what about the future?
 

Hi,

As an old Dom1-Dom2-Dom3 player who had quitted playing this awesome game since some years already, I wanted to know if there is any plan to have a true scripting language for Dominions,so that people could at last make kind of 'campaigns' scenarios, with triggers and events.

Or is it that dom3 progress is ended, baring bugs? :doh:

Re: what about the future?
 

It seems pretty much ended.
Illwinter is working on a new project (thats all we know other than they ARE working hard on it)

Some creative 3rd party fan work has allowed for games that have triggers and events. But only for server run MP games. Nothing yet that would work for solo play.

Re: what about the future?
 

The future is bright.

Re: what about the future?
 

Thank you Gandalf for taking the time to answer. You truely were and still is instrumental in the success of the Dominions serie, believe me :)

That's a pity really that they never saw the interest a true scripting language could had for their game. It would have enabled the rabid fans here to build whole dynamic worlds, thus enabling Dominions to raise to a new success level.

Perhaps they will revisit the game once their new puppy is out, this is all I can wish.

Re: what about the future?
 

lol

Re: what about the future?
 

A scripting language needs to be built into a game from the beginning IMHO.
I think that we are lucky we are getting as much modding access as we are considering that much of it was added to the game at a late date.

I do have hopes for scripting in their new project.

Re: what about the future?
 

The dominions codebase is really neat in a lot of respects - but it also shows it's age. I don't have access to the source code, but just from diving into the built-in tables you can see the accumulated cruft of ages, and a lot of things are hard-coded or messy hacks which will cause accumulated headaches down the line if they try to keep working on it.

That said, it is amazing how extensible and stable it is (and how small a footprint it has, which is really a hallmark of an earlier era), but I can see why they wouldn't want to add true scripting support - either for user-modded events, user-modded maps/scenarios, or user-modded spells.

Re: what about the future?
 

Johan really comes from an earlier era, and it shows in the code, though I have to emphasize that I admire him for actually coding a whole game on his own. You'd weep when I tell you the specifications about the file format for the sprites, and why they are saved in the way they are. The game still is a derivative of an Atari Falcon ST game.

I'm more interested in what this new game that they apparently are working on will look like instead of having unreasonable expectations of big changes like a scripting engine to this one, which already has been asked for over and over again since forever. The refactoring this would require is pretty much insurmountable.

Re: what about the future?
 

So nobody know anything about the 'new' project? Nothing?

Man, Im currius :)

Re: what about the future?
 

Many know at least some of the new project. But its tightly bound up with NDA's (non-disclosure agreements). Its a tight house.
Even parts of Dom3 and Dom2 are still bound in NDA's

Re: what about the future?
 

I get the picture.

Still, I'm realy currius about the 'next thing', and asking is not goverened by any NDA's :D

Re: what about the future?
 

Oh, this was revealed a while back:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showp...0&postcount=15

Re: what about the future?
 

I was actually looking for something that was NOT an 1 of april joke...

Re: what about the future?
 

That was one of the better ones though.
There are a number of Dom4 threads that had some very creative guesses.

Re: what about the future?
 

Hey! Revealing that info doubtless cost me the opportunity to be a playtester on dominions 4. Show a little gratitude for my sacrifices - I went out and bought an xbox 360 for nothing.

Re: what about the future?
 

Very interesting. Where I can find this fan made 3rd party work? I guess server side scripting of events and triggers huh?

Re: what about the future?
 

See Illuminated One's Dom 3 Scripting Framework:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43892

Re: what about the future?
 

The "dungeon master" mods were started partly for that purpose. I think it was all discussion until my Watcher mod http://www.dom3minions.com/mods.htm
Now there are a GameMaster, Debug, Pantokrator and some others I cant remember (apologies).

They all are designed to one person, the Game Master if you wish, access to the game in order to do more than just participate. Discussion included
a) enter the game and check on things from the inside
b) enter to get a map view
c) enter to grab an image of the score graphs
d) enter to send messages to everyone in the game such as to add flavor to the game
e) viewing and recording combats without being one of the participants
f) using messages and spells to duplicate and expand on events

Expansion of (f) is these events could use the same settings as present ones but expand them. Such as random numbers, turn counter, scales, terrain, seasons. They could also make use of anything that can be pulled from a games log if debugging is turned on including the taking or using of certain sites, arenas and their results, entry of certain factors into the game.

Re: what about the future?
 

Stardock has done quite the opposite with the game they're currently working. We're talking about a couple developer journals every week with screenshots and game details. This method is generating more talk and discussion about this future game. "WORD OF MOUTH" is one of the main reasons for a successful game... NOT how quiet the developers were able to keep the game unknown. Stardock actually has the smartest move for a successful game as compared with the ultra hush silent treatment which is such a 1990s trend.

Re: what about the future?
 

That would depend on the developers.
Many of the suggestions for Dom3 were killed purely by the way they were discussed. No matter what the logic was, if it was demanded or belittled or sarcasmed then it could die. If Illwinter disclosed the details of their project to this crowd, Id suspect that the fun would go out of the development. Im not sure that it could survive us. Its better to get something than to chance getting nothing.

Everything has its pros and cons.

Re: what about the future?
 

Very very insightful.

You can sometimes see the Stardock frustrations through their Elemental beta process and they obviously have very thick skins. Ultimately, for them, it has been very positive in terms of weeding out the bad concepts and introducing new ones but the frustrations with community expectations do rise to the surface occasionally.

But the Stardock Developer Updates are now coming out every couple of days with YouTube videos showing 'warts and all' testing. Extremely interesting to watch as they find something they don't like.

I must say I've got very high expectations for Elemental. :D

Re: what about the future?
 

You know, actually I completely agree with this. I've never seen a game community that wasn't at least *somewhat* hostile to the developers, and this one is no exception. We always think we know better than they do, and are quite willing to say so, loudly ;) I don't mind however JK and KO work on their new project. I'll be content waiting for it to be released, and with any luck, it will give me the years of entertainment playing dom3 has. If they are keeping things on the down low because they don't want us dampening their enthusiasm, well, I don't blame them at all. Instead I will just wish them luck, and hope the new project turns out well.

Re: what about the future?
 

Stardock's a big company witth full time developpers working on their projects. Illwinter doesn't have these resources, and couldn't interact with the community the way Stardock does.

Re: what about the future?
 

If a king ignored a way to solve hunger for his kingdom simply because a village bully presented the idea... then the king made an unwise decision due to personal feelings. This reveals a weakness in the kings character.

If the fun of development is surviving primarily on keeping secrets then the project is really on unstable ground. The project should be able to survive based on creative ideas and a vision. I figured the secrets were because the developers had some contract with Shrapnel games involving keeping the game secret or the developers were following a trend from the 1990s and unaware how to protect their intellectual property during game development.
Overall I guess the success of the game doesn't really matter since Illwinter has never been interested in money.

Re: what about the future?
 

Or perhaps the fun of development is not based on keeping secrets, but based on not having to defend every step and every idea from naysayers.
They've got a group interested mostly because of dominions. Many of whom want a dominions 4 more than any other project. This may be the wrong audience for a new vision.

Re: what about the future?
 

I do see the points on both sides but logical arguments about what should be is moot now.
Its not as if the devs have to guess. They know what this community is like.
And I have to agree with their choices.

Re: what about the future?
 

GP, why is it that in everything you post recently you say something about "both sides"? :)

I miss the days where JK and KO were around more often. I hope we haven't chased them away by making it too unwelcome for them here. But as I said before, I can't really blame them. Even when they do nice things for us recently (like the latest patch) all they ever hear from us is whining and complaining. So it is no wonder if they don't want to have us whining and complaining about their new project. "You're doing THAT instead of making dominions 4?!"

Or they could just be really busy in real life these days, or keeping it a surprise. Who knows? But whatever, they are great guys doing a great job. I don't really care how they do it.

Re: what about the future?
 

NTJedi - I wonder if we should try to create a Dominions 3 mod for Elemental...

Re: what about the future?
 

That would take some time, to get the skins for all the different races, beasts and mythical creatures. I'd love to see it though :up:

Re: what about the future?
 

Yes, weeding out the bad concepts before release is one positive thing that I'd see as well, and why feedback even in the form of criticism isn't bad. Other companies pay a lot of money to do market analysis, they have it as a byproduct.

When I first heard about it a year or so ago I was interested, when I first saw what they had this quickly changed. I did complain very loudly one time about a marketing stunt of theirs which resulted in a statement about those claims, where those were watered down as being misunderstood. Overall I'm interested in whatever they come up with as well, though.

That certainly wouldn't be fun, but it's not like they'd be tailoring the game exactly to the quite probably even changing demands of their audience. It would be advertisement in the form of "look what we did, hot or not?", getting into touch with the potential future customers, instead of just a finished product and one-sided propaganda. Zero feedback would be the worst.

I believe that it's not really about secrets, anyway, but about the fact that for a programmer, and especially for a single working one, documentation is always a very painful thing to do.

What do the devs think this community is like? I'd like to agree with their choices, too.

They never have been unwelcome, they enjoy unquestioned sympathy from the fans. Never mind the front-seat passenger talk - the very first thing I'd bug KO about when I see him here again would be when the map that's never going to be finished is going to be finished. :rolleyes:

Re: what about the future?
 

Oh they love the community in general. As a herd it tends to be wonderful.
But if they were to drop tidbits it would bring out some of the individual bulls which could quite likely knock them off course completely.

Re: what about the future?
 

I agree it's a great idea, especially with all the modding options arriving with the game. It would take a large chunk of time for even the basics such as adding attributes like precision for all current game units.

Re: what about the future?
 

I've already got some plans for Elemental. I am not looking to do a total conversion, just translate all the nations over as factions (Graphics permitting), and add some of the spells and magic items from dominions, as well as some of the magic sites and the indies (Minor Factions)

I am going to use the existing combat mechanics in Elemental and try to translate the units over as best as I can.

Depending on the difficulty, I would like to make the magic system more like dominions/mom (number of books = access to better spells, add nature, blood) and even add scales to set for each sovereign upon creation.

This is all speculation until beta 4 though :).

Re: what about the future?
 

I cannot guarantee weeping as I am not a programmer, but could you tell it? I like "programming archeology", as Vinge named it. ;)

Re: what about the future?
 

I agree with what DrPraetorious said. Besides even if you would have an access to script language for the world building, events, et cetera, should you try to create really interesting campaign, I strongly suspect that severe limitations of AI would came forth with vengeance. You would likely require sophisticated dev-built tools to mod AI behavior, something that may be very difficult to retrofit into old clunky Dom3 source code. That's entirely different can of worms, especially for a game with such a complex ruleset as Dom3.


to be able to create really good compaigns,

Re: what about the future?
 

You seem to posses some degree of knowledge about this new project. Without revealing any project-related info or encroaching into NDA territory, what are you personal guts feeling - is it something that you think Dom1/2/3 players crowd might enjoy? Or is it so far away from the Dom style of gaming, that you don't think so, or perhaps it is simply too hard to predict?

Re: what about the future?
 

BINGO.
Early on I told people that if they wanted to come up with some AI changes they would be looked at. I provided clips of the debug code around ai actions and invited them to come up with some pseudo code. Some of the threads are still probably around. But anyone that tried found out that even the simplest complaint by the players tended to have a dozen IF this or IF that tied to it.

Re: what about the future?
 

Sorry. I have nothing to give that can tighten peoples impressions of it. If anything, all I have only increases it.

I would buy it today if it was pre-sold. But then I doubt that information tells anyone anything new :) (see title under login)

Re: what about the future?
 

Have we any timeframe on when Illwinters new project will be completed?

1 year, 2 years, 3 years?!?

Re: what about the future?
 

Funny, the other day I tried some extensive searching for some shred of info on the new project. I found absolutely nothing.

Re: what about the future?
 

If you do EXTENSIVE searching you can find comments by Kristoffer and Johan from years ago where they talk about their favorite types of games, the types they considered doing before settling into the Dominions 3 project, and the way they go about development. All of that can give some idea on why some of the quesswork is probably off the mark but its not likely to actually pin down anything.

Im afraid thats about all anyone can get. There are still NDA's in place for things involving Dom3 beta testing, and even Dom2. Any rock-hard info about the new project can only come from Illwinter or Shrapnel and we will all get it at the same time. Anything else can just be considered people having fun with it.

Its been rumored that the beginning of the end was when Dominions 4 supporting eras up to and including space travel was released as an iPhone/iPad/iPod application. Almost instantly came the collapse of other forms of entertainment and communication. So many people were playing at work that the economy collapsed. So many were playing while walking, riding bikes, and even driving that accidents shot up. Soldiers played and only the poorest of countries won any battles. And from the profits we now hear rumblings of a Dominions 5 which will be written for the new matryx direct interface.People are already volunteering in droves to be sealed into life-support pods so that they never need to leave the game.

Re: what about the future?
 

I read those interviews :)

Your dom IV prophecy prose is great. Are you H3? ;)

Re: what about the future?
 

Heehee. Reminds me of this..
http://www.cafepress.com/oddthotz/5662870
which came from a forum conversation...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=39216

(:target: dont read)

Re: what about the future?
 

I remember them talking about a role playing game in the world of dominions, or about a space exploration game (aka Master of orion).

I'm seriusly hoping for the second, but the first will also do...

Re: what about the future?
 

My guess is a Dominions RPG.

Re: what about the future?
 

Dominions in space already exists. It is called VGA Planets (and also Stars!, Galaxy plus; pbem space 4x strategy genre is old as dirt).

Now, a Dominions RPG, if they keep it oldschool, I am sold.

Re: what about the future?
 

I always considered Space Empires IV to be Dominions in Space.
And I always considered Master of Magic to be Dominions with more rpg.

But since we mentioned them...
Stars! is great and I still play it on my machine.

SE-IV is great and I still play it on my machine. SE-V is a great example IMHO of how a great game with a huge modding community can be trashed by taking the game to new sound and 3D graphics.

VGA Planets 3 is fantastic. VGAP4 is in beta and has been for years. Ive had it pre-purchased since 2001. But VGAP4 is too complicated now for anyone to learn or document. I think they will keep adding to it forever and it will never leave beta. But if anyone wants a space game that is too much game, thats a great choice.

Re: what about the future?
 

wow didn't expect vga planets was still played. Used to love that game. Also stars, se-iv, spaceward ho, the sequel to that whatever it was called.. zombies in space? MoM is still the best tho.

Re: what about the future?
 

Kind of funny to see Master of Magic described in that way - don't get me wrong Dominions is good but it aint in the same league as MOM (imho of course.)

I just wish Mare Crisium would appear Phoenix like with Stars Supernova ready to run - now that is game worth waiting for!

Re: what about the future?
 

Yes. Dominions RPG with or w/o ASCII mode (ala angband etc) would be awesome. I'll pre-order :)