Sniping

[chris h]

Is there any point at sniping at a vehicle? An armoured vehicle button up no but anything else should be possible.

[Dudi]

It depends on how thick the armor is that a sniper's bullet can penetrate. Shooting without antimaterial rifle at a tank makes no sense, but shooting trucks and light vehicles does.

[chris h]

True, but a tank leader with half his body sticking out the top or if a tank is carrying units should be viable but snipers don't seem to hit anything.

[DRG]

What sniping at an armoured vehicle does is force the unit to button up which effects it's spotting ability for things like scouts or AT units lurking in the weeds

[Mobhack]

And if buttoned up, it is more difficult to hit things with it when firing, its number of shots etc can be reduced.

Plus a buttoned vehicle is easier for infantry to close assault. So spray down any tank you are intending to assault before the assault if its status is not buttoned (or worse).

And of course, if the rifle section doing the hose-down has big HE lumps - like 50mm D/F mortars - then it may even get an immobilising track hit as well.

And finally - the AI (and some humans!) likes tank riders, especially in WW2. Hosing the advancing tanks when they have not yet debussed turns riders into people pate. I always have heavy MG units out in WW2 to make some pate at 1000+ metres! (MG have the range, and also have a blast effect on neighbouring hexes, so I choose the packs of bunched up tanks)

[chris h]

What sniping at an armoured vehicle does is force the unit to button up which effects it's spotting ability for things like scouts or AT units lurking in the weeds

Yes it does that but I've never seen a tank take any damage. e.g. crew kill.

[DRG]

It is very rare but so is crew losses from direct fie AP attacks. but it does happen. The main benfit of sniping at an unbottoned tank is to get them to button up

[cbo]

I've just read Buckleys book about British Army in Normandy and he quotes a few stats on tank crew casualties from the ORS reports.

50% of losses happened to crews while inside their tanks.
13% happened when crews were partially exposed, mostly tank commanders commanding their tanks from an open hatch.
12% of losses happened to crews while bailing out or seeking cover after bailing out.
18% of losses happened to crews off duty outside their tanks.
7% happened outside the tanks in circumstances unaccounted for.

In game terms, I assume that tank being "unbuttoned" effectively means
that some of the crew har their heads out of the hatches, as situational awareness drops when the tank is buttonned up per Mobhacks post.

Still, none ofthis says something directly about the risk of crew casualties while "unbuttoned" in game terms, i.e. how often should the crew suffer losses when an unbottoned tank is fired upon.

But it does indicate that it was not without risk of crew casualties to drive around with you hatches open.

As I understand it, it was normal for the crew members in British tanks to train for at least two and often more crewpositions. And as a tank without a commander would be useless, one would assume, that in case the commander became a casualty, the crew would redistribute roles and, the situation permitting, swap positions.

So, in game terms, the tank taking suppression and buttoning up does reflect the situation where a crewmember becomes a casualty, because it makes the tank less effective, even if a crew casualty is not actually registered. Ideally, the tank taking a crew casualty should remain less effective throughout a game, but given the scale of the game, I think it the current modelling is quite reasonable - you get benefits from firing at a tank, even if your weapons cannot destroy or damage it.

[sigeena]

Just to add on. The AT Rifles are pretty useful to quickly button an armoured vehicle. May just be their higher accuracy, but it usually buttons the target faster than MGs.

They are also usually size 0, so they remain harder to detect as well.

[DRG]

Anything that make a loud CLANG! on the armour.. or a rapid series of lesser ones will encourage buttoning up you just need to find the one that works best with the weapons you have at hand

[Felix Nephthys]

Anything that make a loud CLANG! on the armour.. or a rapid series of lesser ones will encourage buttoning up you just need to find the one that works best with the weapons you have at hand

I find it essential to do this in the game, especially when playing as Japanese where you might only have an AT rifle sneaking around looking for a shot to the rear of the vehicle. You have to rattle their cages by any means necessary. This is why I like to play as Japanese, it's nerve wracking but incredibly rewarding when you can get the shot like that. It also shows why your tanks always need infantry with them for cover fire. Never leave home without it.

[lansoar]

Is there any point at sniping at a vehicle? An armoured vehicle button up no but anything else should be possible.

Yes it is worth doing in general. SP is a game that has an ancestry code wise going all the way back to 1985. One can argue whether the direct path is Kampfgruppe or Panzer Grenadier...both released in that year.

Many changes/enhancements have been made over the decades of course but from the interactions i've had during testing/development i've been told more than once that basic elements of the GG code date all the way back to inception. That being said, and based on playing the game....absolutely, it is beneficial to fire small arms fire at an AFV. A quaint aspect of the earliest games is that the designers would literally tell you in the documentation what effect such actions would take, even posting the actual formula. In the case of Kampfgruppe, which i consider SP's direct ancestor......a unit can have a suppression level from 0 - 200%

at >99% suppression the unit can no longer search. below that chance based on suppression level. exception: same hex is always searched

Fire effect is reduced by 1/3 based on suppression. (hence you can see why the max suppression # was 200 in that game)

units with >50% suppression may not move. AKA....they become PINNED

You can see immediately how this impacts AFVs when this final rule is applied:

AFVs cannot gain more than 50% suppression max. Hence, in Kampfgruppe....they can never be pinned and their fire accuracy penalty is only so impacted. In modern SP parlance, past and present....this equates to the status of "Buttoned." So an AFV with 50% suppression will suffer an accuracy and search penalty.....but can never be PINNED. It also won't suffer at base, as bad an impact on accuracy and search.

This again, was the basis for SP's ancestor Kampfgruppe. That game did not have a specific exp or morale factor. You only had an overall scenerio difficulty level. Obviously SP adds much more to the situation, EXP/Morale in particular could lead to status levels such as Retreat or Routed. Once you have those additional checks rolled....it can lead to different status results.

Of course you have to judge based on your specific tactical situation. For example, when you have your soft unit fire, there's a chance you will be spotted and counter-attacked, thus ruining a chance for a close assault situation if the AFV closes the distance. Thats the beauty of this mature game. Add in the classic random die roll factors and you can never be quite sure what your result will be.