What happens in 2025? / new tactics- new technologies

[cbreedon]

It's a year and a half away. Does the game die then? Or will the designers at least open the dates so people can make their own updates? It would be sad if it just becomes obsolete in the very near future.

[Suhiir]

WinSPMBT originally ended in 2020 and was extended to 2025.

As to what happens in 2025 that depends entirely on Don and Andy.

BUT !
Given some of the recent tech that's becoming common place (mini-drones, various anti-drone systems, artillery/missile intercept/destruction systems, electronic camouflage/invisibility, robots, cyberwarfare, etc.), stuff WinSPMBT was never designed/coded to deal with going beyond 2025 with the sort of tech/capability accuracy WinSPMBT is famous for would be VERY difficult as it would require basically redesign/coding of the entire game.
So don't hold your breath.

(Note: This is ENTIRELY my opinion and has zero input from Don/Andy.)

[EJ]

All things eventually come to an end BUT I hope not this game in the near future. I hope Don & Andy have a plan to keep this game going beyond 2025. This is one of my favorite tactical strategy games. Will it requiring a complete rebuild to remain relevant beyond 2025? If so I will support it by buying it all over again if necessary!

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Providing as mentioned, Andy and Don should decide to carry on I plan to submit my last submission in the Feb. - March 2026 timeframe.

GEEZ, I don't know speaking for myself I'll not quite be to my 67th year if a patch is released in 2026 with full retirement less than a year after that.

I figure I'll have more time to actually play the game instead working on it along with my regular job and all the wonderful things life throws our way. :rolleyes: :D

It'll be the last opportunity to adjust dates and get some of the equipment into the game such as ARMATA, ALTAY (NEW), LeClerc XLR and ABRAMS M1A2C (SEP 3) which as of this writing still has not reached FOC from the USA.

Also going into the technical aspects is the fact that we can't model the defensive anti-drone systems already in the field from handheld to fully vehicle mounted systems using high speed frequency (ESM) to the more recently practical laser systems. And even simpler systems that "shoot out" nets to "capture" smaller drones.

I would hope we "temper" our desire to add too many drones and other similar systems because those systems against them exist and more importantly we would in fairness have to enter them into about every OOB currently in the game.

The only NEW major land-based system to do so in 2022 from the USA to reach FOC was the AMPV around last fall as I reported.

When I built and submitted the ABRAMS SEP 2 the "magic" number as I remember it took 8 Armored Brigade Combat Teams (ABCT) to be fully equipped with the ABRAMS M1A2 SEP 2 before the USA fielded it.
https://www.army.mil/standto/archive/2016/12/01/#:~:text=The%20armored%20brigade%20combat%20team%2 0%28ABCT%29%20is%20the,artillery%2C%20one%20engine er%20and%20one%20brigade%20support%20battalion.

This is all army.mil has on the ABRAMS M1A2C/SEP 3

https://www.army.mil/article/255225/army_announces_global_defender_22
https://www.army.mil/article/256365/u_s_soldiers_polish_allies_participate_in_abrams_o perations_summit
(Note Para 11 as it pertains to Poland and this discussion.)
https://www.army.mil/article/258709/the_state_of_the_1st_cavalry_division_past_present _and_future
(They were the first unit to get the first of the M1A2C tanks in late 2020.)

I know an ABCT out of Ft. Stewart, Ga. just got fitted out this past year and should just about now or soon be at Ft. Irwin Training Grounds for "finishing school" and qualification to be certified as operational with their new equipment to include M1A2C, AMPV, Paladin A7 and others.

All you need to know about ABRAMS is here to build a timeline.
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/digital-abrams-the-m1a2-sep-program-updated-02834/

"July 8/22: Stryker General Dynamics Land Systems won external link a maximum $145.5 million deal for multiple spare parts in the Abrams Main Battle Tank, Stryker Family of Vehicles, Light Armored Vehicle Family of Vehicles, Cougar, Buffalo and RG-31. This was a sole-source acquisition using justification 10 US Code 2304(c)(1), as stated in Federal Acquisition Regulation 6.302-1. The M1 Abrams entered service in 1980 and currently serves as the main battle tank of the United States Army and formerly the Marine Corps. Work will take place in Florida. Estimated completion date is July 29, 2029."

Not all will see conversion to the M1A2C or M1A2D it seems.

As you can see, we have a lot of "outliners" still out there with maybe Ukrainian F-16 "land attack" jets within 2 years.

Stock up on your favorite "headache" relief product this could all prove interesting.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[blazejos]

Meaby that is a good time to close SPMBT like SPWW2 in fixed timeframe and start to thinking about new game SPWW3 with all that innovations and OOB can be free of many stuff from Cold War.

[Suhiir]

Meaby that is a good time to close SPMBT like SPWW2 in fixed timeframe and start to thinking about new game SPWW3 with all that innovations and OOB can be free of many stuff from Cold War.

Probably.

But who's gonna make it?
Don and Andy are two people not a game development company. Don handles graphics, OOBs, etc. Andy is the coder. Two people ... two. Even if they wanted to create SPWW3 it would take YEARS for one person to code it.

[Dion]

I think they should simply extend the years and update the game yearly. Simple solution. I think it would be best.

[scorpio_rocks]

WinSPWW2 "ends" in 1946 it is still updated and played nearly 80 years later...

WinSPMBT has a while to go yet!

[georgesedlak]

Scorpio is right, the time frame might end in 2025 but like SPWW2 will be played for a long time after.

[Karagin]

What about doing something as they have done with certain nations that change flags, aka new governments, so things hit the 2026 mark, new OOBs are in place that pushed out the older Cold War legacy stuff for those nations that are going full bore forward to the new age using that same method like how Rhoodesia's OOB vanishes post 1980 and is replaced with Zimbabwe.

Nothing saying it's an easy or simple idea, just an idea.

[troopie]

Why don't we let Andy and Don say what they will do?

troopie

[DRG]

"we" are not thinking that far ahead ATM.

[Dion]

Well, I think something needs to be done, because both Steel Panthers titles combined together include all, or almost all the wars fought from 1930 to the near future. If WinSPMBT isn't updated or replaced by a new Steel Panthers title, Steel Panthers just won't be the great wargaming system that it is today. It will probably fade away and become one of those games we played "back in the day".

[zovs66]

1911 to present (I am pretty sure I designed a 1911 scenario, for sure a 1914 one). It won’t fade away trust me.

[Suhiir]

I played the "Broken Arrow" demo and was impressed by it's ability to model vehicles and weapons systems. BUT since it was a demo there were several issues with the weapons systems (types and numbers) the USMC fielded.

My major ... and it is MAJOR ... problem is that it's an RTS.

If you're expected to command/fight a company/battalion/brigade size formation I DEMAND the game be turn based. Because you can't see and be everywhere at once.

So while I'll probably buy/play "Broken Arrow" it can never replace WinSPMBT.

[troopie]

I played the "Broken Arrow" demo and was impressed by it's ability to model vehicles and weapons systems. BUT since it was a demo there were several issues with the weapons systems (types and numbers) the USMC fielded.

My major ... and it is MAJOR ... problem is that it's an RTS.

If you're expected to command/fight a company/battalion/brigade size formation I DEMAND the game be turn based. Because you can't see and be everywhere at once.

So while I'll probably buy/play "Broken Arrow" it can never replace WinSPMBT.

Sir, I agree. RTS can't work until you can give an order to a platoon, company, battalion and expect it to be carried out while you are somewhere else.

troopie

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well, I would respectfully disagree with some of the comments made here.

A game "dies" when the players stop playing it plain and simple.

I somewhat resent the fact that some people have worked real hard on these games outside of Andy and Don in many ways from equipment, scenarios, campaigns and play testing and I'm sure in other capacities as well since it's inception almost.

How with so MANY OOBs can a player feel the game isn't relevant it least on the playability side?

There are several hundred possible combinations in the game. Not including all the Scenarios and Campaigns that people out here have gotten added to the game.

With my current two-year Generated Campaign, I've got it set at 35 battles.

I'll be put in an oven and cooked too well done before I could even come close to exhausting this game.

I cut my teeth in Africa, South America before I went to Europe or Asia. Why don't you visit there as well?

So, I now :welcome: you to ScotCana Airways!!!!!! :clap: :jam: :rock: :wave:

May I suggest since most if not all of you already bought the "unlimited ticket" to travel the world within in these games that maybe you just might want to visit different parts of it!?!

I can ensure your flight will be non-stop with no turbulence and if you choose, Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner or Snacks will be offered at no charge by ScotCana Airways.

As always also there further will be no charge for luggage, devices, boarding passes with free parking!

Finally, as frequent flyers you still get head of the line Check In Boarding and Deplaning Privileges.

Depending on where you land be advised ScotCana Airways absolves itself of ANY responsibility for your personal safety as in some areas "might" be considered dangerous.

So, this is your :cop: Pilot :capt: FB (If I can drive a Submarine I sure as poop can fly a jet! ;)), Welcome Aboard Flight 1930-2025 non-stop to the world!! Please buckle up we'll be wheels up shortly as we are 6th in the que. Have a Wonderful Day!! :cool:

We fly better aircraft than these guys as we use hydrogen powered engines, and all our seats are first class!!
https://skycana.com/nuestra-flota/
https://www.loganair.co.uk/our-story/our-fleet/
Sorry Andy best I could do!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Mustang]

I promise that when MBT dies, MustangMBT will continue.

[jp10]

Couldn't a drone spotter just be a size0 helicopter with difficult-to-kill stat? Kamikaze drones function like airstrikes. While the grenade drops and kamikaze drones look impressive the most battlefield impact has been as arty spotters.

[Suhiir]

Don't expect the current effects of cheap drones to last.
They're VERY effective at the moment because basically no one has developed a defense against them but that will change FAST. Simple jamming or an EM pulse will drop them in a heartbeat.

[Mustang]

Don't expect the current effects of cheap drones to last.
They're VERY effective at the moment because basically no one has developed a defense against them but that will change FAST. Simple jamming or an EM pulse will drop them in a heartbeat.

I think it's safe to not include drones in the game because aircraft are already a stretch and you can kill drones easily with rifles.

[MarkSheppard]

Don't expect the current effects of cheap drones to last.
They're VERY effective at the moment because basically no one has developed a defense against them but that will change FAST. Simple jamming or an EM pulse will drop them in a heartbeat.

Simple jamming isn't stopping the drones on both sides from hitting their targets in appreciable numbers.

Yes, the future is going to be directed energy weapons (DEW) applied to every armored vehicle -- presumably as part of the active protection (APS) system -- if the APS detects a signature similar to the very fast spinning rotors of a quadcopter; send back a short high frequency radar burst to that target to fry the drone.

Or lasers (they're just getting deployed now) will appear in large numbers to counter drones.

Either way, a LOT of coding would be necessary to accurately depict weapons effects for both lasers and DEWs in Steel Panthers since they're a totally new "rock-papers-scissors" paradigm versus the current projectile weapon system used in all Steel Panthers since 1994.

Issues to solve would be:

1.) Size issues -- laser size is rated in kilowatts with targets being:

10 kw = Mortar shells and small drones
50 kw = artillery shells and heavier drones
300 kw = combat aircraft, etc.

2.) Lasers can be affected by dust/smoke/weather conditions; to an extent that projectile weapons aren't.

3.) Microwave (aka Radar based) DEWs are largely unaffected by weather; but are a current unknown-unknown -- in that we don't have public open source data on just how much radar energy is needed to disable/damage current threat profiles -- commercial drones like DJI Mavics should be relatively easy; but a combat aircraft like the F-16 -- IDK how well that would work, given that F-16s have been tested for operations in a nuclear environment with nuclear-generated EMP.

[Mustang]

Don't expect the current effects of cheap drones to last.
They're VERY effective at the moment because basically no one has developed a defense against them but that will change FAST. Simple jamming or an EM pulse will drop them in a heartbeat.

Simple jamming isn't stopping the drones on both sides from hitting their targets in appreciable numbers.

Yes, the future is going to be directed energy weapons (DEW) applied to every armored vehicle -- presumably as part of the active protection (APS) system -- if the APS detects a signature similar to the very fast spinning rotors of a quadcopter; send back a short high frequency radar burst to that target to fry the drone.

Or lasers (they're just getting deployed now) will appear in large numbers to counter drones.

Either way, a LOT of coding would be necessary to accurately depict weapons effects for both lasers and DEWs in Steel Panthers since they're a totally new "rock-papers-scissors" paradigm versus the current projectile weapon system used in all Steel Panthers since 1994.

Issues to solve would be:

1.) Size issues -- laser size is rated in kilowatts with targets being:

10 kw = Mortar shells and small drones
50 kw = artillery shells and heavier drones
300 kw = combat aircraft, etc.

2.) Lasers can be affected by dust/smoke/weather conditions; to an extent that projectile weapons aren't.

3.) Microwave (aka Radar based) DEWs are largely unaffected by weather; but are a current unknown-unknown -- in that we don't have public open source data on just how much radar energy is needed to disable/damage current threat profiles -- commercial drones like DJI Mavics should be relatively easy; but a combat aircraft like the F-16 -- IDK how well that would work, given that F-16s have been tested for operations in a nuclear environment with nuclear-generated EMP.

Drones are just a range 10 grenade. They are already part of the game.

If you do want to know the math behind how jamming works I can show you. The jammers themselves are custom made and there aren't any mass produced models you can put in an oob, but I can give you numbers.

The size value in the game already abstracts all of this. There is no reason to handle different sensors differently. If you can detect something visually you can detect it by radar as well. The size and other values in the game are just for all detection types, for example aircraft have an EW value that is used for stealth and things that aren't EW.

Again, in real life it would be shot down by rifles immediately but if we want to simulate jamming we can. Regardless of drones it would be good to have some understanding of how ground penetrating radars and such work. This also allows tunnel warfare which is the only real thing you need in tbe game as tunnel warfare happens a lot in real life.

But I can give you information on how jamming works and the signal/noise ratio functions, and you can incorporate that as a size value in units, there is no code change needed as the unit visibility is already abstracted as size, suppression, the orders system etc.

[Karagin]

I don't see lasers or DEWs on anything for the next ten years, not until they get a better power source and battery weight issues down to the realm of reality. Projectile weapons aren't being replaced anytime soon. Drones are a great idea, but they have limited use, and everyone is working to counter them so that they might be a short-term item on the battlefield.

Keep in mind not every fight will mimic the insanity we are currently seeing, and that is something I believe the Western military leadership is not keeping in their thinking going forward.

[Mustang]

I don't see lasers or DEWs on anything for the next ten years, not until they get a better power source and battery weight issues down to the realm of reality. Projectile weapons aren't being replaced anytime soon. Drones are a great idea, but they have limited use, and everyone is working to counter them so that they might be a short-term item on the battlefield.

Keep in mind not every fight will mimic the insanity we are currently seeing, and that is something I believe the Western military leadership is not keeping in their thinking going forward.

Not to mention that in any major power war, all GPS satellites will be destroyed immediately and all but the most advanced drones will be completely useless.

[MarkSheppard]

I don't see lasers or DEWs on anything for the next ten years, not until they get a better power source and battery weight issues down to the realm of reality.

This is from last year.

https://seapowermagazine.org/northrop-grumman-laser-weapon-system-completes-deployment-on-uss-portland/

The Laser Weapon System Demonstrator [Mark 2 MOD 0] deployed on the U.S. Navy’s amphibious platform dock ship USS Portland (LPD 27) has competed its first deployment as the Portland returned to its homeport of San Diego in March....

The 150-kilowatt LWSD is mounted on the superstructure of the Portland and is integrated with the ship’s combat information center, where a control console is installed. Northrop Grumman made the Tactical Laser Core Module of the system, while the U.S. government made the system’s energy and thermal storage modules.

....

During the deployment on the Portland, the LWSD was operated and maintained completely by Sailors. No company employees were on board to support the system. The company provided training on the system before the deployment and developed a three-volume operation and maintenance manual for Sailors to use on the ship, she said.

[MarkSheppard]

The US Army released it's Counter UAS (C-UAS) Field Manual (they now call it something else -- ADP).

https://irp.fas.org/doddir/army/atp3-01-81.pdf

ATP 3-01.81
Counter-Unmanned Aircraft System (C-UAS)
AUGUST 2023

...

Group 1 - Micro/Mini UAS (0 to 20 lbs) (RQ-11 Raven / DJI MAVIC) - Generally, hand launched commercial off-the-shelf, radio controlled platforms. They have limited ranges and small payload capabilities. They offer real time video. Operated within line of sight of the user.

Group 2 - Small Tactical (21 to 55 lbs) (SCAN EAGLE / SKY-09Ps) - Small airframes with low radar cross sections provide medium range and endurance. Launched from unimproved areas with a small number of people involved. Requires line of sight to the ground control station.

Group 3 - Tactical (56 to 1,320 lbs) (RQ-7B Shadow / Shahed) -- Similar to Group 1 and 2 UAS, requires a larger logistical footprint. Range and endurance varies significantly among platforms.

Group 4 - Strategic/Theater (Over 1,320 lbs) (MQ-1 Predator / Gray Eagle) - Relatively large systems operated at medium to high altitudes. This group has extended range and endurance capabilities. Normally requires a runway for launch and recovery.

Group 5 - Strategic (Over 1,320 lbs) (RQ-4 Global Hawk / MQ-9 Reaper) - Operates at medium to high altitudes having the greatest range, endurance, and airspeed. Requires large logistical footprint like that of manned aircraft and has a suite of optics for targeting and weaponry for engagements.

NOTE: Integrated air and missile defense (AMD) capabilities can effectively counter larger classes (groups 3, 4, and 5). AMD assets have difficulty tracking, identifying, and defeating small-unmanned aircraft systems (sUASs) (groups 1 and 2).

It also lists publicly what the Army has for defeating small-unmanned aircraft systems (sUASs):

1.) Handheld Radio Direction Finder - it tells you if a threat is operating in the common frequencies used by drones, and where it's coming from.

2.) Simple Directed Energy Weapon -- "Drone Buster" -- an oversized radar gun that jams the frequencies used by commercial drones.

3.) SMART SHOOTER -- A new weapons sight that mounts to existing rifles. When the Smart Shooter is employed, it will only fire when the sight is aligned to hit the target, this includes the required “lead” on a moving target.

[DRG]

3.) SMART SHOOTER -- A new weapons sight that mounts to existing rifles. When the Smart Shooter is employed, it will only fire when the sight is aligned to hit the target, this includes the required “lead” on a moving target.


RE: 3.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5YWXrZdNpA


One comment posted was interesting

For the record, this is more or less the infantry version of an M1 Abrams' fire control suite, which was so phenomenally accurate that crews started referring to their ammunition storage as stowed kills.

[MarkSheppard]

I don't see lasers or DEWs on anything for the next ten years, not until they get a better power source and battery weight issues down to the realm of reality.

https://twitter.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1694753382781870513

Northrop Grumman recently delivered a miniaturized high-energy laser source to the DOD. The 10kW class #HEL, known as #Phantom, is about 12 cubic feet & weighs less than 200 lbs. The laser is ruggedized for field use & miniaturizing it allows for rapid placement according to NG.

20 kW is about equivalent to a 30 hp engine; easily placeable on a AFV as an APU of some sorts that can power the AFV when parked, when it's not powering the laser...

[Karagin]

I don't see lasers or DEWs on anything for the next ten years, not until they get a better power source and battery weight issues down to the realm of reality.

https://twitter.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1694753382781870513

Northrop Grumman recently delivered a miniaturized high-energy laser source to the DOD. The 10kW class #HEL, known as #Phantom, is about 12 cubic feet & weighs less than 200 lbs. The laser is ruggedized for field use & miniaturizing it allows for rapid placement according to NG.

20 kW is about equivalent to a 30 hp engine; easily placeable on a AFV as an APU of some sorts that can power the AFV when parked, when it's not powering the laser...

And what does that APU run on?

Recall again they want to go to all-electric vehicles for BOTH tactical and non-tactical vehicles, including armored tracked and wheeled vehicles. So, while it might be a small APU, what is it running on? And how long does it last? Sounds great, but if it only lasts a few hours at full power, then it's not much use. Also, how many techs are going to be attached to the unit to make sure it stays up and running at full spec?

[Karagin]

Guys they, the DOD and the MIC, have been saying since the late 90s we will have DEW or Laser on AFVs. Yet nothing has happened. In 2008 we were told hey we MIGHT get one for use on the Bradleys to counter IEDs, never happened.

Then while in Korea in 2016, we heard Oh hey, there is talk about a laser weapon being put on the Strykers, and nothing came of that. Every decade since the 80s, the MIC talks, shows off a cool demo system, the DOD throws them money, and nothing ever makes it down to the rank and file to us, so what is going to change this time?

Also, adding a separate APU to an AFV means one more thing that can break down, one more thing that needs to be taken care of. That equals more downtime overall for the AFV. All of that has to be factored into the command and control planning. Important for real life, but maybe not for a war game depending on scale and scope.

[Dion]

Lasers might be twice as powerful as people think because they can start fires. I don't think there's one single animal on earth that will not retreat from fire. I imagine they will breakdown easy, just from everyday wear and tear from simple vibrations that its vehicle its mounted too has to endure each day. Probably would require extra maintenance and re-calibrations daily as well. As far as how decisive they will be on the battlefield, only time will tell.

[MarkSheppard]

Every decade since the 80s, the MIC talks, shows off a cool demo system, the DOD throws them money, and nothing ever makes it down to the rank and file to us, so what is going to change this time?

1. )Big Army is now behind it with the system designated Directed Energy Maneuver-SHORAD [DE M-SHORAD].

https://www.defensenews.com/land/2023/04/13/army-short-range-air-defense-laser-prototypes-take-down-drones-at-yuma/

2.) The Ukrainian war has pushed anti-drone capabilities to the forefront. The cheapest possible weapon now -- IRON DOME style -- costs about $30,000 per interceptor. This just too much when dealing with the DJI MAVIC drone threat of $2 to $3K per drone just flying around with a camera and dropping grenades on you.

3.) Lasers are the solution to a lot of problems. While you can use a radar intended for an active protection system to track drones and probably zap them with microwaves; that's a very limited capability -- it only works on targets that need electronics continuously running to stay in the air -- lasers let you counter artillery shells, mortars and drones with a very low marginal per shot cost. You can also use the laser against ground targets -- i.e. zapping IEDs or suspected IEDs, clearing land mines, destroying UXO, etc.

Also, adding a separate APU to an AFV means one more thing that can break down, one more thing that needs to be taken care of.

The M1A2 SEPv3 Abrams upgrade has a 10 kW APU.

The M2A4 Bradley has an APU.

Big Army saw the light on APUs after thousands of hours were waste in Iraq using Abrams and other AFVs as road sentries, running their engines for hours on end to power the on board sensors needed for the sentry mission.

[Mustang]

If youre going to assume directed energy weapons start fires, the entire map will become flame hexes fast.

As they said in the old NATO boardgame, to simulate the effects of strategic nuclear war, douse the map in gasoline and get a lighter.

[Karagin]

Every decade since the 80s, the MIC talks, shows off a cool demo system, the DOD throws them money, and nothing ever makes it down to the rank and file to us, so what is going to change this time?

1. )Big Army is now behind it with the system designated Directed Energy Maneuver-SHORAD [DE M-SHORAD].

https://www.defensenews.com/land/2023/04/13/army-short-range-air-defense-laser-prototypes-take-down-drones-at-yuma/

2.) The Ukrainian war has pushed anti-drone capabilities to the forefront. The cheapest possible weapon now -- IRON DOME style -- costs about $30,000 per interceptor. This just too much when dealing with the DJI MAVIC drone threat of $2 to $3K per drone just flying around with a camera and dropping grenades on you.

3.) Lasers are the solution to a lot of problems. While you can use a radar intended for an active protection system to track drones and probably zap them with microwaves; that's a very limited capability -- it only works on targets that need electronics continuously running to stay in the air -- lasers let you counter artillery shells, mortars and drones with a very low marginal per shot cost. You can also use the laser against ground targets -- i.e. zapping IEDs or suspected IEDs, clearing land mines, destroying UXO, etc.

Also, adding a separate APU to an AFV means one more thing that can break down, one more thing that needs to be taken care of.

The M1A2 SEPv3 Abrams upgrade has a 10 kW APU.

The M2A4 Bradley has an APU.

Big Army saw the light on APUs after thousands of hours were waste in Iraq using Abrams and other AFVs as road sentries, running their engines for hours on end to power the on board sensors needed for the sentry mission.

APUs are one more thing to go wrong. I have seen firsthand how badly PMCS is done on stuff, seen how well it is done when it's done right. Worlds apart. Also, the DOD is being told to go all-electric by 3030/35, so what good will an APU do them when the damn batteries weigh more than the overall vehicle can carry?

Same for the laser/DEW system, the power source is still the size of a car to give it any chance to do the damage-to-kill ratio it needs to be effective. Shooting down missiles or artillery is great, but to have them on AFVs and be effective against other AFVs on the same level as chemical projectile guns, you will need a lot of power.

Big Army didn't see ****, contractors saw something and sold them something. We the soldiers pointed out issues to them all the time, sent in tons of reports and it got nothing changed. What we got told was to shut the F-UP and worry about our lanes.

Big Army has been dazzled by the MIC since the 60s with their promises of everything from caseless ammo for small arms, which we still haven't gotten, to laser rifles for the infantry. Every other year you see one or more of the contractors pushing their stuff and nothing comes of it other than a lot of money thrown at a project and little return.

Yes, the Army wants the DEW and they want rail guns and they want power armor suits and they better tanks and they want and want...but they don't get everything. And a lot of their pipedream wants are just that pipedreams from the MIC.

I have a nice collection of old COMBAT ARMS magazines with all the promised stuff the MIC was telling the DOD they would give by this point in time and that was back in the 1980s and here we are still not even seeing less than a quarter of that stuff since most of it was lies.

[MarkSheppard]

Drone tactics are evolving rapidly.

With no active Counter Drone system (C-UAS) widely deployed, everything is now a target for aerial drones:

For the IDF...drones dropping PG-7VR Tandem Charge HEAT warheads onto the thin roof armor of their Merkavas

https://twitter.com/TheDeadDistrict/status/1715358410655285375

https://twitter.com/zhang_heqing/status/1715788279315120142

This Merkava Mk3 MBT withstood the hit of a drone dropping PG-7VR munition. The grenade hit directly between two ammunition racks.

A little bit more to the left or right, and that HEAT jet would have hit stowed ammo and... :shock:

In the sudan...drones drop mortar shells

https://twitter.com/africaken1/status/1714573104419082256

quadcopter drone drop a mortar bomb, on unsuspecting Sudanese rapid support forces militia, sleeping on a rooftop of a building

IDF troops have also been hit with mortar bombs -- there's video of IDF troops sheltering behind a vehicle, only for a HAMAS drone to fly over them and drop a mortar bomb on them from the first days of the current middle eastern conflict.

Abandoned tanks have to be recovered ASAP or else they're destroyed.

https://twitter.com/dronefare/status/1713981872923910360

Video from the
@DefenceU
showing a drone operator using a drone to remotely drop a mortar bomb in a Russian Tank through the open hatch

This BTW is like what happened on Okinawa 80~ years ago. If Shermans weren't recovered immediately -- at night, Japanese infiltrators would move up and toss explosives into them.

Drones are moving into fully autonomous mode, capable of operating with no operator.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2023/10/17/ukraines-ai-drones-seek-and-attack-russian-forces-without-human-oversight/?sh=540426b866da

Ukrainian developers have confirmed that their drones are now carrying out autonomous strikes on Russian forces without a human operator. This is the first time such drones are known to have been used, as UN allegations about autonomous attacks in Libya in 2020 remain unproven.

The Saker Scout drones can find, identify and attack 64 different types of Russian ‘military objects’ on their own, operating in areas where radio jamming blocks communication and prevents other drones from working.

The quadcopter Saker Scout, came into service last month and can carry three kilos of bombs to a range of around 12 kilometres. Small drones operated by remote control have proved extremely effective as bombers with modified RKG-3 anti-tank grenades or RPG warheads and can destroy even heavy tanks.

Ground Drones -- UGVs are being used now to lay mines and re-mine previously cleared areas under fire:

https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/10/20/frontline-report-russias-avdiivka-offensive-not-worth-the-losses-a-russian-troop-said/

On top of that, recently released footage showed operations of Ukrainian mine-laying drones, which were produced on the basis of simple radio-controlled cars. These drones are deploying anti-tank mines not only as close to Russian positions as possible but also on the trails made by the Russian tanks to ensure that if the next assault unit tries to use the safe and tested route, it will for sure get on a mine. Such a specific use allows Ukrainians to respond to new developments as they unfold and bring Russians a lot of headaches.

https://twitter.com/OSINTNic/status/1714752095952212371

Russian drone watches a Ukrainian ground drone lay anti-tank mines (English subtitles)

There are unconfirmed rumors right now that the Russians are using cargo drone ground vehicles for autonomous resupply of ground forces; but no imagery has shown up yet.

[Dion]

Man, those are some fine videos. Technology of advanced weapon systems is advancing at such a fast pace, if the game isn't updated past 2025, all those updates of the past will become obsolete real fast.

[Suhiir]

Man, those are some fine videos. Technology of advanced weapon systems is advancing at such a fast pace, if the game isn't updated past 2025, all those updates of the past will become obsolete real fast.
That may be a LOT more difficult then you think.
That would require considerable amounts of new and re-coding. And there's one, ONE, coder, Andy. Even if he wanted to do all the needed coding it would take years, literally, for one man to do all that's needed.

[MarkSheppard]

https://www.calcalistech.com/ctechnews/article/hywpcxufp

"Magen Or," the Israeli rocket interception system, which utilizes a high-powered laser, will soon undergo a series of tests under the conditions of actual combat in the southern part of the country.

"Magen Or" (Iron Beam) represents the next step in Israel's self-defense capabilities: a laser system capable of neutralizing rockets, missiles, or drones from a distance, at zero cost when compared to the Iron Dome.

Following the conflict with the terrorist organization Hamas in the Gaza Strip, the Israeli Ministry of Defense and Rafael recently agreed to deploy the system near the border with Gaza and challenge it with rocket barrages launched by Hamas terrorists. The operational testing of Magen Or - which is still in the development process - will not compromise the operational effectiveness of Iron Dome, which will be activated whenever launches are detected from the Gaza Strip. According to a security source, this is being considered as a live experiment.

The Magen Or system is scheduled to begin initial operations in 2024-2025, following a significant breakthrough in laser weapon technology in recent years. This system is designed to intercept various threats, including rockets, mortar bombs, drones, and more, all at a cost equivalent to the electricity required to operate it. Developers at Rafael categorize Magen Or as a complementary defensive weapon to Iron Dome, also developed and manufactured by the same companies. These two systems are designed to operate in coordination. Therefore, if the command and control system directs a powerful laser beam towards a target, an Iron Dome interceptor will not be deployed, resulting in savings of approximately $50,000 per Iron Dome interceptor.

[troopie]

With the Game, Don and Andy will decide. And I will live with it. Goeie nag.

troopie

[Dion]

From what I remember you can play random battles and scenarios set in the future. How far in the future can you go? I imagine most of the units are hypothetical. Are the units very realistic? If the game isn't updated beyond 2025, will all of these type of games become obsolete? Please excuse me for being so ignorant, but I never played a game set beyond the real date, so I don't really know what their like.

[MarkSheppard]

Drone tactics are evolving rapidly.

Latest thing now. Ukrainians are using cargo drones (actually normal mortar bomb dropping drones) to ferry cargo across the Dnepr to the units that have crossed it.

https://twitter.com/CasualArtyFan/status/1718979897798898012?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Everyone talks about drones in terms of ISR, arty, and FPVs, but what about resupply?

Ukrainians who have crossed the Dnipro are using drones to regularly “ferry” supplies across the river.

On the right is a TRV-150, used by the U.S. Marine Corps in a similar role.

Went looking up the TRV-150:

https://www.popsci.com/technology/marines-large-resupply-drones/

The Marines are getting supersized drones for battlefield resupply
The big flying machines are designed to carry about 150 pounds and can fly at about 67 miles per hour.

BY KELSEY D. ATHERTON | PUBLISHED APR 27, 2023 4:40 PM EDT

On April 11, the Department of Defense announced that it was allocating just over $8 million for 21 new delivery drones. These flying machines, officially called the TRV-150C Tactical Resupply Unmanned Aircraft Systems, are made by Survice Engineering in partnership with Malloy Aeronautics.

The TRV-150C is a four-limbed drone that looks like a quadcopter on stilts. Its tall landing legs allow it to take off with a load of up to 150 pounds of cargo slung underneath. The drone’s four limbs each mount two rotors, making the vehicle more of an octocopter than a quadcopter.

The TRV drone family also represents the successful evolution of a long-running drone development program, one that a decade ago promised hoverbikes for humans and today is instead delivering uncrewed delivery drones.

The contract award is through the Navy and Marine Corps Small Tactical Unmanned Aircraft Systems program office, which is focused on ensuring the people doing the actual fighting on the edge of combat or action get the exact robotic assistance they need. For Marines, this idea has been put into practice and not just theorized, with an exercise involving drone resupply taking place at Quantico, Virginia, at the end of March.

The Tactical Resupply Unmanned Aircraft System (TRUAS), as the TRV-150C is referred to in use, “is designed to provide rapid and assured, highly automated aerial distribution to small units operating in contested environments; thereby enabling flexible and rapid emergency resupply, routine distribution, and a constant push and pull of material in order to ensure a constant state of supply availability,” said Master Sergeant Chris Genualdi in a release about the event. Genualdi already works in the field of airborne and air delivery, so the delivery drone became an additional tool to meet familiar problems.

Malloy Aeronautics boasts that the drone has a range of over 43 miles; in the Marines’ summary from Quantico, the drone is given a range of 9 miles for resupply missions. Both numbers can be accurate: Survice gives the unencumbered range of the TRV-150 at 45 miles, while carrying 150 pounds of cargo that range is reduced to 8 miles.

With a speed of about 67 mph and a flight process that is largely automated, the TRV-150C is a tool that can get meaningful quantities of vital supplies where they are needed, when they are needed. Malloy also boasts that drones in the TRV-150 family have batteries that can be easily swapped, allowing for greater operational tempo as the drones themselves do not have to wait for a recharge before being sent on their next mission.

These delivery drones use “waypoint navigation for mission planning, which uses programmed coordinates to direct the aircraft’s flight pattern,” the Marines said in a release, with Genualdi noting “that the simplicity of operating the TRUAS is such that a Marine with no experience with unmanned aircraft systems can be trained to operate and conduct field level maintenance on it in just five training days.”

Reducing the complexity of the drone to essentially a flying cart that can autonomously deliver gear where needed is huge. The kinds of supplies needed in battle are all straightforward—vital tools like more bullets, more meals, or even more blood and medical equipment—so attempts at life-saving can be made even if it’s unsafe for the soldiers to move towards friendly lines for more elaborate care.

Getting the drone down to just a functional delivery vehicle comes after years of work. In 2014, Malloy debuted a video of a reduced scale hoverbike designed for a human to ride on, using four rotors and a rectangular body. En route to becoming the basis for the delivery drone seen today, the hoverbike was explored by the US Army as a novel way to fly scouts around. This scout ultimately moved to become a resupply tool, which the Army tested in January 2017.

In 2020, the US Navy held a competition for a range of delivery drones at the Yuma Proving Grounds in Arizona. The entry by Malloy and Survice came in first place, and cemented the TRV series as the drones to watch for battlefield delivery. In 2021, British forces used TRV drones in an exercise, with the drones tasked with delivering blood to the wounded.

“This award represents a success story in the transition of technology from U.S. research laboratories into the hands of our warfighters,” said Mark Butkiewicz, a vice president at SURVICE Engineering, in a release. “We started with an established and proven product from Malloy Aeronautics and integrated the necessary tech to provide additional tactical functionality for the US warfighter. We then worked with research labs to conduct field experiments with warfighters to refine the use of autonomous unmanned multirotor drones to augment logistical operations at the forward most edge of the battlefield.”

The 21 drones awarded by the initial contract will provide a better start, alongside the drones already used for training, in teaching the Marines how to rely on robots doing resupply missions in combat. Genualdi expects the Marines to create a special specialty to support the use of drones, with commanders dispatching members to learn how to work alongside the drone.

The drones could also see life as exportation and rescue tools, flying through small gaps in trees, buildings, and rubble in order to get people the aid they need. In both peace and wartime uses, the drone’s merit is its ability to get cargo where it is needed without putting additional humans at risk of catching a bullet.

EDIT: I think the pace of drone development is so rapid, with everyone getting them, that I think that it may be useful to simply consolidate them (if not already done) into BLUE or RED OBAT as "Grenade Drone", "Mortar Drone", "25 kg Kamikaze Drone", "Resupply UGV", "Resupply UAS"

[MarkSheppard]

HAMAS is now using grenade drones against the IDF with locally 3d printed fins.

https://twitter.com/war_noir/status/1719795974816546959

#Palestine / #Israel 🇵🇸🇮🇱: Al-Qassam Brigades (#HAMAS) carried out a drone attack on #IDF soldiers in Beit Hanoun, #Gaza.

The group dropped a craft-made copy of M26A2 hand grenade fitted with contact fuze and tail; which was resulted in the deaths of several Israeli soldiers.

https://twitter.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1719723988430299597

From developing the worlds first functional solid-state #GaN powered High Power Microwave counter electronics system, to rapidly iterating that to the current 3rd gen #Leonidas, proving it to the US Army & delivering operational system inside a year of being put on contract. 👏

https://twitter.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1719750140141895761

A company spokesman told Breaking Defense the plan is to now deliver the second directed energy weapon to the Army..by the end of December and complete delivery of the full platoon of four IFPC-HPMs early next year.

https://breakingdefense.com/2023/11/army-gets-its-hands-on-new-high-power-microwave-prototype-from-epirus/

WASHINGTON —The US Army has accepted delivery of Epirus’s first high-power microwave prototype for a new developmental initiative aimed at protecting soldiers and facilities from swarms of aerial drones, the company announced today.

The delivery marks the first of four prototypes derived from the company’s Leonidas counter-unmanned aircraft systems (cUAS) system that Epirus owes the service after inking a nearly three-year, $66.1 million contract in December 2022 for the Indirect Fire Protection Capability–High-Power Microwave (IFPC-HPM) initiative. A company spokesman told Breaking Defense the plan is to now deliver the second directed energy weapon to the Army’s Rapid Capabilities and Critical Technologies Office (RCCTO) by the end of December and complete delivery of the full platoon of four IFPC-HPMs early next year.

==========

As I posted in previous post (edited in, so Don may have missed it), but the pace of drone development / counter drone development is so rapid, with everyone getting them, that I think that it may be useful to simply consolidate these types of equipment into BLUE or RED OBAT as "Grenade Drone", "Mortar Drone", "25 kg Kamikaze Drone", "Resupply UGV", "Resupply UAS", "HPM Microwave Weapon", "Laser" etc.

I know you guys talked about in the past how you wished you had done more generic weapons systems -- "5.56mm rifle", "5.56mm scoped rifle", "5.56mm LMG" -- to save on weapon slots in national OBATS.

[Dion]

As I posted in previous post (edited in, so Don may have missed it), but the pace of drone development / counter drone development is so rapid, with everyone getting them, that I think that it may be useful to simply consolidate these types of equipment into BLUE or RED OBAT as "Grenade Drone", "Mortar Drone", "25 kg Kamikaze Drone", "Resupply UGV", "Resupply UAS", "HPM Microwave Weapon", "Laser" etc.


I hope an OBAT is a generic form of an OOB. If it is, I hope it gets included in the next update!

[Karagin]

I hope we can jam drones in the next update.

[DRG]

I hope we can jam drones in the next update.

What does "I hope we can jam drones in the next update." mean exactly?

There are already numerous drones in the OOBs including a unitclass for drones

[Karagin]

I hope we can jam drones in the next update.

What does "I hope we can jam drones in the next update." mean exactly?

There are already numerous drones in the OOBs including a unitclass for drones

ECM units that counter drones not just shoot them down. Stop them from doing their tactical job, like how smoke blocks LOS for units to a point or terrain does.

Not having more drone units, I think that is a waste of space, I am saying having the function for a setting for units to be able to actively disrupt the drones on the board, in the same manner smoke does LOS.

[MarkSheppard]

https://twitter.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1720777360507617629

Long thread.

US Army will spend 2024 putting its 50kW DE #MSHORAD & #IFPC-HPM platoons through the paces at various exercises focused on developing TTP's & integrating with kinetic counterparts. Coming out of this, both are expected to transition into formal programs for fielding more broadly.

...

While the Army & other services have 5, 10, & 20 kW High Energy Lasers and High Power Microwave systems operationally deployed to protect deployed troops and operational bases, DE-MSHORAD, and IFPC-HPM are the first two of several DEW's being integrated into US Army units.

...

In 2025, the US Army would also begin receiving the first of 4 300 kW IFPC-High Energy Laser systems from LM & Dynetics. IFPC HEL & HPM will form the non kinetic components of the Indirect Fires Protection Capability, with the Enduring Shield acting as its kinetic component.

...

Together, these will sit below the #PATRIOT & THAAD components of Army's Integrated Air & Missile Defense, and cover the short range air defense needs against Cruise Missiles, Group 3+ UAS, & RAM. Army plans to field 9 IFPC battalions (27 IFPC batteries).

[MarkSheppard]

Indirect Fire Protection Capability (IFPC) will be a set of mobile, ground-based weapon systems designed for Cruise Missile Defense (CMD), Counter-UAS (C-UAS) and Counter-Rocket, Artillery and Mortars [Counter-RAM] (C-RAM).

The Army doesn't know *exactly* what the precise mix of components will be; they bought two battalions of Iron Dome (now going to Israel) for use as an interim Cruise Missile Defense (CMD) system.

ENDURING SHIELD is the codename for one "final" Cruise Missile Defense System -- it's basically a palletized ground launcher for the AIM-9X Sidewinder. 16 launchers and 40 missiles will be received and tested in 2024.

The Army is taking their time to figure out IFPC to find out exactly what mix of weapons are needed -- i.e. the precise balance of missiles vs lasers vs high power microwave weapons -- because even the US can't afford to spend $400K per shot [rough cost of AIM-9X] on every target.

[MarkSheppard]

Latest drone news...

...supposedly, the Ukrainians are now using robot boats to transport jammers into the middle of the Dneipr river to prevent Russian FPV Drone attacks on Ukrainian boats/troops crossing the Dneipr or on the other bank.

Previous attempts to protect crossings with fixed jammers resulted in said jammers eating Iskander-M SRBMs.

BMP-3s *may* get a built in drone jammer

https://twitter.com/Shaimurato13576/status/1721501415154032934

BMP-3 will get a FPV jammer, looks like Volnorez on a mast.

Drones in the battlefield are now beginning to incorporate shielding to partially negate GPS jamming:

https://twitter.com/DanielR33187703/status/1721221895138537964

Russian Drone workshops assembling drones in videos are now showing a metal can on a rod -- it appears to be a shielding device that protects GPS receivers from jamming coming from below, while the top is open, allowing GPS signals to be received.

[DRG]

Latest drone news...

...supposedly, the Ukrainians are now using robot boats to transport jammers into the middle of the Dneipr river to prevent Russian FPV Drone attacks on Ukrainian boats/troops crossing the Dneipr or on the other bank.

Previous attempts to protect crossings with fixed jammers resulted in said jammers eating Iskander-M SRBMs.

BMP-3s *may* get a built in drone jammer

https://twitter.com/Shaimurato13576/status/1721501415154032934

BMP-3 will get a FPV jammer, looks like Volnorez on a mast.

Drones in the battlefield are now beginning to incorporate shielding to partially negate GPS jamming:

https://twitter.com/DanielR33187703/status/1721221895138537964

Russian Drone workshops assembling drones in videos are now showing a metal can on a rod -- it appears to be a shielding device that protects GPS receivers from jamming coming from below, while the top is open, allowing GPS signals to be received.




https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/deja_q_hd_046_resized_6484.jpg

[Suhiir]

And on the subject of drones/jammers/etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaWVrphbHXI&list=WL&index=7
48:53

[MarkSheppard]

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/deja_q_hd_046_resized_6484.jpg

The russians are making makeshift RF shields using workshop materials to match commercially available anti-interference shields for GPS receivers:

https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/Sad32feeb305445a4a7244202caa634aeB/CNC-GPS-Anti-interference-Antenna-Mount-Holder-Stent-Case-for-APM-M8N-Quadcopter-Black-Blue-Red.jpg

The idea is that it blocks signals coming from below the drone (likely to be jamming/interference) but the top (aka GPS signals) are clear.

Anyway. Some more drone stuff dropped -- we've got clear videos/pics of the russian minelaying UGVs

https://twitter.com/TheDeadDistrict/status/1724005538697007109

https://twitter.com/sambendett/status/1724061745172328769

Continuing the Russian DIY UGV thread - two more small UGVs in this videos: Su-4 small UGV for mining ops that is guided by a small drone, can deliver two 50kg bombs, was tested around Bakhmut, around 15 are at the front; and Su-6 larger UGV combat platform.

https://twitter.com/sambendett/status/1709927667624198411

Apparently, Russian state media reports that the BRG-1 light UGV (see posts below) will get #AI installed for autonomous ops and greater working range, with tests to take place this October. Taking this with a grain of salt?

https://twitter.com/sambendett/status/1703071031953379470

Apparently, according to Russian TASS state media, this BRG-1 UGV is now officially used by the military for evacuating injured and delivering supplies. Earlier test runs in a short thread below.

[MarkSheppard]

Another issue for 2025 and onwards is that we're seeing datalinks proliferate to the ground user.

One of the big reasons Ukraine's offensive slowed down was because of the KA-52 Black Shark fleet; specifically the newer model -- Ka-52M which has the LMUR (ЛМУР -- Легкая многоцелевая управляемая ракета) Legkaya Mnogotselevaya Upravlyayemaya Raketa, lit. 'Light Multipurpose Guided Rocket'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMUR

The LMUR is a big boy -- 100 kg and a 25 kg warhead (versus Hellfire's 50 kg and 9 kg warhead); but what makes it so dangerous is that it's the first real "digital/datalinked" weapon the Russians have and it has an extremely long range of 14.5 km.

LMUR has two modes:

Mode 1: The target is marked by the operator before launch, and the carrier helicopter can turn away directly after the missile launch -- essentially "fire and forget" Hellfire logic.

But what's new is Mode 2.

Mode 2: The missile is launched by the Ka-52M without on-board target lock. The LMUR flies towards a point selected by the operator; with GPS guidance and transmits what it's seeker sees back to the launching platform. The operator can then look at what the LMUR sees and select a target (or change it) while the missile is flying towards it.

LMUR is the only Russian ATGM capable of this -- and this Mode 2 is the only one in which it reaches the 14.5 km range.

In Ukraine, the Russians have used UAS Drones to spot enemy targets, with the target location/information being passed on to nearby Ka-52Ms who launch their LMURs into the blue (for them). This is extremely effective, because the Ka-52M can destroy targets without exposing themselves personally to Ukranian air defenses and LMUR's 14+ km range means they can stay out of range of a large portion of Ukranian air defenses.

Ukraine now has received an ATGM that operates upon the same "datalink" principles:

https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_november_2023_global_security_army_in dustry/france_confirms_delivery_of_mbda_akeron_mp_antitan k_missiles_to_ukraine.html

On November 9, Défense & Sécurité Internationale posted a tweet broadcasting a short speech by Lionel Royer-Perreaut, a member of the French National Assembly, during a hearing of the Defense Commission dedicated to the French military assistance to Ukraine. A delivery so far unnoticed, he confirmed the supply of Akeron MP ATGMs, among other weapon systems consisting mainly of Mistral air defense missiles, CAESAR self-propelled howitzers and TRF1 155mm towed howitzers.

Akeron MP operates much like LMUR -- Mode 1 (Fire & Forget) or Mode 2 (Post-Launch Targeting) -- so while an individual Akeron ATGM operator may not be able to see a target; he can be told via other methods that there's a target, and launch into the blind and target after launch.

[DRG]

In Ukraine, the Russians have used UAS Drones to spot enemy targets, with the target location/information being passed on to nearby Ka-52Ms who launch their LMURs into the blue (for them). This is extremely effective because the Ka-52M can destroy targets without exposing themselves personally to Ukranian air defenses and LMUR's 14+ km range means they can stay out of range of a large portion of Ukranian air defenses.


The game already allows this .( more or less)

A recce Drone can be used to call in an NLOS weapon and a NLOS weapon can be carried by a Helo

...... the combination is very effective

What we don't have are Russian NLOS weapons and we don't use NLOS weapons as off-map assets

EDIT

What I can say now is off map NLOS units can be built and they work REALLY WELL with drones and they also Counter Battery very well

As in "Thunderbolts from Thors hammer Mjölnir" well

[DRG]

Something we need to identify as these weapons evolve is which would be or should be, classed as NLOS as opposed to just being a "normal" ATGM system or should there be one of each....a Mode 1 (Fire & Forget) and a Mode 2 (Post-Launch Targeting).

The issue is unit cost ( and weapon and unit slots ) two ATGM that are the same except one uses a multi charge ATGM weapns class so is a F&F/ Mode 1 unit and the other uses the designated NLOS weapons class--- the NLOS team will be roughly 100 points more expensive --but also more effective-- in the game when coupled with drone control

That said a NLOS unit can target as direct fire and NLOS so one NLOS unit would probably be simpler for everyone

[DRG]

One of the big reasons Ukraine's offensive slowed down was because of the KA-52 Black Shark fleet; specifically the newer model -- Ka-52M which has the LMUR (ЛМУР -- Легкая многоцелевая управляемая ракета) Legkaya Mnogotselevaya Upravlyayemaya Raketa, lit. 'Light Multipurpose Guided Rocket'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMUR

The LMUR is a big boy -- 100 kg and a 25 kg warhead (versus Hellfire's 50 kg and 9 kg warhead); but what makes it so dangerous is that it's the first real "digital/datalinked" weapon the Russians have and it has an extremely long range of 14.5 km.

LMUR ?......... If that thing doesn't get code named ELMER I will be very surprised
https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16956&stc=1&d=1700160055

[DRG]

There is info I can use for the game if anyone finds it..... so far I have struck out


How many Elmers can an KA-52 carry ?

If anyone finds a list of NLOS capable ATGM that includes Elmer post it, please.


Thanks

For now, temporary I figure since they weigh twice what the Vikir does it can carry half as many but that's just a WAG

[scorpio_rocks]

Looks like the Mi-28 carries 2 on each pylon in the places it is visible in the photos/vids here:
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/russias-mi-28nm-attack-helicopter-seen-using-new-anti-armor-missile-in-ukraine

"The helicopter carries two LMUR missiles on a twin APU-L rail on the outer pylon under the right wing; the other pylon is empty. It’s not possible to see exactly what’s hanging under the left wing, except for an extra fuel tank. In another video, published a few days earlier (https://t.co/dc7VZK5HdE) by the Ugolok_Sitha channel, a Mi-28NM is seen carrying one LMUR missile under its right wing (on an APU-L twin rail), with a B8V-20 rocket launcher and an additional fuel tank under the left wing."

so 2 for every 6 or 8 Vikhr / Ataka

[DRG]

OK. 4 works for me

EDIT

The caption for this is "The APU-L double rail for LMUR missiles."

https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/01/17/08-APU-L-double-rail-for-LMUR-missilecPiotr-Butowski.jpg?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1920

[DRG]

It's difficult to outrun a drone in the open

https://youtu.be/voshtfn9PRM

[MarkSheppard]

Excerpts from a Twitter thread on the life of a "mobile" drone operator

https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1726997077518151973

A DAY AT THE FRONT - The 28th mechanized

We spent a day with the 28th mechanized brigade, operating in eastern Ukraine. In this thread we give an honest insight of what we saw and what the current situation is at the front.

A story with
@guillaume_ptak
and
@PDocumentarians

...

We woke up at 3:30am and met the press-officer of the 28th Mechanized Brigade in Kramatorsk. We had to move under the cover of darkness so as to avoid being targeted by the Russian FPV drones now plaguing Ukrainian defenders on the frontline....

...

According to the officer, FPV drones are responsible for the vast majority of casualties now sustained by Ukrainian soldiers in eastern Ukraine. After meeting the drone operators, we jumped in the back of their flat-bed truck and set out towards the cold and snowy frontline....

...


After finally getting the drone to work, they flew it out towards the frontline but quickly lost its signal. The onset of winter has proven an obstacle for drones operators, as batteries discharge faster in the cold and the humidity interferes with the signal....


....

Andrii apologized to us, and explained that their work for the day was over. However, they would have to stay at the position until evening, making their way back under the cover of darkness. Artillery shells kept landing in the distance, on Russian positions....

Seems drones on both sides have forced everyone to a semi-nocturnal lifestyle -- i.e. personnel & equipment resupply has to operate under conditions of darkness or very bad weather, lest ubiquitous FPS drones strike.

...

Returning to Lasers:

https://twitter.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1726587727758627172

While power levels are not the only consideration, early DOD evaluations with first and second gen. solid state HEL's has led to the following:

🔸5-15kW: Group 1 & 2 [UAV] defeat
🔸20kW: G 1, 2 & 3 [UAV] defeat
🔸50-60kW: G 1,2 & 3 [UAVs] + RAM [Rockets & Mortars] & some CM [Cruise Missiles]
🔸100-300kW: Long-Range Rockets & Cruise Missiles

Back to drones...

We finally know what "Baba Yaga" is -- the mysterious Ukrainian Drone that Russians have been calling that.

https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1726498616020283439

Essentially, the AFU have been using a large, heavy drone as a "mothership" -- most Drones only have a range of 5 to 8 km, limited by both batteries and line of sight propagation of radio for control signals.

The Baba Yaga drone acts as a mothership, carrying smaller drones deep into the battlefield, before releasing them and then acting as a mobile radio relay at an altitude of 1000m for the released drones. This lets AFU strike 20 to 30 km into the rear with drones that normally could only strike 5 to 8 km.

[MarkSheppard]

I'm basically turning this thread into a dumping place for "new tactics, new technologies"; rather than a raw OOB thread, because there's a lot of changes going on now.

Konrad Muzyka visited Southern Ukraine with Kofman, [Rob] Lee, and Gady -- it was detailed in this paywalled article:

https://rochanconsulting.substack.com/p/ukraine-conflict-monitor-impressions

But some people cut and pasted it. The things of most interest to this thread:

The war is also very drone-centric. There could be 20 drones flying near the frontline along the 10 km wide front. Neither side has the ability to achieve a tactical surprise unless an attack is launched in drone adverse weather (rain with very heavy winds); Readiness to respond to ground attacks is very high. We saw Russian troops (a platoon) walking towards the frontline. Once they were detected, they were engaged by mortars within 30 seconds and by artillery cluster munitions after an additional four minutes. Both sides have capabilities to ISR opposing forces' tactical depths;

(emphasis mine).

The "detect to destroy" cycle is very short now. :shock:

[Dion]

The Baba Yaga drone acts as a mothership, carrying smaller drones deep into the battlefield, before releasing them and then acting as a mobile radio relay at an altitude of 1000m for the released drones. This lets AFU strike 20 to 30 km into the rear with drones that normally could only strike 5 to 8 km.

Sounds like "No Mans Land" has been extended exponentially, making the front to big for conventional weapons, making Weapons of Mass Destruction a viable choice again. Sounds deadly, for both soldiers and civilians alike. It's like WWI all over again, but with high technology. Looks like SPWWIII is becoming more viable all the time. I don't know how practical a new title would be though. I say just extend the game beyond 2025, a simple solution for a complicated situation, at least until we figure out a better way to do it.

[MarkSheppard]

GPS guided bombs from standoff distances are playing a larger part:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAF7OtWWUAAr_7l?format=jpg&name=small

Russians are starting to serially produce helicopter UAS:

https://twitter.com/Karmabash/status/1728796852709884036

https://t.me/mertviorku/3813

Serial production of new unmanned Termit helicopters was shown in the Russian Federation - Defense Express

They can carry three laser-guided missiles and fire at a distance of up to six kilometers. The drone itself reaches a speed of 150 km/h and can stay in the air for up to six hours.

It is noted that drones were being developed even before the invasion of Ukraine, and at least three of them are at a high level of readiness.

https://twitter.com/sambendett/status/1729861730954608865

Russia's PPSh Lab is starting to mass-produce its "Triton" counter-FPV system that can be mounted on tanks, vehicles and stationary targets; the backpack version is for assault ground troops - presumably that backpack can suppress FPV drone signals as well.

Ukraine is now placing UGVs into service

https://twitter.com/anno1540/status/1698599349859578357

the ground drone "Karakurt" has appeared in the service of the Armed Forces of Ukraine , the "Engineering Corps" association, which is engaged in the development of equipment for our military.

The drone is good at overcoming trenches and earthen embankments. It was named after the most poisonous spider found in Ukraine - the karakurt. This ground drone was developed on the basis of a gyroboard. It can be made in 2 days with a team of 3-4 people. Now there are dozens of them on the front lines.

https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1728698508582990192

Russian sources write that the Armed Forces of 🇺🇦Ukraine, in addition to kamikaze aerial drones, are beginning to use remote-controlled ground drones. Mobile drones are maneuverable and silent. According to Russian soldiers, these drones have a heat sensor, as soon as they get close, the drone detonates

https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1728494103283859909

New weapon used by Ukraine per Russian report

A ground drone loaded with explosive to clear Russian trenches ahead of an assault

This one, unfortunately, did not work out as intended

[DRG]

https://sundries.ua/en/ukrainian-armed-forces-demonstrate-karakurt-ground-drone-in-action-for-the-first-time/

[MarkSheppard]

More UGVs:

Footage of the Ukranian minelaying UGVs in the front:

https://twitter.com/clashreport/status/1744807371711410391
Ukrainian unmanned ground vehicles are being at the front for laying anti-tank mines.

The AFU has deployed to combat the "Ironclad" UGV, which is armed with the Remote weapon station SHABLYA + thermal sight

https://twitter.com/Alfaiomi/status/1745848837732745631
https://twitter.com/infussambas/status/1745826258867679650

It seems that AFU is now deploying fixed site versions of the Shablya RWS:

https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/land/13416-shablya-remote-gun-turrets-approved-for-use-by-ukraine

Three of the armed and thermal/video image-equipped RWS, built by Lviv robotics manufacturer Roboneers, have been approved for use by the Armed Forces of Ukraine, according to a Ministry of Defence (MOD) statement published late last year.

...

The Ukrainian MOD has approved the ShaBlya remote weapon station for use in conducting reconnaissance, identifying targets on the battlefield, for checkpoint and border defence as well as offensively engaging infantry, lightly armoured combat vehicles, unmanned aerial vehicles, and suppressing opposing firing positions.

The rotating tripod turret system can reportedly be armed with a 7.62mm, M240 or M2 machine gun, automatic grenade launcher and other weapons to engage targets up to 1,200 metres away. It has also previously been shown using a Steamdeck console as its controller and aiming maintained on a video monitor from a distance of 100 metres via direct cable.

Or basically...

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5f38928c6a88e13e25e3fd64/1598217761156-NH0K4O3EPKCSRKADEORK/img-66.jpg

[Suhiir]

https://sundries.ua/en/ukrainian-armed-forces-demonstrate-karakurt-ground-drone-in-action-for-the-first-time/

The AFU has deployed to combat the "Ironclad" UGV, which is armed with the Remote weapon station SHABLYA + thermal sight
https://twitter.com/Alfaiomi/status/1745848837732745631
https://twitter.com/infussambas/status/1745826258867679650

I expect to see a LOT of these, or something similar, in future conflicts.

[MarkSheppard]

This will only increase as the world faces a manpower crunch due to collapsing birthrates.

You'll see this with the increasing penetration of UGVs to do tasks traditionally seen as manpower intensive or very dangerous:

Minelaying
Mineclearing
Scouting
Manning fixed defensive lines

IOW; with a TFR of less than 2.1 in many countries; you can't just scout using the traditional method of "drive down that road until something happens or you get blown up" (aka advance to contact).

Not enough manpower anymore to be like that. So robots will be the ones advancing to contact.

[Dion]

I know a lot of robots that would be really good at that, especially the ones who call you and can talk. Not only the robots, but also the people that run them too, people who think they are protected by the constitutional right of free speech to program robots to trick the gullible to answer questions that make people feel foolish for answering, then asking the person for money based on how they answer the question. What a disgrace.

[Felix Nephthys]

I know a lot of robots that would be really good at that, especially the ones who call you and can talk. Not only the robots, but also the people that run them too, people who think they are protected by the constitutional right of free speech to program robots to trick the gullible to answer questions that make people feel foolish for answering, then asking the person for money based on how they answer the question. What a disgrace.Can this be modeled in the game? Seriously though, this is a story I'd like to hear more about. They have blackmail droids now?

[Dion]

Ya, people will do anything for money. These "droids" speak perfect English, they don't even have an accent, they laugh and everything. I hate talking to anybody on the phone nowadays that I don't know. People are getting scammed on the phone all the time.

[Suhiir]

Few weeks ago some telemarketer was calling me 5-10 times a day with different offers (i.e. scams) and was using a different "voice" for each. It could/did answer certain basic questions but the general speale was always the same so that sort of gave it away.

[DRG]

This will only increase as the world faces a manpower crunch due to collapsing birthrates.

IOW; with a TFR of less than 2.1 in many countries; you can't just scout using the traditional method of "drive down that road until something happens or you get blown up" (aka advance to contact).

Not enough manpower anymore to be like that. So robots will be the ones advancing to contact.

Its a lot simpler to "order" a robot to " Go over to that tree line and draw fire"

That ties in with something I noticed recently in building a little scenario to "simulate" that engagement between the Ukrainian Bradleys and the T-90 attached

In the game it's trickier than RL as the T-90 can detect the Brads no matter which way it's facing

You need to dismount the troops in the Brads to distract i.e "draw fire" OR you use the drone that I added to simulate the one that was used to record the event

Even then, it's tricky getting the Brads into position without losing one

[MarkSheppard]

Begun these Drone Wars, they have...

https://i.imgur.com/ml2ExxK.png
UGV used by Russian forces to deliver ammo in sights of Ukrainian FPV drone.

Also, the happiest dog and his new drone friend....

https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1747943593367478592
(Testing of a new AFU Ground Combat Drone armed with RPK)

[MarkSheppard]

https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1748681037821919526

Ukrainian EW and drone specialist Serhii Flash estimates the effectiveness of Ukrainian FPVs to be around 30%, highly dependent on the unit.

Дуже багатьох цікавить питання ефективності FPV.

До целi долітає та попадае 30% FPV. Це середня цифра по країни. І то її ніхто ніколи не рахував, це просто моє припущення. В одних підрозділів вона може бути часом 70%, а в інших 20%.

Залежить це від таких факторів:
1. Якість БПЛА
2. Правильний підбір частот та протоколів для конкретної ділянки фронту
3. Активність російського РЕБ на дільниці фронту
4. Досвід пілотiв
5. Правильність та достовірність розвідки

Бувае так шо одним підрозділам постiйно дають «жирні» та точні цілі і вонi мають успішність 60%. Їх ставлять у приклад, всіх тягнуть під їхній показник, натомість замовчуючи, як він досягається

Я прошу великих командирів на фронтах «не гнати план». Зростання показників має бути з МІСЯЦЯМИ. Це означає, що підрозділ розвивається.
Але успішність на усiх фронтах різна.

Якщо цікавить моя особиста думка, то довгостроковий показник 50% - це дуже, дуже хороший результат. Але не завжди його реально досягти.

Many are interested in the question of FPV efficiency.

30% FPV reaches and hits the target. This is the average figure for the country. And no one has ever counted her, this is just my guess. In some divisions, it can sometimes be 70%, and in others 20%.

It depends on the following factors:

1. UAV quality
2. Correct selection of frequencies and protocols for a specific section of the front
3. The activity of the Russian EW on the front line
4. Experience of pilots
5. Correctness and reliability of intelligence

It happens that some divisions are constantly given "fat" and precise goals and they have a success rate of 60%. They are set as an example, everyone is dragged under their indicator, instead of keeping silent about how it is achieved

I ask the great commanders on the fronts "not to pursue the plan." The increase in indicators should be with MONTHS. This means that the unit is developing.

But success on all fronts is different.

If you're interested in my personal opinion, a long-term figure of 50% is a very, very good result. But it is not always realistic to achieve it.

[MarkSheppard]

The famous Bradley that mogged that T-90 has a drone jammer on the turret.

https://twitter.com/TheDeadDistrict/status/1748215646653948411

Apparently the average range of this type of jammer that AFU is using widely is 40 to 80 meters.

It doesn't stop drones from hovering 200-400 meters away and taking video of you with zoom lens; but it does mitigate a little bit of the suicide FPV drone threat...

...with one caveat...

...you've got to be moving. A jamming range of 40-50m means that if you're stationary; even if you jam a suicide FPV drone in it's attack dive, the ballistics of the drone will mean that it has a good chance of hitting you.

Rough figures...

Objects in free fall drop about 25 m/sec.

Average height of a 10-story building is about 30-35m.

A FPV UAV in power dive takes maybe 1 to 1.2 seconds to hit the target.

Bradleys are 6.55m long...figure an average speed of 7 m/sec so that a Bradley can clear it's own length through the aim point for the FPV UAV operator.

That's roughly 25 km/hr (or 15.6 mph).

Essentially, from the math above; if you have a EW Jammer...movement is life.

EDIT: I just realized that Drones themselves are causing combined arms. They force units to be mobile to avoid drone attack runs; which in turn makes the units visible and targets for other weapons systems on the battlefield.

EDIT II -- and of course someone pointed out that the NEXT generation of FPV kamikaze drones coming online will have machine recognition and AI tracking (currently available in larger stuff like Lancets); so they'd be able to track through jamming; unlike a remotely human operated UAV using a datalink.

[DRG]

"Slightly" off topic but it's not worth making a new thread

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/01/22/7438289/
https://i.imgur.com/sy8Vysy.png

A the bottom of the map are given the distance of the Russian advances

500m x 700 m = 10 game hexes by 14 game hexes

450m x 140 m = 9 hexes by 3 ( rounded )

150m = 3 game hexes

They are advances but.......

https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgXaeOe9ShGZk2I-4mNKrGn6J9drTTo_c47p-PaEaF71qHYshS63coMwhk8oYVu-ld48FaITxtmOL4WVm-ScKxDpu9tk0ogxdUNkSPxDHspURI8MEnUPYj24m8AdhLrBmlU7 TZPKDWzdtxtg7IlcK_mSDQxiRfDPfVw84I8COHycIZXLUkHmJ0 =w488-h640

[Suhiir]

The more I see from Ukraine the more I'm reminded of WWI.

Minus:
Gas
Modern counter-batter makes prolonged artillery pounding a non-issue.
Modern AA makes air strikes VERY difficult.
Suicide drones make even mortars much less of a problem.

[DRG]

The more I see from Ukraine the more I'm reminded of WWI.



To paraphrase and slightly adjust a quote widely attributed to Stalin....

" in a war of attrition, quantity has a quality all it's own"



Ukraine Population (July 2021 est.) 43,745,640
Russia Population (July 2021 est.) 142,320,790

[MarkSheppard]

Seriously though, this is a story I'd like to hear more about. They have blackmail droids now?

OK, this is a slight detour from SPCAMO games, but I think it's worthy to tell in some detail, if nothing else but to get the word out so that people are less likely to fall for scams.

Okay.

AI blackmail / Whitemail is a variant of the old "bad news" scam:

You get a message or phone call in the middle of the night saying that your son/daughter has been in a car accident / been arrested / whatever; and that they need money (which of course is gonna be gift cards).

What makes AI Black/Whitemail so much more dangerous is that AI is advanced enough to "fake a voice" if given a sufficiently long speech sample -- maybe 20 seconds of you talking might be enough for them to make an AI to fake your voice with 85% accuracy.

So now, instead of a super sketchy text message saying that your son has been in an accident -- it literally sounds like your son/daughter is calling you -- maybe from jail; maybe from the hospital, doesn't matter.

AI voice algorithms have also given new life to the "indian call center scam" -- i.e. you get a call from "Microsoft Tech Support" saying that they've detected a virus on your computer; and if you would do the needful, they can fix it for you (which entails you setting up a remote connection to their PC, allowing them to steal everything of note on your hard drive).

The Indian Call Center Scam has been slowly dying out as people now refuse to answer any calls which have Indian accents.

Enter real time voice AI synthesization -- now they don't sound like Pradvisha from Delhi, but John from Peoria.

It's not 100% though; because of the limited english skills of a lot of these call center scammers; they mangle the verbs and syntax of english, so even though they now sound like Bob from Peoria, they are asking you to do the needful.

In a military context; there's a lot you could do with AI voice/visual synthesization (Deep Fakes). For example, you could fake the voice and video of a commanding officer and tell his troops to surrender; or insert fake orders into the command stream -- even if they're countermanded by real orders in the secure encrypted text communications system, it's still uncertainity that slows down the speed of execution of orders if you have to verify each one.

There's also some nastiness; like possibly using AI/Video deepfakes to break POWs to make them give you information; a variant of the "we have captured your children. You will give us your bank account information or we do bad things to them -- and then cut to AI generated audio/video of your children begging for their lives -- a "virtual kidnapping"

https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/29/us/ai-scam-calls-kidnapping-cec/index.html

Jennifer DeStefano’s phone rang one afternoon as she climbed out of her car outside the dance studio where her younger daughter Aubrey had a rehearsal. The caller showed up as unknown, and she briefly contemplated not picking up.

But her older daughter, 15-year-old Brianna, was away training for a ski race and DeStefano feared it could be a medical emergency.

“Hello?” she answered on speaker phone as she locked her car and lugged her purse and laptop bag into the studio.

She was greeted by yelling and sobbing.

“Mom! I messed up!” screamed a girl’s voice.

“What did you do?!? What happened?!?” DeStefano asked.

“The voice sounded just like Brie’s, the inflection, everything,” she told CNN recently. “Then, all of a sudden, I heard a man say, ‘Lay down, put your head back.’ I’m thinking she’s being gurnied off the mountain, which is common in skiing. So I started to panic.”

As the cries for help continued in the background, a deep male voice started firing off commands: “Listen here. I have your daughter. You call the police, you call anybody, I’m gonna pop her something so full of drugs. I’m gonna have my way with her then drop her off in Mexico, and you’re never going to see her again.”

DeStefano froze. Then she ran into the dance studio, shaking and screaming for help. She felt like she was suddenly drowning.

After a chaotic, rapid-fire series of events that included a $1 million ransom demand, a 911 call and a frantic effort to reach Brianna, the “kidnapping” was exposed as a scam. A puzzled Brianna called to tell her mother that she didn’t know what the fuss was about and that everything was fine.

[lansoar]

CHATGPT! ..well maybe not. :). hopefully the dedicated will remain.

we all want a WinSPMBT with ai Drones connected to Amazon.com and remote MBT's with alien armor alloys.

[MarkSheppard]

New stuff just dropped, babe:

https://twitter.com/markito0171/status/1750768549583311286
https://twitter.com/SenftPatrick/status/1751020941415498026

Ukrainian military used a UGV and drove it 4 km (2.5 miles) behind enemy lines to deliver a KZ-4 demolition charge to drop a bridge:

https://twitter.com/SenftPatrick/status/1751020946515706253

The KZ-4 used here as a warhead is designed to disable roads and reinforced concrete structures.

The KZ-4 packs a substantial 49kg of TG-50 explosive (weighing 63kg in total).

It's quite impressive that the UGV managed to drive 4km with that much weight without falling over.

And elsewhere, you have further use of UGVs to deploy TM-62 mines

https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1750896740574658839
https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1744969691993366970

But what's new is that both sides apparently now are using UAVs to deploy mines from the air silently:

https://twitter.com/Jamie04381095/status/1753794077756211484

The [RUSSIAN] enemy continues to mine [UKRANIAN] our positions with anti-personnel mines at night using drones 😡

So be careful & watch your step, especially in the morning when you leave your dugout or shelter.

[DRG]

New stuff just dropped, babe:

https://twitter.com/markito0171/status/1750768549583311286


FORTUNATELY it is possible to hit the mute button for this vid..... you WILL want to before the earworm burrows too deep!

[Isto]

I like the idea of Future MBT type of third Steel Panthers game. As in, keeping the WinSPMBT as it is with no new modern add ons, and create an entire new game to be updated (for example starting at date 2025).

That would make things simpler, and possibly even preserve the old WinSPMBT from any possible malfunctioning it can have because of new added features, and only add the new features to entirely new platform, updating it as the time goes on (by whoever is up for that task).

[Dion]

I like it! As it would give Shrapnel the excuse to do all the little things that they have been saying can't done without having to create a whole new game. I have my doubts that it would work as described though. I think they would accidentally forget to include some of the "old" features of the current system, or forget to include some obscure feature that not many people use, but in reality the feature is very important to some players, just not used by the majority of players.

If they made a whole new game, it would give them a reason to raise the system requirements without ruining the current version. In my opinion that would be an outstanding consequence, as that would mean the graphics and other features would be state of the art!

Really, the only thing I see that's missing are mainly walls, tunnels, and some other obscure types of terrain, and possibly the upgrade of graphics too, but to tell you the truth, I think the current version has the best "top down" graphics on the market. The only games I see that has better graphics are real time games, and if Steel Panthers became a real time game, I think the game would change so much, it would become a different game, as a result, action scenes would become more important than game play.

[KAreil]

I like the idea of Future MBT type of third Steel Panthers game. As in, keeping the WinSPMBT as it is with no new modern add ons, and create an entire new game to be updated (for example starting at date 2025).

That would make things simpler, and possibly even preserve the old WinSPMBT from any possible malfunctioning it can have because of new added features, and only add the new features to entirely new platform, updating it as the time goes on (by whoever is up for that task).


Wanted to post something like that myself. Personally I would fully support a third game like "WinSP2k" or similar.

I would let it start in the year 2000 and have an overlap of the database with WinSPMBT. The new game could have (if possible from the code) new features not available in the older engines to make all this UAV centric warfare possible.

[MarkSheppard]

https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1763262908430008813

More drones proliferating, this one is Ukranian

Ground drone with 7.62-mm PKT in service of the 🇺🇦61st Separate Mechanized Brigade.

Combined effects warhead for FPV drones

https://twitter.com/GrandpaRoy2/status/1763322462576713729

Ukraine is expanding the variety and lethality of warheads for its FPVs. Here we see a HEAT/ball-bearing fragmentation ammunition with roller bearings added to the front as additional fragmentation pieces. The copper cone to form the explosive jet is nicely visible.

Another thing to note is that when FPVs are used; they're used en masse -- i.e. as of late 2023 / early 2024, instead of lone or triplet FPV attacks, we're seeing swarming attacks; many of them going after a single target.

[MarkSheppard]

Remember that UGV I posted about a few pages back carrying a demolition charge to blow a bridge some 4 km from the operator?

We've gotten the scaled down version

https://twitter.com/War_Gang_/status/1763667779889119274

Translated from the Polish

Probably the first published (?) use of a robot (UGV) to paralyze 🇷🇺 positions.

The ground unmanned aircraft was - according to the description - carrying a TM-62M anti-tank mine, which was detonated remotely.

This will complement FPV drones to some extent. Why? Because the structures currently used cannot support the weight of the TM-62M (over 9kg); and the drones that can do this only fly at night because they are big and slow.

It is therefore possible that, to some narrow extent, UGVs will be able to complement the activities of drones and multiply each other's actions. FPV drones as fighters covering the way to the target for their driving colleagues 😉

UxV combined arms 😉

And yes - we are aware of the limitations of equipment, terrain, and enemy actions 🙂

[MarkSheppard]

More evolution!

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1763909659927162966

Ukraine is now using WWII bomber escort solutions for drones -- the slower, bigger "Baba Yaga" carrying heavy munitions is escorted by swarms of smaller FPV drones.

[DRG]

Tactics on the battlefield always evolve or in this case, are rediscovered. It is more noticeable with drones because its' use is evolving so quickly

They discovered quickly in WW1 that the light bombers needed fighter support and the Ukrainians have simply applied that lesson to the new tech

[MarkSheppard]

Speaking of evolution; right now, the gangs in Haiti are using drones in a method similar to Hamas during the first few days of the Gaza War; i.e. for recon and to drop grenades onto the Haitian police.

Moving off Haiti and onto Israel v Hamas in Gaza...

Apparently one of the reasons we haven't seen a lot of drone footage from Gaza of Hamas v. Israel since the first few weeks of this (current) war is because the IDF brought up a lot of EW equipment once they came under attack from drones and managed to achieve a modicum of electronic warfare superiority.

Moving off drones...

https://breakingdefense.com/2024/03/exclusive-strykers-with-50-kilowatt-lasers-in-centcom-for-experiment-army-no-2-says/

EXCLUSIVE: Strykers with 50-kilowatt lasers in CENTCOM for experiment, Army No. 2 says
By ASHLEY ROQUE on March 01, 2024 at 10:05 AM

“Is it 100 percent ready? Is it going to work perfectly? Probably not but we're going to learn from it,” Army Vice Chief of Staff Gen. James Mingus told Breaking Defense.

CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. — Early last month, the US Army sent four Stryker-mounted 50-kilowatt laser prototypes to the Middle East for real-world testing that includes facing down dust particles, the service’s new vice chief, Gen. James Mingus, revealed to Breaking Defense.

“It’s a prototype, but we want to experiment in a live environment,” Mingus said Wednesday in his first interview since being sworn in as the vice-chief in January. “Is it 100 percent ready? Is it going to work perfectly? Probably not, but we’re going to learn from it.”

At a breakfast in February, Army Chief Gen. Randy George said the US Central Command (CENTCOM) region is aligned to receive new counter-unmanned aerial systems (C-UAS) as part of his new “transforming in contact” push where users, developers and testers can converge and provide feedback. Part of that initiative seemingly includes the Directed Energy Maneuver Short-Range Air Defense (DE M-SHORAD) prototype that integrates a 50-kilowatt laser onto Strykers to down class 1 to 3 aerial drones and incoming rockets, artillery and mortars. (Kord Technologies was tasked with integrating an RTX laser onto combat vehicles.)

Four of those prototypes arrived in CENTCOM’s area of operations in early February, and the service has begun initial testing activities but not live-fire ones. Once they do, Mingus surmised that it may take several months to process observations that could fuel tech maturation and acquisition decisions.

“Our high-energy lasers are so susceptible to weather. That’s why I think this is going to be a great laboratory because anytime there’s a dust storm, anytime there’s that kind of thing, it starts to alter the physics of the light particles that actually shoot that beam,” he said.

One question the service is looking to answer is just which class of lasers is right for the threat set, instead of people simply getting enamored with the power difference between 300-kilowatt lasers versus 50-kilowatt ones. Specifically, Mingus wants more answers about the directed energy value per square centimeter.

“You may have a 50-kilowatt laser, [but] at 10 kilometers can you put at least four kilowatts in a centimeter square because … that’s what you need to burn through a quarter inch steel plate?” he asked. “But that’s really hard to get … from a big beam to get the small portion of it on the exact spot to be able to burn at that high intensity and any kind of dust particle or that starts to disrupt that.”

If this experiment series proves fruitful, it could help the service decide if that 50-kilowatt class laser is the right fit, or if it should maybe spend more time looking at a 28-kilowatt option.

At the same time, service leaders are also keeping an eye on logistics concerns associated with keeping high-energy weapons up and running on the battlefield, where higher tech replacement parts aren’t in plenty. But because the DE M-SHORAD system is still a prototype and not mass, this round of testing is not representative of the exact challenges soldiers will face on the battlefield since the supply chain remains “shallow.”

“We knew that, but we thought that it was still worth pushing them over there,” he added.

The proliferation of aerial drones on the battlefield in places like Ukraine and in the Red Sea — to include loitering, one-way attack ones — is accelerating a push to develop and field new defense weapons to down them. CENTCOM, in particular, has in recent months contended with dozens of attacks on US installations in Iraq and Syria — as well as a drone attack in Jordan that killed three American soldiers — though those attacks have taped off since the fatal incident.

While Pentagon leaders note the need for such weapons, they are also grappling with the per-kill cost of launching kinetic interceptors that can be in the millions of dollars.

If directed energy ones like the DE M-SHORAD prove fruitful in mass, it offers a window for significantly lowering that per-unit kill price point and/or providing commanders with a mix of kinetic and directed energy C-UASs to use depending on the threat set or weather conditions.

[Isto]

Not sure is it appropriate to comment on this thread on this subject. But somehow i see Energy Weapons, especially Laser weapons of something that might not stand the test of time. There might be a timeframe they excell, but that timeframe might stay short as others adapt to their use.

It can be as easy, than just coat the missile with a material, that either absorbs or mirrors the beam away in some way.

For example, if you shoot Laser beam to mirror, what happens ?


So the production of Laser Weapons, can be very expensive and time consuming. When the counter can be very cheap, easy and simple. So in the end, can very much be, that it is not worth it.

But the Air Burst munition for example, that use kinetic projectiles that can track the missile and change direction in the air, exploding to hundreds of pellets before hitting the target, even one pellet enough to possible neutralize the target. Can be shot on rapid fire rates like 300 rounds per minute on 40-50mm platform and something like 120 rounds a minute with 76mm platform, and 90 rounds a minute with 127mm platform or the likes. Which can become the Mainstay for any Infantry Fighting Vehicle (An Airburst fully automated CIWS turret that tracks and destroys missiles, drones, loitering munitions automatically offering close range air defence to troops, artillery, supply and so).

The smaller calibers can even be installed to a tank. For example, a future thank contains 2 x 25mm CIWS turrets with AirBurst munition in both sides of turret. And for why not, also can transport infantry similar than IFV (like Merkava can) and function as Artillery shooting guided munitions.

No matter what kind of missiles, drones or loitering munitions you develop in the future, the AirBurst munition is always relevant against them because it uses Kinetic Energy to destroy the target.

This is the route Italy Army have chosen. They go the Autocannon route, and are heavily invested in AirBurst type of munitions. You can see this in their Navy too. When others install few turrets in their Ships, Italy instals 4 in each ship (3 in front, and one in back so, that at certain angle, they can all fire at same direction). The largest of these can be used to shoot guided munitions further away than 120 kilometers. So especially in that Mediterranean area, those turrets have a high threat range to ships too, can be used to Shore Bombardment instead of missiles, and can be used to effectically neutralize any missile Threats to the ships. The munition is also way cheaper to produce than missiles, and you can take more of them on the ship than missiles. Lets say opposing ship have 80 missiles, they can very well have 8 000 munitions available against them and they are effective on neutralizing any missile threats, as they track the missile, and change course in the air, exploding on front of target to smaller pellets on rapid fire rate. It is a new development, the AirBurst (OTO Melara) and Vulcano rounds are new. Germany uses the similar type of munitions, but they emphasis on smaller caliber (35mm Millenium Gun) combined with Missile Defence (IRIS-T) - SkyGuard.


So for example. What can a tank like i described achieve ?

It can support the troops with Guided Artillery fire. It can protect itself and the troops with AirBurst CIWS munitions from any aerial threats. It can transport the troops. So if needed, you could only produce them and they can do everything you need (Air Defence, Artillery Support and Transporting the Troops). You can only produce one platforms, and just spam it.

If you want higher caliber air defence, you can make dedicated 76mm Air Burst Autocannon unit, that can be operated by 2 persons. And when parked somewhere on standby (automated), the crew can get out and do not even need to be within the vehicle, as it is fully automated. Italy already uses this approach, and it is operational.


For these reasons. I would not invest on Laser equipment. I would invest on Autocannons. How i see things (and i suppose, how Italy sees it). Automated Autocannons is the platform for the future, and the development of Seek and Destroy algorithm for the Guided Artillery and Autocannon munitions in Low and Mid Range. That is the most Cost Effective way.

You do not need Drones or Loitering Munitions, if you have Guided Munitions. Guided Munitions are always superior to Drones, and you only use Drones because you are out of Guided Munitons, or do not have the option to acquire them. If you could choose as a commander, you would of course always choose a Guided Munition or Missile over Loitering Muniton or Drone because their properties are superior.

The Seek and Destroy Algorithm: can even be very simple. It only need to function Offline (as in high EW environment) and be able to confirm than target, seek and destroy (independently offline after the launch).

It is also a matter of Logistics. You need less storage space and less Maintenance. When you have less platforms with Motors, less Missiles (platforms with Motors) and so on.

Having stored enough Guided Rounds. Makes you very powerful player in the military scene. And they will be relevant now and forever. This will never change. (if they are Offline Guided).

(And if needed, can possibly be coated against Laser Weapons).


These Properties:

1. Is able to Seek and Destroy targets independently without Outside Guidance.

2. Is coated against Laser Weapons.

Then what you do, when opponent pummels endlessly with this kind of munition and you invested on Laser Defence, which is not functional against them. And your EW does nothing ?

And then when you launch your small supply of expensive Missiles to them, they get destroyed by high volume of Guided Air Burst Munitions which is a mainstay for even the most basic of troops.


It sounds very fancy and futuristic to speak of High Tech Laser Weapons and Autonomous Platforms. But in the end can very much be, that they achieve nothing and the direct approach is way more Efficient.

The only AI you really need is Seek and Destroy Algorithm.


The Rail Gun development i see as something that would be relevant. But the problem for it consuming too much energy to be practical may never be fixed, and there might never be new energy sources. The Cold Fusion probably, consumes more energy than produces because the laws of physics dictate so meaning, that most likely it can never be used as an Energy Source.

I also feel like, that certain Thresholds have been achieved in Technology Development on certain areas. That cannot be broken. The Laws of Physics dictate so, and the challenge is to fine tune the existing techniques rather than, find new ones as very possibly (in some cases), the new techniques are not there if the Laws of Physics cannot be altered.

Foe example, the technique for CIWS was originally introduced in the 70's (if i remember right) trough Phalanx CIWS, and stays relative for a long time to come. The challenge have been to fine tune it. But include modern Air Burst munition to the original Phalanx CIWS code, and it will be very effective even without changing the direction of the munitions in the air, what the current algorithm and development can achieve.

Still, even the oldest Phalanx CIWS have not outdated yet, and probably never will.

Of course the original Phalanx CIWS could not use the Air Burst munition without Update. But the Update for it would probably be very minor. The same with the guided Air Burst. It is probably not a major update for the Program, but a major update for the Ammunition it uses.

[MarkSheppard]

It can be as easy, than just coat the missile with a material, that either absorbs or mirrors the beam away in some way.

They give a specific power figure in the above article (4 kW/cm2) and a specific penetration figure at 10 km (quarter inch steel plate = 6.35mm)

The 122 mm OF-462 artillery shell has a wall thickness of about 17mm

LINK to drawing (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:122_mm_OF-462.jpg)

60 to 80mm mortars have a wall thickness of about 12mm

81mm mortar drawing (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/An-81-mm-mortar-cartridge-high-explosive_fig1_38054241)

60mm mortar drawing (https://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mortar/60mm/M766.gif)

A large commercial aircraft like the 747/Airbus/etc has about 2 to 4 mm skin thickness in aluminum; while ballistic missiles differ -- Titan II ICBM had a maximum skin thickness of 6~mm; while the Titan III Space Launch Vehicle went up to 12~mm to support heavier payloads on top.

[Aeraaa]

A very interesting article about the way drones shape the battlefield in Ukraine:

https://warontherocks.com/2024/03/drones-are-transforming-the-battlefield-in-ukraine-but-in-an-evolutionary-fashion/

[MarkSheppard]

Babe, new drone specialized type just dropped! :hurt:

Russians have started to deploy FPS and battlefield UAS using fiber optics guidance

https://twitter.com/clashreport/status/1765736910943613005

New Russian Russian FPV drone with a coil of thin fiber optic cable over 10 kilometers long.

The drone transmits digital, real-time video over a 10.5km spool of fiber-optic cable.

This kind of drone is almost impossible to stop with EW.

[DRG]

The only way to simulate that in the game is to give a drone a very high EW value.

That would be better suited to scenario work as I doubt these are going to become really common

[MarkSheppard]

Russia is now using semi or powered glide bomb kits.

Basically normal FAB bombs with pop out wings and GPS guidance; and in some cases, a small turbojet to extend range.

It's how they were able to take Avdiivka -- by dropping 100~ of them each day.

This way, they can drop them from 60-70 km away, and stay out of range of Ukrainian SAMs.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/11/russia-glide-bombs-air-force-avdiivka/

In an account posted on the social media site Telegram during the battle, Maksym Zhorin of Ukraine’s 3rd Separate Assault Brigade described how 60 to 80 of the glide bombs were crashing into his area every day. “These bombs completely destroy any position. All buildings and structures simply turn into a pit after the arrival of just one.”

Since January, Russian airstrikes across the front line have routinely exceeded 100 a day, with nearly 160 occurring four days before Avdiivka fell, he said.

Big difference over the last few months of Russian glide bomb use is that instead of 250 kg bombs as a base... it's now 1500 kg (!!!)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/glide-bomb-russia-ukraine-air-strikes-b2511360.html

The FAB-1500 (ФАБ-1500) is the latest iteration. It includes 675kg of explosives, can be fired from between 40km and 70km away from its target, and has a destruction radius of 200 metres. It has been nicknamed the “building destroyer” by Russian war bloggers.

[MarkSheppard]

Back to lasers:

https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1767966050308551008

Britain showed the results of the DragonFire combat laser.

It is reported that the photos of the British government laboratory of defense equipment shows the results of the laser - it burned through a 120-mm mortar shell, cut the metal casing and burned the camera of the copter.

Also the day before, the British Ministry of Defense showed a video of a laser test.

DragonFire was successfully tested in January of this year. The laser is stated to be very accurate with a direct beam, can hit visible targets at the speed of light, and is very cheap to use.


Bunch of media at that twitter post; but the one most of interest (once I do calculations) is this:

https://i.imgur.com/Sr3qSgB.jpeg

[MarkSheppard]

https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1768364270247350478

Tests of Ukrainian mine laying drone equipped with 15 TM-62 anti tank mines

Rather simple; the mines are attached to each other by string, so it requires somewhat level ground, and it results in a very obvious pattern. More of a "deny ground" tactic that wastes the enemy's time by forcing them to dismount and demine.

[DRG]

https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1768364270247350478

Tests of Ukrainian mine laying drone equipped with 15 TM-62 anti tank mines

Rather simple; the mines are attached to each other by string, so it requires somewhat level ground, and it results in a very obvious pattern. More of a "deny ground" tactic that wastes the enemy's time by forcing them to dismount and demine.

If wasting the enemy's time is the goal then only a few of them real saves scarce resources and slows him down just as well

[Isto]

Yeah, seems Formidable at least. But it should not affect all materials the same. That is a very astonishing Development, i wont downplay that. I just say, that there can be things it wont affect the same. (that picture shows a stronger result than i anticipated)

The effectiveness of such weapon should depend much on the material it is used against. (or yes, but there should be a Kinetic representative, that can go against any current equipment and prevail. And against Missiles espcially, they are weak against Kinetic Force and i suppose Mortar Shells and Artillery Shells are not that sturdy either. I dont know is it really necessary, but many newer US Surface to Air Missiles uses a Kinetic Penetrator too. If im not entirely mistaken, they dont have Explosive Warheads at all as they supposedly think, they are not needed to achieve the goal of shooting missiles down. I also do not fully understand how they function, but thats what is stated on their information in Wikipedia: Kinetic Penetrator - For example, i do not know do they just attempt to head butt the opposing missile, or do they have an Air Burst type penetrator, that explodes as multiple pellets within proximity of the target, or both)

The effective of Kinetic weapons not that much.

Not sure about Mortar Shells, but against Missiles who use lighter chassis on default. Steel is usually not even used ?

Composite Materials are the thing as far as i have read from my limited sources. Mixture of different kind of materials, as light but strong as possible. When laser weapons get more common, they have to take them into account when engineering defences against them. Can very much be, there are several materials that Laser weapons are ineffective against because of how they function.

I am not an expert on Laser weapons. But i do know a mirror reflects them ? So against certain reflective surfaces, it might not behave the same than against pure steel. The Pure Steel (or Rolled Homogenous Armor) is also seen outdated compared to current solutions on armor.

As far as i know, pure steel is an outdated thing even against Kinetic threats. And the Helicopter gets utterly annihilated against Air Burst munitions. They are not only Blinded, but they become a Wreck and are basically Destroyed. They are so slow moving target, that it is not likely, that they can ever evade a sophisticated Autocannon system. The moment it shows itself, is very likely the moment it is wrecked. Thats why modern Helicopters uses approach, where they can shoot missiles without being seen. But that is also not necessary, as you can do that with Infantry Platforms and Ground Platforms too, there really is no difference do you launch a missile like Spike from a Helicopter or a Ground Platform. You can still hide behind terrain, and guide it mid flight without being seen yourself. Except the Helicopter price is most likely more than 10 times the price of a Ground system. But against peer opponent, you cannot bring Helicopters in the open. You will most likely end up using them the same way as Artillery. And then, why would you not just focus on the Artillery in the first place. And for example, German IRIS-T missiles can be shot against Helicopters without actually seeing them. They have a sophisticated Hunt and Seek Algorithm, that will hunt the helicopters in the blind. No matter, is it in the open or not.

So they just have to start to use different chassis that is adjusted to be resistant against Laser type weaponry. The mortars and shells might not be the problem, if you have seeker missiles that is capable of destroying the laser system.

The laser systems might not be costly to use as shot per shot basis. But the building of the laser system itself should be expensive. Each destroyed laser system is not cheap, and if you can effectively make hunt and seek offline missiles immune to them with sophisticated seek and destroy algorithms. Then the laser systems are in serious danger against them and after the laser systems have been neutralized, you can start use the normal Mortar and Artillery Shells. There might not be real need to adjust Mortar and Artillery Shells against Laser Weaponry, if you can effectively Neutralize them with missiles that the Laser Weapons cannot counter. Then the result should be, that you combine the Laser System with Missile Defence and Kinetic Defence. But the Laser Defence alone, might not be enough in itself. And the Air Burst munition is very capable a defence system also, which can make a Laser System an expensive asset to produce, which ends up performing a very limited role, that can also be performed by other, more well rounded platforms, like Autocannons too.

Against Kinetic Force, i suppose they are better against lighter targets, as in missiles, than against Mortar rounds. But as far as i have been informed, you can use Kinetic force against Mortar and Artillery Shells too.

Kinetic Force will not outdate in my opinion. I am very sceptical of the path of development many Armies have decided to take (Autonomous Robot Armies, Fully Autonomous Systems, Wing Man Planes, Laser Weaponry, Wireless Connectivity and so on). I very much value the Traditional Methods, and Traditional equipment made Sophisticated (like Autocannons, Artillery, Missiles and Human Controlled Fighter Jets).

The main idea of Wing Man Plan is represented as, that it "Draws Fire" and enables to operate within a Danger Zone. But if you have equipment like JASSM Extended Range, with 2 000 km of range. Why would you ever go within the Danger Zone, if you can pummel all of their air defence without ever put your own assets to risk. And then, where you need Wing Man planes, if you never plan to operate within any danger zones. The Missile is not that different of a Wing Man Plane, but i suppose building a missile should be cheaper, and take less of product capability. To choose between multiple Cruise Missiles and few Wing Man Planes. Can very much be, that a Cruise Missile is the better option. The future development of Cruise Missile also start to resemble more and more like a plane. So a Future Cruise Missile might not be that different from a Wing Man Plane (as in, they shoot missiles to guard the cruise missile against enemy surface to air missiles and so on, and have cluster warheads, which each of them have separate Hunt and Seek mechanism that is capable of operating without any connection to the host as in, in Offline Heavy EW environment - You basically just launch them endlessly, until all of opposing is gone. It is that simple, and do not take any skill, because it does everything automated without any connection to the launching platform).

And after the Heavy Air Defence is gone, you can move to distance 2, and start to Glide Bomb them with similar warheads, that use cluster approach and are fully operational offline. Its the same function, but without a motor.

The Counter Battery Fire, you can fully automate. The radar detects and calculates the opposing fire arc, and automatically sends a Counter Battery mission without delay. The crew do not even have to inform, or only click "Confirm Fire Mission". This is especially used against so called "Shoot and Scoot" missions, as the Counter Battery Fire Mission can start even before the rounds land if the calculation procedure is fast enough. There might even be as little than 20 or 30 seconds between the opposing Fire Mission and the response in Counter Battery Fire mission in this kind of system. And of course, a normal Tank should be entirely capable of this too. Not only specialized artillery platforms.

This is how i think. Very simple. And the emphasis is to have enough of Offline Hunt and Seek Capabilities that you wont run out of them, and can overwhelm the opposing defences.


Just something to say. to warn if planning to go Full Laser Route while neglecting other type of systems. There can very much be crucial weaknesses in them, and most likely there are. If it functions well on something very basic like a Mortar Shell or normal Missile, it might not function at all against Specialized Equipment, that is designed to counter them. And then, you become very dependant on other type of platforms to protect them as they themselves, can only function against limited type of assets. Making it a very Specialized Platform with a narrow function as a whole. As the Autocannon is kind of a Fix it All kind of platform. There is not, or should not be anything in the future, that can effectively become immune to its functions. It can function well against any and each target alone. And then, you have different Munitions to specialize against certain roles.


Just as a Joke, i can envision a Future army with High Tech capabilities for a direction not to go:

1. Make all your systems Wireless, as part of one large Wireless network.

2. Stop educating your soldiers on Mechanical use of Weaponry, only educate them on Remote Operations.

3. Never use any other assets than Remote Controlled assets, that are dependant on Wireless Connectivity.

4. Never make any Offline copies of any Information, and never make an equipment, not even a normal Body Armor, that is not linked on Wireless Network.

5. Destroy all Kinetic Weaponry, and only use Laser, Energy and EW Weaponry.

6. Especially the Ballistic Defence systems, make them only use Laser.

[Isto]

To add to the last post, i wrote this:


Happened to think also another possible weaknesses for Laser Weaponry.

Is it not so, that to function properly, Laser Weapon need to be continuously burning the target for some time ?

If this is so. Then Target Saturation would become a problem, as the Laser Weapon cannot move from Target to Target fast enough to Neuralize multiple targets fast enough.

For example, there are two missiles incoming, and both of them separate to 24 (x 2 = 48) smaller Warheads before coming to range of Laser Weaponry (Cluster Munition), which all are Offline Guided (as in, not affected by Electronic Warfare or Jamming) with sophisticated enough Independent (offline) Seek and Destroy algorithm that enables each of those 48 incoming warheads to attack the Laser Weapon, or any platforms it attempts to protect.

(These Cluster Munitions function similar than SADARM or BONUS Round, but without the Parachute. Making the Target Acquisition, Lock and Launch in the fly)

How well do Laser Weaponry function against this type of threats ?

Air Burst Munitions for example, shoot in rapid succession, can track multiple targets, change direction in the air and have wide (burst) area that they affect.

There can be many weaknesses that Laser Weaponry have hard time to overcome.

For example, in situation given above. Properties that Air Burst munition loaded Autocannons offer (possibility to affect many targets on short timeframe, possibility to affect larger area with each shot) seem superior when compared to properties of Laser Weaponry (need to focus fire on a single target and stay focused on it for extended period of time).


Also. Against Missiles: Future Cruise Missiles are portrayed to carry 2 smaller missiles to shoot the incoming missiles down, that are supposed to destroy the missile. And all kind of Cluster or Swarm capabilities are spoken of. Again, a single missile, or even few of them have high cost ratio, and Air Burst Autocannons do not, and can possibly track and eliminate multiple threats at the same time, and on top of that, are able to provide other capabilities that the missiles do not (Indirect Fire, Direct Fire, Armor Piercing Munition and so on).

Autocannon is a multi use tool, that can offer support fire in all kind of situations. But how i see it, its main function is to offer support in close range Air Defence and while doing so, especially excel in multi threat environment (because of high Rate of Fire, Area of Effect and relatively low cost of Ammunition).

[DRG]

Lasers are a niche specialist tool under specific conditions. They are not going to replace chemical energy weapons ( AKA "bullets" )

[SaS TrooP]

About technologies BTW... What recently happened with AA weapons? After last update I believe, aircraft are extremely tough to be shot down by any means. It is quite ridiculous at this point and I wonder if there no problem with the formula calculating shoot down chances.

Like I am recently playing modern scenario, firing modern Stinger missiles against the old (!) Su-25 Grakh with less than 10% chances.
Also old MIG-29SMs are easily capable of outmaneuvering NASAMS system what is quite improbable, with ECMs downing NASAMS shoot down chances to less than 10%.

Choppers currently ignore MANPADS. Quite literally. ECMs make MANPADS (newest types) ineffective, and even if they hit they rarely score any damage.

This is a bit contradictory to Ukraine experiences, where MANPADS proove to be as deadly to choppers as in the past, and while aircraft must be careful with operations under any type of AA umbrella.
I recommend decreasing the EW of the aircraft to somehow bring it back to normal.

[MarkSheppard]

For example, there are two missiles incoming, and both of them separate to 24 (x 2 = 48) smaller Warheads before coming to range of Laser Weaponry)

Current UK laser weapon accuracy is being able to put 50KW onto a target about the diameter of the 1 EURO coin (25mm~) at 1 km distance.

If you have to separate your main munition into submunitions at say 2 km distance to present a credible target to the laser; the laser has inflicted virtual attrition -- because now wind is going to cause drift, unless you make the submunitions powered/controlled, which drives cost up and reduces # per missile.

So it's a vicious circle you're starting.

I think we're all going to converge on some sort of hybrid Air Defense/General Support vehicle where you have:

1.) 75-100 KW laser for general trash duties (popping drones, shooting down random stuff, destroying UXO in place etc)

2.) 70mm Guided Rocket Pod filled with 40~ 70mm HYDRA type rockets with either a laser guidance kit (cheap) or millimetric wave radar gudiance (expensive). Ukraine is already using laser guided 70mm Hydra-type rockets in airburst/proximity fuze mode against Iranian Shaheed drones.

https://greydynamics.com/vampires-in-ukraine-l3s-new-rocket-system/

Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System II (APKWS) rockets. The APKWS is a 70mm laser-guided rocket that cost US$27,500 per unit.

The reason I selected a 70mm rocket was that if we put a 40mm Case Telescoped Gun with proximity airburst rounds onto the platform, people will start using it as a general purpose support vehicle, driving it up onto the battlefield to hose down houses and buildings we don't like, which isn't optimal as stuff that shows up on the battlefield for direct fire roles gets shot at.

With 70mm laser guided rockets, you don't even have to have the system be in direct line of sight for engaging ground targets; someone could have a laser designator and guide in the rocket; allowing more "covered area" than a 40mm CTA gun.

3.) Active Radar Effectors -- Modern Digital reprogrammable AESA radars which you'll need to find and target drones anyway -- can be reprogrammed easily for electronic attack -- sending short, focused hyper intense bursts of radar energy -- to fry ("zap") relatively unshielded drones during periods of extremely bad weather where the laser range is reduced.

[MarkSheppard]

https://twitter.com/conflict_live/status/1773752802369511580

https://i.imgur.com/FWX7gWi.jpeg

First confirmed use of an Unmanned Ground Vehicle (UGV) armed with AGS-17 Grenade launcher, by the #Russian Army.

[DRG]

More work for the AMR teams...Soon there will be AMR 'bots... next it's Rock 'em Sock 'em robots

All it takes is for something new to appear for development to start to find some way to counter it

[MarkSheppard]

More work for the AMR teams...Soon there will be AMR 'bots... next it's Rock 'em Sock 'em robots

All it takes is for something new to appear for development to start to find some way to counter it

FPVs seem to have filled this role for now; due to their ubiquity.

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1774123912881754622

Both Russian UGVs were struck by FPVs from Ukraine’s 47th Mechanized Brigade.

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1775245364322250804
https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1772009281404969419

Photos of a Russian FPV strike on a Ukrainian UGV.

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1733547609921352021

Video of a Ukrainian FPV strike on a Russian UGV used to transport ammunition to the front line.

https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1775149766520779176

The 🇺🇦Ukrainian military blew up a bridge in the village of Ivanivske, Donetsk region, with a Ratel S kamikaze ground robot

[MarkSheppard]

Ground Lasers are now somewhat deployed....

https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1776231854737093043

Three DE M-SHORAD military close-in defense laser systems are currently deployed in Iraq. During the tests, it is planned to evaluate their actual ability to repel attacks from small drones, as well as to intercept mines and missiles.

In September 2023, the American Army created the first experimental military air defense unit, which was equipped with exactly 50 kW laser systems - a separate platoon as part of the 4th Battalion, 60th Air Defense Artillery Regiment at Fort Sill (4th Battalion, 60th Air Defense Artillery Regiment at Fort Sill, Oklahoma). Of the 4 vehicles in the platoon, 3 are now in Iraq.

Based on the results of the tests, a decision will be made on whether to put the complex into service or send it for revision.

https://i.imgur.com/5s2SioV.jpeg

[MarkSheppard]

Apparently the Ukrainians have formed specialized FPV/Drone units to function as "cleanup" units.

One unit on the Avdiivka front is called "SHADOW" and what they do is they wait until a Russian assault has been shattered; then start flying drones equipped with incendiary devices around, looking for abandoned/knocked out Russian vehicles and then dropping said incendiaries down open hatches, etc.

Once a good fire is burning, move on to the next target; as the protective quality of the armour is destroyed by sustained fires.

[DRG]

It also eliminates the possibility of a merely damaged vehicle being recovered and repaired by both sides

[MarkSheppard]

New wrinkle in the ongoing hyper-acceleration of drone/EW warfare.

The Russians have started to put jammers onto unmanned ground vehicles and drive them onto Ukrainian positions during the night to knock out comms/whatnot before an attack.

Telegram Link Below:
https://t.me/yigal_levin/65668

[DRG]

That is a small thing to detect at night

[whdonnelly]

We walked around Kabul with personal jammers on our gear. Glad that it never had a real test.

[MarkSheppard]

From another forum -- a summary of this youtube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/@valgear5525

He's an active duty Ukrainian soldier who posts reviews of both NATO and Soviet equipment (rifles, grenades, flares, tourniquets, etc.). Recently, he posted an exclusive video to his Patreon that goes in-depth regarding drones. I'm not a paying member, but someone else on another forum did the leg work and summarized the key points. This is going to be a really long post, but it's very interesting.

FPV drone types (warheads):

. Explosive/Fragmentation - Straightforward, plastic explosive filler with fragmentation sleeve. Used for exposed personnel.

. HEAT - Most commonly RPG-7 Warheads

. Penetration Core - Here I think he was referring to an explosively formed penetrator (EFP). Opposed to HEAT, an EFP have a much thicker hemispherical copper lining with HE behind it. The benefit of an EFP is that the penetrator forms much further away (up to 20m) from the detonation, allowing penetration from a distance and through cope cages. Valgear states that these "Penetration Core" warheads are slowly replacing HEAT on the battlefield.

. Thermobaric - Mini fuel/air bombs which are used against dugouts and other entrenched positions

. Proximity Fuse - Valgear states that UA is slowly trying to replace contact fuses with proximity fuses with Claymore warheads, which detonate via a command from the drone operator. Valgear didn't say why, but I believe this is due to the rise of penetration core drones as well as better fragmentation zone.

FPV Drone Defensive Tactics - Interesting note, Valgear states that UA is basing its infantry drone defense tactics at least in part off of RU's reports and experience.

. First line of defense - Always listen for FPV drone motors. Always have a team member looking up and with active ear protection on max.

. Second line of defense - Speed. Of course, it's harder to hit a moving target.

. Third Line of defense - Smoke. Smoke is very effective at obscuring your position. If you are moving and obscured, you are much harder to hit. Russians are using massive smoke screens, kilometers wide to obscure movement of men and vehicles. It does clearly signal an attack, but with spotting drones so prevalent, it's better to obscure the attack than to attempt surprise.

. Forth line of defense - SHOOT! As soon as you see the drone, shoot at it. This was originally a Russian doctrine, but UAF is starting to adopt it as well. Reports are stating that this tactic is actually very effective. This is a pretty interesting example of selection bias in the footage we see. Russians and Ukrainians aren't posting videos of drones getting shot down, but it seems (at least based on this guy's reporting) this is actually a viable defense. Shooting at it may shoot down a drone, but it also forces the operator into evasive action and can result in poor targeting. This is also why proximity fuses are becoming more popular, because the operator can instantly detonate over the personnel as opposed to maneuvering for a good hit.

. When in a forest, hug a tree. When in a building, close all doors and windows, use curtains if glass is shattered (curtains can detonate fuse).

In general, if you get spotted, be active and aggressive with your defense. Cowering in place will only result in certain death.

EW (Electronic Warfare)

. Any EW is better than none. Even if operating on the wrong frequencies, EW can interfere with an operator at short ranges. Note: Another Ukrainian soldier on the forum I'm copying and pasting this from disagreed, stating, "Completely wrong. If you do not match the operating range of the signal, the effectiveness of your EW emitter is zero (0). Short range interference is due to radio blocking of the signal when losing line of sight."

. UA has some EW capabilities (vehicle mounts and backpack EW).

. Russians have gotten much better at EW in quantity and quality. They now have EW repeaters that create a frequency umbrella around their trenches.

. "Radio Horizon" - This is essentially the range of EW and FPV frequencies in consideration of Earth curvature and obstacles. Place antennas high on trees and buildings. The UAF is now placing repeaters on heavy drones.

Drone Drop Munitions

. Usually use DJI Mavic series drones.

. Up to Baba Yaga - Heavy drone that drops mines, apparently it’s a repurposed agricultural drone.

. Valgear states that drone drops are an even greater threat than FPV. They have better resolution, and can acquire targets better. They have higher munition capacity. Due to the altitudes they are operating in, they are very difficult to hear and see.

. RU is using drone drop attacks at a similar frequency to UA.

. Autell Drones are more dangerous than DJI, because they are more resistant to EW than DJI and can operate at night.

Drone Drop Defensive Tactics

. Basically the same as FPV with a few differences. When digging a trench and dugout, dig the trench deeper than the dugout. This way a drone drop grenade will not roll into the dugout.

Drone Surveillance

. American doctrine states that when you encounter indirect fire, you should push in the direction of that fire (note: this isn't the case, according to people on the original forum). In the context of Ukraine, and drone surveillance, this is a completely outdated tactic. On the modern battlefield, artillery zeros in within minutes.

. If you encounter indirect fire, take cover immediately.

. You will get one to three accurate shots on your position, but if your cover is good, chances are you will survive.

. After you have taken fire, wait in cover for 30min to an hour (longer the better) for the spotting drone to run out of battery and return to base.

. "Don’t **** around with artillery under any condition, ever!"

. Artillery is the number one killer in Ukraine.

. Russians will double tap you if you do not wait long enough.

Fixed Wing Drones

. Orlan - 10- Surveillance drone and designator. Typically designates for guided cluster munitions, less often Lancets.

. Zala - Another surveillance drone and designator. Typically designates for Lancets (Zala and Lancet are built by the same company).

. Lancets (First Generation) - Used a general penetration warhead, similar to an upscaled DPCIM submunition.

. Lancets (Second Generation) - Uses a penetration core (EFP) to penetrate past netting and cover.

. These fixed wing drones are used almost entirely to identify and eliminate high value targets: artillery, tanks, etc. Infantry generally doesn't have to worry about them.

[MarkSheppard]

https://www.thedefensepost.com/2024/04/16/japan-unmanned-ground-vehicles/

Japan has tapped Milrem Robotics to supply three THeMIS unmanned ground vehicles (UGVs) for supply transportation and intelligence missions.

The UGVs will be equipped with the Estonian company’s Intelligent Functions Kit (MIFIK), allowing them to take on- and off-road operations independently.

MIFIK also lets THeMIS’ operators plan missions ahead by utilizing the systems’ waypoint navigation technology to set en-route vehicle movements.

Milrem Robotics CEO Kuldar Väärsi said the contract underlines the Japan Ground Self-Defense Forces’ goal of limiting human losses.

“We are honoured that the Japanese Ground Self-Defense Forces has selected us to support them in increasing the combat effectiveness of their ground forces through advanced robotics and achieving their capability goals,” he shared.

The deal is part of the Japan Ministry of Defense’s Rapid Acquisition Program, which aims to accelerate the deployment of Tokyo’s new defense capabilities.

[MarkSheppard]

AFU now deploying night hunter drones with 3d printed "shhhhh" acoustically silent props.

https://twitter.com/ConnieLingus123/status/1784570453094178936

https://twitter.com/l33veal/status/1784949061214499044

toroidal propellers, keeps the tips from breaking the sound barrier

Still uses active infrared from the looks of that video (i.e. large LED IR illuminator), so shows up like a floodlight to anyone who has actual night vision gear; but for the average mobik, it's whispering death.

[DRG]

The toroidal propellers brings new meaning to "death from above"

https://www.ll.mit.edu/sites/default/files/other/doc/2022-09/TVO_Technology_Highlight_41_Toroidal_Propeller.pdf

[DRG]

Turtle tank info

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtHJFTgkvIw

[scorpio_rocks]

Turtle tank info

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtHJFTgkvIw


"assault garage" :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[MarkSheppard]

I've seen it suggested that "turtle tanks" are an attempted attempt to make something useful out of a broken MBT or IFV -- one in which the main gun is broken, the turret is broken, etc by plating them over with anti-drone sheds and using them as improvized APCs.

[DRG]

One possibility for sure


This is good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97V3YEdPIrA

Airburst rounds are interesting and we are in the early stages of seeing if we can build them into the game....NO promises though, too soon to say

[Dion]

Excellent video! A+

[MarkSheppard]

https://x.com/moklasen/status/1803383809418666249

Russian drone drop on a PTM-3 mine, which was remotely dropped by an AFU drone for remote mining of roads

We're now using drones to clear minefields laid by drones.

[MarkSheppard]

Russians are now testing "high speed" FPV drones capable of 150-250 MPH dive speeds.

The current generation of FPV drones are about 65-85 MPH dive speeds; making it possible to shoot them down with shotguns held by troops; this new generation of FPV drones will be too fast for the average person to plausibly shoot back at.

[MarkSheppard]

huge baba yaga drones used by the AFU now have laser guided ordnance. :shock:

https://x.com/GrandpaRoy2/status/1819424956826165467

[Dion]

What's gonna happen? Will drones make war obsolete, or will they make countries with a super high population become invincible, because a large workforce coupled with high tech will provide both, quantity and quality, or will they provide third world countries a means to become 1st class militaries? IMHO - World Wars may become obsolete, but that's what they said about WWI and look what happened. Though, they didn't have jets or missiles back then (or drones). My guess, paranoia will be so great that it will trigger a WWIII scenario, but then again, it might make everyone to scared to start anything. I guess only time will tell for sure.

[whdonnelly]

One possibility is that jammers capable of frying most guidance systems will be stationed in large numbers near the battle area. lots of implication for all battlefield electronics.

[MarkSheppard]

Looks like we can recycle large portions of WW2 maps (with appropriate road+town upgrades) now that the battle has moved into Kursk. :shock:

[DRG]

Putin invaded Ukraine and declared it "justified". Ukraine does the same to Russia and that's a “major provocation”.

I guess it would be if you thought you could do whatever you wanted to your neighbors but you were "special"

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-keeps-up-air-attacks-russias-kursk-regional-governor-says-2024-08-07/

[Masters]

Post deleted for exclusively political content.

DO NOT DO THIS AGAIN

If you want to post that we are missing units ....go ahead. Otherwise, your account will be terminated

[retiredgysgt]

EDITED BY DRG


See above. You were correct in your observation but the post you reacted to should not have been made for you to respond to it and that is why it and your response and the quote of the original message has been removed

[MarkSheppard]

Sooooo lots of new changes in drones

https://x.com/GrandpaRoy2/status/1831552322855694653

Ukrainian drones now have flamethrowers; using some sort of thermite/incendiary mixture that's ignited and drops downwards. Videos of this have been dropping for the last few days.

https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/1831533554502668788

Another Ukrainian drone group mounted an AK-74 to their drone and used it for strafing runs.

[DRG]

If a use can be imagined with existing technology, it can be built

That's a LOT of fuel being carried by the Dragons breath drones

[Dion]

It's official, dragons do indeed walk the earth again. Can't wait for my favorite military platform the USS Zillagod (that's Godzilla spelled differently to protect the innocent, the greatest warship ever built).

[DRG]

There is a video claiming Russia is testing these drones

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBgcTJ15-w0


The Russian Army is currently testing Ukraine's "Dragon's Breath" FPV drones, which are designed to deploy thermite incendiary munitions. These munitions can reach temperatures exceeding 2,400 degrees Celsius and typically consist of iron oxide and aluminum powders. Known for their extreme heat capabilities, these drones are used by Ukrainian forces to inflict severe damage on Russian equipment. The testing of these drones by Russia highlights the evolving tactics in the Ukraine conflict, with both sides increasingly relying on advanced drone warfare. The use of thermite munitions introduces a new dimension to the military operations.

So it's powder not liquid fuel which would be lighter

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2024/07/12/why-thermite-is-drone-bombers-new-favorite-weapon/



Military specialists will recognize the type of munition. There is no explosion, and no dense white smoke as there is from phosphorus incendiaries. The other tell-tale sign is that it burns hot enough to go through metal. This is thermite.

Usually made of a mixture of powdered iron oxide (rust) and aluminum, burning thermite is a popular high school science demonstration. It burns because the oxygen in the rust is more attracted to aluminum than iron, so it does not need external oxygen and will burn underwater.

[whdonnelly]

Send in the sky robots to drop obscurants, provide jamming, fire weapons, and conduct multispectrum surveillance in one mission.

https://www.defense-aerospace.com/us-army-tests-eaglet-low-cost-drone-deployed-by-gray-eagle-uav/

[MarkSheppard]

https://x.com/Archer83Able/status/1833531158120042956

The testing of a Ukrainian FPV drone with attached Soviet-made RPG-22 portable rocket launcher.

==========================================

https://x.com/sambendett/status/1795492346987249962

https://x.com/JohnH105/status/1836817022006743063

Ukraine has now operationalized a UGV "FURY" with a RPK as it's primary weapon, it seems.

"A Ukrainian UGV from the 8th SSO Regiment's 1st Detachment avoiding anti-tank mines and firing at a Russian position on the eastern outskirts of Volfino, Kursk Oblast (51.25818, 34.48546), which Ukrainian troops also targeted with mortar & FPV strikes. The UGV survives multiple RPG & FPV drone strikes yet reportedly survived."

[DRG]

[QUOTE=MarkSheppard;856833]https://x.com/Archer83Able/status/1833531158120042956

The testing of a Ukrainian FPV drone with attached Soviet-made RPG-22 portable rocket launcher.

Seeing it actually launch and how it reacts to the backblast would have been nice

[DRG]

If anyone finds the Lyut's speed let me know

[MarkSheppard]

You could calculate it from footage of it online:

https://x.com/NOELreports/status/1836797647736176962

At 0:27 in that video you see it moving through a minefield of AT mines -- you could estimate it's speed by seeing how long it takes to pass each AT mine? :confused:

[DRG]

I gave it 8 until I get a source that gives the info. I think 24kph a bit optimistic but it's a start

[MarkSheppard]

https://the300.mt.co.kr/newsView.html?no=2024101717462839346&MRO_P

In Korean (Translated to English via Google)

It shows that at least one nation is THINKIHNG (note - THINKING) and has done planning on what would happen if battalion level mortars got replaced with expendable UAVs.

[South Korea]

It has been confirmed that the Army has virtually finalized a plan to convert aging 60mm and 81mm (caliber) mortars operated by battalion-level units and below into attack drones. In the Army infantry units, 60mm mortars are the main force operated by the weapons company, and 81mm mortars are operated by the heavy weapons company.

Army Chief of Staff Park Ahn-soo (General) announced this during the National Assembly Defense Committee’s state audit of the Army Headquarters held in Gyeryongdae, South Chungcheong Province on the 17th, saying, “We are currently planning an operation to (convert) mortars into drones.” Park said,

“The Army has created a future military structure, and a plan to convert the heavy weapons company’s 60mm and 81mm mortars into drones has been created,” and “Since we don’t have enough power right now, it’s still the heavy weapons company, but once we secure power, we will be able to change the function right away.”

Park's remarks came during the questioning of Democratic Party of Korea lawmaker Ahn Gyu-baek that day. Ahn suggested, "Our military is currently operating 81mm mortars as their main force in the case of firearms platoons and heavy weapons companies," and "How about reorganizing them into 'drone firearms companies' using this organization as is?"

The Army has completed the design to reorganize the current firearms companies and heavy weapons companies into the so-called 'dronebot (drone/robot) companies.' Using drones and robots instead of mortars is expected to significantly enhance the mobility of our military.

The effective range of these mortars is about 2-3km, but the 60mm weighs about 20kg and the 81mm weighs over 40kg. The Army explains that instead of infantry units running around carrying mortars, attack drones can strike at longer distances with precision.

Since drones require less manpower than mortars, they are also expected to be a solution to the problem of decreasing troop resources due to changes in population structure. The Army plans to complete a manned-unmanned composite combat system by deploying drones and robots to battalion-level units and below, and also organize new units in charge of space information, cyber, electromagnetic, and cognitive warfare.

육군이 대대급 이하 부대에서 운용하는 60㎜·81㎜(구경) 박격포 가운데 노후화된 화기를 공격용 드론으로 바꾸는 방안을 사실상 확정한 것으로 확인됐다. 육군 보병 부대에서 60㎜ 박격포는 화기 중대, 81㎜ 박격포는 중화기 중대에서 운용하는 주요 전력이다.

박안수 육군참모총장(대장)은 17일 충남 계룡대에서 열린 육군본부에 대한 국회 국방위원회 국정감사를 통해 "박격포를 드론으로 (전환)하는 운영을 현재 구상 중"이라며 이같이 밝혔다.

박 총장은 "육군이 미래 군 구조를 만들었는데 중화기 중대의 60㎜·81㎜ 박격포를 드론으로 바꾸는 것이 만들어져 있다"며 "지금 전력이 안 되니깐 아직 중화기 중대인데 전력이 확보되면 바로 기능을 바꿀 수 있을 것"이라고 말했다.

박 총장의 발언은 이날 안규백 더불어민주당 의원 질의 과정에서 나왔다. 안 의원은 "우리 군이 현재 화기 소대와 중화기 중대의 경우 81㎜ 박격포를 주요 전력으로 운영하고 있다"며 "이 편제를 그대로 활용해 '드론 화기 중대'로 재편하는 것이 어떠냐"고 제안했다.

육군은 현재 화기 중대와 중화기 중대를 가칭 '드론봇(드론·로봇) 중대'로 재편하는 설계를 완료했다. 박격포 대신 드론과 로봇을 활용하면 우리 군의 기동성 등이 한층 강화될 것으로 보인다.

이들 박격포의 유효 사거리는 약 2~3㎞이지만 무게는 60㎜가 약 20㎏이고 81㎜는 40㎏이 넘는다. 보병부대가 박격포를 들고 달리는 대신 공격용 드론이 더 먼 거리를 정밀 타격할 수 있다는 게 육군의 설명이다.

드론은 박격포보다 운용인력이 덜 필요한 만큼 인구구조 변화에 따른 병력자원 감소 문제 해법도 될 수 있을 전망이다. 육군은 대대급 이하 부대에 드론·로봇 등을 투입해 유무인 복합전투체계를 완성하고 우주정보와 사이버·전자기·인지전 담당부대도 새로 편성할 예정이다.

[MarkSheppard]

https://x.com/sambendett/status/1860102231191851190

Another Russian combat UGV somewhere at the front.

https://x.com/sambendett/status/1859957338834379240

Russian "Krot" (Mole) tactical UGV delivering explosives at the front.

https://x.com/sambendett/status/1858927202022134013

Russia's PGU-15 universal tracked platform developed by the DST-Ural enterprise.

[DRG]

Those vids make me happy there is a mute button.......

[DRG]

ONe comment from a` post about these things
The UGVs are tele-operated with human in-the-loop operators. The tele-ops range is no longer than 50 meters. The UGVs are not autonomous as they do not (have) radar and LiDAR sensors. Long story short - very limited effectiveness

IF that 50 m radio range is accurate, then I agree they have minimal effectiveness and very "iffy" worth in the game

[Aquila]

IF that 50 m radio range is accurate
Not so simple. Different connection methods, circumstances, repeater availability etc. UGVs with fiber optics spools can have a range of several km.

UGVs are still scarce and mostly utilized in special roles: Casevac, mine deploy/clear, recon by "force", barricaded enemies(like SWAT units), suicide with bigger payload than airborne against fortifications etc.

Airborne obervation/forward observer and suicide/bombers are still the dominant drone type and one of the biggest threats to any unit of maneuver/action.

[MarkSheppard]

https://x.com/mason_8718/status/1865718327009829024?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

South Korea already began deploying the Laser Based Anti-Aircraft Weapon Block-I to frontline units and high buildings in the capital Seoul in December.

A twin-barreled 40mm intelligent unmanned air defense cannon is also planned to be deployed in frontline units.

However, it is said that the deployment process of this laser weapon in the metropolitan area may be slightly delayed.

Block-II is a mobile version that uses the chassis of the K239 MRLS, and Block-III is being developed as a Navy and Air Force version.

LAMD and LAMD-II are also expected to deploy along with the 'intelligent 40mm air defense system'

This is what Block I looks liek: a shipping container with a laser peeking out from it:

https://i.imgur.com/AXLS4he.jpeg

Block II is a hard shelter on a truck with laser:

https://i.imgur.com/FMJY4Lb.jpeg

====================================

Meanwhile in China...

BIG NOTE: The Chinese Military Industrial Complex can crank out prototypes fast and at a rapid clip; but whether they're actually accepted by the PLA(N) is another matter.

But it shows what they're thinking of "near term" for the next 5 years.

====================================

https://x.com/jesusfroman/status/1865681977120108661

AVIC's displayed the Laser Arrow-11E multi-mode Electro-Optical Countermeasure System, the Laser Arrow-21A/B vehicle-mounted laser anti-UAV system & the Laser Arrow-24 unmanned intelligent laser guard system in Zhuhai Airshow 2024.

https://i.imgur.com/H6SFboy.jpeg

Laser Arrow-11E integrates 5 interference bands:visible light,near IR,mid-IR,long-wave IR&millimeter wave.Through laser interference, damage or decoy,it makes precision-guided weapons&UAV lose their sight&guidance. Suitable for fixed locations terminal defense&moving targets

https://i.imgur.com/6X5Pdd9.jpeg

Laser Arrow-21A/B vehicle-mounted laser anti-UAV system uses high-energy lasers to control UAV targets. It can detect day&night targets while moving. The radar detection, tracking & aiming range is >8km, & the killing distance is 5km.

https://i.imgur.com/NfJQfoL.jpeg

Laser Arrow-24 A/B unmanned intelligent laser guard system can performe unmanned intelligent patrols in complex environments such as cities, detect & intercept low-altitude targets.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Concerning the Ukrainian "FURY" haven't found anything about speed yet.

However, I've found a battlefield limitation maybe you're not aware of or I noticed was posted. Generally, the following are all saying the same thing...
"This has reduced the UGV’s operational costs, while still achieving a direct line-of-sight communication range of up to 2 kilometers (1.2 miles).

Trials revealed that the mini-tank can maintain effective communication at approximately 700 meters (2,296 feet) in environments with natural and man-made obstructions.

Additionally, the machine gun fitted into the unmanned platform is equipped with targeting cameras and can hit enemies up to 800 meters (2,624 feet) away."

A couple of the others here also say it can carry 550 rounds of 7.62mm.

Also, it's venerable to AP rounds and depending on its thickness a standard NATO (Not FMJ or AP round.) 7.62mm can penetrate 7mm RHA at 300 meters. Not what we carried.

.50 BMG AP can penetrate 1 inch RHA at 200 meters.

Those values are from the ammo used ~10 years ago. They are better now, and a Barret .50 (Or similar.) current AP round or two should be enough to take it out.

It seems though the Ukrainians are using them to distract a position while the actual attack is coming from another direction/sector.
https://interestingengineering.com/military/ukraine-fury-ground-drone-machine-gun
https://armyrecognition.com/news/army-news/2024/ukraine-launches-lyut-a-new-unmanned-ground-vehicle#google_vignette
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/meet-lyut-2-0-robot-144738947.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYmluZy5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADfBqjvkCHx_6UCeqfEPWVI_tKU9 kyWjdnhQRvXllPoZn64JSOtUWQ_uxlA6lT94OVIGhwVZCyaM-AMBs8LpYp1LRv1JaCAVg5ZsBtSN4MI9ENhoqkAkg1IqSKyCkgT WaSzFlyAlIAzlYlvnJgsTQR5XN_9ESggacX6NPutdQIXz

I read the claim from ref. 1 of the attack those drones take out tanks but not this? :dk:

The last ref. seems to dispute the claim of the first...
"The platform is designed with 4th-class protection armour, offering a degree of resilience against standard bullets. "

Seems they also have a Drone by the same name as well. Speed is 120Km/H.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[MarkSheppard]

Not a technology/tactics/etc related post -- but Syria has a new flag apparently:

https://x.com/wartranslated/status/1866035693383770408

The Russian agency RIA reports that a new flag of Syria has already been raised on the building of the Syrian Embassy in Moscow.

[DRG]

Concerning the Ukrainian "FURY" haven't found anything about speed yet.:

I have it set up as a "light tank" at the same speed as normal infantry ( 6) and it is included with a special infantry unit that also has a drone option which makes it an "interesting" unit
Armour is 1 all around so it's a MG unit but with enough armour that small arms will not harm it

[DRG]

Not a technology/tactics/etc related post -- but Syria has a new flag apparently:

https://x.com/wartranslated/status/1866035693383770408

The Russian agency RIA reports that a new flag of Syria has already been raised on the building of the Syrian Embassy in Moscow.


Yep, we already have the change made but exactly which flag will be chosen is not clear. Right now they are back to the one from the first ten years of the game which is the one shown in that photo and others BUT that might change..... maybe

So that "new flag of Syria" is not new at all It's the one used before the Baathists took over

Set up a battle with Syria between 1948 and March 1958 and you will see the "new" flag

[MarkSheppard]

https://x.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1867667442933412182?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

"Roadrunner has been operationally deployed for Combat Evaluation since January 2024 and Pulsar has been operationally deployed in multiple regions since August 2023" ~ Anduril

https://www.anduril.com/roadrunner/

Roadrunner is a reusable, vertical take-off and landing (VTOL), operator-supervised Autonomous Air Vehicle (AAV) with twin turbojet engines and modular payload configurations that can support a variety of missions.

Roadrunner-M is a high-explosive interceptor variant of Roadrunner built for ground-based air defense that can rapidly launch, identify, intercept, and destroy a wide variety of aerial threats — or be safely recovered and relaunched at near-zero cost.

Roadrunner-M is essentially a reusable MANPAD. :shock: You can launch it at an unknown threat, and if it misses or if the threat is identified as a friendly, it can be recovered for a second mission.

Pulsar is a modular software defined EW system that can be quickly attached to vehicles as needed.

[DRG]

THAT is one very cool "toy"


They have many others under development as well ----6 air systems and two underwater vehicles

https://www.anduril.com/


,,,,and what do you get down the road when you make hunter/killer drones smarter and more efficient?

https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/marketplace/presentation_assets/003/491/189/large/file.jpg?1708691194
:D

[MarkSheppard]

A lot of meaty updates in this post:

================================================== ==================

https://x.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1868675676129349963

🇺🇦 Ukraine already has a laser weapon "Trident", - Commander of Unmanned Systems Forces of Sukharevskiy

"Today, we can shoot down Russian planes with this laser at an altitude of over 2 km. A project is also being developed to use a "drone-mother" with two FPVs."

I wonder where it is now...

================================================== ==================

https://x.com/Ch_Ru_GER/status/1868667960153567309

The #PLA is developing concepts for the teaming of #UAS & #Helicopters (like Z-19, Z-10 & Z-21) here within PLAGF Aviation Brigades. Diagrams from an academic paper on collaborative & cooperative capabilities between armed helicopters & #UAS (MALE/HALE) in combat posted on Weibo.

================================================== ==================

https://x.com/GrandpaRoy2/status/1868709434945642586

Russia has published a directory of Ukrainian FPV tactics with diagrams, and suggested countermeasures.

The descriptions are basic, but the 19 separate listings are a reminder of how flexible and valuable the FPV system has become.

Source of the images are:

https://t.me/VictoryDrones/34084

Anyway...

https://i.imgur.com/4z3MGmS.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/x86R783.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/bpRIXGl.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/sr0fsiK.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/WmfwZXA.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/TBakhDz.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/UtGzzZ6.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/33PeKum.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/3oN5wFc.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/rtBhxsA.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/nTOYgRV.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/VXmrwzW.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/CthEHf1.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/sITXyIP.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/VXr8Th2.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/CCFy5mE.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/RvU86ud.jpeg

================================================== ==================

https://x.com/wartranslated/status/1868589519328391304

At the start of December, Ukraine's 13th National Guard Brigade, "Khartia," carried out its first fully robotic operation in the Kharkiv sector, employing an unprecedented number of robotic and unmanned systems. The operation, designed to set conditions for further advancements, utilized ground-based robots (including mining, demining, and kamikaze drones, as well as mobile turrets) and various UAVs (heavy bombers, observation drones, and FPVs).

================================================== ==================

The first semi-production High Power Microwave (HPM) weapons by Epirus -- essentially rebadged radars --- have been delivered and tested by the US Army.

Results of the Leonidas testing:

https://i.imgur.com/qTLqdAU.jpeg

https://x.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1868300684711313484

"They [US Army - Cap & limitation tests] tried to get as many drones as they could that we would see overseas. They wanted to get drones that might have been hardened..against EM emissions.We had zero targets that we did not take down. We were 100% effective"~Andy Lowery, #Epirus

...

"We invested ahead and delivered 4 systems in 15 months. You talked about reaching 'out to miles'. Yes, absolutely,we can do that. On our own money, we are building systems we call 'add a zero' to our baseline..We're talking 10 km..that type of range" ~Andy Lowery, #Epirus #GaN

[MarkSheppard]

https://x.com/RALee85/status/1869241376468353117

Madyar says that the effectiveness of FPVs in Ukrainian and Russian units is between 20-40%. This is when an FPV hits a target, the munition detonates, and the strike is recorded/confirmed.

Some commentary from another forum talking about the war:

The claimed success rate has doubled or quadrupled over 2023, when they were talking around 10%, so countermeasures are implied to be losing ground. If fiber optic control becomes standard and/or autonomous guidance becomes commonplace the success/confirmation rate could conceivably double in 2025 over 2024 (game changing countermeasures in 2025 seem less likely, but who knows).

[MarkSheppard]

https://x.com/GrandpaRoy2/status/1879221890335879330

Rows of Ukrainian “Ratel S” UGVs are ready for frontline service.

Context:

Back in April 2024:

https://x.com/GrandpaRoy2/status/1779221824150401336

Ukrainian UGVs (Unmanned Ground Vehicle) have moved from experimental prototypes to production.

These are the Ratel S, much in demand at the front, used for laying anti-tank mines or as a kamikaze.

[DRG]

https://en.defence-ua.com/analysis/north_korean_170mm_koksan_self_propelled_guns_reac h_russia_ukraine_war_frontline_video-13119.html

[MarkSheppard]

https://x.com/360_Secure/status/1888368240218476940

If you watched Avdiivka assaults when UAF were running out of US 155mm shells, drones as only defense often took up to 10 hits to stop a tank, 3-5 on an IFV. Ladas [unprotected cars] it's pretty much one and you're done.

Rough values on FPV drones vs modern vehicles.

It does seem "correct" since many FPV drones are carrying modified RPG warheads, etc and they're not always pointed in the optimal direction or orientation as a warhead from an ATGM with a $10K guidance system would be...

[DRG]

Drones with RPG warheads will be in the V18 Ukraine OOB and the V18 Russian Extension OOB has a KUB-2

[MarkSheppard]

Lithuania has formally left the Cluster Munitions treaty:

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20250306-lithuania-quits-cluster-bomb-ban-treaty-despite-outrage

The Lithuanian parliament voted to leave the cluster munitions convention last July, but the country had to wait six months after submitting exit documents to the UN for the decision to take full effect.

Lithuania -- a member of both the EU and NATO -- is the first country to leave the convention, which was adopted in 2008, and the first European Union country to leave a multilateral arms regulation agreement.

Poland is making noises about withdrawing from the mine treaty + cluster munitions treaty:

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/48475

Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said on Friday he backed withdrawing his NATO country from a landmark treaty prohibiting the use of anti-personnel landmines as he briefed the parliament on Poland’s security.

Designed to be buried or hidden on the ground, anti-personnel mines often mutilate victims who are not immediately killed, with aid groups decrying their long-term impact on civilians.

The Anti-Personnel Landmines Convention, also known as the Ottawa Convention, prohibits the use, stockpiling, production and transfer of landmines.

“I will recommend a positive opinion for Poland to withdraw from the Ottawa Convention and possibly from the Dublin Convention,” Tusk told lawmakers, clarifying he was referring to treaties on “anti-personnel mines and cluster munitions.”

[Felix Nephthys]

I for one say good for Lithuania and Poland.

[MarkSheppard]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2025/04/03/mine-craft-ukrainian-drones-add-a-new-dimension-to-mine-warfare/

https://imageio.forbes.com/specials-images/imageserve/67ee56cbef96916963d4568f/Mines-on-roadsZ/960x0.jpg

Russian map showing locations of mines laid by drones on logistics routes around Krynky
RUSSIAN TELEGRAM VIA ROY

:eek:

[Dion]

Love it, designing patterns to confuse your opponent is one of the best parts of playing these games in my opinion. Reminds me of designing dungeons for D&D, designed like a maze, with the intention of finding no way out.

On a serious note, if that war is ever concluded, the civians are going to have to get used living in despair until those fields are cleared. Glad I don't live there.

[MarkSheppard]

One of the things that jumped out for me is that the traditional model of mine deployment in Steel Panthers (mines only being able to be bought as the defender in an assault/defend game) may no longer work; due to drone-laid mines making it very easy to deploy mines overnight -- granted, these drone laid mines would be very easy to see -- literally on the road surface(s), but there would be so many of them; achieving the objective of slowing down the enemy as they're forced to stop and begin mine-clearing.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, that we have to deal with attack drones now, and it is what it is, to possibly have mine laying drones which theoretically you can have untold number of I would believe would change the game's dynamic and the game times being extended.

Baseball a couple of years ago switched to the 30 Second "pitch clock" that has pretty much across the board shorted the game by at least 40 minutes to an hour+ and drove up viewership and improved attendance at the stadiums after slumping in both categories for a few years this was a major plus for the game.

I again would RESPECTFULLY suggest such a move would be like Baseball saying "screw" the fans and who needs television viewership (Which for MLB would equate to a significant loss in profits due to loss in advertising revenue that especially the "poorer" teams rely on from the revenue sharing practices of the MLB.) if they "turned the clock back" so to speak.

It's the best analogy I could come up with "on the fly" in relationship of its significance to that game.

My typical turn count based on our current map size etc. etc. is 25 to 35 turns per game on average over the same number of battles in my typical Campaign.

My buy under such circumstances would be to buy these wonderful drones, mine laying artillery a handful of tanks with some infantry and some SPAA.

My tactics would be to mine the Hell out of the approaches and my flags. My mobile units would be in "safe zones" to respond to any breach or if opportunity allows capture what flags I can AFTER the AI HAS BLOODIED ITSELF or SIMPLY RUN OUT OF TIME.

WE MUST NOT FORGET (2) things about the AI on the ATTACK or MEETING ENGAGEMENT it has one role CAPTURE AND CAPTURE MORE.

I have seen such as a single ATGW team "pop up" and start to capture flags when the AI hardly had a unit left on the map.

When the AI is DEFENDING I've NEVER ONE TIME seen where I've haven't had to clear some fairly or more dense minefields.

It's very SLOW and can be VERY COSTLY and this in OVER 20 YEARS OF PLAYING against the AI.

Been playing this game from its ORIGIN TO ITS PRESENT PRESENTAION and it has always been about TACTICAL MANUVER.

What I feel at this moment is that mine laying drones would put us at a "CROSSROADS" better defined as VERY LOOSLY WWI or more to the point the Ukraine potentially.

I didn't invest all my time and some money to spend half a battle or more to clearing minefields.

Again, that is exactly what's happening in the Ukraine to a large extent.

You're not hearing so much about battles as you are about Drones I.E. this weekend's Drone attack on Kiev.

There is always a Cost and with that there's always a "Cause and Affect" or "Unintended Consequences" that come into play :rolleyes:.

And if nothing I posted has any effect on your point of view, take a few moments and look at that Russian map again Mark posted (164) above.

I did and that's why this was posted. My game/RL reaction was OMG what a nightmare that would be.

Was to post this a 3 hours ago however, I never miss CINCLANTHOMEs Pot Roast and a little after dinner chat on my off days!! ;)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[zovs66]

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT...
Regards,
Pat
:capt:

I had to ask ChatGPT to summarize what you are trying to say, the AI said your saying:

The poster is expressing concern that adding mine-laying drones to a wargame would drastically slow down gameplay, much like real-world conflicts (e.g., Ukraine) where mines and drones have made battles more about attrition and slow progress than maneuver warfare. They compare it to Major League Baseball's pitch clock, which shortened games and improved engagement—implying the opposite effect would happen if mine-laying drones were added to the game.

They explain their fear that players (especially the AI) would focus on flooding the map with mines, leading to longer, slower, more tedious games with less tactical flexibility. This could lead to frustration and potentially drive players away from the game.

Their main point: while modern warfare includes drones and mines, bringing that fully into the game could hurt the gameplay experience by shifting it from fast-paced tactical maneuvering to slow, defensive attrition warfare—which they feel would be a bad design decision.

[lansoar]

A good post that highlights the dangers of knee jerk reactions and/or, ideas that seem great on paper...but..... When you have a game that allows the level of detail control like SP, you have to take a critical factor into account, at least this is my opinion based on my time as a developer.

"Players find a way."

a rule or function that might be blasé on surface value can exponentially result in a "gaming the system" situation. Example? empty panzer corps in Eastern front games. War in the Pacific.....using PBY's or subs to "invade" undefended bases....take them and then withdrawal by the same means when your opponent responds. It's maddening....and it is exponentially tied to the level of detail control the player has. I love GG games but a price of them is that GOD level command allows for so much potential abuse.

[MarkSheppard]

https://x.com/Osint613/status/1927750905958371449

BREAKING: Censorship lifted — Israel releases footage of the “Keren Or” laser system intercepting a drone during the war. The system successfully downed dozens of drones throughout the conflict.

There's also footage of the lasers bringing down drones on other twitter xposts.

I've also heard rumors that the Russians have been using lasers as well to deal with Ukrainian UAS attacking Moscow area, etc.

[MarkSheppard]

More details on the Israeli Lasers:

https://x.com/sentdefender/status/1927975238349836451

The Israel Defense Force and Defense Ministry have revealed that a low-powered prototype variant of the “Iron Beam” Laser-Weapon Air Defense System has been in active service with the military since at least 2024.

The system was reportedly deployed on the border between Israel and Lebanon at the height of last year’s fighting between Israel and Hezbollah, being used to successfully intercept a number of one-way attack drones launched by Hezbollah against communities in Northern Israel, with each interception only costing between $1-5, compared to the thousands for each shot of the Iron Dome.

Footage of both the system and several of its interceptions have been released by the IDF, with the full-power variant of the “Iron Beam” expected to enter service later this year with the Israeli Air Defense Command.

Apparently the schedule is for three full powered Iron Beam systems in service by 1Q 2026.

[MarkSheppard]

https://x.com/front_ukrainian/status/1928721043071389723

Russians release video of Chinese Low-Altitude Laser Defending System (LASS) used to shoot down Ukrainian UAVs in combat zone

(go to link for video)

[MarkSheppard]

More details coming out of the testing of Leonidas High Power Microwave (HPM) weapon (aka a radar turned into a bug zapper)

https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/05/29/1117502/epirus-drone-zapping-microwave-us-military-defense/

The Army awarded Epirus a $66 million contract in early 2023, topped that up with another $17 million last fall, and is currently deploying a handful of the systems for testing with US troops in the Middle East and the Pacific. (The Army won’t get into specifics on the location of the weapons in the Middle East but published a report of a live-fire test in the Philippines in early May.)

....

Tyler Miller, a senior systems engineer on Epirus’s weaponeering team, told me that they never know exactly which part of the target drone is going to go down first [from a HPM blast], but they’ve reliably seen the microwave signal get in somewhere to overload a circuit. “Based on the geometry and the way the wires are laid out,” he said, one of those wires is going to be the best path in. “Sometimes if we rotate the drone 90 degrees, you have a different motor go down first,” he added.

The team has even tried wrapping target drones in copper tape, which would theoretically provide shielding, only to find that the microwave still finds a way in through moving propeller shafts or antennas that need to remain exposed for the drone to fly.

....

Epirus is also currently working on an even smaller version of the Leonidas that can mount on top of the Army’s Stryker combat vehicles, and it’s testing out attaching a single microwave unit to a small airborne drone, which could work as a highly focused zapper to disable cars, data centers, or single enemy drones.

[DRG]

Thoughts on the Booker

It did exist in the testing phase for about a year and I have lots of room in the USA extention OOB so I was thinking of leaving it in from 4/124-5/125 for "what if"
?

[whdonnelly]

I'd love to play it and see how it stands up compared to some of the other 40 ton options.

[DRG]

There will be a "Booker Platoon" and "Booker Section" 4/ 2024 - 5/2025 in the USA extention OOB which is accessable when clicking on the ALLIES button in the purchace menu.


https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17239&stc=1&d=1748961899

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Am I to "assume" that by having the extended OOBs under the allies that we can't use them to build/or use them for our "core" units in the game?

Just trying to understand how that relationship will work based on what's been posted.

Just "chalk it up" the question to my lack of technical knowledge in game design.

Also I'm sure sometime in the "deep past" this might've been asked but, will a plane or jet coming on the map with a couple of AA missiles attack say, enemy helicopters that might already be on the map it sees?

To "BOOKER" under the conditions you posted-why not (Though now I wish I hadn't ditched my build info-oh well!?! Best I can say was I had it slightly better than BRADLEY in armor except for the latest on in service now.) it might provide some interesting game play.

That'll be a much more realistic situation then is what you can call the South African Army at his time all I can say is "there will be blood" in that OOB. Corruption, incompentance and more. It would be a "Best Selling" novel of fiction if it wasn't for the fact it's a shameful but true story.

Also I found a piece of new equipment that will transcend BOTH games within the last week quite by accident but fully verified none the less.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

Pat........ The ALLIES button can be clearly seen as accessible when buying your core. You can test that quite easily

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17240&stc=1&d=1749126818

SO YES the extention OOB's can be used to build your core

[Killbasa]

In both my copies of WinSPWW2 and WinSPMBT I can only buy allied/captured units after I’m done buying core campaign units. The ‘Allies’ option is absent until I press ‘Done’ and move to the support unit purchase screen. Is the ability to purchase allied/captured units for your core campaign force new for the next update or is there something I’m not doing right?

[scorpio_rocks]

Am I too am missing something...


You can have allies in a battle "core" but NOT in a campaign core:
https://i.postimg.cc/kX7dTcZX/allies.png

[DRG]

Am I too am missing something...


You can have allies in a battle "core" but NOT in a campaign core:
https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17241&stc=1&d=1749172688


You can with V18. Take a good look at that screenshot I posted.....it's a campaign "Max core troops~=200( 199 remaining)

[Killbasa]

That would explain it! Thanks for adding that, I’m looking forward to putting that feature to good use!

[DRG]

That would explain it! Thanks for adding that, I’m looking forward to putting that feature to good use!

.....and the injury I am recovering from explains why I forgot the EXE for MBT that everyone else has does not show the ALLIES button but mine and Andy's has for at least a year, maybe longer.

NOT looking for sympathy but the FACTS are that NOBODY can accuratly predict how long it might take the gaps I have in my memory make a re-connection....if ever . Right now I am missing about 6 weeks and I appologize to Pat for suggesting he check a game feature that he, and everyone else but us, does not have yet:doh:

[MarkSheppard]

More land-mine news:

https://www.ksml.fi/uutissuomalainen/8620973

[Finnish] Parliament approves withdrawal from the Ottawa Mine Convention

Parliament has approved Finland's withdrawal from the Ottawa Convention banning anti-personnel mines by 157 votes to 18. There were 24 MPs absent, nobody abstained.

You can watch the recording of the plenary session in this article. Before the mine debate, Parliament approved the amendment of the Sámi Parliament Act by 150 votes to 27. There were 22 MPs absent, nobody abstained.

[Roman]

Am I too am missing something...


You can have allies in a battle "core" but NOT in a campaign core:
https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17241&stc=1&d=1749172688


You can with V18. Take a good look at that screenshot I posted.....it's a campaign "Max core troops~=200( 199 remaining)

Hello. Sorry, but I didn't understand. Is there a version 18?
Because the latest one I have is 17.a

[Mobhack]

We have V18 - it will be released to the end users later on this year, or early next year. See the post:

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=857702&postcount=23

[Roman]

We have V18 - it will be released to the end users later on this year, or early next year. See the post:

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=857702&postcount=23

Understood

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Don,
To Post 183, though appreciated, it was not necessary but, I thank you none the less.

It's if you will "what we do at times" more importantly just glad to see that Andy and you are taking some time off anytime after the holidays would maybe be best to enjoy Christmas and New Years with family peacefully without worrying about us or any deadlines.

We scored a 100% on Training and Knowledge factors and 97% on Drills that makes us the "top dogs" in the whole of the U.S. SE Region to include Eastern Texas.

The Hard Work and Vigilance has paid off once again.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[lansoar]

That would explain it! Thanks for adding that, I’m looking forward to putting that feature to good use!

.....and the injury I am recovering from explains why I forgot the EXE for MBT that everyone else has does not show the ALLIES button but mine and Andy's has for at least a year, maybe longer.


Get well soon.

[MarkSheppard]

WAR WARNING:

OBAT 054 THAILAND
OBAT 058 CAMBODIA

May be having a honest to god war -- there's already rumors of tank engagements in the jungle, on top of airstrikes and drone grenade attacks.

[DRG]

https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/thailand-cambodia-border-dispute-07-24-25-intl-hnk

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c80p8z0y0eko

https://apnews.com/article/thailand-cambodia-border-conflict-explainer-0eb99510a4ea16ee769a5934e0c07383