Question about Ukraine OOB...

[Warhero]

Well am I blind or what but I don't find any other vehicles for BMP Rifle Co than M113G4DK:confused:... Where are BMP's? BTR Rifle Co has many other vehicles to choose (it's OK).

Warhero

[scorpio_rocks]

Ukraine OOB - Formation #112 BMP Rifle Co uses class 25 APC (Track) vehicles

from Mobhack:
Searching for Units of class 25 APC (Track)
329 - BWP-1 - Available 04/122 to 12/125
330 - Pbv 501 - Available 04/122 to 12/125
331 - BMP-1U SLAT - Available 01/114 to 12/125
332 - MT-LB - Available 08/091 to 12/125
333 - BMP-1U Shkval - Available 01/109 to 12/125
334 - BMP-1B - Available 08/091 to 12/105
335 - BMP-2 - Available 08/091 to 12/091
336 - BMP-2 - Available 01/092 to 12/115
337 - BMP-2D - Available 01/095 to 12/115
338 - BMP-2K - Available 01/100 to 12/115
340 - BMP-3 - Available 08/091 to 12/096
341 - BMP-3 - Available 01/097 to 12/115
342 - BMP-3 - Available 01/116 to 12/125
345 - BMP-2 - Available 01/116 to 12/125
346 - BMP-2D - Available 01/116 to 12/125
347 - BMP-2K - Available 01/116 to 12/125
348 - Marder 1A3 - Available 04/123 to 12/125
349 - Marder 1 A3+ - Available 04/123 to 12/125
350 - M113A3 - Available 06/122 to 12/125
720 - YPR-765 - Available 05/122 to 12/125
724 - M113AS4 - Available 09/122 to 12/125
725 - M113G4DK - Available 09/122 to 12/125
727 - CV9040 - Available 04/123 to 12/125
729 - FV432 Bulldog - Available 04/123 to 12/125
794 - MT-LBM-6MA(C) - Available 08/122 to 12/125 *has X3 Radio Code*

Probably more options than any other OOB...

[Mustang]

Ukraine had only 4 bmp3 in service at the start of the war. Its only real apc was the m113.

[DRG]

Well am I blind or what but I don't find any other vehicles for BMP Rifle Co than M113G4DK:confused:... Where are BMP's? BTR Rifle Co has many other vehicles to choose (it's OK).

Warhero



FOR EVERYONE

If anyone asks a question like that the formation number and the year and month need to be included so we can check the same formation you are commenting on

For that formation ( 112) with the date set to August 2023 I see this on page two of the selection screen
https://i.imgur.com/QOjH4ag.png

so there is an abundant number of choices beyond M113G4DK. The fact that some might be very rare is irrelevant

[Mobhack]

Moved the thread to the correct sub-forum

[Warhero]

Hmm I don't have that number (112) as seen in screenshot at all in my SPMBT. I installed latest update some weeks ago. Do I have to re-install it again?

Warhero

[Warhero]

Hey, I found reason! I didn't noticed that "Next" button under the screen:D. Ok problem solved:D. Sorry wrong "alert".

Warhero

[DRG]

hmm i don't have that number (112) as seen in screenshot at all in my spmbt. I installed latest update some weeks ago. Do i have to re-install it again?

Warhero

Start the game using Gameoptions ( the game should always be started using game options )

GOTO the MIC tab at the top of the screen and select " Show ID numbers" and set that to ON and you will see this for units and formations when you are purchasing

https://i.imgur.com/N6kb171.png

https://i.imgur.com/tWz3nsZ.png


From the Game guide

Show ID Numbers- Sets the game to show the unit and formation numbers in the game. Generally this is for OOB designers use, but it is very useful for reporting bugs to the design team, as you can then say "Unit 123 - Leo 1" which will point us to the exact unit in question, especially if there are several Leo 1's in that OOB.

[Mustang]

Ukraine has too many options, most of the equipment they have is just starting to get operational.

[Mobhack]

And the UKR OOB data was all entered over the last year when we only had general reports of what was being supplied. Once (if) we have reliable documented in service dates in the future, the OOB will be updated to reflect that. So perhaps next March or thereabouts, some data may change,

Meanwhile if you don't like the choices we made with what publically available data there was available then there is the Mobhack OOB editor made available with the game so you can edit your own personal "take" on the data, should you so wish.

[DRG]

Ukraine has too many options, most of the equipment they have is just starting to get operational.


Well then you should have no trouble providing hard data with sources we can cross-check to support your idea

If we don't include something we get complaints..... we get them when we do put in rare types too. Everything in there was put in because info existed that supported adding it even if there were only a handful in a shop somewhere that does not mean they were not used

[Mustang]

Ukraine has too many options, most of the equipment they have is just starting to get operational.


Well then you should have no trouble providing hard data with sources we can cross-check to support your idea

If we don't include something we get complaints..... we get them when we do put in rare types too. Everything in there was put in because info existed that supported adding it even if there were only a handful in a shop somewhere that does not mean they were not used

Sources are unclear what is happening. So far they used a handful of Bradley, leopard etc in combat all of which were lost to mines and its not clear what operational capacity they have.

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/ukraine-will-receive-additional-m2-bradley-ifvs-in-the-new-u-s-assistance-package/

Servicemen of the Armed Forces of Ukraine will be trained to operate with Bradley in Germany.

That was in January, if training takes a reasonable amount of time then maybe they will be ready in 2024?

The timelines given for training on everything are very brief. I heard that they are supposed to be operating f 16s right now and other reports say 2025.

For "long campaign" purposes having large Bradley and Abrams forces in Ukraine seems like a 2024-25 thing, all they have seen so far is some minefield losses.

Just as a comparison, in North Africa rommel had 5 Stugs out of thousands of tanks. Nobody includes the Stug in Africa campaign scenarios because they were less than 1% of the force.

We can have a policy where a unit has to be at least 1% of the active forces of an army for it to be in the game, or have seen meaningful combat experience, so we're not including all the minor equipment and prototypes as is the normal practice with any OOB.

https://www.army-technology.com/news/ukraine-receive-20-more-marder-ifv-from-germany/?cf-view

Using the marder as an example, they received 20 in March and the article implies 10 per month starting in July. Considering Ukraine has thousands of infantry vehicles the marders may not make up 1% the force even now. Buying two "mechanized rifle co" of marders is more than their entire army has.

Then the British and other IFVs might be even less.

[DRG]

simple DON'T BUY THEM IF YOU THINK DOING SO UPSETS WHATEVER YOU THINK IS "CORRECT"

They are in the OOB because they are in country and in many cases more rare vehicles are given a rare rating for the AI but the human player can decide on his own if he wants them or not......it's call " free choice"

Since you know so much about the percentages it will be easy for you to do so

The game is set up so the people who care about minutia like " is there enough of these to even make up a platoon ?" can decide what to buy and those that don't can just play the game and if they use too much of something that is rare it's a "what if" battle because 99% are "what if " anyway.

[Karagin]

Question I have is how much of the "rare" number percentage stuff does the AI pick once it starts picking from that stuff?

I am tracking that players can freely choose to pick what they want or don't want or mod the OOB to remove things they don't want in there.

[DRG]

How the AI picks things can be convoluted and depends on if they are rare ( radio code ending in 1 ) or common ( radio code ending in 2 ) or radio code ending in zero which is more or less " average

BUT

The AI tends to pick from the bottom of the list up and there are randoms built into everything in the game to stop it from being predictable but does seem if the AI finds too many rare units in a row it can sometimes just decide to pick one anyway and in the Ukraine OOB for example, the "western" armour is generally near the end of the list and the Russian origin units are more near the front

BUT

The picker may go all the way up one time then work it's way down or it may pick from the bottom of the list. We sometimes have had to make things rare near the end of the list just to keep the AI from buying it too often

[Mustang]

How the AI picks things can be convoluted and depends on if they are rare ( radio code ending in 1 ) or common ( radio code ending in 2 ) or radio code ending in zero which is more or less " average

BUT

The AI tends to pick from the bottom of the list up and there are randoms built into everything in the game to stop it from being predictable but does seem if the AI finds too many rare units in a row it can sometimes just decide to pick one anyway and in the Ukraine OOB for example, the "western" armour is generally near the end of the list and the Russian origin units are more near the front

BUT

The picker may go all the way up one time then work it's way down or it may pick from the bottom of the list. We sometimes have had to make things rare near the end of the list just to keep the AI from buying it too often

If we apply this logic consistently that 10-20 vehicles of a type is enough to count as a real amount then this would change a lot of OOB.

Israel has Pereh ATGM. America has the BAe Nyala and a bunch of minor foreign vehicles. When you get into ammo types there's arguably a lot of different stuff that isn't represented. STAFF rounds, tungsten vs steel projectiles, etc.

But I understand if in this one case it's okay for Ukraine to have marders, which to my awareness it has not used.

[DRG]

But I understand if in this one case it's okay for Ukraine to have marders, which to my awareness it has not used.


Forbes reports they have as part of the 82nd Brigade. Your 10-20 min vehicle idea is not going to be applied

Nothing is going to change in the OOB unless someone proves without a doubt that the vehicle was never in Ukraine and that kind of info might take a while to come to light.

In the meantime don't use it if you don't think you should

[Mustang]

But I understand if in this one case it's okay for Ukraine to have marders, which to my awareness it has not used.


Forbes reports they have as part of the 82nd Brigade. Your 10-20 min vehicle idea is not going to be applied

Nothing is going to change in the OOB unless someone proves without a doubt that the vehicle was never in Ukraine and that kind of info might take a while to come to light.

In the meantime don't use it if you don't think you should

Understood. The one thing I would add to the OOB is the large partisan and irregular forces on both sides, if you have to add anything to the OOB it would be the irregular forces first.

[DRG]

The one thing I would add to the OOB is the large partisan and irregular forces on both sides, if you have to add anything to the OOB it would be the irregular forces first.

They are really only of use in scenarios and they can easily be created by the scenario designer from existing units in either the main two OOB's or the Red or Green OOB. Both Red and Green have "rebel" formations that can be used for that renamed

[Mustang]

The one thing I would add to the OOB is the large partisan and irregular forces on both sides, if you have to add anything to the OOB it would be the irregular forces first.

They are really only of use in scenarios and they can easily be created by the scenario designer from existing units in either the main two OOB's or the Red or Green OOB. Both Red and Green have "rebel" formations that can be used for that renamed

Got it. I agree that the OOBs should just contain tanks and primary combat forces, I'm just saying that if someone insists on there being "not enough units" then you can just tell them that.

The real case where this would be an issue is if America goes to war with Mexico like Republicans are asking. Huge variety of technicals and nonstandard equipment. How would you model a Mexican cartel? It's not even a green OOB, it would be more like a Somalia or Mujahideen OOB.

Point is there needs to be a threshold of how many units something has for it to be included in an OOB, adding things that aren't yet operationally capable like Ukraine APCs is stretching it.

The Sherman E8 is a technical. Already in SP1 the units were vaguely defined. Jumbo Sherman's were built one off when the factory decided to add armor to a tank, it's not a specific model.

Likewise Ukraine apparently has a upgraded Bradley that takes 122mm hits. This kind or stuff has to be decided case by case and its best to just leave the OOB as it is which is already very generous and just say you only include MBTs and important vehicles.

And if someone decides to build a Mexican drug war scenario or other irregular conflicts I don't think the OOB should be changed, the game already has enough units that can represent whatever there is going to be. If any OOB is missing anything it's going to be partisan infantry and stuff that isn't supposed to be there, all the important equipment is already there, actually too much of it.

[MarkSheppard]

Sources are unclear what is happening. So far they used a handful of Bradley, leopard etc in combat all of which were lost to mines and its not clear what operational capacity they have.

:rolleyes:

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-ukrainian.html

52 M2A2 Bradley ODS-SA: (1, destroyed) (2, destroyed) (3 and 4, destroyed) (5, destroyed) (6, destroyed) (7, 8, 9 and 10, destroyed) (11, destroyed) (12, destroyed) (13, destroyed) (14, destroyed) (15, destroyed) (16, destroyed) (17, destroyed) (18, destroyed) (19, destroyed) (20, destroyed) (21, destroyed) (22, destroyed) (23, destroyed) (24, destroyed) (25, destroyed) (26, destroyed) (1, damaged) (2, damaged) (3, 4, and 5, damaged) (6, damaged) (7, damaged) (8 and 9, damaged) (10, damaged) (11, damaged) (12, damaged) (13 and 14, damaged) (15 and 16, damaged) (17, damaged) (18, damaged) (19, damaged) (20, damaged) (21, damaged) (1, 2 and 3, damaged and abandoned) (4, damaged and abandoned) (5, damaged and abandoned)

[MarkSheppard]

From Oryx:

Delivered/Pledged
40 AMX-10 RC(R)s [Delivered from March 2023 onwards]

Losses
4 AMX-10 RC(R): (1, destroyed) (1 and 2, abandoned) (1, captured)

10% of the AMX-10 fleet has been heavily damaged so far, with one of them ending up in Patriot Park in Moscow.

==================

Delivered/Pledged
14 Leopard 2A4s [February 2023 and March 2023]
10 Leopard 2A4s [April and June 2023]
8 Leopard 2A4s [March 2023]
8 Leopard 2A4s [March 2023]
40 x Leo 2A4 Total

18 Leopard 2A6s [March 2023]
3 Leopard 2A6s [March 2023]
21 x Leo 2A6 Total

Losses
6 Leopard 2A4: (1, destroyed) (2, destroyed) (1, damaged) (2, damaged) (3, damaged) (4, damaged)

9 Leopard 2A6: (1, destroyed) (2, destroyed) (3, destroyed) (1, damaged) (2, damaged) (3, damaged) (1, damaged and abandoned) (2, damaged and abandoned) (3, damaged and abandoned)

So let's recap....15% of the Leopard 2A4s in AFU have been damaged in some way, as well as 42% of Leopard 2A6s.

"Limited use" :rolleyes:

[MarkSheppard]

As for Marders; they literally only just started seeing action since 8/20 or so; so the bean counters have yet to catch up with them.

https://twitter.com/Ukraina8648545/status/1694519667547590687

German-made Marder 1A3 tank, in service with the 82nd Assault Brigade of Ukraine. The brigade recently entered the Ukrainian counter-offensive in the Zaporizhzhia region.

https://twitter.com/Military_oO/status/1694384373192139088

German Marder 1A3 infantry fighting vehicle stuck in trench and abandoned

BTW, apparently the 82nd BDE has Challenger 2s, so we should see Challenger II in action "soon".

https://twitter.com/ChallengerInUA/status/1697353594440216768

The 82nd Air Assault Brigade of Ukraine, according to reports, has overcome the first anti-tank obstacles of the most heavily fortified Russian defense line. The 82nd operates all of Ukraine's Challenger 2 main battle tanks. No vids as yet!

But it's "coming", because Ukrainian propaganda is starting to HYPE the chally 2.

https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1697923706356408351

The 🇬🇧British Challenger 2 tank in service with the Airborne Assault Forces of the Armed Forces of 🇺🇦Ukraine in combat conditions and its advantages

💭 The accuracy of a British tank shot is comparable to a sniper rifle. If there were more such armored vehicles, we would be able to achieve a greater effect in the battle with the enemy, - notes the Ukrainian tanker.

[MarkSheppard]

For "long campaign" purposes having large Bradley and Abrams forces in Ukraine seems like a 2024-25 thing, all they have seen so far is some minefield losses.

Speaking of Abrams -- I think we're getting VERY close to them in Ukraine -- Late September, early October from the two datapoints:

Datapoint #1

https://www.reuters.com/world/us-send-its-first-depleted-uranium-rounds-ukraine-sources-2023-09-01/

WASHINGTON, Sept 1 (Reuters) - The Biden administration will for the first time send controversial armor-piercing munitions containing depleted uranium to Ukraine, according to a document seen by Reuters and separately confirmed by two U.S. officials.

The rounds, which could help destroy Russian tanks, are part of a new military aid package for Ukraine set to be unveiled in the next week. The munitions can be fired from U.S. Abrams tanks that, according to a person familiar with the matter, are expected be delivered to Ukraine in the coming weeks.

Datapoint #2:
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/first-ukrainian-m1-abrams-tank-crews-complete-training

According to a report from Politico yesterday, citing information from spokesperson Col. Martin O’Donnell, around 200 Ukrainian Armed Forces personnel have undergone training at different U.S. Army facilities in Germany. The report added that these soldiers “recently completed one of the last phases of the program, a combined arms, battalion force-on-force exercise at Hohenfels Training Area.”

...

Quoting an unnamed Pentagon official and “another person familiar with the discussions,” Politico now reports that the first 10 of these tanks will arrive in Ukraine in mid-September.

The same Pentagon official said that this batch of tanks was now “undergoing final refurbishments,” after which they can be dispatched to Ukraine, with the remaining 21 examples of the Abrams also due to arrive in-country during the fall.

[MarkSheppard]

New icons for next year :p

https://twitter.com/Archer83Able/status/1691512191499845632
British-delivered Challenger 2 tank in service of the Ukrainian military with metal cope cage established on the turret for protection against Russian UAVs/loitering munitions.

https://twitter.com/lost_warinua/status/1697949555881283601
T-72B3 with ERA laden Cope Cage

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1697699616618123316/photo/1
M109L SPH with the biggest cope cage I've seen yet.

[Mustang]

Sources are unclear what is happening. So far they used a handful of Bradley, leopard etc in combat all of which were lost to mines and its not clear what operational capacity they have.

:rolleyes:

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-ukrainian.html

52 M2A2 Bradley ODS-SA: (1, destroyed) (2, destroyed) (3 and 4, destroyed) (5, destroyed) (6, destroyed) (7, 8, 9 and 10, destroyed) (11, destroyed) (12, destroyed) (13, destroyed) (14, destroyed) (15, destroyed) (16, destroyed) (17, destroyed) (18, destroyed) (19, destroyed) (20, destroyed) (21, destroyed) (22, destroyed) (23, destroyed) (24, destroyed) (25, destroyed) (26, destroyed) (1, damaged) (2, damaged) (3, 4, and 5, damaged) (6, damaged) (7, damaged) (8 and 9, damaged) (10, damaged) (11, damaged) (12, damaged) (13 and 14, damaged) (15 and 16, damaged) (17, damaged) (18, damaged) (19, damaged) (20, damaged) (21, damaged) (1, 2 and 3, damaged and abandoned) (4, damaged and abandoned) (5, damaged and abandoned)


Being abandoned does not prove it was originally operational, almost the opposite.

Anyway as I already said people are free to construct their own scenarios as they wish, I just wouldn't consider it realistic to have major Ukrainian tank and apc forces.

And my other point is that it's a tank game. Infantry shouldn't even be in the game. Although I understand it has to be, the focus of the game is on tanks.

Ukraine right now is a red green "buy everything" oob. The only oobs that exist in real life are red and green. Western forces vs eastern forces. These are Afghanistan, Kurds, Syria, all the obscure factions that have imported equipment. This is the only way things can work.

Not to be political but Ukraine isn't a real country. It was not included in the original country because it's just a pass through for other countries to dump equipment on. Having Ukraine as an OOB just ends up being a "buy everything" OOB, just like the Taliban or vietnam is a "buy everything" OOB, because of captured equipment. Wherever the war is happening becomes the "buy everything" OOB which is why I suggested, if you want Ukraine to mean anything, you stick to equipment it actually has.

And yes, the Bradley has seen limited use, according to your own sources most of them were abandoned.

There are two possible directions to go with the Ukraine OOB. Either limit it to equipment it has in large numbers or that it made itself (to my awareness it hasn't made any significant weapons), or just get rid of the Ukraine OOB and make it the "buy everything" OOB. The direction the game is heading now is to just make Ukraine the red-green "buy everything" flag because if a country has a major war and lots of equipment is captured AND you count every minor thing used 10 times as a unit, you just end up with everything.

[DRG]

The third option, which is the one we are going with, is it stays as is and we ignore your "suggestions"

You blew any credibility you had out the window with "it's a tank game. Infantry shouldn't even be in the game" even with your additional comment "Although I understand it has to be, the focus of the game is on tanks."

No, it's a "combined arms" game as we state right at the start of the game guide.........

WinSPMBT is a Post World War II combined arms tactical level wargame

[Mustang]

The third option, which is the one we are going with, is it stays as is and we ignore your "suggestions"

You blew any credibility you had out the window with "it's a tank game. Infantry shouldn't even be in the game" even with your additional comment "Although I understand it has to be, the focus of the game is on tanks."

No, it's a "combined arms" game as we state right at the start of the game guide.........

WinSPMBT is a Post World War II combined arms tactical level wargame


That is fine. I don't need to debate that.

The more fundamental issue is that Ukraine just becomes the red-green (yellow?) "Buy everything" country.

[DRG]

Yes, so what ?
Lots of nations have a mix of vehicle origins though right now Ukraine is the king of the hill for that but that's they way it worked out and we are not going to ignore it

[DRG]

New icons for next year :p


NOPE...... for one unless the turret detail is very simple and there is NO CAMO applied putting a cage on top just makes it look a mess generally


EDIT start
https://i.imgur.com/byBy8rN.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/sckGC8L.png

It does a fair representation of it but making it more realistic with the cage spacing just makes it look worse in the game once you put it into terrain

EDIT end

I'm surprised the Ukrainians are doing that as the Russians found out at the start it's not very effective

The last photo of the M109 it may offer some protection but it might be more useful for camouflage. The POINT of SP arty is 1/ the ability to follow mobile forces forward and 2/ to be able to shoot and scoot........ not a lot of scooting when you are locked in a cage but that one may be fully open at the front... hard to tell for sure

The Ukrainians have shown they can adapt and improvise

[Mustang]

Yes, so what ?
Lots of nations have a mix of vehicle origins though right now Ukraine is the king of the hill for that but that's they way it worked out and we are not going to ignore it

OK, but even then we might end up in a situation where Ukraine has literally no Bradley left.

Ukraine started with 100 Bradley's in March. It lost 50-60 in 6 months. At this rate it will have 0 Bradley's in February unless restocked.

Is there any accounting for a country that had equipment and then lost it? I haven't seen any legislation to replace the losses, they are getting a mix of other vehicles but they seem to be heading to 0 Bradley soon.

They are of course capturing abandoned Russian equipment which is the source of their growth.

[Mobhack]

You have your opinion and we have ours.

As mentioned earlier - if you really think you are the expert here, you can edit your own OOB with Mobhack for your own use. You can even post that in the Mods forum to see if anyone else agrees with you.

Meanwhile, we will stick to what is being reported via reliable sources. The UKR OOB may well change by next Spring, from further info supplied by these sources. Maybe those will match your opinions as expressed here, but most likely not.

[Mustang]

You have your opinion and we have ours.

As mentioned earlier - if you really think you are the expert here, you can edit your own OOB with Mobhack for your own use. You can even post that in the Mods forum to see if anyone else agrees with you.

Meanwhile, we will stick to what is being reported via reliable sources. The UKR OOB may well change by next Spring, from further info supplied by these sources. Maybe those will match your opinions as expressed here, but most likely not.

I'm fine with that. I'm just not surprised if Ukraine ends up losing equipment it now has zero of.

[MarkSheppard]

Being abandoned does not prove it was originally operational, almost the opposite.

52 M2A2 ODS Bradleys lost/damaged/abandoned is a lot more than a "handful" in contact. The original tranche of Bradleys which was announced in January 2023 was for 109 M2A2-ODS-SA and 4 Bradley-FIST variants.

I just wouldn't consider it realistic to have major Ukrainian tank and apc forces.

:confused: Very confused right now.

https://twitter.com/AlexRaptor94/status/1697727249921741202

that's a lot of Leopard 2's in AFU service.

Ukraine right now is a red green "buy everything" oob.

Of course they are. They're buying anything that can be reasonably delivered with full technical support packages.

Not to be political but Ukraine isn't a real country. It was not included in the original country because it's just a pass through for other countries to dump equipment on.

:confused:

1.) In 2005-2006 Ukraine had 3,784 MBTs, 3,043 AIFVs, 8,492 APCs, 1,143 Towed Guns, 1,298 SP Guns, and 200+ Mi-24 HINDs, along with 40 x Mi-6 HOOK and 300+ Mi-8 HIP transport helicopters, as well as 400~ mobile tactical SAM systems and 400+ combat aircraft of all types, plus 800+ strategic heavy SAM systems.

2.) In the original SP2 and SP3 days in the late 1990s; a good number of scenarios made involved Ukraine; as it was a potential fUSSR flashpoint.

Ergo, it made sense for Ukraine to be included in SP:MBT when it was being developed into WinSPMBT.

And yes, the Bradley has seen limited use, according to your own sources most of them were abandoned.

The US has officially pledged up to 186 M2 Bradleys; unofficially, now that the AFU has established units of the type as well as a spare parts line; they have an unlimited credit line on US Bradleys.

It makes no difference if AFU loses 50, 100 or all 186 M2s pledged, as the US will simply pull more M2s and refurbish them as needed to keep AFU "topped up". This isn't possible with the European NATO stockpiles; as due to the CFE treaty, everything in Europe over a certain limit had to be destroyed, so there's no huge stockpile of Leopard 1s or 2s left over from 1992 the way there is with US Abrams and Bradleys.

Only the US and Russia were able to "cheat" by moving their stockpiles out of the "European" zone.

[Mustang]

Being abandoned does not prove it was originally operational, almost the opposite.

52 M2A2 ODS Bradleys lost/damaged/abandoned is a lot more than a "handful" in contact. The original tranche of Bradleys which was announced in January 2023 was for 109 M2A2-ODS-SA and 4 Bradley-FIST variants.


Your source does not say they were damaged in combat. Many, maybe 90% of vehicles historically are lost in accidents or other problems outside of combat.

I just wouldn't consider it realistic to have major Ukrainian tank and apc forces.

:confused: Very confused right now.

https://twitter.com/AlexRaptor94/status/1697727249921741202

that's a lot of Leopard 2's in AFU service.



I am fine with including the leopard 2a4 because Ukraine has no other tanks. It's soviet tanks are mostly obsolete. The 2a4 is the only tank it really has.

The 2a6 and other tanks are not available in number.


Of course they are. They're buying anything that can be reasonably delivered with full technical support packages.

It undermines the concept of what an OOB is, you might as well include everything because Ukraine can refurbish a IS2 and call it operational.

Not to be political but Ukraine isn't a real country. It was not included in the original country because it's just a pass through for other countries to dump equipment on.
:confused:

1.) In 2005-2006 Ukraine had 3,784 MBTs, 3,043 AIFVs, 8,492 APCs, 1,143 Towed Guns, 1,298 SP Guns, and 200+ Mi-24 HINDs, along with 40 x Mi-6 HOOK and 300+ Mi-8 HIP transport helicopters, as well as 400~ mobile tactical SAM systems and 400+ combat aircraft of all types, plus 800+ strategic heavy SAM systems.

2.) In the original SP2 and SP3 days in the late 1990s; a good number of scenarios made involved Ukraine; as it was a potential fUSSR flashpoint.

Ergo, it made sense for Ukraine to be included in SP:MBT when it was being developed into WinSPMBT.


That is fine if you include the huge t55 and bmp 1 fleet of obsolete vehicles but I am just talking about their modern equipment.

And yes, the Bradley has seen limited use, according to your own sources most of them were abandoned.

The US has officially pledged up to 186 M2 Bradleys; unofficially, now that the AFU has established units of the type as well as a spare parts line; they have an unlimited credit line on US Bradleys.

It makes no difference if AFU loses 50, 100 or all 186 M2s pledged, as the US will simply pull more M2s and refurbish them as needed to keep AFU "topped up". This isn't possible with the European NATO stockpiles; as due to the CFE treaty, everything in Europe over a certain limit had to be destroyed, so there's no huge stockpile of Leopard 1s or 2s left over from 1992 the way there is with US Abrams and Bradleys.

Only the US and Russia were able to "cheat" by moving their stockpiles out of the "European" zone.

I do not think Ukraine has anywhere near an unlimited credit line, and that is the real issue here. If 2024 comes around and they aren't receiving more equipment then the underwhelming US support for Ukraine will be more obvious. We will wait and see.

[Mustang]

https://exxpress.at/media/2023/04/bildschirmfoto-2023-04-19-um-073345.png

[Aeraaa]

Isn't this image from around April/May?

[DRG]

Isn't this image from around April/May?


April in a training accident and it's old news now

[Mustang]

Isn't this image from around April/May?


April in a training accident and it's old news now

Arguably a lot of the losses in Ukraine are training mistakes.

https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/06/12/BradsWarriorDV1.jpg?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1440

[Mustang]

An example of equipment Ukraine had in the past and now lost.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.businessinsider.com/turkeys-bayraktar-tb2-drones-ineffective-ukraine-war-2023-5%3Famp&ved=2ahUKEwiSt7TV4JGBAxVUCjQIHRu7AtcQFnoECBsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1bpRFegrlI_KklfZe08Db6

The article implies Ukraine has no real TB2 force anymore. Therefore, if we had them in the game, we would adjust the OOB accordingly.

Countries can have weapons in the past and lose them, and if we get a similar report for other equipment we can consider it.

[DRG]

We do........

[Mustang]

We do........

I know that you remove equipment when it's not available. I was just confirming the level of evidence.

So far although we don't have the same confirmation for marders. If we get a statement resembling them all being lost or unavailable in the winter counteroffensive then that would be good evidence.

For bradleys they already aren't in the OOB and that can remain until we get some kind of evidence they are used after the aforementioned instance.

For the 2A4 Ukraine can keep them, although right now they are being upgraded with Kontakt ERA so they aren't necessarily operational at the moment.

[DRG]

We do........


For bradleys they already aren't in the OOB and that can remain until we get some kind of evidence they are used after the aforementioned instance.




The Bradleys aren't in the OOB? Are you blind?
Unit 721.
Formations 292 and 293.

Thanks for the "advice" but we'll continue on as we always have without it

Any adjustments to start date will be made before the next release. What's in there now was based on the best info we had at the start of the year.

Don't like it ? I don't care. That's what MoBHacks for

[Mustang]

We do........


For bradleys they already aren't in the OOB and that can remain until we get some kind of evidence they are used after the aforementioned instance.




The Bradleys aren't in the OOB? Are you blind?
Unit 721.
Formations 292 and 293.

Thanks for the "advice" but we'll continue on as we always have without it

Any adjustments to start date will be made before the next release. What's in there now was based on the best info we had at the start of the year.

Don't like it ? I don't care.

I didn't mean to be hostile.

[MarkSheppard]

Challenger II is now in combat.

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1698874142957752322

[MarkSheppard]

An example of equipment Ukraine had in the past and now lost.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.businessinsider.com/turkeys-bayraktar-tb2-drones-ineffective-ukraine-war-2023-5%3Famp&ved=2ahUKEwiSt7TV4JGBAxVUCjQIHRu7AtcQFnoECBsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1bpRFegrlI_KklfZe08Db6

The article implies Ukraine has no real TB2 force anymore. Therefore, if we had them in the game, we would adjust the OOB accordingly.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

LMAO.

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1698483877562499214

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1698366467379437763

Bayraktars are back blowing stuff up.

Seems like the AFU just pulled them back for a while from the frontlines to let Russian ADA degrade enough to make it worthwhile to use again.

[MarkSheppard]

Also first Bradley FIST video -- they got something like 7 or so BFISTs out of 125 Bradleys

https://twitter.com/Archer83Able/status/1698655065177788680

[Mustang]

An example of equipment Ukraine had in the past and now lost.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.businessinsider.com/turkeys-bayraktar-tb2-drones-ineffective-ukraine-war-2023-5%3Famp&ved=2ahUKEwiSt7TV4JGBAxVUCjQIHRu7AtcQFnoECBsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1bpRFegrlI_KklfZe08Db6

The article implies Ukraine has no real TB2 force anymore. Therefore, if we had them in the game, we would adjust the OOB accordingly.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

LMAO.

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1698483877562499214

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1698366467379437763

Bayraktars are back blowing stuff up.

Seems like the AFU just pulled them back for a while from the frontlines to let Russian ADA degrade enough to make it worthwhile to use again.

Kherson is considered non combat. Also, there are no missiles fired which is strange.

Also first Bradley FIST video -- they got something like 7 or so BFISTs out of 125 Bradleys

As it happens there's only one video of a bradley firing its weapons, I'm not sure if the FISTV are fully armed either.

[DRG]

Kherson is considered non combat. Also, there are no missiles fired which is strange.

Really ? The boat exploding wasn't enough for you ?

]Also first Bradley FIST video -- they got something like 7 or so BFISTs out of 125 Bradleys

As it happens there's only one video of a bradley firing its weapons, I'm not sure if the FISTV are fully armed either.


So because only one video shows a bradley firing its weapons you are not sure if the FISTV are fully armed ?

You have no evidence they are not but you are doing a fine job of making the prophecy you made at the start of your latest posting cycle become a reality,,,,,,,


https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=53019



"Long time, but I'll be banned fast."

Nothing says TROLL like a comment like that

Take the hint.

[DRG]

Also first Bradley FIST video -- they got something like 7 or so BFISTs out of 125 Bradleys

https://twitter.com/Archer83Able/status/1698655065177788680


Something else to add to the OOB......


https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukraine-to-get-bradley-m7-vehicles-to-act-as-artillery-quarterbacks

[Mustang]

Kherson is considered non combat. Also, there are no missiles fired which is strange.

Really ? The boat exploding wasn't enough for you ?

]Also first Bradley FIST video -- they got something like 7 or so BFISTs out of 125 Bradleys

As it happens there's only one video of a bradley firing its weapons, I'm not sure if the FISTV are fully armed either.


So because only one video shows a bradley firing its weapons you are not sure if the FISTV are fully armed ?

You have no evidence they are not but you are doing a fine job of making the prophecy you made at the start of your latest posting cycle become a reality,,,,,,,


https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=53019



"Long time, but I'll be banned fast."

Nothing says TROLL like a comment like that

Take the hint.

Call me a troll if you want but I will still reply to your specific requests.

The TOW on the FIST is removed. I believe that's already in the game.

There is apparently a stabilizer issue with the older FIST, I don't think this in the game, correct me if I'm wrong.

https://i.ibb.co/hsz5YTh/Screenshot-20230905-084633-Chrome.jpg (https://ibb.co/0qbNsz8)

All ukranian bradleys are m2 and thus a less upgraded model. The m3 and m7 have a stabilizer. It is implied the older bradleys cannot move and target, specifically the FIST.

This might be a general problem with all M2 or just the FIST due to the different electrical work.

[Mustang]

I cannot find a source that the ODS bradley has a stabilizer. There is another model, ODS SA, which does. Ukraine did not get these.

https://i.ibb.co/vXWfp4W/Screenshot-20230905-090432-Chrome.jpg (https://ibb.co/5K3Cmh3)

The SA is fully modernized and has a stabilizer. This is hard to represent in game as the game assumes stabilizers are harder than thermal sights, based on ww2. A higher fire control value means you have a stabilizer and then a thermal sight.

The bradley progression is the opposite as the cost of electronics has gone down and mechanical parts are in shortage. The result is the ODS bradley apparently has a thermal sight with no stabilizer while the SA has everything.

I don't know how you represent this in the game but it is a major loss of capability.

[Mustang]

Some visual evidence.

https://i.ibb.co/f8rPfDH/070314-A-YG824-002.jpg (https://ibb.co/k3qWjmX)

ODS SA. Note the CITV.

https://i.ibb.co/S5TMnX2/Bradley-M2-A2-AIFV-tracked-Armored-Infantry-Fighting-Vehicle-United-States-925-001.jpg (https://ibb.co/mbs2qCm)

ODS model. Note the hood over CITV.

https://i.ibb.co/YQdVJSk/JMJTFRFEQ5-I27-O6-SQL6-DAPVUSI.jpg (https://ibb.co/sR1Xc4w)

Majority of bradleys here resemble ODS, you might be able to find some SA but it's clear not all are SA.

[DRG]

Also first Bradley FIST video -- they got something like 7 or so BFISTs out of 125 Bradleys

https://twitter.com/Archer83Able/status/1698655065177788680


Note the text "Both vehicles are equipped with Bradley Reactive Armour Tiles"

Will adjust...

[Mustang]

I don't think any IFV has ever used reactive armor in combat, given the reactive armor would penetrate their own thin armor.

[DRG]

Well that's why we are not paying any attention to what "you think"

https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/ukrainian_bradley_m2a2_upgraded_with_brat_reactive _armor_kit.html

https://www.rafael-usa.com/programs/armor/

RAFAEL provides advanced Reactive Armor Tiles for armored combat vehicles that defeat a broad range of threats including kinetic energy projectiles, anti-tank shaped charges, high-speed fragments, IEDs, RPGs, and EFPs. RAFAEL is the design authority for the Bradley AFV Reactive Armor Tiles, which have been supplied to the U.S. Army for the Bradley as well as for the Stryker IFV. The system saved U.S. soldiers’ lives during the Enduring Freedom (Afghanistan) and Iraqi Freedom operations. Platforms hit simultaneously by RPGs during ambushes survived the attacks.

[Mustang]

Well that's why we are not paying any attention to what "you think"

https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/ukrainian_bradley_m2a2_upgraded_with_brat_reactive _armor_kit.html

https://www.rafael-usa.com/programs/armor/

RAFAEL provides advanced Reactive Armor Tiles for armored combat vehicles that defeat a broad range of threats including kinetic energy projectiles, anti-tank shaped charges, high-speed fragments, IEDs, RPGs, and EFPs. RAFAEL is the design authority for the Bradley AFV Reactive Armor Tiles, which have been supplied to the U.S. Army for the Bradley as well as for the Stryker IFV. The system saved U.S. soldiers’ lives during the Enduring Freedom (Afghanistan) and Iraqi Freedom operations. Platforms hit simultaneously by RPGs during ambushes survived the attacks.

The upgrade was in 2009 so the oif part is impossible. For Afghanistan I can't find anything.

[Mobhack]

Mustang - what part of Don's "that's why we are not paying any attention to what "you think"" don't you get?

We don't care what you post. We have told you so. But you just don't seem to get the hint and blithely reply with yet another "you think". Or several!.

Your screeds of obsessive "you thinks" on these forums simply aren't worth the electrons expended since their value to us has been proven to be the square root of diddly-squat.

Now, please hop it before you get yourself banned, eh?

[Mustang]

Mustang - what part of Don's "that's why we are not paying any attention to what "you think"" don't you get?

We don't care what you post. We have told you so. But you just don't seem to get the hint and blithely reply with yet another "you think". Or several!.

Your screeds of obsessive "you thinks" on these forums simply aren't worth the electrons expended since their value to us has been proven to be the square root of diddly-squat.

Now, please hop it before you get yourself banned, eh?


I'm fine with being banned. It's not my opinion. There's multiple factual errors here. Era was never used in Iraq. The bradleys in Ukraine have no stabilizer. And so on. Ban me.

[MarkSheppard]

There's multiple factual errors here. Era was never used in Iraq. The bradleys in Ukraine have no stabilizer. And so on. Ban me.

https://www.militarytoday.com/apc/m2_bradley.htm

At the time of its introduction the Bradley was the first IFV with a fully-stabilized main gun.

Please note that this is the initial M2A0 Bradley from 1981 -- at the time all this was very $$$$$ -- the UK Warrior IFV doesn't have stabilization even today.

[MarkSheppard]

BTW, copy pasta from /k/:

Current Attrition rates of Western military equipment in Ukraine

(According to Oryx, all visually confirmed -- LOST includes damaged and destroyed)

Tanks
Leopard 2A6 (21) - Lost (9) - (43%)
Leopard 2A4 (54) - Lost (7) - (13%)
M-55s - (28) - Lost (2) - (7%)
Challenger 2 (14) - Lost (1) - (7%)
PT-91 Twardy (60) - Lost (2) - (3%)
Leopard 1A5 (165) - Lost (0) - (0%)
Strv 122s (10) - Lost (0) - (0%)

AFVs
AMX-10 RC (40) - Lost (4) - (10%)

IFVs
Bradley M2A2 (182) - Lost (53) - (29%)
YPR-765 (196) - Lost (48) - (24%)
CV90 (50) - Lost (3) - (6%)
KTO Rosomak (200) - Lost (1) - (0.5%)
Marder (40) - Lost (0) - (0%)

APC
M113 (778) - Lost (66) - (8%)
FV103 Spartan (114) - Lost (3) - (3%)
VAB (60) Delivered - Lost (12) - (20%)
Patria Pasi (20) - Lost (7) - (35%)
Bushmaster (90) - Lost (8) - (9%)
Stryker - (157) - Lost (3) - (2%)

[MarkSheppard]

For all his whining, Mustang has a point...at what point do we consider a type extinct in service?

Russian Ground Forces had (on paper) 557 T-80 variants pre-war. Of this, 396 have been lost (71%) since the war started.

Elsewhere, SIPRI said Russia had about 112~ Ka-52 Alligators in 2019. Oryx has visual evidence of 43 Ka-52 losses. (38.3%) One actually just crashed on a training flight earlier this month and one was just shot down outside of Robotyne:

https://twitter.com/osinttechnical/status/1699035784827826365
https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1692422168301236226

[Mustang]

There's multiple factual errors here. Era was never used in Iraq. The bradleys in Ukraine have no stabilizer. And so on. Ban me.

https://www.militarytoday.com/apc/m2_bradley.htm

At the time of its introduction the Bradley was the first IFV with a fully-stabilized main gun.

Please note that this is the initial M2A0 Bradley from 1981 -- at the time all this was very $$$$$ -- the UK Warrior IFV doesn't have stabilization even today.

The other article I cited said stabilizers were a new feature in 2006. It's illogical that the main gun would be stabilized but not a missile launch.

In any case full stabilization is a SA feature and Ukraine doesn't have it, hence the game is incorrect.


BTW, copy pasta from /k/:

How do you not recognize Mustang, jidf?

Alligators in 2019. Oryx has visual evidence of 43 Ka-52 losses. (38.3%) One actually just crashed on a training flight earlier this month and one was just shot down outside of Robotyne

The difference is Russia is continually building new equipment whereas although America is also building equipment, there is no consistent plan to send them to Ukraine. But I'm fine with removing any Russian equipment you believe is gone.

[MarkSheppard]

As it happens there's only one video of a bradley firing its weapons, I'm not sure if the FISTV are fully armed either.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/05/europe/ukraine-zaporizhzhia-robotyne-bradley-intl-cmd/index.html

Yet southward progress is precisely what the Ukrainian soldiers with the call signs Karatsupa, Pan and Taba seek, driving their American-made Bradley Fighting Vehicles down a road that is also, they believe, the road to Ukrainian victory.

Every day, under relentless fire, they drive fresh troops in and spent ones out, with just 30 seconds to make the swap on the battlefield.

“I’ve been serving since 2014 and I’ve never encountered such minefields anywhere. Just hectares of them, to the left and to the right,” said Karatsupa. “A lot of trenches, dugouts. And all this for dozens of kilometers. They even throw mines at the territory we are taking. Without the mines, we would already be in Tokmak.”

....

But without the Bradleys, say the men, no one would have survived. They proudly showed CNN some of the direct artillery hits the US-made armored vehicles had taken, singing their praises repeatedly

[Mustang]

As it happens there's only one video of a bradley firing its weapons, I'm not sure if the FISTV are fully armed either.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/05/europe/ukraine-zaporizhzhia-robotyne-bradley-intl-cmd/index.html

Yet southward progress is precisely what the Ukrainian soldiers with the call signs Karatsupa, Pan and Taba seek, driving their American-made Bradley Fighting Vehicles down a road that is also, they believe, the road to Ukrainian victory.

Every day, under relentless fire, they drive fresh troops in and spent ones out, with just 30 seconds to make the swap on the battlefield.

“I’ve been serving since 2014 and I’ve never encountered such minefields anywhere. Just hectares of them, to the left and to the right,” said Karatsupa. “A lot of trenches, dugouts. And all this for dozens of kilometers. They even throw mines at the territory we are taking. Without the mines, we would already be in Tokmak.”

....

But without the Bradleys, say the men, no one would have survived. They proudly showed CNN some of the direct artillery hits the US-made armored vehicles had taken, singing their praises repeatedly

You are proving my point, my point is they are using them as transports and not weapons.

[MarkSheppard]

It's illogical that the main gun would be stabilized but not a missile launch.

TOW has always been "Stop to raise launcher, fire and guide missiles until impact" since 1981. I know they've talked about wireless TOW as an enhancement; but the big bugaboo has been retaining compatibility with existing BFV launchers and FCS.

In any case full stabilization is a SA feature and Ukraine doesn't have it, hence the game is incorrect.

:rolleyes:

Bradley has always had stabilization for the chaingun since 1981

[MarkSheppard]

You are proving my point, my point is they are using them as transports and not weapons.

https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1692994618533527730

https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1692894004193448307

https://twitter.com/GloOouD/status/1670766461248307202

:rolleyes:

[Mustang]

You are proving my point, my point is they are using them as transports and not weapons.

https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1692994618533527730

https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1692894004193448307

https://twitter.com/GloOouD/status/1670766461248307202

:rolleyes:


In the videos you posted it is evident the gun is not stabilized. But anyway, you did find it was able to fire weapons, but you also proved the sight is not stabilized.

In the third video there is no Oryx loss traceable to the incident so they are firing at nothing.

[MarkSheppard]

In the videos you posted it is evident the gun is not stabilized.

:rolleyes:

https://i.imgur.com/QfbQu2y.jpg

From TM 9-2350-252-10-2 for the Bradley.

[MarkSheppard]

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA147208.pdf

BRADLEY INFANTRY FIGHTING VEHICLE PROCEDURES GUIDE: COMMANDER AND GUNNER (FEBRUARY 1984)

PDF Page 19, says that step #7 in shutting down the turret to exit the vehicle is to MOVE TO OFF...the STAB SWITCH.

This is a manual from 1984, for the M2A0 -- we know this because the M2A1 was not introduced until 1986.

[DRG]

For all his whining, Mustang has a point...at what point do we consider a type extinct in service?

Russian Ground Forces had (on paper) 557 T-80 variants pre-war. Of this, 396 have been lost (71%) since the war started.

Elsewhere, SIPRI said Russia had about 112~ Ka-52 Alligators in 2019. Oryx has visual evidence of 43 Ka-52 losses. (38.3%) One actually just crashed on a training flight earlier this month and one was just shot down outside of Robotyne:

https://twitter.com/osinttechnical/status/1699035784827826365
https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1692422168301236226


When we can verify that there are none left with more than just hearsay evidence. The Russians never really retire anything even though we had some pulled from reserve units until the info surfaced that some were being re-fitted. Even if there are a handful still running unless they are only in a museum it would be worth keeping in an OOB but maybe put the radio code to 3 to keep the AI from buying them and PERHAPS add a note to the unit that purchasing should be keeping to only a few vehicles due to their rarity but then new info may surface making that wrong.



It's a judgment call that WE ( Andy and I ) make. NOBODY else

[DRG]

I'm fine with being banned. It's not my opinion. There's multiple factual errors here. Era was never used in Iraq. The bradleys in Ukraine have no stabilizer. And so on. Ban me.


Request granted

[DRG]

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA147208.pdf

BRADLEY INFANTRY FIGHTING VEHICLE PROCEDURES GUIDE: COMMANDER AND GUNNER (FEBRUARY 1984)

PDF Page 19, says that step #7 in shutting down the turret to exit the vehicle is to MOVE TO OFF...the STAB SWITCH.

This is a manual from 1984, for the M2A0 -- we know this because the M2A1 was not introduced until 1986.


The entire "conversation" was getting ridiculous. We've been doing this too long to not know when someone's talking out of their arse and neither of us has any patience for it. The insistence that the Bradley gun was not stabilized was not quite the final straw... more like the bale that broke the camel's back

There are ample sources that support that it is.

This in regards to ERA
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukrainian-bradleys-seen-equipped-with-explosive-reactive-armor

More than a month into the long-awaited Ukrainian counteroffensive, U.S.-supplied M2A2 Bradley ODS infantry fighting vehicles have taken some punishment from Russian forces. Videos early in the counteroffensive showed Bradleys taking hits and being abandoned as Ukrainians advanced on Russian lines. Now Ukraine appears to have upgraded some of its Bradleys with at least parts of the Bradley Urban Survival Kit (BUSK), offering improved protection.

The boxy explosive reactive armor (ERA) bricks around the sides of the hull, known as Bradley Reactive Armor Tiles (BRAT), are but one component of a fully equipped BUSK M2.

[MarkSheppard]

regarding challenger II loss

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/05/british-challenger-2-tank-destroyed-in-combat-for-first-time-ukraine-footage-shows

Western sources indicated on Tuesday night that the tank first struck a Russian mine on Monday, which blew a rear fuel compartment, causing it to be immobilised. The crew then evacuated safely, but as it lay dormant it was then hit by a Lancet drone.

This is something that's going to have to be SOP for future militaries -- either recover tanks ASAP or have SHORAD units covering the battlefield to prevent recoverable vehicles from being converted into losses by enemy UAVs.

[DRG]

regarding challenger II loss

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/05/british-challenger-2-tank-destroyed-in-combat-for-first-time-ukraine-footage-shows

Western sources indicated on Tuesday night that the tank first struck a Russian mine on Monday, which blew a rear fuel compartment, causing it to be immobilised. The crew then evacuated safely, but as it lay dormant it was then hit by a Lancet drone.

This is something that's going to have to be SOP for future militaries -- either recover tanks ASAP or have SHORAD units covering the battlefield to prevent recoverable vehicles from being converted into losses by enemy UAVs.


Certainly a more viable tactic now that it takes a LONG time to get a replacement for it.......IF you get another one at all.
Something that can be repaired is worth making the extra effort to recover it ASAP

[Karagin]

So the supply train issue comes back to haunt future fighting...who would have thought that...oh wait, everyone who is in combat support who point it out in every AAR and get ignored.

[MarkSheppard]

So the supply train issue comes back to haunt future fighting...who would have thought that...oh wait, everyone who is in combat support who point it out in every AAR and get ignored.

They do have CSS - here have two M88s towing a Leopard 2 out of the battlefield.

https://twitter.com/CasualArtyFan/status/1699005178421092448

It's just...more tanks and other AFV than CSS to recover them. The usual. :rolleyes:

[Karagin]

So the supply train issue comes back to haunt future fighting...who would have thought that...oh wait, everyone who is in combat support who point it out in every AAR and get ignored.

They do have CSS - here have two M88s towing a Leopard 2 out of the battlefield.

https://twitter.com/CasualArtyFan/status/1699005178421092448

It's just...more tanks and other AFV than CSS to recover them. The usual. :rolleyes:

You missed the point, but cool video.

[MarkSheppard]

So...the Russians recently restarted tank gas turbine engine production after...30 years.

That's a big deal, because they don't have a lot of machine tools and they already have the V92 Diesel (T-90) and the weird Diesel for the T-14 in production.

So why restart tank GTEs after 30 years?

Because the T-80 fleet has been mostly extinguished in this war, it can't be about maintaining the T-80 fleet.

I think it's because the weight of all the addons on the T-90 (massive ERA addons, the cope cage anti drone stuff) over the decades, and the need for mobility and reliable cold weather start/performance has forced this upon the Russian Armed Forces.

They need 1500 HP to maintain a mobility advantage over the AFU's increasingly more mobile western tanks; and the V92 Diesel taps out at around 1150 HP; and the T-14 Opposed Piston Diesel simply doesn't work.

Soo....gas turbines by default win.

[MarkSheppard]

Abrams is "now in Ukraine" per Zelenskyy, and the US is now talking about an additional 30 to be delivered on top of the initial increment of 30...

[MarkSheppard]

AFU recovery working well

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1706702046953418755

(M2A2 Brad being towed by M88 wrecker)

[DRG]

Abrams is "now in Ukraine" per Zelenskyy, and the US is now talking about an additional 30 to be delivered on top of the initial increment of 30...


Which means the 10/23 OOB date was a "good guess"........

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I would rather think it was an "educated" guess at the time. All the signs pointed to it and maybe we've just been doing it for so long as well.

However, there was a delay which will probably push it back to JAN 2024 before they get all 31 tanks to form the Battalion that will operate them.

So far none of the Western tanks or other tanks (M-55S.) have been fielded before their Battalions have received them.

They will receive 6-8 in the initial shipment. All are Ex-Marine tanks.

I feel the 80 some FEP tanks the CORPS had, have by this time finished their conversion to the M1A1C.

The FEP tanks were modernized enough to minimize the time to convert them to the M1A2C standard. I'm guessing saving three to four months less on the production line then the current 18 to 24 months for the rest as has been already posted.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_september_2023_global_security_army_i ndustry/us_secretary_of_defense_announces_m1a1_abrams_tank s_will_enter_ukraine_soon.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_september_2023_global_security_army_i ndustry/abrams_m1a1_main_battle_tanks_soon_in_ukraine_acco rding_to_pentagon.html

Also, I didn't intend at the time to mean nothing more than we wouldn't see the M1A2D (SEP 4) before the game ended. Well thins have taken a dramatic turn NO ONE will see the M1A2D (SEP 4) .

"On September 6, 2023, the U.S. Army announced its decision to halt the ongoing upgrades of the M1A2 Abrams Main Battle Tank. Instead, the Army has initiated the development of a new armored platform, referred to as the M1E3 Abrams, with the objective of addressing the evolving requirements of future battlefields, particularly those expected to emerge beyond the year 2040."

"The Army's official statement indicates that the M1E3 Abrams is anticipated to achieve its initial operational capability in the early 2030s. This timeframe coincides with growing concerns surrounding evolving warfare scenarios, as exemplified by recent events such as the conflict in Ukraine."

"This modernization initiative is expected to bolster the effectiveness and maneuverability of armored brigade combat teams on a global scale, achieved by reducing sustainment demands and improving operational and tactical mobility. As part of the transition process, the Army will continue limited production of the M1A2 SEP v.3 until production fully shifts to the M1E3 Abrams. Additionally, critical technologies will be carried forward into the SEPv4 Abrams modernization program." (In other words; the current SEP 4 technologies will serve as the baseline technologies for the M1E3 ABRAMS.)
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_september_2023_global_security_army_i ndustry/us_army_announces_development_of_m1e3_abrams_main_ battle_tank.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[MarkSheppard]

Poor don and andy...:hurt:

Looks like the Russians pulled some BTR-90 pre-production prototypes and used them up in Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/praisethesteph/status/1712874425119367238

A very rare 🇷🇺#Russian BTR-90 wheeled IFV first spotted on the battlefield, allegedly near #Avdiivka, #Donetsk oblast.

The BTR-90 is a wheeled IFV designed in 1993, armed with a 30mm 2A42 autocannon, a 7.62mm PKT machine gun, a 9M113 Konkurs ATGM and a 30mm AGS-17 automatic grenade launcher. It never made it into the Russian Army's armament.

https://twitter.com/AndreiBtvt/status/1712867191849107695

First ever BTR-90 in action. Less than a dozen made and stored in Russia #38 research institute

...

The BTR-90 was adopted by the Russian Armed Forces by Order of the Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation No. 324 of June 9, 2008.
Defense Minister of the Russian Federation No. 324 of June 9, 2008, but it was not mass-produced

[DRG]

My head hurts........

FORTUNATLY they still exist in old OOB's I had saved :D

BUT

That was not a 30mm gun firing in the second X post

and that link to what it claimed was a BTR https://t.me/btvt2019/6252

This is the translation


Also, several 2S31 “Vena” were at the Kubinka training ground. It is precisely possible that it was his “exhibits” that began to be sent to the troops. There they glowed right next to the Shkvals. I wouldn’t be surprised if time soon comes to even rarer machines, if they can be put into operation.




Does not show the same forward hull in the video as that link they are totally different

This is a BTR-90 There is in an old OOB a BTR-90M-FSV that has a 30mm gun AND a 100mm gun but that was not what was shown firing in that link

https://www.militarytoday.com/apc/btr_90.htm

The few made could certainly have been sent.

[Suhiir]

They will receive 6-8 in the initial shipment. All are Ex-Marine tanks.

I feel the 80 some FEP tanks the CORPS had, have by this time finished their conversion to the M1A1C.

The FEP tanks were modernized enough to minimize the time to convert them to the M1A2C standard. I'm guessing saving three to four months less on the production line then the current 18 to 24 months for the rest as has been already posted.

Regards,
Pat

Seeing this and thinking it over I doubt the US Army would loan the USMC their very best tanks (what M1A2C's they have will undoubtedly be in or earmarked for Germany.
So for next years patch the US Army loans to the USMC are downgraded to the M1A2v2 SEP.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Just got back very late Sat. night after 4 days out West to see U2 in concert at the Sphere. Yesterday was a recovery day after the both of us walked just over 25-26 miles in those four days in sandals. Don't mess with CINCLANTHOME she can hold her "own powder" quite well. :p

So, I figured, I'd look in and saw my Marine Buddy is on top of her game with the above post. Now about the APS issue with FEP, WELL THAT CAN WAIT UNTIL ANOTHER DAY.

It appears the USA is certainly taking the same road to FOC with the M1A2C as they did with the M1A2 SEP 2, where the "magic number" was at least 8 fully equipped and trained Battalions as my memory serves from my submission a few years back (In FB Patch Tread.).

As a reminder, the M1A2D as posted is DOA.

I know we go back and forth much like Don and I do as well. At the end of the day, I know no matter the outcome, it's all "water under the bridge" and we move on.

You have my utmost respect and I've never forgotten that you and IMP (John) were there when I first posted out here and guided me through those initial (And at times current ones as well.) rough patches.

I've made a point to NEVER forget those that have been there in my life no matter the circumstances. And I've personally thanked every one of them. In that regard, my conscious is clear before the "big move" occurs.

Though I'm quite content to stay where I am for a little while longer if that's OK with the "Big Boss" :angel

If anyone thinks you made it on your own, then now would be a good time to wake up and get yourself a STRONG cup of coffee/tea (Or whatever. I like an Ovaltine with a couple of shots of St. Bernards from Londonderry/Derry (N) IE about 5 times a year. ) or "smell the roses".

Now that I've digressed, I'll just say good night and have a good morning!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Suhiir]

Now about the APS issue with FEP, WELL THAT CAN WAIT UNTIL ANOTHER DAY.

Regards,
Pat

Ignoring the APS - FEP issue.

I have to wonder about the armor package the USMC Abrams had. It was (according to what I could find) the "Heavy Common" package. Did the US Army M1A2 of various iterations use this same armor package or an upgraded one? If the same then yes upgrading M1A1 FEPs to M1A2C shouldn't be too time intensive. BUT ... if the M1A2C uses better armor then ... takes time to manufacture and replace armor ... lots of it.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

That is why my thought was the time saved in the conversion process might only be about 3-4 months not so much because of the armor as much as the electronics was much more advanced on the M1A1 FEP as compared to the rest of the USMC tank fleet at the time.

That leaves a conversation time of 18 to 20 months to complete the process.

FEP was more than the FCS and associated systems. For an upgrade such as FEP you're talking about installing more digital subsystems, rewiring, upgrading the powerplant to provide the extra power required to operate the systems and mechanically modifying the cooling systems to protect the circuits and equipment from overheating.

It's not much of a leap to think about a Submarine and Tank to be related when it comes to electronics onboard, they both need the same systems to maintain a healthy onboard electronic environment.

As I've pointed out in the past, that's why onboard a Submarine we try to maintain an ambient temp. ~70 -72 degrees and cooling systems (Thing a High-End gaming computer using a chill water system.).

I used to get some crap out here when I brought that up about tanks many years ago, IT NEVER WAS ABOUT THE CREW; IT WAS ONLY ABOUT THE ELECTRONICS.

Thailand when they got their OPLOT-T tanks were ordered with AC units due to the operating environment. While the Ukraine was in Thailand providing tech support for about 2 years guess what they discovered? Besides the fact as on a Submarine the crews worked more efficiently (A side benefit.) which by extension meant so did all the onboard electrical and electronic systems.

So, what do you think happened with the OPLOT/OPLOT-M? They also got A/C (I mean this as a general term.) and Chill water systems to support all the above including laser systems as well.

Armor advances always DU ARMOR is sandwiched normally between applique armor materials along with ceramic coatings and tiles or both.

The primary advances are in applique and ceramic armors. We along with other countries that use DU will use a combination of the above or all together such as us and Israel (As has been rumored).

That is why I submitted those foreign sales tanks the way I did. And I feel they are still pretty robust again because we are always advancing the science of armor.

I need to hit the rack. my vacation will be over at 1445 later today.

Have a good something wherever you are.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[MarkSheppard]

Ran across something relatively new and recent for the Russian OBAT. :cold::shock:

https://twitter.com/AndreiBtvt/status/1714213509385392522

TOS-2 Tosochka in action in Ukraine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOS-2
https://tank-afv.com/coldwar/ussr/TOS-1-Buratino.php

For the TOS-2 Tosochka, they put a new rocket launcher (with it's own on board crane) onto a 6x6 Ural-63706-0120 chassis; combined with a newer longer range rocket.

Apparently the TOS-1A can fire three types of 220mm rockets:

The original TOS-1A had only a 2700m range with the MO.1.01.04 rocket.

This was later extended to 6000m range with the MO.1.01.04M rocket at an unspecified date.

In 2020, along with the TOS-2, they introduced a new rocket type - M0.1.01.04M2 (sometimes called TBS-M3?) which has a slightly heavier warhead and 10 km range to counter the longer ranges of modern ATGMs. However, minimum range rose from 400m to 1600m, so the shorter ranged MO.1.01.04M will continue in service for "short range" targets as necessary alongside the longer ranged rocket.

[MarkSheppard]

So, what do you think happened with the OPLOT/OPLOT-M? They also got A/C (I mean this as a general term.) and Chill water systems to support all the above including laser systems as well.


The "original" T-90Ms pre-war had A/C installed. The latest "war mobilization" don't. You can see this in interior views of the latest T-90M 2023 models where the A/C control panel has been removed and replaced with a conventional (famous) russian floppy plastic fan for ventilation.

[MarkSheppard]

https://twitter.com/AndreiBtvt/status/1714784359725822409

Ukrainian Ministry of Defense has officially adopted three modifications of Leopard tanks for the AFU - Leopard 2A6, Leopard 2A5 and Leopard 1A5 tanks. The corresponding orders were signed by the Minister of Defense of Ukraine Rustem Umerov.

[MarkSheppard]

https://twitter.com/AndreiBtvt/status/1714957182767169669

An interview in which a soldier claims the new missiles for TOS-2 have a maximum range of 20 km (?) and at 0:14, a nice top shot for icons:

https://i.imgur.com/byjbL2O.jpg

[DRG]

It'll be a few months before the next OOB update which will give more time for research but

https://www.deagel.com/Weapons/M0.1.01.04M/a003355

Shows max range 10km for the M0.1.01.04M2

https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/analysis_discover_combat_capabilities_of_russian_t os-2_thermobaric_rocket_launcher_used_in_ukraine.html

shows
The TOS-2 is able to fire fuel-air explosive rockets also called thermobaric ammunition and can also fire a full range of 220mm unguided rockets. Using thermobaric rockets, the TOS-2 has a firing range from 3.5 to 10 km.

That info differs from the info in Post #90 as this seems to suggest the min range is 3500m as opposed to 1600m

So unless there is a new version nobody knows about except the X poster it has the same range as Russian OOB weapon 150 so I need to do a bit more digging into this to see a new one exists that hasn't been documented yet

Good 3D view here

https://p.turbosquid.com/ts-thumb/E8/VqIr7b/fY/tos2_prev06/jpg/1676722306/1920x1080/fit_q99/e5cc31a00416f14be24bfc07ef97c7bc4bbe03a9/tos2_prev06.jpg

WIP https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16941&stc=1&d=1697812151

[DRG]

Also, both

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/10/16/the-kremlin-sent-men-to-die-in-70-year-old-fighting-vehicle-making-a-suicidal-assault-on-ukrainian-defenses/?sh=17571fa1b876

and

https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/ukraine_destroys_russian_stalin-era_museum_piece_btr-50p_apc.html

Report

Seven months ago, the Kremlin began pulling out of long-term storage BTR-50 tracked armored personnel carriers, up-arming them in some cases and sending them toward the front line in Ukraine.

It was a remarkable development. The BTR-50 is old. As its designation implies, it was designed and first fielded in the 1950s.

But after 21 months of hard fighting that has cost the Russian military thousands of fighting vehicles, the Kremlin is desperate for replacement APCs. Seventy-year-old BTR-50s sometimes are the best it can do.

A BTR-50 apparently was among the Russian losses after Ukrainian mines, artillery, drones and anti-tank teams smashed several long columns of armored vehicles attempting to flank Avdiivka from the south and north.

In a heady several days of fighting, the Russians lost scores of vehicles. It seems one BTR-50 rolled over a mine, exploded and flipped upside down. A Ukrainian drone captured the carnage as the bodies of the BTR’s occupants spilled onto the road.

and as a summation ( Forbes )

As a symbol, the attack so far has failed. If the assault stands for anything, it stands for failure. The Kremlin sent troops to die in an obsolete vehicle as part of an ill-prepared force pursuing an objective with little real military value.

[Suhiir]

Report
Seven months ago, the Kremlin began pulling out of long-term storage BTR-50 tracked armored personnel carriers, up-arming them in some cases and sending them toward the front line in Ukraine.

Nothing wrong with the BTR-50 as a battle taxi. Heck the AAV-7(1972), LVT-5 (1956), and M3 Halftrack (1941) are still in use. That said sending ANY battle taxi into the front lines is dangerous. They should unload at the closest available covered spot to the front lines and get outta Dodge.

[DRG]

......sometimes the "closest available covered spot " is hard to find or not as covered as was thought

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgD4w8y7LVI

[Suhiir]

S--t happens.

If war was safe maybe we could convince the politicians fight them and let the young folk stay home.

[MarkSheppard]

https://twitter.com/AndreiBtvt/status/1714784359725822409

Ukrainian Ministry of Defense has officially adopted three modifications of Leopard tanks for the AFU - Leopard 2A6, Leopard 2A5 and Leopard 1A5 tanks. The corresponding orders were signed by the Minister of Defense of Ukraine Rustem Umerov.

Someone else on Twitter pointed out the significance of this -- officially adopting them is a very strong sign that the AFU is going to keep these Leopard marks postwar.

[MarkSheppard]

https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/17czlnm/stridsvagn_122_this_tank_instills_great_fear/

StrV 122s (aka Leo 2A5 variant) are shown near the front with their "Barracuda" anti-IR camouflage installed.

[MarkSheppard]

Ukraine now apparently has HAWK SAMs

https://twitter.com/Inside_the_AFU/status/1716344425037611457?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

На відео – бойова робота американського ЗРК HAWK цієї ночі, який поряд із більш сучасними зенітними ракетними системами союзників, боронить українське небо!

The video shows the combat work of the American HAWK air defense system this night, which, along with the more modern anti-aircraft missile systems of the allies, defends the Ukrainian sky!

We'll have to wait a bit to see clearer daytime proofs of the firing battery, etc.

[MarkSheppard]

https://twitter.com/Archer83Able/status/1716582828048101415

The 93rd Separate Mechanized Brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine published a video confirming that the unit is operating Swedish-delivered CV9040 armored fighting vehicles.

Note that all vehicles seen here are equipped with Barracuda multi-spectral camouflage.

Barracuda is pretty good.

https://i.imgur.com/2fok9MM.jpg

[DRG]

Does anyone want to make a guess what this is launching?
Those are very narrow tubes


https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1j6NIW.img?w=1920&h=1080&q=60&m=2&f=jpg

[Dion]

Could be nets to catch drones. I imagine they would have to be small to be able to unravel correctly, and when fired they would have to be timed for accurate precision since they would be extra susceptible to gravity. Since their probably susceptible to wind effects too, you would have to shoot a bunch of them at the same time to cover a large enough area for them to be effective.

[MarkSheppard]

Apropos of the earlier debate; the Bradley has been absolutely mogging places...there's tons of footage of two Bradleys engaging a T-90M and coming out the victor. :D

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

It looks like a smaller caliber version of the "RAK-SA-12 rocket launchers in caliber 128mm of Croatian manufacture." which the Ukrainians also already have.

The trailer mount from yours looks the same as it vice the smaller tubes rocket tubes (Possibly 70mm or 100mm) in comparison the RAK-SA-12 128mm.
https://special-ops.org/128mm-rak-12-mlrs-croatia/
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/nice_replacement_for_handmade_launchers_ukrainian_ forces_receive_croatian_trailer_mlrs-6575.html
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/who_are_the_artisans_behind_the_handmade_rocket_la unchers_on_pick_ups_and_grenade_dropping_drones-4637.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[MarkSheppard]

Apropos of the earlier debate; the Bradley has been absolutely mogging places...there's tons of footage of two Bradleys engaging a T-90M and coming out the victor. :D

New footage of it showing 25mm effect on that T-90M

https://twitter.com/Archer83Able/status/1747750720374256047

[DRG]

Thinking perhaps some of the pyrotechnics could be reactive armour.....maybe

[Dion]

Looks like Blaster shots from Star Wars. They must be using some type of new, high velocity, rapid firing munitions.

[MarkSheppard]

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1748103323339653475

Better view of one Ukrainian Bradley showing the armor configuration.

https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1746436034613624916

Footage of Ukrainian Abrams somewhere...showing the ARAT-1 add on armor configuration chosen.

[MarkSheppard]

HAWK comes out of the shadows and is seen for the first time in Ukraine in clear photos.

https://twitter.com/markito0171/status/1747906809770213544

Noteworthy: Missiles still have US ARMY painted on them, and the date of mfg of that missile is July 1981.

Another photo shows that Army/USMC missiles are mixed together

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GEIvWEkWcAA6eUH?format=jpg&name=large

[MarkSheppard]

Another crazy one off to make Don and Andy's head hurt. :hurt:

https://twitter.com/TheDeadDistrict/status/1747306706152071223

Ukrainian BMP hull with a Russian BMD-2 turret. I guess pieced together from salvage -- take 4 wrecked vehicles to get one working vehicle.

[DRG]

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1748103323339653475

Better view of one Ukrainian Bradley showing the armor configuration.

https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1746436034613624916

Footage of Ukrainian Abrams somewhere...showing the ARAT-1 add on armor configuration chosen.

Interestingly they are still in the desert tan paint....maybe a little more "used" looking now

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16964&stc=1&d=17056585335

[MarkSheppard]

I think AFU has two bradley colors now:

1.) Initial Bradleys delivered in teh initial tranche; these were repainted in AFU Green.

2.) Replacement bradleys delivered to replace losses -- about 15 were delivered -- the famous T-90 killer is one of these and seems to be desert tan base color -- no time to repaint, replace losses RFN.

It seems like AFU mix-match external armor as needed ; the Bradley T-90 killer is mostly desert tan, but has green ERA blocks; while I've seen AFU green bradleys with desert ERA blocks.

[DRG]

I think AFU has two bradley colors now:

1.) Initial Bradleys delivered in teh initial tranche; these were repainted in AFU Green.

2.) Replacement bradleys delivered to replace losses -- about 15 were delivered -- the famous T-90 killer is one of these and seems to be desert tan base color -- no time to repaint, replace losses RFN.

It seems like AFU mix-match external armor as needed ; the Bradley T-90 killer is mostly desert tan, but has green ERA blocks; while I've seen AFU green bradleys with desert ERA blocks.

So basically... "Anything goes"

[Suhiir]

During Desert Shield/Storm I only had one desert uniform, my other (and a 2nd spare in my "in the rear gear") was standard forest cammo.
Most of the equipment was green when it arrived in theater but was repainted to desert.

Now that we're more-or-less done in Iraq/Afghanistan I expect everything to be repainted green over the next few years.
But certain items (i.e. ERA blocks) will be used "as is" till the stocks are gone.

[DRG]

Apropos of the earlier debate; the Bradley has been absolutely mogging places...there's tons of footage of two Bradleys engaging a T-90M and coming out the victor. :D

New footage of it showing 25mm effect on that T-90M

https://twitter.com/Archer83Able/status/1747750720374256047

Ah.... sweet irony

Video Games Helped Ukrainian Bradley Gunner Win Duel With Russian T-90M Tank

The Ukrainian Bradley Fighting Vehicle gunner whose attack on a Russian T-90M Breakthrough tank was captured in a viral video says playing video games helped prepare him for that engagement.

In an interview with the Ukrainian TCH media outlet, that soldier, identified only as “Serhiy,” explained he’d just recently returned to Ukraine in December from Bradley training in Germany. Also the vehicle commander, he and his driver, Oleksandr, were only on their second mission together. Members of the 47th Separate Mechanized Brigade, their job was to protect troops in a trench under fire from Russian tanks.

Going up against a heavily armored T-90M, Russia's most advanced frontline tank armed with a 125mm cannon, with the Bradley's 25mm chain gun was risky, said Serhiy.

“Yes, it was very scary,” he said. “But I think we did well.”

“I can’t express what it means to see a tank in the sights,” said Serhiy. “In training, I was saying, ‘God forbid I see a tank in the sights.’ It so happened that I did, and very close.”

“There was another crew that came first. It didn’t work out, so we had to muster up the courage and go.”

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/video-games-helped-ukrainian-bradley-gunner-win-duel-with-russian-t-90m-tank?utm_source=spotim&utm_medium=spotim_recirculation&spot_im_redirect_source=pitc


There are several comments. This one is interesting

But was impressive but not reported in the two articles dedicated to this event, was the coordination needed between the Bradleys and drone operators to take down that T-90.

Which is what I suggested when I posted that scenario I built of the incident

[Suhiir]

Which is what I suggested when I posted that scenario I built of the incident

Mini-drones are spectacular at spotting targets for ATGMs!

[MarkSheppard]

More craziness (at this point it might be worth putting all this stuff into BLUE or RED to save Russian slots.)

https://twitter.com/CovertShores/status/1749553432854196286
and
https://twitter.com/JanR210/status/1749551826494456222

The Russians are now fitting T-80B hulls with RBU-6000 naval launchers to fire RGB-60 bombs (212mm rockets).

[Mobhack]

Ah, so they have reinvented the Matilda Hedgehog, then?:D

[DRG]

More craziness (at this point it might be worth putting all this stuff into BLUE or RED to save Russian slots.)

https://twitter.com/CovertShores/status/1749553432854196286
and
https://twitter.com/JanR210/status/1749551826494456222

The Russians are now fitting T-80B hulls with RBU-6000 naval launchers to fire RGB-60 bombs (212mm rockets).


if you Google

RBU-6000 naval rocket launcher

you will find quite a selection of improvise launchers most on MT-LB or variants ( and there is no real need for most of them )

[MarkSheppard]

Another RBU-6000 variant found :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/TheDeadDistrict/status/1750075968805286137

A russian RBU-6000 Smerch-2 213 mm caliber russian anti-submarine rocket launcher established on Ural truck.

[DRG]

Yep and both sides are improvising like that

[MarkSheppard]

New Swedish arms package:

Things of note:

RBS-70 MANPADs
10 x CB 90 combat boats

~1 billion more SEK to the Swedish-Danish joint procurement of CV 90s for Ukraine.

[MarkSheppard]

ABRAMS IN ACTION

https://twitter.com/CasualArtyFan/status/1760991111521206274

Outside of Avdiivka, the 47th Mechanized Brigade uses M1A1 Abrams Tanks to slow the Russian advance.

While only 31 were given so far, the 47th says they’ve been used for over a month with great effect

https://twitter.com/EjShahid/status/1760984710392730062

https://twitter.com/TheDeadDistrict/status/1760985166649110709

Also first semi confirmed Abrams hull loss, a M1150 ABV near Avadika.

https://twitter.com/Pion_2S7/status/1760751056009527575?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Also M2 Bradley in operation near Avadika as well:

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1757923220806606898

US-supplied M2A2 Bradley IFV in Ukrainian service with the 47th Mechanized brigade, fighting in Avdiivka last month.

There's scenario possibilities there..

[MarkSheppard]

French have released this list:

https://www.defense.gouv.fr/sites/default/files/ministere-armees/Liste%20des%20%C3%A9quipements%20livr%C3%A9s%20%C3 %A0%20l'Ukraine_0.pdf

Below, the quantitative list of military equipment actually delivered to Ukraine since the start of Russia's aggression on Ukrainian territory on February 24, 2022, until December 31, 2023 (deliveries of equipment carried out since 2024).

(Trimmed down for revelance to SPMBT)

• Night vision binoculars: 445
• AT4 rocket launcher system: 1,002
• Milan ATGM system: 3 launches, confidential number of missiles
• TRF1 155mm towed howitzer :6 cannons
• Caesar 155mm self propelled howitzer: 30 cannons
• LRU M270 MLRS Launchers: 4 units
• 120 mm mortars: 10
• Rattlesnake NG SAM (aka Crotale): 2 launchers, confidential # of missiles
• Mistral SAM: 6 launchers, confidential # of missiles
• SAMP/T SAM: 1 launcher, confidential # of missiles

Armored vehicles

• AMX10 RC: 38
• Armed VAB and medical VAB: 250

[DRG]

I have added the VAB. The AMX10 was already in.

AMX10 vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaWA4Y2xGJM

Stumbled onto an interesting factiod

Ukraine's average soldiers age is 43.......... that is right around the age in most armies now words like " I'm getting too old for this S#!T" are spoken.....

[Pibwl]

I couldn't restrain myself from posting, when I found this exceptional quailty video, what happens in a real life, when you fire at a hex with BTR-82A and its squad from a Bradley, possibly mortars, and on a minefield...

Warning: very graphic brutality.

https://twitter.com/wolski_jaros/status/1764750008027377941

[Dion]

Broken link. Guess it was removed. I suppose it was too graphic even for the internet. It must have been a whopper.

[Pibwl]

I don't kow, it works when I click. However when I try on a different browser, where I am not logged to "X", it doesn't. I only occassionally use this portal, so I'm not sure how it works. Maybe it is that I follow Polish OSINT channel @wolski_jaros

[MarkSheppard]

https://twitter.com/AFVRec_/status/1772732087616835789

Out of all the vehicles that have been pulled out of storage and used by Russia in this war, this is one that was really at the bottom of my list to even see in theatre, never mind be destroyed.

The video shows what appears to be a Ladoga protected command vehicle, I won’t talk too much about it here as I made a whole post on the vehicle, so check below for the full info on it, in short it was designed to move senior Kremlin staff around under safety in the event of a nuclear attack, it was trialled in 1986 at the Chernobyl NPP.

Based on T-80 chassis with superstructure installed in place of turret.

https://twitter.com/AFVRec_/status/1695401878694043992

The Ladoga’s main test would be in Spring 1986 in Chernobyl, Ukrainian SSR. The vehicle with the callsign 317 was transported from Leningrad, Russian SFSR to Kyiv, Ukrainian SSR in May, the vehicle then went to the power plant to conduct chemical reconnaissance of the area, the vehicle was not alone and had a full CBRN company along with it, including decontamination systems as well as doctors and support troops. Supposedly the Ladoga even conducted extreme close up reconnaissance of the power plant, apparently inside the reactor room. The testing ended in Autumn that year, where it was sent back to Leningrad.

‘In total, from May 3 to September 28, 1986, "Ladoga" passed more than 4,720 km, overcoming sections with a background of up to 1600 R/hour, entering the engine room of the Chernobyl NPP, performing reconnaissance of the area in the territory adjacent to the fourth power unit. VTS "Ladoga" conducted a reconnaissance study of the area of the adjacent area, making video recordings of the most dangerous places and performing other works near the city of Pripyat and the destroyed power unit of the nuclear power plant.’


https://twitter.com/AFVRec_/status/1695402021740802417

According to sources no more than 4/5 vehicles were produced, including a prototype for testing in different areas of the USSR. There is 1x Ladoga on display in Patriot Park in the city of Kamensk-Shakhtinsky (Rostov Region). The fate of the other vehicles are unknown.

[DRG]

It looks like Russian Unit 853 --BMR-3M/MA -- without the mine clearing device


https://i.imgur.com/iRKtO6o.png

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/d0/69/88/d06988aa6a5d47f974328d32a30bdcf3.jpg