Omaha Beach - Scen #9

[Second-Maître Laurent]

Hi there!
I'm playing this scenario.
I'm on turn 5, yet.
I play my turn and at he end of the turn, I quit my order phase.
So begin the German turn. At the end of the resolution, the game crash down.
I've saved this game under a new name : idem.
I've changed some preferences : animation level=0; message=0; animation=off : idem

I've tested another scenario : no problem encountered.

Is anyone have an idea?
Having regard to the length of a turn, I don't want to do the scenario again!!!

Regards

[Mobhack]

Try replaying the turn from a previously saved game point and see if it crashes on you again (or not).

If it does crash again, try attaching a save game from immediately prior to the crash event and then we can have a look at it and see if we can spot the problem.

Otherwise a message saying "it crashes!" is not particularly helpful in and of itself.

(One thing you may want to do is to do a disk check with Windows disk maintenance utilities and see if there are any lost clusters that need recovering, those can lead to a file error (and hence crashes) - and if it is your save game, that could be why...). If there were any lost clusters - then probably best to redo the turn from the last save again in case of that.

[Second-Maître Laurent]

Try replaying the turn from a previously saved game point and see if it crashes on you again (or not).

Thank you Mobhacl for your help.
I do that yet! No change.
Here you are the attached file of the saved game at the end of my turn, just befor to launch the Germann turn.

[Mobhack]

Windows defender gave me an antivirus report when I downloaded that - wacatac.b1ml or something similar. Then removed it.

You probably should run an antivirus scan and then try posting that again perhaps?

[DRG]

I will continue testing this but it has not changed since it was played and reviewed from both sides in 2021 and no issues were reported

HOWEVER.

I let it play out AI vs AI and it got to the point of putting replacement on the map ( I think....) the start of turn 6 when it shut the game down and I saw a graphics symbol on the map that should not be there

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16912&stc=1&d=1691013659

HOWEVER Pt 2

I restarted the game from the Autosave and it started right up and it is now playing out in the middle of turn 6

There will be a further investigation but it appears this "issue" does not appear for everyone and it can be overcome using the Autosave

[DRG]

Here's the problem

https://i.imgur.com/P1r8kDz.png

When the green shows up so does that symbol that should not and if it does there is a possibility of the game shutting down. So far restarting using the autosave gets around that but it needs to be and will be investigated further

This will be a legacy issue relating to the conversion to Windows and the changes to the game terrain and it is an on again off again issue

[Second-Maître Laurent]

Thanks guys! You're awesome.

I'm stupid! I didn't thought to launch a game AI VS AI to test the isue. I should remember that next time.

DRG, probably you've found the isue.
Have you a solution?

[Ts4EVER]

Shameless self plug:
What you COULD do, if the scenario is bugged for now, is going into the Campaigns and Scenarios forum and download my Redux 29th Infantry Campaign. ;)
The first scenario is about the Omaha Landings, but you can deploy your own force and the map is more accurate (made with the satellite data conversion tool that was not available back when scenario 9 was created).
Also, I still need testers because the campaign is WIP.

[DRG]

DRG, probably you've found the issue.
Have you a solution?

Not yet. That symbol it's showing indicates that for whatever reason that scenario is trying to load a terrain tile that it should not be which tells me there is info locked in the DAT file that should not be there and it's probably connected to the conversion to Windows from DOS. All it takes is one number

That example shows three ways that map edge can be seen. There should ONLY be two. If green tiles are showing there the problem is revealed

The "good news" from my POV is in my one experience with this reloading the game from the Auto save after the game shuts down SEEMS TO solve the problem..........that and the fact that Tom never reported an issue with it when he played it from both sides for his review

If anyone else has the time play it out and let me know if it shuts down either at the end of turn 5 or the beginning of turn 6 and if it does then does restarting the auto-save let you continue playing.

From what I can see the scenario is 99.9% intact. I need to test more but if you see green on the west map edge avoid scrolling the map so that the upper left corner is displayed and if it does shut down simply restart using the autosave

EDIT


I started a new version of this AI vs AI then changed it to Human vs Human on a restart and turned off all of the Computer-controlled units I could and I am now on turn 10.. the west map edge only shows grey and the game has not shut down

Thinking now it's one sequence of events that triggers this and sometimes it happens and sometimes it does not which is why it didn't happen to Tom turning his testing review. The "trick" is finding the trigger but FOR SURE the "tell" that the issue is in play is if you see some green tiles on the west map edge

EDIT 2


It's back........ turn 12

https://i.imgur.com/YfmHhCD.png

but the red and yellow symbol is not so it did not crash

Once the green edge shows up EDIT clearing smoke ( U ) will remove the green but so far I have found the green edge itself is not the cause of the crash but it's likely whatever sequence of code that puts that symbol on the map that does

BUT

It does seem that if it happens just start the game again with the autosave and you can continue on

[Mobhack]

I noticed that the buggy terrain appears on the map edge only after smoke has first appeared on the map. Everything is just fine till smoke/flame is added.

If you press "U" to clear smoke, then the grass hexes that overwrite grey map edge ones go away again, until you press U again or new smoke arrives - triggering the global "show smoke" flag.

Now - if you clear smoke and then hit end turn, and no new smoke arrives - you might be able to make it through the turn end. However Don's solution of saving, exiting the game and restarting again is a much better solution here. Especially if you see some garbage map hexes that aren't green grass at the LHS of the map - like that red blob!.

So the problem seems to be related to the smoke, likely an index or a pointer out of bounds (?) - and the very large map with loads of toys on it - I'll need to debug that when I find the time. If it is (hopefully) in some small part then hopefully I can put some guard code into whatever is doing this and pointing off into the map array(s) which likely are declared just after the smoke one in memory. (If the game had been programmed in say Pascal, rather than C++, then that language would have thrown an array out of bounds error "hissy fit", C++ simply assumes that the programmer fully intended to do whatever daft thing it's told to..)

[DRG]

Andy is absolutely correct. That green shows up when smoke is present. Pressing U gets rid of the smoke AND the weirdnesses along the western edge. So with this scenario I would suggest clearing smoke before ending your turn MIGHT "solve" the problem until we can (.... Maybe) figure out how to stop it

[Second-Maître Laurent]

Shameless self plug:
What you COULD do, if the scenario is bugged for now, is going into the Campaigns and Scenarios forum and download my Redux 29th Infantry Campaign. ;)
The first scenario is about the Omaha Landings, but you can deploy your own force and the map is more accurate (made with the satellite data conversion tool that was not available back when scenario 9 was created).
Also, I still need testers because the campaign is WIP.

Hi Ts4EVER!
I've a little time.
I can test your scenario.
I'm going to dwnload it.
See you later.

[DRG]

Shameless self plug:
What you COULD do, if the scenario is bugged for now, is going into the Campaigns and Scenarios forum and download my Redux 29th Infantry Campaign. ;)
The first scenario is about the Omaha Landings, but you can deploy your own force and the map is more accurate (made with the satellite data conversion tool that was not available back when scenario 9 was created).
Also, I still need testers because the campaign is WIP.


Yes, and one possibility for you is to create a standalone Omaha scenario from that campaign that we can add to the game

:D

[Ts4EVER]

Oh I will absolutely do that when the campaign is finished. In fact, I did that with the original version, so those scenarios already ingame could be replaced by the new ones with the satellite based maps.

[Second-Maître Laurent]

Okay. So I've started again this scenario, saving turn after turn in a new slot each tile (1 turn, 1 slot).

Arriving at the end of turn 5, I've turn off smoke, saved again my game. turned off the game and restart. miracle: I'm arrived on turn 6... with a lot of green on the left of the screen. But I'm on turn 6: victory!

Thanks for your help and I hope this issue will be settled for the next upload!
Cautious as a snake walking on eggs, I'm goein to continue to save the game, turn after turn (for this issue appear on turn 12 again).
So, guys, you're are superguys (better than superman :laugh:).
So long and good speed!

[Beeg]

Hi,

Just came across this thread and I have the same problem with the game crashing. It seems to happen in long, large scenarios (large army, large map) when the green hexes on the left of the map appear. I play a lot of AI vs. AI. Sometimes restoring from the last save game helps, sometimes not. The 'clear smoke' function gets rid of the green hexes on the left but they come back as soon as smoke appears.

It happens on all the big scenarios I've played in the last couple years, since the upgrade before this last one. I like to make changes to scenarios, like a "what if" situation, and have the PC play itself so I figured the changes were to blame before I saw this thread.

I just thought I'd let you know in case it helps.

[DRG]

I think in furure in cases like this where the game is crashing for people we need to see details of their computer and memory and info on what else may have been going on at the same time

Also....... saying things like "It happens on all the big scenarios I've played in the last couple years" Just that does not help us without examples of what scenarios were being played and how they were being played ( AI vs Human or AI vs AI )

What this thread amounts to is TWO (2) players have noticed a problem on a thread that has 877 (to date) views AND we have a player would has now playtested 624 scenarios ( from BOTH SIDES ) and he has not reported a problem

[zovs66]

In the last 23 years or so, I have never had a CTD with any versions of SPWW2 (or MBT for that matter), playing small, medium or large or CGs. I have played and designed several large to huge scenario and "my" play tester to my knowledge never had a CTD with any of my scenarios.

Just my thoughts and experiences.

[Beeg]

Just thought it might be helpful. smh

[Beeg]

Suggestion: Play scenario #400 (Tarawa, 11/20/43) as AI vs AI and let the game run. Around turn 40 it always crashes for me.

If this is a bug I would assume it happens for everyone but, if not, then it's something on my end.

Thank you for your time.

[dTerm]

@Beeg

I will run #400 and see, whether I get a crash too.

Right now I am testing #9, since it also crashes on my machine at turn 6.

[DRG]

The more people testing and reporting the better but I can confire THERE IS A PROBLEM and WE WILL INVESTIGATE.

It seems to be tied into the "west" edge Junk terrain that is showing up and it seems to accumulate the longer you play. I am at turn 34 or so right now and there is junk grass terrain in some places 7-8 hexes in from the west edge

https://i.imgur.com/GE3LkCn.png

This should not be happening. It never used to happen and we never used to have these reports

Did this start with V14 or after V14 ?

Also is this only happening AI vs AI ?

The scenario review of this did not mention a problem like this but it was played Human vs AI

[DRG]

We are both testing this and I can say that the issue with west edge junk in water scenario exists at least back as far as V13 ........testing continues

[Karagin]

The junk terrain shows up on other maps as well, not just beach ones. I have seen it a lot on Battle generated games and I had a notepad list of when it had happened but the computer updated, where my file went, that is my quest.

It always does appear, the junk terrain, on the West (Left) side of the map.

[Karagin]

Also this happens in WinMBT as well.

[DRG]

If anyone can get screen shots or a save game of terrain Junk on non water maps I'd like to see them becasue I've never seen it and I am playing a battle now looking for it and I see nothing at all out of place


How many turns need to be played before this shows ?
Is it just AI vs AI or Human/AI


I have a number of high turn count save games for both MBT and WW2 and I have not found any that show the kind of terrain junk that they water maps show

I also have a generated beach assault running with the water to the west and SO FAR the game has not generated any map edge junk.....BUT..... the map still shows the grey edge and it seems that when that disapears the problem start

Maybe.......

The more people looking into this the better. More data helps us narrow down the cause and that narrows down where in the code to look

[zovs66]

Do you want us to test with water/beach only scenarios?

I have never seen any "junk" terrain anyway that I am aware of.

Also have lots of high count scenarios.

[zovs66]

I just fired up Omaha an I do see this on the left side, is this junk terrain?

https://i.imgur.com/HQN00LL.png

[zovs66]

Turn 2.

https://i.imgur.com/cyn2mg9.png

[DRG]

In that scenario those gray hexes represent troop ships that reload LC's

The green grass is the junk

[zovs66]

Okay got my first every CTD in 23 some years.

Was playing #400 Tarawa, on turn 17. Had the green junk (see above).

Just ended my turn and the Japs fired at me and then my OBA hit the island and poof she was gone.

Not sure what is needed. I have the last save I had.

[DRG]

Hold onto that, we may need it

[zovs66]

Roger that. I don't think I can proceed in that game. Will try later to see if I can advance beyond turn 17.

Fired up SPMBT and just did an auto generated battle as an assault with a beach in 1988 with the Soviets assaulting the Danes. Interesting so far, smaller map (80x150).

The first thing I noticed that is different between SPWW2 and SPMBT is an amph assault is this:

In SPWW2 when all your troops are loaded on LCV or Alligators you can hit the 'h' key and select the A0 leader and then exit you have the A0 now selected, and then you can do 'b' key for OBA.

In SPMBt when all your troops are loaded on GSP Ferry's (Soviets) and then hit the 'h' key and select the A0 leader and then exit you are still on the GSP Ferry for that A0 leader.

EDIT, you can still plot arty with the Ferry A1 but ot the A0 leader (?).

[zovs66]

Well that was a disaster. I was trying to phase in the smoke for the amph assault by setting to turns 1-4 but on the first turn the Leo's and TOW's smoked almost all the ships carrying T-80s and one out 4 companies was annihilated lol.

Going back to turn 1 to reprogram the artillery smoke.

So that was still not great for a test. This seems to call for a custom scenario for MBT, so I think I'll create one using a full size map and correct amph assault force of some kind.

[DRG]

Roger that. I don't think I can proceed in that game. Will try later to see if I can advance beyond turn 17.

Fired up SPMBT and just did an auto generated battle as an assault with a beach in 1988 with the Soviets assaulting the Danes. Interesting so far, smaller map (80x150).

The first thing I noticed that is different between SPWW2 and SPMBT is an amph assault is this:

In SPWW2 when all your troops are loaded on LCV or Alligators you can hit the 'h' key and select the A0 leader and then exit you have the A0 now selected, and then you can do 'b' key for OBA.

In SPMBt when all your troops are loaded on GSP Ferry's (Soviets) and then hit the 'h' key and select the A0 leader and then exit you are still on the GSP Ferry for that A0 leader.

EDIT, you can still plot arty with the Ferry A1 but ot the A0 leader (?).


I just tried that and went through the same H and B sequence and both games behaved the same way

WW2 shows "Spotting unit is A1> LCMI"
MBT shows "Spotting unit is A1> Barge"

In both cases I am taken to the bombard menu so in my test ( I just let the AI buy and deploy amphib units )pressing " ......the 'h' key and select the A0 leader and then exit you have the A0 now selected) brought me to the LCMI the AO was on not the A0

In my case I selected the AO from the Left list but I also tried selecting him from the right list and on Exit I was brought to the A1 LCMI not the AO

[Mobhack]

I vaguely recollect some "dodge" we programmed in for beach assaults way back in the DOS days to allow barges to plot arty, since there was often no way to get to any "0" unit to call for fires since all would be passengers in the old SSI game - unless say it was MBT and you had a few helos or you had a support LCI(G) - but otherwise, the HQ units would need to be deployed to be selected, and that is somewhat difficult in the open sea!.

That will likely be it, but it was 15 or 20 years back and I havent bothered playing amphib assaults in that time - not my cup of tea, really.

[zovs66]

Thanks both!

The 400 scenario may be different? IDK, I just know in it I was hitting the 'h' key and grabbing that A0 Brigiader General A0 unit and exiting and seeing his name listed on the far bottom left.

Interesting I reloaded my turn 17 save and the scenario always starts out with the A0 leader with the screen to the left and no unit on the map (not even sure if he is on a boat?).

So this is what I was referring to in that scenario:

https://i.imgur.com/WZc4RCq.png

And:

https://i.imgur.com/Nyy5I7C.png

Yeah when you first load it fresh it display the same with the A0 leader.

Thanks for the tidbit on the landing craft.

[Mobhack]

The first showing of the list will likely initialise on the A0, not too sure of any future attempt though.

[DRG]

If anyone sees the west edge junk showing up in a new game on a newly made or newly generated map please post the save game here.

Thanks

[zovs66]

Don,

Here you go.

280 = t17
275 = t0

Everything else in between on some saves.

[Karagin]

Do you want the same for MBT over in it's own thread on that forum?

[Mobhack]

No point in investigating the 2 games, one will do since it is highly likely to be the same problem since the base code is the same. So investigating the 2 games at the same point would just be chasing the rabbit's shadow and as pointless. If the problem is solved for WW2, it will be applied to MBT, and only then if there is a still a problem with that - then it would need further investigation of course.

[dTerm]

Unfortunately some RL issues ate my time, so I am able only now to post them.

OK, here are some of my observations, after about 10 Ai vs. AI runs of scenario #9:

- first 3 games all crashed, while deplyoing resupplies, at the beginning of turn 6, with green garbage terrain of the left edge.

- next game I did remove smoke on turn 5, and was able to continue running the game until turn 15, when I quit.
But the interesting part is, that in turn 6 the game didn't crash, even though new green terrain appeared and even the yellow-red blob in the images Don provided.

- after this the next 3-4 games run way past turn 6 without crashing.

- next game I intervened on turn 5, just to manually end the turn as player 1, after which the game ran without problems untill turn 10, when I quit.

- next game I intervened after turn 5. So on turn 6 the resupplies successfully deployed, but when I tried to do player 1's moves the game crashed, just when I tried to pan the map.

- last game I did run crashed on turn 3 already, again with green garbage terrain on the left edge.

Hope this is still relevant and of any help. If there's anything more specific to test, please let me know.
If time permits I will try to attach some savefiles here in the next days.

[DRG]

Don,

Here you go.

280 = t17
275 = t0

Everything else in between on some saves.


OK I figured out the game was SPww2 but these are all from the Tarawa scenario which we know has problems. What I am looking for is new maps either hand made or generated that show the west edge junk after a few turns of game play and it does not have to be a water map. If anyone can show me the junk showing up on a non water map we want to see it

Don.....remember those scenarios you tried to reserect but just couldn't no matter what ??

Right now I am thinking the Tarawa #400 and Omaha Beach #9 are their kissing cousins

BUT, I am not giving up on them yet but I want to be prove that this is not an old problem showing now but is a still active issue on new maps

[Ts4EVER]

For what it's worth, people played the Omaha Beach scenario in my new 29th campaign and so far no reports of crashes.

[DRG]

For what it's worth, people played the Omaha Beach scenario in my new 29th campaign and so far no reports of crashes.

Has there been any reports of inappropriate terrain showing on the west edge?

[Ts4EVER]

Nope.

[DRG]

OK. We are particularly interested in anything that shows up in a new map/sceanrio but if anyone sees anything in any other scenario or generated game other than the 2 we already know about ( 9 and 400 ) we want to know about it with a save game if possible.

The more examples we have of it gives us more things to test with the code fixes we will try

[zovs66]

This is just an FYI.

I tested (only a few turns, but the left hand junk problem manifest itself in the first couple of turns) two of my Amph assault scenarios (716 and 728) one has the water on the right and the other the water on the left. But thus far there is no "map junk" in the scenarios showing up.

So this is a "hopeful" indication that newer scenarios are perhaps okay.

I'll keep trying a few things.

[zovs66]

I have noticed something new which I have not noticed before in both games. Perhaps its is what is designed or always been this way but I just started noticing while doing some testing.

In both games, any AFV that has water movement class or capability (i.e., Sherman DD or BTR-60PB) can move beyond the "lit up" movement area. Normally when not in the water no AFV can surpass the "lit up" movement area.

I don't know if this is intentional, or if there is any ill effects (so far I have not seen any AFV with water capability breaking down).

Just wanted to bring this up incase its some kind of side effect?

[DRG]

We now have a save game from MBT that shows this. Note that the junk gets placed over V hex markers, buildings and vehicles

https://i.imgur.com/2YJpPzi.png

So YES........ we are taking this seriously and are looking into it

[dTerm]

This is a freshly random generated beach assault.
After turn 4 it shows junk terrain on the left edge.

[DRG]

Got it. Thanks

That is one big ugly battle.......At least I know somebody tried a winter beach assault. :)

I used grey sand for those to make it more dreary

[Dion]

Seems to me that I reported this bug along time ago, but no one was very intent on helping me, so I just learned to "go with the flow" as they say. I just pretended it was one those unexplained things that happens on the battlefield and learned to play through it. Hope you guys get it figured out though, because it sure is ugly, and you never know if it's going to get worse or how it's going to effect the game in the future.

[DRG]

The early reports of this could not be duplicated in the development games. With more examples we have been able to

Did you include a screenshot or save game "a long time ago'?

How long exactly ?

[zovs66]

Got it. Thanks

That is one big ugly battle.......At least I know somebody tried a winter beach assault. :)

I used grey sand for those to make it more dreary

My scenario 716 is a winter beach assault, thanks for your graphics!

https://i.imgur.com/zDb56Dr.png

[zovs66]

Also, I am not seeing the "junk terrain" in small maps, it only seems to be in larger sized maps, no?

[Dion]

The early reports of this could not be duplicated in the development games. With more examples we have been able to

Did you include a screenshot or save game "a long time ago'?

How long exactly ?

No I didn't include a screenshot, and I used the save game file to just finish the game. I'm sorry to say "I'm not very computer savvy", so I didn't think of sending a file in. I'm not sure exactly how long ago it was, but it was at least a few years ago. In-fact the way time flies, it might have been 5 years or more, I can't remember for sure.

[dTerm]

Got it. Thanks

That is one big ugly battle.......At least I know somebody tried a winter beach assault. :)

I used grey sand for those to make it more dreary

Though completly unintentional, it's still an eerie sight. ;)

The grey sand surely fits to winter beaches...

The battle was 20000 points each to increase complexity, hoping it would help luring out that terrain kobold. :)

[DRG]

Also, I am not seeing the "junk terrain" in small maps, it only seems to be in larger sized maps, no?


Right now I am just testing what I find. I have not experimented with different map sizes/dimensions to see if that changes anything. For now it does it or does not but I would like to find a ....

Do X then Y and you get junk so that it is predictable and repeatable and predictable and repeatable are the ones that get fixed

If anyone want to test that be my guest :up::up:

[Karagin]

The MBT map is what I am getting from time to time, and it's ordinarily along ONLY the left side of the map.

[DRG]

Yes that has been established

What I am looking at now is if there is a connection with map size and junk terrain production

OBVIOUSLY WE HAVE A PROBLEM and we are working towards eliminating it. There should not be a map size connection but nothing is certain

[Ts4EVER]

Werent new map sizes added at one point? Namely those that ended on 5?

[Beeg]

Another example is Scenario #12 - Operation Jupiter. Played as AI vs AI, the game crashes for me around turn 35.

Same thing... green hexes on the left of the map. To me, it seems as though this happens in the large scenarios and I've only noticed it since the update before the last one (v.14 ?).

[DRG]

Werent new map sizes added at one point? Namely those that ended on 5?


That change was made November 2016 which is well before when some are saying they started noticing issues

That would be V10 for WW2 and V11 for MBT

[DRG]

Another example is Scenario #12 - Operation Jupiter. Played as AI vs AI, the game crashes for me around turn 35.

Same thing... green hexes on the left of the map. To me, it seems as though this happens in the large scenarios and I've only noticed it since the update before the last one (v.14 ?).


Large sceanrios or games *MAY* be the trigger but that is what we have a lot of.... we don't really have a lot of small map scenarios

If anyone sees this on a smaller map please post a save

This is what was changed for V14........


1/ For scenario design and editing there is one improvement and one addition

* When editing weapons data in the game editor for any of the four weapons a unit uses, the weapon number of the current weapon now appears when you click on the weapon button. Anyone who has tried to edit weapons data in a scenario in the past will know how much simpler this makes the whole process as in the past the only way to know what weapon # was used was to check the unit in MOBHack and it slowed or discouraged that kind of editing which was normally used to adjust the ammo count. The entire process is much simpler now.
* The Sound used by the weapon is now the final item shown. It would be rare to use it but it is now available and the existing sound # will show when you get to it. You will need to have knowledge of the existing sounds in the game however.


2/ Assault boats would sometimes show as burning wrecks. This has been corrected. They will be removed from the game map when destroyed as was SOP in the past.

3/ The unit name is now reported in the casualty message - this is handy to know which unit actually got hit in collateral damage situations

4/ Armoured cars that were capable of carrying passengers inside will now protect passengers in the same was an APC does. Previously the code considered them to be outside on the hull.

5/ There is now a 250 limit on changing the height and density of a Hex but they still cannot exceed the normal limits already in the game.

6/ Some changes to Engineering units

Engineering infantry now have a slightly reduced chance of inadvertently setting off a mine when entering a mined hex

* The text for mine clearance (second number) has been changed to "(X remaining)"
* Defending engineer infantry will now only clear mines, barbed wire and dragons teeth if they physically enter the hex containing them in order to allow defending engineers to sit just behind the defences without clearing their own defences. It has been a small annoyance for years that if you placed your own engineers just behind your defences they would start clearing them. They still can but when in the defence but now Engineers must enter a mined / Barbed wire/ dragons teeth hex to dismantle their own defences. In the defence they can no longer do that from one hex away.


7 / Aircraft occasionally would enter the map, make their attack run then do an instant 180 and leave the way they arrived. This has been corrected

8/ Passengers will now report "CARRIED BY: "..... normally this is obvious. They are in the vehicle carrying them but occasionally legacy scenarios would have ghost / doppelganger units and this allows those of us that fix these things the ability to know where they are supposed to be and when put into the transport that is already carrying their twins, cease being a ghost unit.

9/ Occasionally on very small maps the game would place V hexes on grey border hexes that neither side could take. This has been corrected

10/ Pressing K was reported in the Help file as a way to turn ID tags on and off quickly. This function did not work but now does. It's very useful for someone who may not like to play with ID tags on all the time but finds it useful for finding stray units. Now pressing K will turn on the ID tags when they are off and off when they are on when the game is being played. K does not work during deployment.

11/ The name of unit that has suffered casualties has been added to the message that appears on the bottom of the screen. It will now read...." Infantry Group - Suffers X casualties (Y)" with X being the number taken now and Y being the accumulated total.

12/ The mission types were being reported incorrectly in winSPWW2 Scenhack Sort / SQL. This has been corrected

13/ Some new flags have been added to customise scenarios Extended game version only
Entering 17 will give you the flag of WW2 era Iraq
Entering 25 will give you the flag of WW2 era Iran
Entering 97 will get you the flag of Denmark
Entering 98 will get you the flag of Estonia
Entering 99 will get you the flag of Lithuania

If you see something that you think might be the cause, let us know. Personally, I don't see anything

[DRG]

I just confirmed the problem existed before "the update before the last one (v.14)

I installed a copy of WW2 v10 and ran Scenario #12 - Operation Jupiter and after the ( IT NEVER ENDS ! ) opening bombardment I went "junk hunting" along the west edge and it was there..... a little more subtly than some others but I have learned how to find it easily on a green map

The next test will be to go back another couple of releases and do another check

[DRG]

Confirmed issue exists back to 2011 V4.5

So this is not "recent"

Right now I am looking at turn 2 of 400 Tarawa using a V4.EXE and the green junk is all there

EDIT......... found a copy of winSPWW2 V1........ ran Omaha beach and after the first turn

https://i.imgur.com/VnIUbxO.png

(sigh.......very badwords)

[zovs66]

So it appears that the "junk" goes back a ways and yet not everyone got a CTD in #9 or there would have been more reports. Also, ditto on #400 I would think. I got the CTD on turn 17 of 400, so others would have noticed this. I vaguely recall playing 400 several years ago and got much further along then 17, I was somewhere in turns 40s or 50s trying to kill of the darn Japs from the island. but that was many moons ago.

Just food for thought.

[DRG]

Andys thinking now is ( my simplified version ) we have an array number that is too low which is causing overflow and the reason it is more noticable now is we add more things every year and what may have only been a inconsequential event in 2006 is now 17 years later, not so iinconsequential

Think straw and a camels back and canary in a coal mine......some peoples systems may be older or more sensitive which is why it was noticed earlier by some people than others.

ALSO..... now lots more people are looking for it AND know what to look for so we get more reports

( think "dog pile")

AND...... it seems to have been noticed more often by people letting the AI play the AI in big scenarios and I have no idea how long they may have been doing that at one sitting.

So........ "the terrain junk" may only be a symptom of the problem not the cause

[DRG]

Until this is solved this is all we are concentrating on

Here are some questions.. if you have answer or can test and get an answer please do


is it a large map - if so, from what size upwards

is it a scenario with lots and lots of dugin defenders?

is it a scenario with loads of mines and stuff, trenches (not the foxholes)

is it loads of artillery fires??

Plus - do we have a non-assault scenario that shows this with hopefully no air show or multi regiment stonk at the start?



EDIT............. further questions
Looking at the reported scenarios -


-seem to be assaults with loads of defence stores - mines etc
- seems mostly to be seen with seaborne maps( but those just show it more easily so I personally don't think it's the water that does it)
- loads of troops, especially defenders
- the defender is on the LHS?


We need to isolate the trigger(s) there are many questions

Finding an example of a small map with small unit counts that generate the junk is probably more helpful than examples with everything dialed to the max.

We KNOW big involved sceanrios have this problem but is it all big involved sceanrios ? is it big involved sceanrios with hundreds of houses ? Lots of arty ? lots of smoke ?

Or can it be seen in smaller maps and smaller games?

What is handy now is the 'U' key allows going to the west map edge and pressing it repeatedly acts like a flashing "beacon for junk" in non water maps




Anyone wanting to be investigative playtesters please do..... the more the merrier there are lots of questions that need answers

[DRG]

Ran a 3000 point meeter on a 100x100 map and after 4-5 turns did not find anything but this is not a definitive test

I ran an 8750 defender point battle on the same map size and found junk on the grey west map edge....... not a lot but there was some


Ran a 4000 point defender ( UK vs Jap 1942)

60x60 map

Lots of air and arty ( smoke ) and mines etc

Let it run 7 turns

No junk

Ran a 4000 point defender ( UK vs Jap 1942)

85x85 map that is the next size larger than a standard max SP2 map

Lots of air and arty ( smoke ) and mines etc

Let it run 6 turns

No junk


NONE of this is definitive proof of anything.......yet

[DRG]

95x95 map----- meeter-------5 turns ran....... no junk

95x95 map----- defend--5600 points------5 turns ran....... lots of arty etc--found junk

95x95 map----- defend--10000 points------1 turn ran....... lots of arty ,smoke etc, etc--found a bit more junk

90x90 map----- defend--14000 points------1 turn ran....... lots of arty ,smoke etc, etc--found a bit more junk and some was three hexes in

70x70 map----- defend--15500 points------1 turn ran....... lots of arty ,smoke , air etc, etc-- lots of junk up to 4 hexes in from the west

45x70 map --- defend--15500 points------1 turn ran....... lots of arty ,smoke , air etc, etc-- junk up to 4-5 hexes in from the west

That last one was interesting in that I could see junk being added with just about every arty stonk...... whether that was the arty or the smoke the arty generated has yet to be determined

BUT...... we have learned a few things......... It is NOT large maps that causes this and it is NOT just older sceanrios

Testing continues

[zovs66]

Just found some junk. This is my test:

Test 1
Human (US) vs AI (German)
June 44
Map: 80x100
15,000 points
Mission: Meeting Engagement
Did not move the US
Turns ran: 10
See some junk.

[dTerm]

95x95 map----- meeter-------5 turns ran....... no junk

95x95 map----- defend--5600 points------5 turns ran....... lots of arty etc--found junk

95x95 map----- defend--10000 points------1 turn ran....... lots of arty ,smoke etc, etc--found a bit more junk

90x90 map----- defend--14000 points------1 turn ran....... lots of arty ,smoke etc, etc--found a bit more junk and some was three hexes in

70x70 map----- defend--15500 points------1 turn ran....... lots of arty ,smoke , air etc, etc-- lots of junk up to 4 hexes in from the west

45x70 map --- defend--15500 points------1 turn ran....... lots of arty ,smoke , air etc, etc-- junk up to 4-5 hexes in from the west

That last one was interesting in that I could see junk being added with just about every arty stonk...... whether that was the arty or the smoke the arty generated has yet to be determined

BUT...... we have learned a few things......... It is NOT large maps that causes this and it is NOT just older sceanrios

Testing continues

Thx for the sum-up. :up:

Did only a few tests today, with smaller maps than 50x50 and under 10000 points, but couldn't find junk terrain so far.

I was thinking, that maybe unit movement may contribute to the terrain screw-up. But as of now that's pure guesswork...

[zovs66]

Test 2
Human (US) vs AI (German)
June 44
Map: 80x100
15,000 points
Mission: Assault
Did not move the US, just plotted some OBA for several turns 1-6, then plotted air for turn 7. German air attack on turn 6. While the Fw-190's were attacking I saw some "Junk".
Turns ran: 7
See some junk.

Both of these tests were just random generated battles. Both also had both air and artillery.

[DRG]

Thx for the sum-up. :up:

Did only a few tests today, with smaller maps than 50x50 and under 10000 points, but couldn't find junk terrain so far.

I was thinking, that maybe unit movement may contribute to the terrain screw-up. But as of now that's pure guesswork...

Anyone who tests this BE AWARE the results are inconsistant

Detailed above this test
70x70 map----- defend--15500 points------1 turn ran....... lots of arty ,smoke , air etc, etc-- lots of junk up to 4 hexes in from the west

I ran a number of others after that and wasn't seeing junk then I went back and redid this test exactly.........NO JUNK:eek:

[DRG]

There is MAYBE something here
https://i.imgur.com/tjMK0LC.png

The location of the junk is more or less opposite where smoke is but about 50 hexes away

Right now anything seems possible. I see it in one test but then another test I don't BUT if the location of the smoke on map has something to do with where the junk is it might be that my second test that did not show junk did not have smoke in the right place

Yeah that's weird....... but so is this bug

[DRG]

NOPE......... that didn't work

[zovs66]

At first I was thinking the junk has something to do with arty or air strikes. But I don't know. This one is hard to replicate.

[Ts4EVER]

I assume there are no offmap units in these?

[zovs66]

I assume there are no offmap units in these?

With regards to 9 and 400 that would be an incorrect assumption. But with the generated battles then that would be a correct assumption.

[zovs66]

Other than OBA of course.

[DRG]

At first I was thinking the junk has something to do with arty or air strikes. But I don't know. This one is hard to replicate.


I did watch one and I only saw this once but I had fast arty ON and every time a stonk hit the map, green junk would appear on the west edge..... watched it happen three times but it is not certain if it was the arty or the smoke the arty created that caused it.. but I for sure saw it happen

That was a 45x70 map --- defend--15500 points-

I *THINK* the defenders were on the left side. AI vs AI set up

EDIT

It is worth mentioning that the junk appeared on the west edge very close to the same location vertically as the arty stonks in the middle of the map

[Karagin]

Off or on map units, when I see the junk, it happens regardless.

[zovs66]

Likewise I also so the "junk" appear right after a few Fw 190's were making their strafing and bombing runs. Prior to that (turns 1-5 I think) the arty was pounding the map and no "junk".

The thing I am noticing is that 15k points seems to trigger it. I have a test going with 10k and have not seen any "junk" yet.

[DRG]

Just saw the junk appear again during a barrage. Defender was on the left side and it was the attackers arty that started junk appearing

The junk appears around the middle of the west map edge when I saw it appear but by the end of the first turn it was up and down the west map edge

90x90 map 15500 points on the defenders side
377 defender units / 500 attacker

[DRG]

This is for those of you who are interested in getting this solved and are willing to put a bit of time

Set up a battle exactly this way

Map 70x70
Defender points 15500
P1 UK defend......... 3 air sorties
P2 Japan attack.......2 air sorties
Date July 1942
AI vs AI

ADDITIONALLY
Preferences
Sound, Animation and message delay all showing NO bar
Battle FX OFF
Everything else is ON including Fast arty and all player preferences set to 100% with both troop quality at XXX

If that creates edge junk for everyone that tries it then we all have a consistant standard and that means both Andy and I have something to work from that we know shows the problem on other computers as well

[DRG]

FWIW, being dug in or not does not seem to be a factor. Edge junk appeared with the same set up as above but the battle set up as a Japanese Advance

[DRG]

Also, Andy ran the same set up and got the same result so once we know others see it too we have a firm base to test

[zovs66]

This is for those of you who are interested in getting this solved and are willing to put a bit of time

Set up a battle exactly this way

Map 70x70
Defender points 15500
P1 UK defend......... 3 air sorties
P2 Japan attack.......2 air sorties
Date July 1942
AI vs AI

ADDITIONALLY
Preferences
Sound, Animation and message delay all showing NO bar
Battle FX OFF
Everything else is ON including Fast arty and all player preferences set to 100% with both troop quality at XXX

If that creates edge junk for everyone that tries it then we all have a consistant standard and that means both Andy and I have something to work from that we know shows the problem on other computers as well

Got the map junk on turn one, the Jap air flying saw it on the left.

[zovs66]

Managed a screenshot.

https://i.imgur.com/0nCRhPb.png

[zovs66]

I did another test same as above except I used June 44, US and Germany and a Meeting Engagement.

Junk on the left.

I never (until today) did AI vs AI and never have seen these steel balls before.

https://i.imgur.com/bsMfHHb.png

[Mobhack]

those are booby traps, which the Germans like to put out when defending in the later war

[zovs66]

Ah I see them now (cannon balls), and that giggled my memory, I put some in the Irish vs Great Britain scenarios I created lol.

[DRG]

Significant development

Ran the same set up but NO ARTY or Mortars for either side just dug in infantry and tanks

Ran 9 turns and there is junk all over the west edge

[zovs66]

Third test, almost the save per DRG but I used:

P1 = UK
P2 = German
May 1941

Everything else the same.

Junk on the the left.

https://i.imgur.com/FvGkF1r.png

[DRG]

Andy ran a test with the defender setting at 10,000 and the junk still appeared

Anyone interested please keep testing. It's going to take a while to isolate this so any info is helpful

We need to find the point it stops appearing then start looking at that

[dTerm]

This is for those of you who are interested in getting this solved and are willing to put a bit of time

Set up a battle exactly this way

Map 70x70
Defender points 15500
P1 UK defend......... 3 air sorties
P2 Japan attack.......2 air sorties
Date July 1942
AI vs AI

ADDITIONALLY
Preferences
Sound, Animation and message delay all showing NO bar
Battle FX OFF
Everything else is ON including Fast arty and all player preferences set to 100% with both troop quality at XXX

If that creates edge junk for everyone that tries it then we all have a consistant standard and that means both Andy and I have something to work from that we know shows the problem on other computers as well

Yep, got the junk on the left edge, too, on turn 1.

[Karagin]

I will have some time on Sunday will run a couple of tests in both games.

[zovs66]

I switched to MBT and am running a similar test to above, will post if any junk pops on MBT.

[Ts4EVER]

Could it be related to battle damage somehow?

[DRG]

Could it be related to battle damage somehow?


It could be related to anything that happens in the game....... that is what we are trying to find out

What kind of " battle damage" are you thinking of ?

[zovs66]

MBT has the same issue

15500 points (both sides)
USA vs Soviet Assault
June 1989
same params as DRG's sans above.

Junk on the left.

[DRG]

Yes we know MBT and WW2 will have the same issues as the code is by design, identical so maps can be swapped

Here is something to test
I got it down to seeing junk with 5250 defender points

Try a pure armour battle with 6000 defender points....... just buy armour..... no arty.... no infantry and I put the battle on a dead flat level one green grass map....nothing but green grass

Turn 7..... NO JUNK

This thing is starting to get "annoying". this ***MAY*** be terrain related but if it is it is realted to the orginal terrain that was used by V1 not the newer stuff
:doh:

Look at the terrain that does appear as junk .......it's all "basic" terrain nothing "fancy"

[Dion]

It's possible the junk isn't making the game crash, as I've seen "grassy junk" hundreds of times, and I've witnessed the game crash only a dozen times or so over the years. Something else could be making the game crash and the junk has nothing to do with it. It could be just a coincidence, giving us a false lead.

[Mobhack]

I have a vague memory of sometimes seeing the junk like forever, but taking no notice of it as it never affected game play - and I usually play on green maps, and also - never any really huge scenarios especially those ones with a gigantic barrage and air show at the beginning!. Never saw any crash, or I would have been on that.

The junk was always the green hex edge tiles - no idea what was stuffing these into the smoke array, but have made a quick fix to sweep out any tiles that arent in the correct range for smoke tiles out of that array before displaying it, seems to work, copied to Don to test.

[Ts4EVER]

Could it be related to battle damage somehow?


It could be related to anything that happens in the game....... that is what we are trying to find out

What kind of " battle damage" are you thinking of ?

I mean the craters and stuff. I assume when those are made the hexes have to be "updated" somehow? Might be something goes wrong there, maybe hexes with the wrong number also are affected.

[DRG]

Yes, the cratering IS something I was working towards but testing for something like this needs to be methodical and I had not got to damage yet

There may be good news. Andy has passed on a potential fix to me to test but I have to be out most of the day

We will keep everyone informed and IF this does elliminate the junk the next step is to see if that stops the crashes

[DRG]

I am in the process of running tests with the code Andy sent me and SO FAR it appears to have fixed the edge junk problem. All the saves I had made that had showed edge junk now do not show it

What I am doing now is let the scenarios where junk was seen that crashed run and that is going to take awhile

[DRG]

Try replaying the turn from a previously saved game point and see if it crashes on you again (or not).

Thank you Mobhack for your help.
I do that yet! No change.
Here you are the attached file of the saved game at the end of my turn, just befor to launch the Germann turn.

Running this now and on turn 8. The scenario involves a multitude of exchanges of fire per turn and I will let it run overnight if need be

NO junk on the west edge.......

[DRG]

Here you are the attached file of the saved game at the end of my turn, just befor to launch the Germann turn.


I let that run AI vs AI. When I went to bed it was on turn 21. Got up at 2:30 am and checked it and the game had ended on turn 61

https://i.imgur.com/S514aPO.png


So......... NO Junk........ NO crashing

Andy put his finger on the cause first try after a number of tests were run to elliminate other causes and the fix WAS in the smoke code

We will run some more checks then apply the fix to MBT and run some checks. That will take time to do and then probably issue a replacement EXE but it has not been decided if we will do that now or wait until the next official patch / update

To be determined . We know it fixed the edge junk and stops the crashes but now we need to test to see if there are any unintended consequences..... that can take time because initially we knew what to look for......with the "unintended consequences"........ we don't

That said I did not see anything odd happening with this save game running but I wasn't specically looking for things other than the known issues

Don

[DRG]

We now have a save game from MBT that shows this. Note that the junk gets placed over V hex markers, buildings and vehicles

https://i.imgur.com/2YJpPzi.png

So YES........ we are taking this seriously and are looking into it

Same save after code fix applied

https://i.imgur.com/x9ST6g3.png

Not we start looking for any "GOTCHA!"s

EDIT........ and I think I see one........ Note the building on fire in the first save with the junk is not burning in the save after the junk fix

GOTCHA!......

So....... this could take awhile yet. Also note there is a burning wreck in one and not the other but these screen shots may not be from the same point in the game so I need to double check that too

EDIT

GOOD NEWS ( for me.)

I restarted MBT with the release EXE and that first screen shot WAS from a later time in the game

[DRG]

I just fired up Omaha an I do see this on the left side, is this junk terrain?

https://i.imgur.com/HQN00LL.png


In this one particulae case that is not junk. The original sceanrio just used green grass to represent the ships and I changed it to pavement and missed that one spot..... now corrected

[DRG]

Good news........... so far

I found the save from later in the battle from the MBT Scenario WW3: Not so welcome that showed the junk, burning buildings and burning vehicles and using the EXE with the fix, the burning buildings and vehicles are still there but the edge junk is gone

Testing continues

[dTerm]

[...]
Andy put his finger on the cause first try after a number of tests were run to elliminate other causes and the fix WAS in the smoke code

We will run some more checks then apply the fix to MBT and run some checks. That will take time to do and then probably issue a replacement EXE but it has not been decided if we will do that now or wait until the next official patch / update

To be determined . We know it fixed the edge junk and stops the crashes but now we need to test to see if there are any unintended consequences..... that can take time because initially we knew what to look for......with the "unintended consequences"........ we don't

That said I did not see anything odd happening with this save game running but I wasn't specically looking for things other than the known issues

Don

Have you thought about "field testing" the fixed binary? Some of the crashes the players have encountered, were hard to reproduce on your computer, if I remember correctly.

Chances would also increase some more exotic, but easy to spot, consequences are found, I guess.

[DRG]

I said that in post #112

.......probably issue a replacement EXE but it has not been decided if we will do that now or wait until the next official patch / update

When we are done testing that question will be decided but we are not issuing anything until we are convinced that on our machines it is working properly. THEN we will decide if sending it out for " field testing" is warranted

[Dion]

Hi DRG, the icon used when you first access this thread was a pissed off frowning face, now its a smiling happy face, so it seems like you might have solved the problem. What was it, or is it still to early to tell for sure? Anyway it looks very promising and I hope a solution was found, because like I say, it happened to me too along time ago, and all that junk sure got ugly and got on my nerves. It was so bad, the fix could be practically considered a graphical upgrade!

[DRG]

Hi DRG, the icon used when you first access this thread was a pissed off frowning face, now its a smiling happy face, so it seems like you might have solved the problem. What was it, or is it still to early to tell for sure? Anyway it looks very promising and I hope a solution was found, because like I say, it happened to me too along time ago, and all that junk sure got ugly and got on my nerves. It was so bad, the fix could be practically considered a graphical upgrade!

Read the posts I made today and you will find the answer

[Dion]

So, smoke had something to do with it. I knew it, but I didn't want to say anything because I might have accidentally caused you guys to chase a false lead, as I really didn't know for sure, I just had a hunch it was smoke related. The way the junk just laid over everything, made it look like it was green smoke. When it happened to me, I vaguely remember it never showed up until someone laid a smoke screen. I wonder if fire in general could also cause it, since fire also causes smoke.

[Karagin]

Odd it was smoke, but yet no smoke was used in the battles when I saw the junk, unless the AI was dropping in off map.

[Dion]

Could be some of the off map, counter battery fire lands short and just happens to fall on the map.

[Karagin]

Could be some of the off map, counter battery fire lands short and just happens to fall on the map.

Makes sense.

[DRG]

Odd it was smoke, but yet no smoke was used in the battles when I saw the junk, unless the AI was dropping in off map.

Show me a save game of a battle in progress with no smoke at all anywhere on the map

[Karagin]

Odd it was smoke, but yet no smoke was used in the battles when I saw the junk, unless the AI was dropping in off map.

Show me a save game of a battle in progress with no smoke at all anywhere on the map

Okay, next one I get where the junk is at the start of the fight or shows up when I go to set up my forces on the left side of the map I will.

[DRG]

Suggestion: Play scenario #400 (Tarawa, 11/20/43) as AI vs AI and let the game run. Around turn 40 it always crashes for me.

If this is a bug I would assume it happens for everyone but, if not, then it's something on my end.

Thank you for your time.


I started scenario #400 just before bed last night and let it run AI vs AI using the experimental EXE

It was still running when I got up.

It was on Turn 50

No junk anywhere and obviously it did not crash the game

[DRG]

Odd it was smoke, but yet no smoke was used in the battles when I saw the junk, unless the AI was dropping in off map.

Show me a save game of a battle in progress with no smoke at all anywhere on the map

Okay, next one I get where the junk is at the start of the fight or shows up when I go to set up my forces on the left side of the map I will.

If you can show me a map with no units set up on the left side of the map where no turn had been played and there is junk terrain around the left edge I will be very interested in seeing it given the origins of this issue has been traced back to V1 so what you descibe has taken 18 years to be reported and it was reported after we annouced we appear to have found a fix for it.

[Dion]

From memory, I can't remember if it was only indirect smoke rounds that caused the junk or some other type of indirect artillery that caused the junk. It's also important to consider that off map artillery may be causing the junk. Anyway, I hope your testing methods are thorough because players will now be looking for it, and expect it to be fixed if a fix to the problem is issued.

[Karagin]

Show me a save game of a battle in progress with no smoke at all anywhere on the map

Okay, next one I get where the junk is at the start of the fight or shows up when I go to set up my forces on the left side of the map I will.

If you can show me a map with no units set up on the left side of the map where no turn had been played and there is junk terrain around the left edge I will be very interested in seeing it given the origins of this issue has been traced back to V1 so what you descibe has taken 18 years to be reported and it was reported after we annouced we appear to have found a fix for it.

I am not arguing with you Don, so stick a pin in the ego and save that for someone who is. My comment was I found it odd that is all. Get off your high horse over things. I get it you don't like it when folks are critical of things. Guess what, I am not being that. It's an odd bug that is all.

If I have a map that pops up the junk terrain prior to deploying troops and prior to the opening shots of the game going off, I will indeed post it. If the bug is indeed coming from the smoke code then hey great problems solved.

Save the hostile comments for those who are going full bore into things, which none of us here are doing.

[DRG]

If I have a map that pops up the junk terrain prior to deploying troops and prior to the opening shots of the game going off, I will indeed post it. .

Great...that is all I was asking for but reading things in to my posts that are not there has been going on for years. Welcome to the club

Repeated testing showed the catalyst was smoke generated on the map and "smoke" can be fires from a destroyed tank or barrel smoke from a fired mortar or smoke generated from arty impacts..... and of course, smoke shells

So YES both Andy and I would be very interested in seeing a map that has not had any battle played on it yet that shows the type of terrain junk along the west edge that was showing up after a few turns of battle.

IF one can be produced we can see if the fix Andy made corrects it when it is loaded with the experimental EXE.

[DRG]

Ran another test with MBT scenario #520 WW3, not so welcome which is a bit of a monster but it is only 30 turns

This is one we had reported as "unable to complete" through Sprapnel Customer service and we eventally figured out the game had been crashing around turn 22 and the save we were provided showed considerable amounts of edge junk along the western edge and was the example I used as the before and after in a post #113.

I let it run out AI vs AI and it ended normally with the end game screen on turn 31 and there was no random terrain junk anywhere.

So that is good news but testing continues

[Beeg]

"It could be related to anything that happens in the game....... that is what we are trying to find out"

This is a long shot but I had reported an issue maybe 12-18 months ago with large buildings disappearing from the map after being hit in the top left hex with large enough ordnance. I thought there was supposed to be a fix with the latest update but it's still happening. Could it be related somehow?

[DRG]

Large buildings have one registration hex. Usually the upper left portion but not always. I have seen them go away when making a map when something is placed though the registration hex but I cannot recal a hit that removed a the whole building

Was it tucked right into the top left hex of the map ?

In any event, It would seem that would be a separte issue to the rogue junk terrain issue..... BUT, if you look at the first image in post #113 there is enough junk there that could hide a building IF enough of it was on the map.... maybe

Do you still have this save game?

ANY saves that show the terrain junk on the left edge that anyone has I am interested in so I can run them with both the release EXE and the fix EXE to see if the fix removes it and if the game continues it stays removed. SO FAR any of the scenarios that have crash reports about them and edge junk that I have ran have all ran to completion with no return of edge junk

[Beeg]

Don,

We had an entire thread on this subject entitled "Vanishing Buildings" a while back and you agreed (eventually) that it was a minor bug and would be fixed. Here's the link to that thread, if it works in this forum...
https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=52671

[DRG]

Don,

We had an entire thread on this subject entitled "Vanishing Buildings" a while back and you agreed (eventually) that it was a minor bug and would be fixed. Here's the link to that thread, if it works in this forum...
https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=52671


Yes, I recal this now..... no save game to test and no screen shot to view except the one I posted. I did say "It's now on next year's to-do list" and then that list got crowded with other things.

Without a save game that shows it we cannot test the exact conditions you had in your game so if it does not do for us what you say it did for you it gets back burnered

I also provided a link to Imgur so larger screen shots can be posted but screenshots are not as good as a save game

[Beeg]

Honestly, I'm not that computer literate and I don't know how to zip and upload a save game. However, the disappearing building issue can be easily duplicated... just target any large building in any scenario (or test) with large enough ordnance to destroy the upper left hex of the building. It may take more than one hit but the entire building will eventually vanish. If you scroll the cursor over that area, the game still says the building is there but it's not seen on the map.

[DRG]

Well maybe after all these year you need to work on that "savvy" a bit ??


....the disappearing building issue can be easily duplicated... just target any large building in any scenario (or test) with large enough ordnance to destroy the upper left hex of the building.

"can be easily duplicated" you say ? Well that's interesting

Here is a multi hex building in the upper left corner of the map

https://i.imgur.com/H5oShvz.png

It was hit with all of this
https://i.imgur.com/HQVG73E.png

and this is what it looks like after getting hit with all of that

https://i.imgur.com/VIyCDa2.png


It's still on the map, it has not disappered and I did exactly what you said would ""easily" make it disappear

[Beeg]

There's no need to get snippy.

Please re-read the thread I referenced. It is an issue and dumping on me won't make it go away.

[DRG]

JUST FOR FUN

Lets expand on the test of that theory that this "can be easily duplicated"

Here are 6 multi hex buildings placed on a map

https://i.imgur.com/BCFOa7J.png

This is what is targeted on them

https://i.imgur.com/RcGOlPy.png

This is what they look like after all of that lands on them

https://i.imgur.com/FwTA7oS.png

Are all 6 still showing ?

Yes indeed they are

....... so maybe it's fixed?

[DRG]

And here is what it looks like after the rubble is bounced a second time and I have attached the save game so you can watch it on your machine ( save slot 76 SPWW2)

All the multis are still showing, All have been severly damaged and all have taken multiple hits to what would be their registration hex

https://i.imgur.com/4Gnampb.png

[Beeg]

Okay, I'm trying to upload 3 screenshots. I made a test scenario with 6 large airport buildings and hit them with 17cm arty. On the first 2 tries 2 buildings vanished right away. After that it took me multiple tries. It doesn't always happen... .like you said in the previous thread, it may only happen 20% of the time.

[DRG]

OK you have screen shots and I can try to replicate what you did using the screen shots as a guide but that is not nearly as useful as an actual save game and a zipped save game is easy to post, all that is needed is the CMT and DAT file from the saved slot zipped up and posted and then everyone can test it

I just bounced the rubble in my test again...... that is three times 20 batteries of 7.2 inch arty has hit them and the are still there

https://i.imgur.com/xtQWe1u.png

[Beeg]

I just had a thought... perhaps it's just the 'special' large buildings (airfield, factory, government, misc.)? I don't find the 'regular' large buildings disappearing either when I run the tests.

I made a simple test of 6 airfield buildings and 17cm arty and the buildings vanished about half the time when hit in the top left hex.

[DRG]

OK here are the building you had in your screenshots which are factory buildings not airport buildings...... they just ended up on the Japanese side of this test map which was cleared to base terrain as your screenshots show

https://i.imgur.com/cGpfpYl.png

This is them targeted by, again, 20 batteries of 7.2in Arty

https://i.imgur.com/zW6UT4m.png

This is the results of the first bombardment and all of these screenshots were taken immediatly after the bombardment. The map position was not changed

https://i.imgur.com/Mx6S0bg.png


then the second stonk

https://i.imgur.com/mtfpJ3T.png


Then targeted for the third go

https://i.imgur.com/MsfBG9G.png

Then after that

https://i.imgur.com/lNXAOTV.png


I watched each barrage very carefully. At no time did a building disapear

[Beeg]

I don't know what to say. I've (hopefully) attached the test scenario I created, which still has the buildings disappearing when I run it. Sometimes it doesn't happen on the first try and I normally start the scenario over to try again, instead of continuing the barrage.

[DRG]

OK "EXCITING NEWS" ( maybe.......)

Don Lazov set up a test sceanrio in MBT that in his case showed two buildings disapear and in the one I ran on my machine one building did the first time through but not the second but in the third run through 5 disapeared but in the fourth run though 3 did

"good news" no edge junk was produced but now we have an (almost) consistantly repeatable test scenario or at least one that will show the problem at least once.

WHY this did not happen in the tests I build..... IDK but I watched each of them carfully and nothing went anywhere

[dTerm]

I don't know what to say. I've (hopefully) attached the test scenario I created, which still has the buildings disappearing when I run it. Sometimes it doesn't happen on the first try and I normally start the scenario over to try again, instead of continuing the barrage.

Beeg, I was able to reproduce, what you have been describing. Do I understand correctly, that the buildings in your case reappear AFTER reloading the savegame?
That has been the case in my test run.

I attached a zipfile with both a screenshot, as well as the savegame file, I saved immediately after taking the screenshot.

[DRG]

I don't know what to say.

Me either........ when I build a test game/scenario they never disapear.....when other people build one, they do

[DRG]

I don't know what to say. I've (hopefully) attached the test scenario I created, which still has the buildings disappearing when I run it. Sometimes it doesn't happen on the first try and I normally start the scenario over to try again, instead of continuing the barrage.

Beeg, I was able to reproduce, what you have been describing. Do I understand correctly, that the buildings in your case reappear AFTER reloading the savegame?
That has been the case in my test run.

I attached a zipfile with both a screenshot, as well as the savegame file, I saved immediately after taking the screenshot.


I will have a look at this as well......... as to reappearing after the save game is loaded. I just saved Lazovs test that showed me buildings that had disapeared then reloaded it and the building that had been missing no longer were

But , again, in all these tests I have personally built and ran none lost any buildings ......why that is is yet another mystery but it would appear the only way to debug this will be with a freshly run example as reloading a save seems to reset them but AS USUAL more testing is needed

[DRG]

I don't know what to say. I've (hopefully) attached the test scenario I created, which still has the buildings disappearing when I run it. Sometimes it doesn't happen on the first try and I normally start the scenario over to try again, instead of continuing the barrage.

Beeg, I was able to reproduce, what you have been describing. Do I understand correctly, that the buildings in your case reappear AFTER reloading the savegame?
That has been the case in my test run.

I attached a zipfile with both a screenshot, as well as the savegame file, I saved immediately after taking the screenshot.


I ran your save but I had to move it to a differnet sceanio slot but it is set up nearly identical to the one I built but after the barrage one building was gone

https://i.imgur.com/bKhhh0S.png

but look at my example that had 3 bombardments made and NOTHING CHANGES

I saved it and reloaded it and :doh:

https://i.imgur.com/fuNbw2F.png

[DRG]

This is not a ( I think ! ) Saved battle vs Scenaio issue

dTerms example was..... it appears..... built as a battle not a scenario

????

Is that true ?

My tests were all built as generated battles and I edited the map to put the buildings on. Lazovs test was built as a scenario and was Beegs it appears

How they are built *might* be an important factor so I need some answers please

[dTerm]

I ran your save but I had to move it to a differnet sceanio slot but it is set up nearly identical to the one I built but after the barrage one building was gone

[...]

but look at my example that had 3 bombardments made and NOTHING CHANGES

I saved it and reloaded it and :doh:

[...]

I'm not getting your point here... :o

[dTerm]

This is not a ( I think ! ) Saved battle vs Scenaio issue

dTerms example was..... it appears..... built as a battle not a scenario

????

Is that true ?

My tests were all built as generated battles and I edited the map to put the buildings on. Lazovs test was built as a scenario and was Beegs it appears

How they are built *might* be an important factor so I need some answers please

Yes, your correct. It was a generated battle with a custom map. ;)

[DRG]

I ran your save but I had to move it to a differnet sceanio slot but it is set up nearly identical to the one I built but after the barrage one building was gone

[...]

but look at my example that had 3 bombardments made and NOTHING CHANGES

I saved it and reloaded it and :doh:

[...]

I'm not getting your point here... :o


In what way exactly ??

[DRG]

Yes, your correct. It was a generated battle with a custom map. ;)


OK, maybe we are actually getting somewhere....... that was a custom map

[DRG]

This is my latest test using a Custom map ( so one edited and saved then reloaded for use in the test )

I tried to recreate it exactly as the previous examples

https://i.imgur.com/eXvy9GK.png

This is how it looked after I cleared the smoke from the bombardment..... there are FOUR "missing" buildings

https://i.imgur.com/tyAA7CB.png

Then I saved it and reloaded the save

https://i.imgur.com/U42NkyS.png


My previous tests were all done from a generated battle. I started it, went to Edit map...... I edited the map and then targeted the buildings with arty and let the turn play out.. THE BATTLE WAS NOT SAVED THEN PLAYED

The critical difference **appears to be** the map had never undergone a save before the barrage was applied to it in the first examples I posted earlier today

This last example that shows building gone after the bombardment but returned after re-loading the save were all made as custom maps, then saved, then applied to a battle ( generated or scenario ) and those ones showed missing buildings

To confirm that will requiure all the same tests done again and again to see if the problem orginates with the saving of the map before the test is run OR if that is just a one-off co-incidence

Ain't this fun ?

[DRG]

Well thats a theory that ended in a dead end which is a good thing as it reduces the variables

I set up a new test from a generated battle using a map that was edited but not saved exactly like my earlier posts today

They are not the exact same buildings but that does not seem to matter

At set up

https://i.imgur.com/CyOjGUi.png

The targeting

https://i.imgur.com/9rgFndy.png



So it looks like the luck of the dice didn't show it in the earlier tests but these ones do and this one and the earlier one were both done as a Generated battle that had the map edited then the bombardment targeted on the buildings so it APPEARS that the problem is not in Map saving which, I guess, is "good news" .......it's one less variable


MISSING BUILDINGS

https://i.imgur.com/jlHD2VP.png


After re-loading the save the buildings are back

https://i.imgur.com/y2DxGQE.png


WHY the earlier example that had three complete arty attacks with the same arty and didn't show a missing building is a question I hope I find the answer to but for now remains a mystery

[Mobhack]

Big buildings use a particular larger graphic that is removed if the "key hex" is destroyed. Then the big building graphic goes away and is replaced by a 1 hex rubble graphic as with any other bult up area rubble.

The key hex is not necessarily "part" of the building AFAIR - there are a couple of them where the key hex is on the paved part "outside" the house part.

Any damage to the area "under" the big building graphic causes individual rubble hexes as the hex is flagged as built up area.

This has been the case since the original SP1 came out way back, it is how it has always been - and is baked into the original SSI code. It seems to have been a quick "kludge fix" to let the game have these factories and hangars etc. Multiple hex buidlings have always been squirrely because they were a kludge, leading to road hexes being marked as "BUA", laying and then deleting "large" buildings when making maps leaving hexes marked as BUA (as they dont clear their area properly) and so on since the game debuted.

Any attempt to "fix" that would be a horrendous effort to fix the original kludge that SSI introduced. That wont be happening.

[DRG]

.........I restarted that save and pounded those buildings for 5 more turns and none "disapeared"

........and for those of you that do not remember SP1 and SP2...... this happened then too. ( AH ! I see Andy beat me too it )

The workaround to this ( for now and maybe forever ) is IF you see a large multi hex building go missing, save the game as soon as you see it and restart the game with the save game and that seems to be the reset

[zovs66]

Well it was fun creating the scenario, sort of jump started my creativity.

:D

[DRG]

OK........ this is the last thing I am posting today. It is not a "fix" per se but it is a solution

This is the "Vanish" save that was posted by dTurn after the lower right building vanished leaving only the rubble

https://i.imgur.com/chIjt5w.png

At that point I simply pressed the END GAME red arrow button

Then I went to the save game menu and started the AUTOSAVED GAME

https://i.imgur.com/V3OYxuv.png

The autosave saved the game at the exact point I pressed the end game button so when the game started up it started the game up right at that exact point only now the building is back and the turn can be continued with the building restored

[dTerm]

[...]

The autosave saved the game at the exact point I pressed the end game button so when the game started up it started the game up right at that exact point only now the building is back and the turn can be continued with the building restored

Yep, loading the autosave only in case of disappearing buildings, is of cource more convenient than saving every turn manually. Good enough workaround for me. :)

Thank you, Gentlemen! :up:

[DRG]

It may not be the most idea solution but it allow the game to be re-set with a minimal effort.... a couple seconds really

[Beeg]

Thanks everyone. I'm glad I'm not losing my mind. :crazy:

The save game workaround is not ideal, as Don said, but this issue only affects a very small percentage of gameplay and most players will probably never encounter it or notice it, I would think.

I didn't mean to divert the discussion about junk hexes and game crashes (which is more important) but I thought this might be something related to that.

Plus... I learned how to zip and upload files! :banana:

[zovs66]

Personally I think this whole discussion reveals that some of the issues that folks notice (or bugs if you will) have been in the game and the code for that matter since 1995 when SSI first made SP1. In many cases Don and Andy have fixed them, but in the buildings going poof its so convoluted (the code that they inherited) that its not worth risking breaking the iceberg (or one's mental state, I have been in situations when the javascript code is a complete and utter bugged up mess and its better just to start over then unwind and figure out the intentions of some dude 20 years ago).

[DRG]

I suspect some will feel uncomfortable pressing END GAME without saving but doing that creates an autosave.

As the testing I posted showed it can take a LONG time for this to happen in some cases and it wasn't until Don sent me his tests that I saw it this time though and then I hit my test buildings with arty harder and saw it but in his test not nearly as much arty as I used managed to make a few go away.

I suspect a lot of players may not even notice it especially ones that might play out a turn or two per sitting because their save restores the building but in the case of the END GAME procedure, autosave takes a snapshot of that point the END GAME button is pressed so starting the autosave takes you to the exact point you were when you pressed it and the buildings are restored

The message for the End game button is "End the Game and EXIT" at the top of the screen
Then you see at the bottom of the screen "Do you really want to end the game Y/N "

I may change the first message to something like

"End the Game, autosave and EXIT"

or

"End the game and Exit (The game will be saved in the Auto-Saved game slot)

Final result ( both games )

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16937&stc=1&d=1697550725

[zovs66]

Both of those would work, the first is sufficient enough for me but the second may be more detailedly explanitorory for others.

[DRG]

I had to add a bit more detail because Autosave for that is different than the autosave for PBEM or maps

[dTerm]

[...]

I may change the first message to something like

"End the Game, autosave and EXIT"

or

"End the game and Exit (The game will be saved in the Auto-Saved game slot)


Wouldn't it be a good idea to change the message for the END TURN button in a similar way? :idea: :ahh:

[DRG]

We are looking at various wordings

[dTerm]

I suspect some will feel uncomfortable pressing END GAME without saving but doing that creates an autosave.

As the testing I posted showed it can take a LONG time for this to happen in some cases and it wasn't until Don sent me his tests that I saw it this time though and then I hit my test buildings with arty harder and saw it but in his test not nearly as much arty as I used managed to make a few go away.

I suspect a lot of players may not even notice it especially ones that might play out a turn or two per sitting because their save restores the building but in the case of the END GAME procedure, autosave takes a snapshot of that point the END GAME button is pressed so starting the autosave takes you to the exact point you were when you pressed it and the buildings are restored

The message for the End game button is "End the Game and EXIT" at the top of the screen
Then you see at the bottom of the screen "Do you really want to end the game Y/N "

I may change the first message to something like

"End the Game, autosave and EXIT"

or

"End the game and Exit (The game will be saved in the Auto-Saved game slot)

Final result ( both games )

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16937&stc=1&d=1697550725


While testing the fixed binary (which appears to consistently solve the junk terrain issues on my machine btw. :up:) I observed, that in single-player and hotseat games it's not the red END TURN button that creates the autosave, but the START TURN button on the Start Turn Screen, when you continue playing.

Can anyone confirm this, or am I missing something here? :pc:

[DRG]

Well this is weird. Will need to investigate further. I thought for certain that it was saving at the point the red up arrow was pressed

[DRG]

OK......

1/ I started a simple game, moved a unit then pressed the red up arrow then went to the auto-save slot and started it and that game was back to where I was before I moved the unit

2/ I started an old save game, move a unit then presses the red up arrow and started it and that game was back to where I was before I moved the unit

3/ I started a different old save game.... lets call it #3, I moved a unit then pressed the red up arrow button then went to the save game screen and started the autosave and it was old save game #3....... BEFORE I moved the unit:doh:


SO it would APPEAR your observation is correct. The autosave is being made when the game ( originally ) loads. :shock:

OK.... learned something new today........:re:

We will look into this and get the procedure strainghend out and the working adjusted for the next release

That does explain why the building were restored when loading the autosave though........

[dTerm]

[...]

That does explain why the building were restored when loading the autosave though........

But from what I observed, it doesn't make any practical difference regarding this issue. It works nonetheless.

I just wanted to let you know, because of the wording for the END TURN message you changed. ;)

[dTerm]

Ah, ok, after reading you post again, I realized, that's what you mean.

:doh:

[DRG]

..........This has been a l o n g journey

[DRG]

FWIW......

I just tried a new test with the "Vanish" game that had been posted

I hammered the buildings until one disappeared then saved normally.

When I restarted, the multi-hex building that had only shown rubble had been restored. ( WITH THE RUBBLE....which is as it should be )

Anyone interested can try that and report that they see the same thing.

EDIT

This was done with MBT but the test I ran with SPWW2 did the same

This is after the multi hex building had been hammered by arty and disappeared
https://i.imgur.com/fCV2gQM.png

I then saved the game in a regular save slot then restarted

https://i.imgur.com/X645Gqp.png

The building returns on restarting the save

[DRG]

If anyone sees a building disapear check the registration hex ( typically the upper left hex of the series it had been in ) BEFORE it is saved and let me know if hovering the cursor over that hex shows it to be rough and after you save and restart does it show "paved"

The theory I am exploring now is if the registration hex is turned to rough that is when the building disappears.

After saving and restarting the building will be restored but report the hex under the registration hex is Paved

IF you build a map and place a multi over a rough hex the registration hex ( and some others usually ) will report "paved" and I think that change to rough during as bombardment might be the key to why they disappear

SO FAR I have not found a multi that shows rough under the registration hex

[DRG]

One step closer to solving this

This is a test map after bombardment. Note even though this is a lot of rubble the buildings still show


https://i.imgur.com/0jdHp5t.png



This is a test map after I placed rough on every multi hex building registration hex


https://i.imgur.com/QmOJtKI.png


It would appear if rough is created in the registration hex of a building (any building ) during a bombardment the building will disappear but re-appear after the save is restarted because the process of saving and restarting removes the temporary rough hex that was created

That's the working theory ATM

[DRG]

8 buildings placed

https://i.imgur.com/mSACNw1.png

8 buildings with rough put into the registration hex

https://i.imgur.com/uri8xgs.png

[dTerm]

If anyone sees a building disapear check the registration hex ( typically the upper left hex of the series it had been in ) BEFORE it is saved and let me know if hovering the cursor over that hex shows it to be rough and after you save and restart does it show "paved"

The theory I am exploring now is if the registration hex is turned to rough that is when the building disappears.

After saving and restarting the building will be restored but report the hex under the registration hex is Paved


I again ran the Vanish game from earlier and observed the following:

Before any of the triggering bombardment all the registration hex report 'clear'.

After it, but before saving, the reg hex of the disappearing building reports 'rough'.

After loading the saved game, the hex reports as 'paved road'.

If I understood you correctly, that's what you are looking for.

[DRG]

If I understood you correctly, that's what you are looking for.

That is what I observed as well but I belive when this happens it is a "false rough" which is why the building disappears and why it reapears when you load the save as a multi hex building cannot exist on a rough hex

If you build a map with a large rough area when you put the building down on the rough and check the registration hex you will find it reports being paved. I think this is part of the problem as I belive it should be clearing down to clear terrain not paved but when it is hit hard with arty and it is given a rough classification that is when the buildings go away and a save and restart then shows that rough hex as paved just as it would if you were building a map with multi hex buildings over rough

SOMEWHERE in that is the key but with this we may have found the lock the key fits into

I think too that is why some old maps that have had terrain put down and re-done a few times leave invisible roads that are only detected when you run the cursor over them or you notice your unit moves further than you think it should

I also think this is an O L D issue

[Karagin]

Is this similar to the issue I brought up where the building with drop road tiles around larger ones? I mentioned last year in MBT. I saw it a couple of times in WW2.

[DRG]

Is this similar to the issue I brought up where the building with drop road tiles around larger ones? I mentioned last year in MBT. I saw it a couple of times in WW2.


It is possible they are related in some way. I have found road hexes just to the left or right of a multi, but some of that is how a rectangular building fits into a Hex grid.

I have not found any above or below a multi

EDIT

NOTE: if you place multis on clear terrain there is no paved round underlay that I have ever found. You get that when you put on over rough terrain so *GOOD PRACTICE* when placing multi hex buildings in a custom map or scenario would be to make sure that there is NO ROUGH terrain anywhere near the building which means hit the area you want the entire building to sit with something like grass or sand or even tall grass and then put the building down..... grey sand is good to represent gravel

[DRG]

For the disappearance of multi hex building I belive it is safe to say it is directly the result of the underlying terrain of a multi hex buildings registration hex (normally the top left ) being temporarily turned into rough terrain but it can be a gold plated B!TCH to get it to convert one sometimes with this as proof

https://i.imgur.com/ZnRYnsz.png

I hammered that over and over and could not get the building to disappear

BUT... I could not find a hex showing "rough" anywhere and the test was to see if rough could be created anywhere BUT under a multi registration hex

[Karagin]

When I have seen building do the vanishing trick, it's normally in a large urban area, the Battle for Rome scenario is one that I have seen in, I think it was that, need to check again, but it cost me a vehicle when I went cool clear terrain and found out other wise as drove into the wrong hex without paying attention to things.

[DRG]

....another little tidbit of info


A multi hex building placed on rough will automagically change that rough to paved road
A Multi placed on clear terrain will not BUT..... if you beat it up with arty and create rough in that hex once the game is saved and reloaded the game will convert that rough to paved road

[DRG]

When I have seen building do the vanishing trick, it's normally in a large urban area, the Battle for Rome scenario is one that I have seen in, I think it was that, need to check again, but it cost me a vehicle when I went cool clear terrain and found out other wise as drove into the wrong hex without paying attention to things.

So the temporary solution is IF you are in an urban environment with large multihex buildings that have been hammered with arty. Save the game then restart and the building will be restored and you won't bump into it accidentally.

The issue is NOT going to change unless we figure out why hexes under multi-hex buildings will vanish when the registration hex for the building is converted to rough so half the battle for players is understanding why it happens and what I wrote is why it happens..... the registration hex is being converted to rough and multi hex buildings over rough need to have that hex be anything but rough or it will disappear until the save game is reloaded

[DRG]

When I have seen building do the vanishing trick, it's normally in a large urban area, the Battle for Rome scenario is one that I have seen in, I think it was that, need to check again, but it cost me a vehicle when I went cool clear terrain and found out other wise as drove into the wrong hex without paying attention to things.

And we have this

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16942&stc=1&d=1698346258

If you see that message even if you don't see a building don't press Y. ASSUME the building is there, you just don't see it


We are actively looking into a solution for this but there are warnings......don't ignore them

[Mobhack]

There is definately some repair code for buildings and other stuff that I wrote a decade or more back that cures the problem if you load a game from the save file. Multi hex buildings were always a problem from the SSI days on, and we have been fixing them like forever it seems...

It will likely require a small fix to the code that rubbles buildings which seems to be placing a rough hex there sometimes, either that or simply perhaps by calling the map repair code at the end of the player and/or AI phase, or the bombardment phase since it only seems to happen with arty terrain "modification":).

I may try bombarding a test multi hex building with an SU-152 in direct fire mode and see if blowing the registration hex to blazes with that mode of fire also shows the problem - it would be far simpler for testing than randomly pounding the ground with all the heavy artillery of a corps to see the effect.

[DRG]

I may try bombarding a test multi hex building with an SU-152 in direct fire mode and see if blowing the registration hex to blazes with that mode of fire also shows the problem - it would be far simpler for testing than randomly pounding the ground with all the heavy artillery of a corps to see the effect.

You will find that EXTREMELY unproductive

[Karagin]

When I have seen building do the vanishing trick, it's normally in a large urban area, the Battle for Rome scenario is one that I have seen in, I think it was that, need to check again, but it cost me a vehicle when I went cool clear terrain and found out other wise as drove into the wrong hex without paying attention to things.

And we have this

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16942&stc=1&d=1698346258

If you see that message even if you don't see a building don't press Y. ASSUME the building is there, you just don't see it


We are actively looking into a solution for this but there are warnings......don't ignore them


Yeah...this was BEFORE the warning thing was a thing so what looked clear open terrain wasn't. Now I am much more careful in urban fights. like no tanks through buildings at all. I let the AI do that.

[DRG]

Here is what I know after a lot of testing

First some background
// pattern for multi hex buildings in code is:
// X X X X
// X X X X
// X X X X
This is a line of code that represents a multi-hex building

{0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 0, 0, 1, 1, 0}

so that building would look like this

0000
0110
0110

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16943&stc=1&d=1698497358
In that example the outlined red hex is the registration hex


The real issue has nothing to do with rough terrain or paved road that is put under some of the multi-hex buildings
The real issue is the creation of rubble in the registration hex of the multi-hex building changes the terrain under the registration hex.......sometimes...... the creation of rubble there does not always 100% make the building invisible
There are multi-hex buildings that do not have part of the building in the registration hex. Those buildings will not go invisible during gameplay because no rubble is created where there is no building in the hex to turn to rubble
If a multi-hex building is placed on a map using either the in-game map editor or the advanced editor and the registration hex is turned to rubble using the "add heavy damage" button the building will disappear and re-appear almost instantly and it may show faster or slower depending on the speed of your PC
Once a building has been restored that way I have not yet been able to get it to disappear after it was restored


There is code that fixes buildings that Andy put in years ago

The "trick" right now is finding the spot it is put into the map-making code that fixes the buildings while heavy damage is applied and then figuring out where the ideal place for this would be in the general game code so that this issue is no longer a problem......

...and it IS a problem for all games that have multi hex buildings in them that have a "building" in the registration hexes but it is less of an issue with PBEM as there IS a restore code that is activated when a game is saved and then restarted as would be normal for PBEM. Where this is a problem is when game turns are played one after the other without saving and restarting the game from a save

So now you know what we know, rest assured we are looking into it