakTaghvaee/status/1514341652990767110?s=20&t=g7tEyZ6eINkSX0BV5I8nOQ
A gift from the old buddy of Russia, the Czechs.

[DRG]

That link tells me nothing as I have not and will not join the twitterverse

most links to it usually give some detail but that doesn't so please fill in the blanks or find another link that can

The Verba already uses the same rockets as the RM-70 but FWIW the RM-70 has now been added anyway

[Wdll]

That link tells me nothing as I have not and will not join the twitterverse

most links to it usually give some detail but that doesn't so please fill in the blanks or find another link that can

The Verba already uses the same rockets as the RM-70 but FWIW the RM-70 has now been added anyway

If I see something else I will let you know.
For the time I have the news on here too
https://www.ptisidiastima.com/twenty-czech-rm-70-shipped-to-ukraine/

though it is basically about the tweet. It's a defense magazine that is quite trustworthy in the business for 40 years.
Having said that obviously some tweets don't necessarily mean much on their own. Still, thanks.

[DRG]

Yes, I found a number of other references to it


https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16697&stc=1&d=1649956663

[DRG]

In any conflict, there are always going to be myths that emerge.

But for the most part, it's not old equipment being lost......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lem3enNkbV0

[DRG]

THE BEST .. tongue in cheek....comment about the attack on the Moskva in the "Russian Foreign Ministry" style



"The warship Moskva has not sunk it has simply been reclassified as a new type of one-way submarine and is on a special underwater mission"

[Wdll]

I like this too.
Obviously it hasn't sunk yet, but still funny.

https://i.postimg.cc/KzdPkC3n/FQTpbc-NXEAUb7dr.jpg

[DRG]

Good lord this will NEVER END

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/the-german-defense-industry-is-offering-marder-ifv-and-pzh-2000-acs-to-ukraine/
The German defense industry is offering Marder IFV and PzH-2000 ACS to Ukraine

Rheinmetall, a German manufacturer of military equipment, offers Ukraine to purchase Marder infantry fighting vehicles.

BILD informs about it.

According to the journalists, the concern intends to build 35 units of equipment for the needs of the Ukrainian Armed Forces by the end of 2022.

Another German arms manufacturer, Krauss-Maffei Wegmann, is offering Ukraine an agreement to supply 100 self-propelled 155-mm PzH 2000 ACS.

Welt am Sonntag informs about this.

The offer was submitted to the German government for approval.

The first new ACS might be delivered no earlier than in 30 months. That is, the first deliveries should be expected in the second half of 2024. And the entire contract will be fulfilled in 2027.

[zovs66]

These photos of "Pro-Russian" troops don't look defeated. This in the battles of Mariupol.

https://www.reuters.com/news/picture/battle-for-mariupol-on-the-frontlines-of-idUSRTS71ET3

[Wdll]

These photos of "Pro-Russian" troops don't look defeated. This in the battles of Mariupol.

https://www.reuters.com/news/picture/battle-for-mariupol-on-the-frontlines-of-idUSRTS71ET3

All I see is barbarians.

[Wdll]

Good lord this will NEVER END

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/the-german-defense-industry-is-offering-marder-ifv-and-pzh-2000-acs-to-ukraine/
The German defense industry is offering Marder IFV and PzH-2000 ACS to Ukraine

Rheinmetall, a German manufacturer of military equipment, offers Ukraine to purchase Marder infantry fighting vehicles.

BILD informs about it.

According to the journalists, the concern intends to build 35 units of equipment for the needs of the Ukrainian Armed Forces by the end of 2022.

Another German arms manufacturer, Krauss-Maffei Wegmann, is offering Ukraine an agreement to supply 100 self-propelled 155-mm PzH 2000 ACS.

Welt am Sonntag informs about this.

The offer was submitted to the German government for approval.

The first new ACS might be delivered no earlier than in 30 months. That is, the first deliveries should be expected in the second half of 2024. And the entire contract will be fulfilled in 2027.

There is supposedly a good chance of Greece receiving 100s of Marders (among a proposal for other things like setting up a line for Leo2 in Greece, but that's another topic). I hope this offering doesn't negatively affect that.

The PZh-2000 sale is super weird though. Time will tell.

[Aeraaa]

Good lord this will NEVER END

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/the-german-defense-industry-is-offering-marder-ifv-and-pzh-2000-acs-to-ukraine/
The German defense industry is offering Marder IFV and PzH-2000 ACS to Ukraine

Rheinmetall, a German manufacturer of military equipment, offers Ukraine to purchase Marder infantry fighting vehicles.

BILD informs about it.

According to the journalists, the concern intends to build 35 units of equipment for the needs of the Ukrainian Armed Forces by the end of 2022.

Another German arms manufacturer, Krauss-Maffei Wegmann, is offering Ukraine an agreement to supply 100 self-propelled 155-mm PzH 2000 ACS.

Welt am Sonntag informs about this.

The offer was submitted to the German government for approval.

The first new ACS might be delivered no earlier than in 30 months. That is, the first deliveries should be expected in the second half of 2024. And the entire contract will be fulfilled in 2027.

There is supposedly a good chance of Greece receiving 100s of Marders (among a proposal for other things like setting up a line for Leo2 in Greece, but that's another topic). I hope this offering doesn't negatively affect that.

The PZh-2000 sale is super weird though. Time will tell.

I kept hearing about a Marder sale since I was in high school. It starts to become a meme by now. :(

[Wdll]

Good lord this will NEVER END

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/the-german-defense-industry-is-offering-marder-ifv-and-pzh-2000-acs-to-ukraine/
The German defense industry is offering Marder IFV and PzH-2000 ACS to Ukraine

Rheinmetall, a German manufacturer of military equipment, offers Ukraine to purchase Marder infantry fighting vehicles.

BILD informs about it.

According to the journalists, the concern intends to build 35 units of equipment for the needs of the Ukrainian Armed Forces by the end of 2022.

Another German arms manufacturer, Krauss-Maffei Wegmann, is offering Ukraine an agreement to supply 100 self-propelled 155-mm PzH 2000 ACS.

Welt am Sonntag informs about this.

The offer was submitted to the German government for approval.

The first new ACS might be delivered no earlier than in 30 months. That is, the first deliveries should be expected in the second half of 2024. And the entire contract will be fulfilled in 2027.

There is supposedly a good chance of Greece receiving 100s of Marders (among a proposal for other things like setting up a line for Leo2 in Greece, but that's another topic). I hope this offering doesn't negatively affect that.

The PZh-2000 sale is super weird though. Time will tell.

I kept hearing about a Marder sale since I was in high school. It starts to become a meme by now. :(

We were supposed to get them 15-20 years ago, but eventually it didn't go ahead as people in power dissed them as too old. Hilarious if you think about it since we still have M113. A bit later we were supposed to go ahead with the BMP-3, which (thankfully?) didn't go ahead either. (funnily enough the unit is available in the Greek OOB here, same as the SU-35 I think, they were added years ago when it looked like there was a good potential for them).
The irony is there is a better chance we get the Marders now than then. That's life (and stupidity).
Time will tell.

[DRG]

...... A bit later we were supposed to go ahead with the BMP-3, which (thankfully?) didn't go ahead either. (funnily enough the unit is available in the Greek OOB here, same as the SU-35 I think, they were added years ago when it looked like there was a good potential for them).

Not now...........

[Wdll]

...... A bit later we were supposed to go ahead with the BMP-3, which (thankfully?) didn't go ahead either. (funnily enough the unit is available in the Greek OOB here, same as the SU-35 I think, they were added years ago when it looked like there was a good potential for them).

Not now...........


Me and my big mouth! :p


I kid, I kid, thank you. I wasn't using them for years now. Though when I used to, they were VERY helpful (the BMP-3). :D

[DRG]

I like this too.
Obviously it hasn't sunk yet, but still funny.

It is now on it's "special underwater mission"........

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61114843



A Russian warship that was damaged by an explosion on Wednesday has sunk, Russia's defence ministry has said.

[blazejos]

Well now Iran is sending weapons system to Russia through Caspian sea

https://www.infobae.com/en/2022/04/13/russia-is-receiving-weapons-from-iran-and-egypt-will-deliver-fighter-bombers-to-ukraine/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/12/russia-using-weapons-smuggled-by-iran-from-iraq-against-ukraine

So what is delivered

- Bavar-373 SAM's from Iranian arsenals

- Brazilian Astros II in version manufactured locally in Iraq Sajil-60 with shorter range rockets than Brazilian version.

- except that smaller weapons AT rockets and various RPG's


In case of Cruiser "Moskva"

I worth to see reaction on "Russia 1" TV channel with English subtitles.
one of commentators said: end this "Special Operation" now we have WW3!
https://tvpworld.com/59651348/russian-tv-commentators-furious-over-moskva-sinking

In case of genocides on Ukrainians.This message was prepared to Russian solders with ancient Ukrainian Godess of Winter Mara
https://twitter.com/NotAbouThatBase/status/1514382681219518464

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQRHXrFWUAQO8vd?format=jpg&name=small

[zovs66]

I dont have a link but a Ukrainian war gamer I know posted this from a Russian source.


Moscow's official reaction to the loss of the Moskva has surfaced.

▪️The Russian Defense Ministry says the Navy's exercise included a planned reclassification of the Moskva cruiser as a submarine.

������ "In the course of re-qualification of the cruiser into a submarine, a planned submergence was carried out in accordance with the decision of the General Staff. In order to maintain negative buoyancy, the ship took an upright position. Fakes about the fire are spread by sailors who mistook the smoke from barbecue roasting on the ship for fire," Igor Konashenkov said during the briefing.

[DRG]

In case of Cruiser "Moskva"

I worth to see reaction on "Russia 1" TV channel with English subtitles.
one of commentators said: end this "Special Operation" now we have WW3!
https://tvpworld.com/59651348/russian-tv-commentators-furious-over-moskva-sinking

In case of genocides on Ukrainians.This message was prepared to Russian solders with ancient Ukrainian Godess of Winter Mara
https://twitter.com/NotAbouThatBase/status/1514382681219518464

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQRHXrFWUAQO8vd?format=jpg&name=small


There is something weird here, something that does not add up.... PERHAPS this is a translation issue..... BUT


destroying Ukraine's railways and making it impossible for any world leaders to visit in the future

SERIOUSLY ????

What century do these people think it is ??


And this, if true just made this all infinitely worse


the leading notion of Putin's invasion was to erase the idea of being Ukrainian. "The idea has been poisoning the lives of Slavic people for 100 years," he said, adding that "before we start eradicating them and before they start to realise that they have to get educated… First, they have to be convincingly defeated."


AND

https://twitter.com/NotAbouThatBase/status/1514382681219518464


Yeah...... it was nasty....... it's going to get worse, a lot worse

[DRG]

I'm not and never will be signed up for "twitter" so these links only show one or two items before I am blocked but I did see what looked like the Moskva sinking and I managed to grab a screenshot

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16700&stc=1&d=1650031085

Someone was being cheeky with photoshop

[DRG]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/guns-bomb-shelters-and-anti-radiation-meds-more-people-in-finland-are-preparing-for-war-with-russia/ar-AAWahxQ

Guns, bomb shelters and anti-radiation meds: More people in Finland are preparing for war with Russia

"For the first time in Finland's history, a majority of Finns are in favor of joining the North Atlantic Treaty Organization"

[Karagin]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/guns-bomb-shelters-and-anti-radiation-meds-more-people-in-finland-are-preparing-for-war-with-russia/ar-AAWahxQ

Guns, bomb shelters and anti-radiation meds: More people in Finland are preparing for war with Russia

"For the first time in Finland's history, a majority of Finns are in favor of joining the North Atlantic Treaty Organization"




As are many Swedes...

[DRG]

https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/2998981/howitzers-helicopters-humvees-headed-to-ukraine/


the array of equipment that will be sent to Ukraine as part of the new drawdown package is broad. It includes 18 155 mm Howitzers, along with 40,000 artillery rounds. Also included are the AN/TPQ-36 counterartillery and AN/MPQ-64 Sentinel air surveillance radar systems.

To move Ukrainian troops around the battlefield, the package includes 100 armored Humvee vehicles, 200 M113 Armored Personnel Carriers, and 11 Mi-17 helicopters. The helicopters will augment the five Mi-17 helicopters sent to Ukraine earlier this year.




Everyone needs to understand that this upgrade has been delayed due to what's being going on in RL and no matter where we finally draw the line and say "that's it for now" within hours something will change.

I have been unable to contact Shrapnel and that is also delaying the release but we really ( really-really ) hope to have this posted by the beginning of the last week of April which is exactly a month later than we wanted

[DRG]

...and I just found a bug so that may or may not influence everything written above.

:banghead:banghead:banghead

EDIT

ANDY SOLVED IT SO THAT'S ONE LESS ISSUE

[DRG]

.........how's that allegedly Chinese curse go......."may you live in interesting times"?

https://nationalpost.com/news/ukraine-is-scanning-faces-of-dead-russians-then-contacting-the-mothers


in part


The Ukrainians champion the use of face-scanning software from the U.S. tech firm Clearview AI as a brutal but effective way to stir up dissent inside Russia, discourage other fighters and hasten an end to a devastating war.

But some military and technology analysts worry that the strategy could backfire, inflaming anger over a shock campaign directed at mothers who may be thousands of miles from the drivers of the Kremlin’s war machine.


and that could very well be Yes on both parts and could possibly turn something already nasty into something considerably more so as if the discoveries made after the withdrawals wasn't enough

[Wdll]

.........how's that allegedly Chinese curse go......."may you live in interesting times"?

https://nationalpost.com/news/ukraine-is-scanning-faces-of-dead-russians-then-contacting-the-mothers


in part


The Ukrainians champion the use of face-scanning software from the U.S. tech firm Clearview AI as a brutal but effective way to stir up dissent inside Russia, discourage other fighters and hasten an end to a devastating war.

But some military and technology analysts worry that the strategy could backfire, inflaming anger over a shock campaign directed at mothers who may be thousands of miles from the drivers of the Kremlin’s war machine.


and that could very well be Yes on both parts and could possibly turn something already nasty into something considerably more so as if the discoveries made after the withdrawals wasn't enough

Population which turns against a war is some times quite effective. Americans have experience with this during the cold war.

All I can think of is if someone took out Putler how many more lives would be saved.

[DRG]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saEpkcVi1d4&t=33s

Pink Floyd - Hey Hey Rise Up the official video for 'Hey Hey Rise Up', Pink Floyd’s new Ukraine fundraiser feat Andriy Khlyvnyuk of Boombox

I will never tire of hearing David Gilmour play the guitar


EDIT a slightly different verion
https://youtu.be/2VvwH4vqUiI

[DRG]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/02/11/russian-military-drones-ukraine/

Published February 11, 2022

Russian drones shot down over Ukraine were full of Western parts.

In early 2017, Ukrainian forces battling Russia-backed separatists shot down a drone conducting surveillance over the eastern flank of Ukraine.

The unmanned aircraft, nearly six feet long with a cone-shaped nose and a shiny gray body, had all the external characteristics of a Russian military drone. When researchers cracked it open, however, they found electronic components manufactured by a half-dozen Western companies.

The engine came from a German company that supplies model-airplane hobbyists. Computer chips for navigation and wireless communication were made by U.S. suppliers. A British company provided a motion-sensing chip. Other parts came from Switzerland and South Korea.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

As retired Submariner with 20 yrs. experience, I feel it is my duty to point out two simple facts...
1. Dons picture of the reclassed new MOSKVA Submarine Class for one, to have the bow located in what would normally be the stern is just not a good idea, I'd be jumping off the "boat" as well!?!

That picture shows how a submarine would look like surfacing on a "low pressure blow" bow first. But the bow I guess is the stern, so they put the engine and screws in the front!?! :doh: Mr. Putin you need to send your designers to either Siberia or the Ukrainian Front!!

Second obviously the crew was rushed through Submarine School as they somehow forgot to check the box for ensuring all the hatches were secured prior to the dive IAW the Rig for Dive Bill Checklist!!! :eek: Yes we had those and more. :cool:

They failed in the basic axiom of "having ONE more surfacing then dives. The proper way as I experienced on the USS NEBRASKA SSBN-739(G) which was of my last boat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vF8JKkRo5fk

Also, they miserably failed in damage control. What every submariner trains for starting in Sub School Groton, Ct. and while on any boat you serve on there after.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ycDINNZHBw
I was 23 when I joined the Navy and went there.

If I were a Russian Submariner serving on one of the other two surviving MOSKVA Class Submarines, I'd request transfer to the Ukrainian Front, maybe better Siberia instead.

I need to go to work, have a good day.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

Pat.....it was the John Deere tractor towing it that was the most relevant bit of humour

[lansoar]

Hi,

How much does the Survivability value play into things?
with the M1 design philosophy, it appeared that crew survival was at the forefront for Western designs from the 80s onward thus it was assumed to a degree that partial penetrations would occur on a semi frequent basis. The blow out panels for ammo stowage make for a strong example.

FYI, i just want to say, i agree with comments that argue against snap judgements. No system stands alone and there are many variables. Its also kind of weird too....to discuss such things while the conflict in question is ongoing....with real lives on the line. We should be respectful of that too. We talk wargaming. For those involved in the conflict its irrelevant....you live or you die.

That said. I appreciate the effort put into WinSPMBT and WinSPWW2. Best wargame ever.

[Mobhack]

Survivability relates to crew survival on vehicle being killed. So the crew might make it out some more if survivabilty is higher. Not much effect in a stand alone battle or scenario, but it gains importance in a campaign, provided other battlefield effects do not kill the bailed crew of course.

The other main factor in crew bailout survivability is of course experience - green crews tend to die where experts might get some survivors.

[Mobhack]

The chieftain with yet another good piece as a riposte to the youtube "experts" claiming the passing of the MBT (yet again);

"No the tank is not dead"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI7T650RTT8

[Aeraaa]

Yeah, there are a lot of "the tank's not dead" videos is YT lately, mainly as a response to any random Joe claiming the opposite. The main problem with people that think that the tank's dead is they dont remember/know that we actually know the alternative and it involves PBI into a frantic race to the parapet...which became even more difficult than 1916 since artillery has become faster and more accurate.

[zovs66]

There will be no T-14s, interesting article and that is the conclusion from the Bulgarian Military.

https://bulgarianmilitary.com/amp/2022/04/16/on-the-brink-russia-doesnt-currently-produce-t-90-and-t-14-tanks/?fbclid=IwAR0zrPeZ3jriBFqYFWOS-OoFnJqrSsKhexEyWWzDcitxdMKNtsHsm46JHe8

[DRG]

Whatever you see in the OOB's you have is now changed in the master set that IS STILL EVOLVING. The T14 and T15 may indeed never actually see the light of day ( like all the "future weapons systems" a lot of eager beavers insisted should be in the US OOB 20 years ago that all had to be pulled out after they were all cancelled one by one )

SO.The T14 and T15 now have a nominal start date of 6/124 which is GOOD ENOUGH..... anyone unhappy with that can learn to use MOBHack

[DRG]

Anyone interested can go digging for info on the Kurganets 25....... I'm too busy ATM but for now it has the same 6/124 start date as all the other Russian Wunderwaffen


FOR EVERYONES INFORMATION

The T14. T15, Kurganets 25 and the Bumerang IFV have ALL had their start dates pushed into the future. Right now all have 6/124 start dates which differ considerably with what you will see in the OOB's you have

[DRG]

Hi,

How much does the Survivability value play into things?


This is a question that has been asked many times and I will expand on what Andy wrote because I recall walking this path many, many times

Survivability in the game is NOT just about crew survival. That is only the final part.

The Survivability rating relates mainly to what happens after a penetrating hit. The higher the rating the higher the chance the vehicle will take damage rather than being destroyed and that is what those *** you may see when a hit is made but the vehicle continues to function and those *** can cause crew casualties but still the tank can function though it *may* have weapons systems damaged. I am sure if anyone has played the game enough they will have seen their tank take a hit and lose the function of it's main gun.

That is the PRIMARY function of Survivability... the secondary function is related to IF the tank is penetrated and IF it is functionally destroyed what is the chance some or all of the crew might survive.

Anyone who plays campaigns knows that's important. For anyone who only plays single battles it's far less a "concern" but the survival rating affects the vehicle first then the crew

So it's NOT just about "does the crew survive".. it's about how well the tank can cope with penetration and in the cascade of code that is initiated by that event the last calculation is how many crew survive and the higher the survival number the better the chance the tank and the crew survive

It's all explained in the game guide



Survivability


Applies to vehicles only. This number, if greater than zero, indicates both how well the vehicle will survive a penetrating hit but also how likely the crew is to survive and successfully bail out, or bail with less crew killed, when the vehicle is penetrated and destroyed. Larger is better with the maximum number being 6 in winSPWW2 and 7 in winSPMBT where MRAP vehicles are modelled. There is no effect on units that do not have bailing crew (squads, aircraft etc.) but will affect things like bunkers that are crewed

[Aeraaa]

Probably it is too late to ask for something like this but...what about splitting the cost of a tank and the surviving crew in all battles*? This gives an incentive to the player that lost the vehicle but kept the crew to try to save their lives instead of using them as bullet magnets/free scouts.

*say, a 300 cost tank is knocked out but the crew survives. Then, the tank's cost is actually 150, while the crew gets 150 cost value at the same time.

[DRG]

Probably it is too late to ask for something like this but..

Not even if I thought it was a good idea.......There will be NO further code changes for this next release

[DRG]

I have started the slow process of building both games update installers so it would take an extraordinary RL event to cause me to interrupt that...... A regiment of T14 Armatas crossing the border into Ukraine would qualify but nothing short of that.

[Wdll]

There will be no T-14s, interesting article and that is the conclusion from the Bulgarian Military.

https://bulgarianmilitary.com/amp/2022/04/16/on-the-brink-russia-doesnt-currently-produce-t-90-and-t-14-tanks/?fbclid=IwAR0zrPeZ3jriBFqYFWOS-OoFnJqrSsKhexEyWWzDcitxdMKNtsHsm46JHe8

I'm probably in the minority on this one, but I always thought the T-14 as a BS project. It never felt real, more like a model, a plastic toy for something which doesn't exist.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

You would think you almost read my mind, I think what you referred to about the USA OOB was our shared ABRAMS NIGHTMARE (Along with a lot of legacy equipment from before Andy and Don took over the game as well., and for what's worth in hindsight for me at least, we are better for it, however I certainly wouldn't want to repeat it.

Wars are never fully included in military budgets they cover costs such as retirements and health care which ALMOST ACCOUNTS FOR AROUND 25 -30% OF OUR DEFENSE BUDGET alone and my pay to :D.
https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/11-14-12-MilitaryComp_0.pdf
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF11856/1

Some people wish to complain about some NATO countries percent of GDP going to Defense spending if you look at the bottom graph and for now, understand that the U.S. has the largest economy in the world, dollar wise yes by far we spend the most.

But by GDP which is the international standard for determine the "economic power" for a country, most NATO countries aren't really that far off the mark from us by percentage.
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/military-spending-defense-budget

So now Russia has a war, its economy has been severely reduced by sanctions which by about two weeks ago have really started to take hold with more applied since.

So going back to the bottom chart right side from 1960-2019 look at our %GDP for defense and take into account the Cold War (through 1998.), Vietnam, Iraqi & Afghanistan Wars and smaller ops that caused a "blip on the radar" such as Grenada and Panama.

And also recognize, we didn't have any sanctions on us.

So yes, I strongly concur with the "push back" on that Russian equipment they've all suffered from cost over runs (And we know there's no corruption over there.), ongoing technical difficulties etc. etc. This almost makes me to go back and find out how long ago I posted about the "BOOMERANG" that actually was cancelled at least once.

Modern warfare is more expensive now than at any time in our history (Manhattan Project aside based on today's dollars.)

Projects suffer and those projects definitely have.

And finally, because I know someone will say something, this isn't about picking on Russia and it will obviously show you haven't really read some of my stuff, which is perfectly fine, but I'll leave with just one USA project (Don don't get upset-just making a point!) the F-35A/C and finally from my favorite other two countries Turkey ALTAY & India ARGUN Mk II just for good measure.

For those that celebrate it Happy Easter!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Karagin]

No different really from all the wonderful toys we keep trying to get and sink billions and find out once field they are indeed garbage. Maybe we need to stop painting the other countries as ten-foot-tall giants and remember they have just as many if not more issues than we do and they might not be up there inability. Then again thinking like that is dangerous to the MIC and their lobbyist.

Also in mind, the majority of equipment will always perform differently once in the hand of the soldiers than it does on the test range where things are under full control of those conducting the testing.

Russia has its wonderful toys, if they work then we adjust, if they fail we laugh, just like they do when we (the US or the West) are the ones having the issues. As for the T-14s and others, having them and having them in quantity are two different things.

There is an old sci-fi story, about how this guy is locked in a jail cell with this other guy and he is confessing to the tribunal about how his side lost the war, long story short it was because they got rid of weapons that worked because the geniuses in MIC were always pushing new and better and amazing weapons, and when war came, well these amazing wonderful and better weapons didn't work as well as the older tried and tested system. The story ends with the guy begging to be shot or put in a labor workforce anything but being locked up with the chief MIC genius.

[lansoar]

There will be no T-14s, interesting article and that is the conclusion from the Bulgarian Military.

https://bulgarianmilitary.com/amp/2022/04/16/on-the-brink-russia-doesnt-currently-produce-t-90-and-t-14-tanks/?fbclid=IwAR0zrPeZ3jriBFqYFWOS-OoFnJqrSsKhexEyWWzDcitxdMKNtsHsm46JHe8

I'm probably in the minority on this one, but I always thought the T-14 as a BS project. It never felt real, more like a model, a plastic toy for something which doesn't exist.

How so? I understand from an economic viewpoint that there there may be a lack of means to mass produce the vehicle. From a technical standpoint, T-14 appears on paper to be formidable while also promoting crew survivability via an evolved auto-loader mentality. (aka, now the entire turret is unmanned, saving manpower needs). [insert autoloader meme here... :). ]

The modular concept I found intriguing, esp the IFV variant though whether that is economically viable was a first counter-thought. Obviously if they can't produce enough MBT versions, thats a problem.

[Wdll]

There will be no T-14s, interesting article and that is the conclusion from the Bulgarian Military.

https://bulgarianmilitary.com/amp/2022/04/16/on-the-brink-russia-doesnt-currently-produce-t-90-and-t-14-tanks/?fbclid=IwAR0zrPeZ3jriBFqYFWOS-OoFnJqrSsKhexEyWWzDcitxdMKNtsHsm46JHe8

I'm probably in the minority on this one, but I always thought the T-14 as a BS project. It never felt real, more like a model, a plastic toy for something which doesn't exist.

How so? I understand from an economic viewpoint that there there may be a lack of means to mass produce the vehicle. From a technical standpoint, T-14 appears on paper to be formidable while also promoting crew survivability via an evolved auto-loader mentality. (aka, now the entire turret is unmanned, saving manpower needs). [insert autoloader meme here... :). ]

The modular concept I found intriguing, esp the IFV variant though whether that is economically viable was a first counter-thought. Obviously if they can't produce enough MBT versions, thats a problem.


How so? They were supposed to have 100s or even thousands (I don't remember) by early 2020s. That was almost a decade ago and before the current war and everything that came with it. Do they have even 100? I seriously doubt they have even double digit tanks of this type.
I was supposed to be married with kids and a well paid job by the time I hit 30. 50% later and I am single, no kids, no job and ready to be homeless. Dreams and plans are fun, but when life hits you or you make bad choices, the results speak of themselves.
Where are the "armata"? Nowhere. And it's not like they are building them as we speak. Before current economic sunctions.
I have no doubt it will be used as an excuse, by some, but I seriously doubt we would have T-14 tanks in the next 10 years. Talking about numbers, not prototypes.

Second and far less important, It looks fake. I am talking about pure looks. It looks like something it was designed in haste to protect their jobs if not their lives. Then tried to cover the lie and failed.
Yes hypothetically it's an interesting tank. Realistically it's at best a project many years away from a real product.
IMO of course.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

No. Serial production towards that was supposed to happen this year, but it hasn't even begun (T-14). Let me see if I can still "paste" the article I just put in the MBT Thread ...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-ukraine-war-sanctions-cripple-russias-tank-production-gur/ar-AAWiwy4?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnbfcL

Never should've detoured to here, just should've kept going!! :doh:

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

The one thing from the very beginning that struck me as unusual regarding the T-14 was its size which was a radical departure from accepted Russian design and primarily not just the length but it's height

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d1/7c/ba/d17cba13c95e1a0fc5b333a6985ab8e4.jpg

https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2020-06/1592894289_138.jpg


It's why I always thought it would be intended to be used more in an overwatch/support capacity for the T-90s rather than something meant to lead the way. It would be a hard target to miss

While seaching for the images above I found this and could not resist

https://ih0.redbubble.net/image.522142134.6839/flat,1000x1000,075,f.jpg


add 2022 Ukraine to that

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Apparently, it has begun. CNN and Ukrainian officials have reported just a short time ago, that the Battle for Donbas has started.

Apparently, Russia has moved 10 Battalions into the area.

If true, so it begins.

Putin has publicly declared he wants a resolution by 9 May in time for "Victory Day" celebrations.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Aeraaa]

Apparently, it has begun. CNN and Ukrainian officials have reported just a short time ago, that the Battle for Donbas has started.

Apparently, Russia has moved 10 Battalions into the area.

If true, so it begins.

Putin has publicly declared he wants a resolution by 9 May in time for "Victory Day" celebrations.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Dunno why, but I got reminded of Operation Primavera (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_spring_offensive). The Ukrainians will be lucky if they have their own hill 731 by the end of this.

[zovs66]

Looks like Pat is right.

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-april-18

[Wdll]

I wish I could help them.
I don't anyone to die on either side, but at the same time I hope for the Russians to leave their remains there as they fail to gain anything.

It's too bad the Ukrainians don't have the forces to attack towards the south now that the Russians are focused to Donbas.

[Karagin]

https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_april_2022_global_security_army_indus try/norway_provides_mistral_manpads_surface-to-air_defense_missile_systems_to_ukraine.html

Seems even Norway is jumping in to help out...

[DRG]

Yes, I added those this morning before shutting down new items

[Wdll]

Slovakian T72 with ERA in Ukraine. Video.
https://twitter.com/zloneversleep/status/1517840729426509824?s=20&t=J7LGbYMO09VJSd7Bsqg_TA

[Aeraaa]

An interesting read:

https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/special-resources/operation-z-death-throes-imperial-delusion

Click on the Download PDF to read the report.

[Karagin]

Not saying I believe anything this guy has posted or even claims, but now according to his reports we, the US, have given the Ukrainians M270 MRLS along with all the other stuff.

https://medium.com/@x_TomCooper_x/ukraine-war-29-30-april-2022-885784cdc601

[Karagin]

Quick question, are the NATO supplied armor and such, are they being sent with NATO secondary weapons like the CMGs and such or not? Looking at the logistical nightmare part of sending in things that they don't have a lot of ammo for.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Using the M113A3 for the first question, it is unclear whether or not they're getting the mated MG 12.7mm from us.

Italy has already sent them the M2 Browning 12.7mm and it's in the field and has been for about two weeks now with some not working properly (Now fixed from poor PMS by Italy.), however Italy did supply them with ammo.

To the second in the area of Armor and Artillery the donating countries have sent them out with ammo. Using the U.S. by way of example and the following is also now confirmed, when we shipped the first set of M777 155mm artillery they went with 180,000+ rounds of ammo.

So yes, for ammo being supplied from rifles to artillery shells.

It should be noted the Ukraine has been handed over 80% of the M777 units shipped from the U.S. as of four days ago.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-28/155mm-howitzers-ukraine-military-gets-boost-from-old-fashioned-artillery
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_may_2022_global_security_army_industr y/us_would_have_already_handed_over_80_of_m777_155mm _howitzers_to_ukraine.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

A couple of videos of interest

The first one is from an Estonian.... there is something hinky at 2:50 that make it look fake or at least altered but it also suggest Russian small unit tactics are not the best and that there are actions being take in Russia.... fires in places there should not be

Drone video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ4HxpQQ3Sg

Fire map

https://firms.modaps.eosdis.nasa.gov/map/#d:today;@45.6,51.9,6z

The other suggests HIMARS have been sent to Ukraine.... I will wait for confirmation on that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzAI2lIRvjg

( this may be it.........https://avia-pro.net/news/na-ukrainu-dostavleny-amerikanskie-otrk-m142-himars-analogichnye-po-dalnosti-rossiyskim )

This one suggests a Kessel in the making near Izyum that would POTENTIALLY cut off supplies to 22,000 Russian troops
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg_K59w07Ec

[blazejos]

Interesting story about Holocaust survivor from Mariupol and how she compare this siege to famous siege of Leningrad which she also experience when was younger.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rSdoXxfmdY

[webego]

Interesting stories about how Ukrainian Nazis killed civilians in Mariupol.
https://youtu.be/23EZ5lJEu2A

[DRG]

Interesting stories about how Ukrainian Nazis killed civilians in Mariupol.
https://youtu.be/23EZ5lJEu2A

Interesting only if you want to believe it. It's the narrative the Russians have been using to justify their invasion from the start. That does not make it true but the entire situation from the start has been "complicated"

[webego]

Interesting only if you want to believe it. It's the narrative the Russians have been using to justify their invasion from the start. That does not make it true but the entire situation from the start has been "complicated"

You can, of course, philosophize )) Everyone decides for himself what to believe. That doesn't make this video a lie. And the truth is always the same.

[blazejos]

If we talk about which true is an real one and which not now about war in Ukraine I d'like to post here polish song from early 1995 written around 30 years ago when we all believed that better World is our future!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg1gfXVRqRA

We were all wrong and that is why :( written by Leszek Czajkowski

[webego]

interesting song.
Plus, the truth can be uncomfortable:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDG_hWlVda4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGdUtUefjCA

For example:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-un-nazi-glorification-resolution-vote-against-free-speech-far-right-white-supremacist-neo-alt-a8066761.html
https://www.sydneycriminallawyers.com.au/blog/us-votes-against-un-adopted-anti-nazi-resolution-while-australia-abstains/

Here is another interesting video about the old lady:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfeflkpcOi4

[DRG]

Your stay here is unlikely to last much longer but the Azov Batallion is a very tiny unit maybe 900 strong before the Russian invasion and the lefties have been pitching a fit about them for half a decade which is what you dug up. But to a good 21st-century leftist ANYONE even moderately conservative is viewed as a potential "Fascist / nazi"

900 in a population of 41.46 Million does not justify the invasion and flattening of cities but the Russian propagandist ( and apologists.......) are spinning their own war crimes as the work of Azov which does not explain Bucha and Irpin as Azov is nowhere near those places.......and as has been mentioned time and time again. Volodymyr Zelenskyy is Jewish

Yet Putin and his cronies are behaving exactly like authoritarian Fascists and "the truth can be uncomfortable" and that IS the truth.

https://theconversation.com/yes-putin-and-russia-are-fascist-a-political-scientist-shows-how-they-meet-the-textbook-definition-179063

https://voxukraine.org/en/rashism-or-why-russians-are-the-new-nazi/

and

https://www.cidob.org/en/publications/publication_series/notes_internacionals/n1_128_russia_for_russians/russia_for_russians


a pivotal aspect of Russian identity is that xenophobia, racial hatred and ultra/far right nationalism have by far outgrown the level of street radicals and in one form or another have penetrated various layers of Russian multiethnic and multicultural society. Currently the number of nationalist organizations actively operating in the Russian Federation may have reached 53: 22 of them being ultranationalist and 8 completely prohibited. In addition, according to numerous estimates, half of the world far right radicals currently reside on the territory of the Russian Federation

[Aeraaa]

Geez, can we skip some of the insane amounts of propaganda when we talk about the war in Ukraine? It's bad enough already.

And my post is aimed at the brand new member, just to clarify.

[DRG]

As reported in China Times along with many others ( you will need to turn translation on )
https://www-chinatimes-com.translate.goog/realtimenews/20220508002901-260408?_x_tr_sl=zh-TW&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc&chdtv



Just on the eve of Russia's Victory Day on May 9, they lost their 39th colonel in the Ukrainian war by the name of Fezul Bichikaev, who is said to be near Kharkiv During an intelligence mission, he died in a fierce gun battle.

Russian media reported Bichkayov's death, saying he, 36, was one of the youngest officers of the lieutenant colonel rank to die on a covert intelligence mission.

According to Russian media, the father of three was a hero whose reconnaissance team was spotted by the Ukrainian army and the lieutenant colonel fired back in order to cover the rest of the team, "after a bullet pierced his artery, the radio reported The commander was injured, but he said 'it's just a small injury' despite the pain, and the mission continues!"

"The self-sacrifice and heroism shown by this officer saved the lives of many Russian servicemen, fighting the enemy and sabotaging the organization to complete the combat mission."

He is the commander of the self-propelled artillery regiment of Russia's 127th Motorized Infantry Division, the report said.

Lieutenant Colonel Fezul Bichikaev from Vladikavkaz was the deputy commander of a regiment in Yekaterinburg, possibly the 288th MRR

If Lieutenant Colonels are having to go personally with reconnaissance teams and are getting killed handling weapons they have BIG problems


"The black knights always triumph"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UijhbHvxWrA

[DRG]

‘Key to white survival’: how Putin has morphed into a far-right saviour
The Russian president’s ‘strong man’ image and disdain for liberals has turned him into a hero for white nationalists

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/05/putin-ukraine-invasion-white-nationalists-far-right

The antisemitism animating Putin’s claim to ‘denazify’ Ukraine

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/25/vladimir-putin-ukraine-attack-antisemitism-denazify

Putin’s fascists: the Russian state’s long history of cultivating homegrown neo-Nazis
Published: March 21, 2022 3.05pm EDT

https://theconversation.com/putins-fascists-the-russian-states-long-history-of-cultivating-homegrown-neo-nazis-178535

[webego]

Your stay here is unlikely to last much longer but the Azov Batallion is a very tiny unit maybe 900 strong before the Russian invasion and the lefties have been pitching a fit about them for half a decade which is what you dug up. But to a good 21st-century leftist ANYONE even moderately conservative is viewed as a potential "Fascist / nazi"

900 in a population of 41.46 Million does not justify the invasion and flattening of cities but the Russian propagandist ( and apologists.......) are spinning their own war crimes as the work of Azov which does not explain Bucha and Irpin as Azov is nowhere near those places.......and as has been mentioned time and time again. Volodymyr Zelenskyy is Jewish

Yet Putin and his cronies are behaving exactly like authoritarian Fascists and "the truth can be uncomfortable" and that IS the truth.

https://theconversation.com/yes-putin-and-russia-are-fascist-a-political-scientist-shows-how-they-meet-the-textbook-definition-179063

https://voxukraine.org/en/rashism-or-why-russians-are-the-new-nazi/

and

https://www.cidob.org/en/publications/publication_series/notes_internacionals/n1_128_russia_for_russians/russia_for_russians


a pivotal aspect of Russian identity is that xenophobia, racial hatred and ultra/far right nationalism have by far outgrown the level of street radicals and in one form or another have penetrated various layers of Russian multiethnic and multicultural society. Currently the number of nationalist organizations actively operating in the Russian Federation may have reached 53: 22 of them being ultranationalist and 8 completely prohibited. In addition, according to numerous estimates, half of the world far right radicals currently reside on the territory of the Russian Federation

Why won't my stay here last long? )) Are you threatening me with a ban? You don't like my opinion? I was previously registered here (lost access to my account) - me KraMax (group Steel Panthers Russia) - remember me?

My opinion is different from yours. Isn't that what democracy is fighting for, so that all opinions are heard and everyone can speak out?
You and not only you say that this is propaganda. It turns out that any individual opinion that differs from yours is propaganda?

The size of the Azov battalion is conditional. The Azov Battalion is officially part of the Ukrainian Armed Forces. Since 2014, this battalion and not only it has been shelling the Donbass and killing the civilian (and russians people too) population of these regions.

Zelensky Jewish. Obviously the Nazis are stronger and politics is a dirty business. Is Israel helping him a lot? I wonder why?

There were hopes for the "Minsk agreements" signed by Ukraine in 2015. Ukraine promised to fulfill these agreements for 8 years.

I carefully read your links. Beautifully written. Some authors are Ukrainians, but it doesn't matter. With these links you are trying to explain to me that Russia is a fascist (authoritarian, totalitarian ...) state and put it between the state and Putin. This is your point of view, not mine.

Let's read about the Nazis at the state level (toward the end of the article):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych

State awards to Nazi criminals (this is no longer 900 people to 41 million). People have nothing to do with it - these are politicians.
Remember the conversation between Biden and Putin on security? What did they discuss there ... one can only guess.

[webego]

...

900 in a population of 41.46 Million does not justify the invasion and flattening of cities but the Russian propagandist ( and apologists.......) are spinning their own war crimes as the work of Azov which does not explain Bucha and Irpin as Azov is nowhere near those places.......and as has been mentioned time and time again. Volodymyr Zelenskyy is Jewish

...

Sorry forgot to write about Bucha and other. For example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1yoMRLbuuE

This is the mayor of Bucha rejoicing at the withdrawal of Russian troops. He doesn't talk about tragedy. Ukrainian and foreign media will start talking about the tragedy in Bucha 4-5 days after the withdrawal of Russian troops. I will not talk about fakes. Just think for yourself - you leave a small town and shoot a lot of civilians so that you can later be accused of mass crimes?... Just don't talk about the bloodthirstiness of the Russians!

[Karagin]

Y'all do realize that the Russians don't follow the same setup the Western militaries do right? Their NCO Corps is a joke and the duties that MOST Western Mlitraries regulate to NCOs fall on junior and some senior line officers in the Russian and other Eastern European armies? I have seen it in Hungarian and Romanian and somewhat in the Lithuanian militaries and we all know their base is the Soviet model.

So it is no shock or surprise that we are seeing reports of staff/line officers getting killed when it would be reports of captains and LTs if it was a Western military in the same setting. Am I the only one NOT comparing the Russians or Ukrainians to the US military or NATO militires?

[DRG]

Sorry forgot to write about Bucha and other. For example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1yoMRLbuuE

This is the mayor of Bucha rejoicing at the withdrawal of Russian troops. He doesn't talk about tragedy. Ukrainian and foreign media will start talking about the tragedy in Bucha 4-5 days after the withdrawal of Russian troops. I will not talk about fakes. Just think for yourself - you leave a small town and shoot a lot of civilians so that you can later be accused of mass crimes?... Just don't talk about the bloodthirstiness of the Russians!

This is a minute snapshot of events he is happy to be rid of the invaders. End of story -----the rest of the events were reported after the liberation .. after that was recorded



Here is another interesting video about the old lady:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfeflkpcOi4

It's BS like this that will be your end. You are referencing the post Blazoes made in the one above yours but that is NOT the same "old woman" at all.


And no, I don't much care for your distorted opinions

[DRG]

Y'all do realize that the Russians don't follow the same setup the Western militaries do right? Their NCO Corps is a joke and the duties that MOST Western Mlitraries regulate to NCOs fall on junior and some senior line officers in the Russian and other Eastern European armies? I have seen it in Hungarian and Romanian and somewhat in the Lithuanian militaries and we all know their base is the Soviet model.

So it is no shock or surprise that we are seeing reports of staff/line officers getting killed when it would be reports of captains and LTs if it was a Western military in the same setting. Am I the only one NOT comparing the Russians or Ukrainians to the US military or NATO militires?

And just who are you aiming that comment at exactly ??

If it was me WELL DUH..... this was a lieutenant colonel out on a scouting mission with a rifle........ "The Russians don't follow the same setup the Western militaries" yeah NO KIDDING EH?? :doh:

[Karagin]

And just who are you aiming that comment at exactly ??

If it was me WELL DUH..... this was a lieutenant colonel out on a scouting mission with a rifle........ "The Russians don't follow the same setup the Western militaries" yeah NO KIDDING EH?? :doh:

How about all of us? It does seem that we, all are getting a bit to how can one say picking side and not being partial to events without it sounding like anything but that?

If it's clear that they don't work as Western militaries, then it should not be a shock that senior officers went out to see for themselves how craptastic things are, if they are indeed that. As I have said to numerous people, we are getting a one-sided version of events, via media. I do not believe a single thing that comes out of the entire region, mainly because it's all propaganda.

I am not surprised a senior officer went to see things firsthand, hell I have seen senior officers who do stupid things and think they are still junior officers. Never ends well, when they try. This Russian is no exception.

[zovs66]

This is a pretty reliable source and not one sided or media biased.

https://www.understandingwar.org/

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I think the point here is to understand what the media is trying to get out there isn't made for our consumption, I'd say a very healthy portion of us out here cover everything from active duty, retired, veteran (Conscripted, volunteer, reserves etc.) and I would imagine disabled veterans.

I will at this time acknowledge all the non-military people that support this forum and the game THANK YOU!

Back to Para 1; we have been there and done that. We've all experienced the "pitfalls" and successes of the various Chains of Commands we've had to work with in our military careers. Our overall experiences for the good or bad give us a much better view of military issues than "John Q. Public".

We must not lose sight of this perspective as the Media is writing this again for "John Q. Public" where a "scuttlebutt" might be where you put out your cigarette/cigar instead of the water fountain where you gather to gossip. Or a "rack" is a shelve you put your towels on instead of being your bed.

And let's everyone be honest here, I'm sure at least once or twice we've used a military term to describe something that has a total different meaning (Or you get that Huh?) to a civilian.

To us it's stupid to have Generals that close to the front, I'm however sure the Ukrainians have been very thankful that all those who've trained them since 2014 and somewhat earlier got them away from Russian Military Doctrine or else this could've been the case for them as well.

Russia has no real professional cadre in numbers, it is an army of under trained and inexperienced conscripts, they because of the last don't have a professional NCO (Non-Commissioned Officer) branch to train and motivate the troops there is more however, but I'll end with the Officer Corps inability to delegate and communicate at the various levels/up and down the Chain of Command.

That's all OLD NEWS going back to WWII/Cold War/Afghanistan/First Chechen War (Less so in the Second Chechen War) and now the Ukraine.

However, a fair amount of John Q. Public doesn't read history and really isn't too concerned about what's going on in the world around them. I will also include in this para, the hundreds of active-duty service members and retired I see come through the gates every week from all service branches where the focus is what are doing this weekend.

We are outnumbered and surrounded by John Q. Public and it would do us well to remember that and just maybe most of the mainstream media might just be doing something to educate at a basic level John Q. Public providing they can break themselves and their thumbs away from playing a game, watching a movie, discussing last nights dinner etc. etc.; well on second thought, I appreciate the Mainstream medias efforts but for the most part I don't think John Q. Public really cares.

As a footnote when I was in the military (1982 -2002) those serving made up around 0.85-0.90% of the total population in the U.S. and that held true for about 10 yrs. after I retired.

Speaking to some Officers and Recruiters that number has dropped to about 0.7% partly due to the population decrease and other factors.

Anyway and not to take away from anything said elsewhere, those are my thoughts. And I'm not saying John Q. Public IS STUPID, just their interests are different and as much as Shrapnel Games, Andy and Don might wish otherwise, they're probably not interested in our games, forums or threads.

Governments, CIA, FSB, Mi6 and almost every major military I'm sure are following everything we're doing out here!?! :shock: :cool:

Anyway, some hackers or others rained on Putin parade and my translator is saying the same ...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-tv-hack-blood-on-your-hands-anti-war-message-appears-during-victory-day-programming/ar-AAX4zDi?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=715da3812c8d4326a01821287414503b
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-61353374?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6278bc5d9f4dc85502038951%26Anti-war%20protesters%20hack%20Russian%20smart%20TVs%26 2022-05-09T07%3A39%3A08%2B00%3A00&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:de1aabab-47fd-4ba4-8ab9-18cabe75bdaa&pinned_post_asset_id=6278bc5d9f4dc85502038951&pinned_post_type=share

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Wdll]

Interesting only if you want to believe it. It's the narrative the Russians have been using to justify their invasion from the start. That does not make it true but the entire situation from the start has been "complicated"

You can, of course, philosophize )) Everyone decides for himself what to believe. That doesn't make this video a lie. And the truth is always the same.

No. The truth changes. The facts are objective. You take the facts and build a truth.

Like how from the two countries, one invaded the other while it was under no threat from it, yet it blames the defending country for it.
Then again Putin himself said just before the invasion that Ukraine does not exist, is not real and should "join" Russia. You know, like how Nazi Germany did just before the onset of the WWII.

This time, once again, Russia is the bad guy. Russia is the invading force. Russia is the evil that must be stopped. Everything else is just Putin's truth. The invasion is the fact.

[webego]

Sorry forgot to write about Bucha and other. For example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1yoMRLbuuE

This is the mayor of Bucha rejoicing at the withdrawal of Russian troops. He doesn't talk about tragedy. Ukrainian and foreign media will start talking about the tragedy in Bucha 4-5 days after the withdrawal of Russian troops. I will not talk about fakes. Just think for yourself - you leave a small town and shoot a lot of civilians so that you can later be accused of mass crimes?... Just don't talk about the bloodthirstiness of the Russians!

This is a minute snapshot of events he is happy to be rid of the invaders. End of story -----the rest of the events were reported after the liberation .. after that was recorded



Here is another interesting video about the old lady:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfeflkpcOi4

It's BS like this that will be your end. You are referencing the post Blazoes made in the one above yours but that is NOT the same "old woman" at all.


And no, I don't much care for your distorted opinions

According to the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, the Russian troops left Bucha on March 30. The mayor of the city recorded his video message on March 31.

I think that this and other war crimes should be investigated.

----
Next:

This is a video fact filmed by a Ukrainian soldier.

I didn't quote other posts in my post. I didn't write that it was the same old woman. In this video and others, you need to pay attention to a different opinion of other people with different views and a different life.
Why do I have a distorted opinion? Because this opinion does not coincide with your opinion? But even your opinion may be distorted.



Interesting only if you want to believe it. It's the narrative the Russians have been using to justify their invasion from the start. That does not make it true but the entire situation from the start has been "complicated"

You can, of course, philosophize )) Everyone decides for himself what to believe. That doesn't make this video a lie. And the truth is always the same.

No. The truth changes. The facts are objective. You take the facts and build a truth.

Like how from the two countries, one invaded the other while it was under no threat from it, yet it blames the defending country for it.
Then again Putin himself said just before the invasion that Ukraine does not exist, is not real and should "join" Russia. You know, like how Nazi Germany did just before the onset of the WWII.

This time, once again, Russia is the bad guy. Russia is the invading force. Russia is the evil that must be stopped. Everything else is just Putin's truth. The invasion is the fact.

Ok. Let's talk facts.
Russia launched a military operation to protect civilians in the Donets and Lugansk People's Republics.

Let's remember the NATO aggression against Yugoslavia 1999. Read about the reason for the attack:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia
Is there something in common?

Do you want to talk about made-up pretexts for attack? If you are interested in politics and the situation in Ukraine, then look for information about the number of Russians living in Ukraine, the status of the Russian language in Ukraine, Nazi processions on the streets of Ukraine, honoring SS veterans and the destruction of civilians (over the past 8 years) in the Donbass region. Western media (not all) prefer not to notice some events.

Putin is not going to annex Ukraine to Russia. He said the following (quote): "...It is not our plan to occupy the Ukrainian territory..."

If you are wondering what Putin really said on February 24 (text and video):
http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/67843

You forgot to say that Nazi Germany also burned some books (including Jewish ones)... In some Western countries, Russian exhibitions, performances by Russian athletes, musicians are now banned, Russian names are being renamed, etc.

Why is Russia the bad guy? Good guys bombing Iraq, Libya, Yugoslavia?
NATO wars are one thing, but Russia's wars are another?

To live in peace, it is necessary to take into account the interests of all parties, otherwise a conflict similar to the "Caribbean crisis" may occur. An interesting article about "Indivisible Security". Read it (it's small):
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/03/why-does-russia-focus-on-indivisible-security-in-ukraine-standoff

I'm trying to get you my point of view, but you call it propaganda or Putin's truth.
I hope someday the politicians will agree and end these wars.

[Wdll]

Ok. Let's talk facts.
Russia launched a military operation to protect civilians in the Donets and Lugansk People's Republics.

I stopped reading there.
If I were the owner of this site I would ban you right there.
I am not, so I am not going to continue reading more than this from your pathetic propaganda.
You managed to insert 4 lies in less than two lines of text. Congrats.
Don't reply to me again.

[DRG]

Maxim

Your time is coming to an end if for no other reason than what Wdll wrote but maybe you could explain why if .........


"Russia launched a military operation to protect civilians in the Donets and Lugansk People's Republics."


.....which as you and EVERYONE ELSE well knows are two breakaway states in the Donbas region of eastern Ukraine:ukr ........that are within internationally-recognized Ukrainian territory

Why EXACTLY were the great heroes of mother Russia doing 900 km away in Irpin if all they were doing was "protecting civilians in the Donets and Lugansk"

??

Please do explain. We'd all like to hear what you have to say on that and DO try to confine yourself to that and only that question and keep the answer short.

[webego]

On the eve of the military operation, Russia recognized the independence of these republics.
One of Russia's goals is the demilitarization of Ukraine.
The objects of military strikes were also in Odessa, Lvov and other regions. NATO did the same on the territory of Yugoslavia defending Kosovo in 1999 (for example, they bombed Belgrade).

[DRG]

On the eve of the military operation, Russia recognized the independence of these republics.

That's nice and irrelevant. That was the "excuse" to invade


One of Russia's goals is the demilitarization of Ukraine.Not doing such a good job of that. It was relatively peaceful but now it's THE most militarized place on earth and the cause of that is Ukraine's eastern neighbour







The objects of military strikes were also in Odessa, Lvov and other regions. NATO did the same on the territory of Yugoslavia defending Kosovo in 1999 (for example, they bombed Belgrade).

Not the same and you know it.

[jp10]

I have noticed that few of the destroyed Russian armor seemed to be trying to use the terrain in a hull-down position. I believe the game does do Hull-down calculations based on adjoining hex terrain and a % but it is shot by shot, not a long term bonus like being in an emplacement.
Russian tanks because of their low profile and auto loaders do not as easily hull-down. Perhaps one take-away from the current news is this ability should not be allowed for those post T-55 era tanks built like that. (T-55/62/64/72/80...etc).
Also as each shot is displayed could a color/symbol/text indicate if a non-penetration was due to a hull-down advantage?

[Wdll]

I have noticed that few of the destroyed Russian armor seemed to be trying to use the terrain in a hull-down position. I believe the game does do Hull-down calculations based on adjoining hex terrain and a % but it is shot by shot, not a long term bonus like being in an emplacement.
Russian tanks because of their low profile and auto loaders do not as easily hull-down. Perhaps one take-away from the current news is this ability should not be allowed for those post T-55 era tanks built like that. (T-55/62/64/72/80...etc).
Also as each shot is displayed could a color/symbol/text indicate if a non-penetration was due to a hull-down advantage?

Well if I learned one thing about Soviet made tanks is that they do "fantastically well" in dug in positions when they are facing anything that isn't unarmed civilians.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Not much if any advantage against a "top attack" weapon.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[lansoar]

Talking politics in real time, esp in the age of Information is a tricky affair. One thing I've learned from studying "War" is that there is rarely, if ever a white hat/black hat situation.

I am not justifying Russia's decision to invade. Personally I think its wrong. It sets a dangerous precedent. One the world knows only all too well from back in the 1930s. If we are honest however we know that wars like this have continued since the War to End all Wars, and the War after that. Heck, this game is devoted to simulating such conflicts. When I heard the news of the invasion, I felt that sick feeling...a feeling that I might be seeing the beginning of the end of what has been largely a big standoff since 1945 that has kept the peace.....overall, at least in terms of WWIII, nuclear bombs and all. There's always a smaller war going on somewhere. Some not so small but the "main players" were in the background.

That being said.....I'm reminded of Desert Storm. It was my first "war" as a real time civilian spectator. Having built a decent reputation speaking on past military matters with the wisdom of "hindsight" and having access to a lot more "Facts" than many will have when events are occurring as one speaks, I found myself suddenly, when asked "so what happens now?" to be at bit of a loss. Armchair Quarterbacking in it's finest form.

funny thing I also later learned about facts while doing Dev work. Its the ultimate buzz word on forums. Reality is, as I see it at least....is that Facts don't say anything. People use "facts", (when they are facts that is...) to make opinions......or create arguments, conclusions, etc etc. So after 20 years of seeing people at times get heated or try to needle others by saying things like "Well obviously you don't believe in facts...." or "The Facts say otherwise", I learned to counter such by saying simply. "no...I'm not arguing against the facts....I'm arguing against you....and your interpretation of said or alleged facts". Whether I'm right or wrong in my thoughts, I at least took away the Mantle of Truth veneer that the other person or persons were trying so hard to present.

Anyway. Just tossing that out there given its feeling a bit heated in this thread. Its a real time situation. people have strong opinions.

I would pose a rhetorical question though. I'm genuinely interested in reading some viewpoints on this.

Looking at the situation from Russia's viewpoint....is there a justification for the fear at the prospect of having members of a large Military Alliance at their borders along a wide front? Historically the USSR was big on "buffer states". The loss of Ukraine alone I can see how that would disenchant Russian leaders. Add the threat of NATO membership in the mix. Was the West perhaps a little too coy and/or inflexible? Or was a diplomatic solution never in the mix?

While NATO was at it's base an "Alliance", the same could be said of the Warsaw Pact. Both sides had their buffers. Sometimes I think things were simpler back in the 80s....if I can forget the same sense of fear of what "might happen" that was present.

[Wdll]

General question.
If someone steals the bike of a neighbour, does that justify me, a third person, doing the same or worse, to someone else? Would that stand in a court? Ethically? Asking for a friend. If someone defends me from doing this, how much of a douche do they sound like?

[webego]

In this world, everyone should be prohibited from stealing bicycles, or everyone should be allowed.
The law is one for all (ideal situation).
But a rich and strong dad can always negotiate with the judge (like in a movie about bad guys).

[Wdll]

In this world, everyone should be prohibited from stealing bicycles, or everyone should be allowed.
The law is one for all (ideal situation).
But a rich and strong dad can always negotiate with the judge (like in a movie about bad guys).

1. I asked you to not reply to me again. I don't chat with tools.

[DRG]

This thread is now shut down as it has become far too political and adversarial.

That ends now. Comments/ suggestions regarding the game or OOB errors or news that impacts the game are welcome everything else not so much