Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

Finnish (OOB 35) corrections and suggestions:

NOTE! A lot of armor stuff is applicable to Soviet OOB as well!

Unit 2 FT-17: This tank was called FT-17 "female" in Finland (Translated to English, since the OOB does not use Finnish words elsewhere, either). Since Jan 1938 main weapon was a Maxim M/09-31, which had a rate of fire of 900 rounds per minute. A TMG for that gun should be added to weapons as well. HE Kill would probably be 8. Last availability should be Oct 1943, since a few tanks survived the Winter War and used for training. No radios, so radio code should be 1.

Unit 3 FT-18: called FT-17 "male" in Finland. No APCR ammo was available, so Weapon 12 (37mm Puteaux) should be modified to have an AP Penetration of 1 and the Sabot rounds transferred to AP. Correct total number of rounds was 233. No radios, radio code 1.

Unit 004 Vickers 6s: the Coaxial MG was the Maxim M/09-31 mentioned above. Ammo load 35 HE, 15 AP. No Sabot!

Unit 005 T-26 M31: Turrets' armor was less than 10mm all-around, so SP armor value for turret should be 1 for all faces. No radios, so radio code should be 1 (actually this tank was pretty common in Finnish use in 1941, so radio code could be also 0, but that's up to you).

Unit 006 T-26 M33: I would give this one radio code 2, since it was the most common of T-26 variants in Finnish service. Only command tanks had radios in any case, so no chance for others to get them.

Unit 007 T-26 (OT-130): probably radio code 1 would be suitable. The numbers of these conversions is unknown, but it could not have been very significant.

Unit 008 T-26 M37: radio code could be changed to 2, because this variant was pretty common since summer 1941, although not quite as common as Unit 006 above.

Unit 009 T-26 (OT-133): probably radio code 1 as per unit 007.

Unit 010 T-26E: radio code 0, no radios except in some command tanks.

Unit 011 BT-5: my sources give it turret side armor of 15mm (2) and front hull armor of 30 mm for lower front hull. The 13mm upper hull front is also well sloped (http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/BT5_2.jpg), so the penetration path at 90 degrees would surely be at least 20mm. Therefore I would give it a total hull front armor value of no less than 3. Max speed on road with tracks about 50 km/h (Speed 17). Last ones were retired from Finnish service in Spring 1942, so end date should be no later than June 1942. Radio code should be 1; despite fairly large numbers captured, the Finnish army never used the BT tanks much.

Unit 012 BT-7: hull side armor 15mm (2). The hull front was well sloped (http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/BT7_2.jpg) with 15-20mm of armor, so I would give it armor value 3. Radio code and availability as Unit 011.

Unit 013 T-50: turret side armor was 37+14mm (the applique was not installed on all Soviet T-50 tanks). Hull sides also 37mm.

Unit 014 T-28: turret front and side and rear armor was only 20mm. You may want to add something from the gun mantlet and rounding, but at least the current TF value of 5 is excessive. Upper hull front 15mm, but well sloped and lower front hull 30mm with some slope. HF value 6 is still clearly too much. Hull sides and rear 20mm. Top armor was less than 25mm on average, so top armor value should be 2. Machine gun turrets 20-22mm. 70 rounds for the main gun. Max. road speed was 45 km/h (15). The optics were half-decent for aiming the gun, so I would give it FC value 2. All tanks had a radio, so radio probability should be 50+.

Unit 015 T-28E: turret front and sides 80mm, turret rear 40mm. Upper hull front 58mm (+slope), lower 30mm, driver 80mm (the current HF value 8 is probably OK otherwise, but the thinly armored machine gun turrets are a problem). Hull rear remained at 18-20mm. Machine gun turrets 30-32mm. Top armor was not upgraded. Top speed 33 hm/h (11). Otherwise as Unit 014.

Units 016, 017, 018: harmonize unit data with the current Soviet OOB. Currently they differ especially in armor. Move Sabot ammunition to regular AP, since practically no APCR was available to the Finns. Radio probabilities should be higher. More than half of the Finnish T-34/76 tanks had a radio, since the ones bought from Germany all had a radio.

Unit 019 T-34 M44: change name to T-34/85, which was the most common designation used for this tank by the Finnish Army. Harmonize other data with current Soviet OOB. Move Sabot ammunition to regular AP.

Unit 020 KV-1c: Harmonize data with Soviet OOB unit 023. Move Sabot ammunition to regular AP. Finnish designation was KV-1A, if you want to confuse people even more ;) (possibly KV-1A (M1942) would be acceptable?)

Unit 020 KV-1e: Harmonize data with Soviet OOB. Finnish designation was KV-1B, if you want to confuse people even more ;) (possibly KV-1B (KV-1E) would be acceptable?)

Unit 022 Panssar IVJ: all had a radio, so radio code should be 92. Turret skirts were still in place in 1944, so turret armor should be harmonized with German unit 745. Icon should also be 1301 in 1944. Later turret skirts were removed. It happened some time in spring 1945, so Jan 1945 is probably as good time as any. A second unit identical to the current Unit 022 should be created for that.

Unit 024 ISU-152: harmonize data with Soviet OOB unit 038.

Unit 024 BA-10: replace with BA-6 (currently missing) from Soviet OOB unit 311. Keep the current availability start (Feb 1940), extend end to Dec 1946.

Unit 025 BA-10+: rename to plain BA-10, available since Apr 1940 until Dec 1946. Harmonize other data with Soviet Unit 041 BA-10, except ammo total 43 rounds (should probably be corrected to the Soviet unit as well). As recon vehicles the BA-10 usually had radios, so radio chance should be much higher than 20. (The radio chance of 10 is quite low for the Soviet unit as well, although late production examples after the German invasion often did not have a radio).

Unit 111 BA-3: no radios.

Unit 112 BA-20M: all had a radio at least in pre-invasion production. (Applied to earlier BA-20 as well in case you want to adjust the Soviet OOB). Max speed 70 km/h (23).

Unit 113 FAI: no radios (radio code 0).

Unit 301 Turret Bunker: change weapon, FC, RF and turret armor as per unit 2.

Unit 302 Turret Bunker: should have same turret armor and FC/RF as Units 2 & 3, no Sabot but regular AP as Unit 3. ROF 8 (where did that 6 come from?).

Units 304-315: change name to Casemate, since a word with common etymology (kasematti) is also used in Finnish (both come from Italian casamatta).

Suggest addition of MG units with 7.92mm Maxim MG-08. Import weapon 122 from German OOB (While pondering why it has a higher HE Kill than other 7-8mm Maxim MGs and MGs with similar cyclic rate of fire and belt feed :rolleyes:). About 1,000 of these weapons were used by the Finnish coastal troops and fortification units.

Changes to artillery and AAMG units were recommended already in the Weapons post (PART 1).

Sources: mostly Jaeger Platoon website: http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/MAIN.html

The Jaeger Platoon site contains some incredible research, including lots of digging into primary sources like war diaries and field manuals, which are not available on-line. I suggest it for anyone interested in WW1/WW2 Finnish and Soviet equipment (some German stuff as well). For Finnish Army WW2 weapons and vehicles it is the best single source that exists anywhere.

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

Why does everyone assume that a sabot round has to be a superior anti-tank round over any plain AP???

This gun is the precise opposite. It was deliberately given a short-range special round so it can only penetrate armour at minute range, but still have a decent range for its (primary) HE round.

Note the range for the sabot - the only AP round for the Puteaux 37mm! - is 4 hexes... it is not a tungsten-carbide HVAP!. (If you gave it an AP round with 1 AP value it would be able to plink armoured cars etc with 1 armour at its maximal range of 1.5 km on occasion.)

And we have been saying that for as many years as this game has been out but still somebody comes along, does not look at the basic game data, and assumes its a super-hot "silver bullet" round that the 37mm Puteaux has because its a "sabot"!.

In fact - due to the rapid pull-down in AP value over a range of merely 4 - its optimal anti-tank performance is in the 1- or perhaps 2 hexes range. Look at the figures in APCalc for that gun and generally ignore the "best" result as that is the once in a blue moon case.

The 37mm Puteaux is one of the few (or only?) cases where AP round #2 (commonly called 'sabot') - is an especially slugged item. Its there for throwing HE and if you want to kill tanks - then you'll have to waddle up and place the muzzle against the enemy tank's paintwork, basically...

Andy

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

Okay Andy, I understand what you mean and what's the rationale behind the short range "Sabot" round, but my point is that such external ballistics are quite unrealistic for the kind plain jane AP shot the gun actually fired (basically a big bullet). The shot was a heavy steel slug with fairly high sectional density and low muzzle velocity.

Without knowing the projectile shape one can't fully estimate its ballistic coefficient, but chances are the V(drop) was not very high. In other words, penetrating 20mm at 50 meters and less than 5mm at 150 meters is not how the physics work for such projectiles. It is, however, pretty much how they work for high velocity but relatively light and odd-shaped APCR projectiles, especially early ones, which were quite unstable.

I added the AP Pen 1 as I suggested, looked at the results of APCALC, and frankly the penetration numbers of the AP look much better and more realistic to me. AP Pen is 1 and Best AP is 2 until 150m. After that you get best AP 1 until max range (1500 meters), which is not that unrealistic if the likelyhood of Best AP occurring is really only 0.1 percent as the WW2_APCalc_Help.TXT file indicates. Even if it's one magnitude higher, plinking an armored car at 1500 meters with a 1% chance does not sound bad at all -- after all, most of those ACs and tankettes with armor value 1 in SP had only 5 to 9 mm of armor in reality.

There is one final point to this discussion: the French actually developed a real APCR round for the 37mm L/21 SA18 gun in the mid-1930. It was issued to modern light tanks with that gun (R-35 and H-35) and was used in 1940 with good effect against German PzKw I and II light tanks. Armor penetration was really about 30mm at 100 meters and useful range about 500 meters (that means penetration was equal or better than the 19th century vintage AP shot up to 500 meters). I see it is even modeled in the French OOB as Weapon 12 37mm SA18 m.37, although as much more expensive round it never fully replaced the old shot in real life.

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

Perhaps - but that weapon was set up that way after much discussion on the old Yahoo! forum for the DOS edition 10+ years back.

I'd thought it was in the Mobhack help file as a counter-example, but it looks like that was never done. It will be added this update cycle though. (The technique was later applied to field guns that needed an AP shot but that have extremely long HE ranges).

Andy

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

37mm SA-18 couldn't be all that rubbish, if Polish armoured cars wz.29 recorded several destroyed armoured cars and light tanks, including Pz-I with 13mm armour (http://derela.republika.pl/wz29.htm ). Most probably they had standard AP shots, and I doubt, if all cases were point-blank.

I've just read a Polish source, that steel 37mm bullet pierced 15 mm of cast iron at 1000 m (which is of course not armour, though). All in all, I feel, that range 4 should be increased a bit, maybe doubled.

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

The material properties of (grey) cast iron are quite different from any quality armor steel, most notably its tensile strength and toughness are much lower even though it's pretty hard.(White cast iron is very hard, but I doubt they used it for testing). So I can't even guess what that penetration might be against armor steel plate of any hardness.

As for the combat experience, it is of course undeniable. Yet even that web page mentions that penetration was only 12mm at muzzle. Are you certain that the Polish Army did not develop an improved AP round for the gun some time in the late 1930s? The original French AP was late 19th century design and probably some improvement (e.g. something like 30% better penetration) could have been had just by developing a more up-to-date AP or APC ammunition.

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

Of course, if we change armour, these tanks should be first modified in the Soviet OOB. However, as for BT-5, Russian Bronyekollektsya 1/1996 about BT-2/BT-5 indicates armour 13 mm at hull front, without special mention on its lower nose hull plate (which was very small and difficult to hit, BTW). A nose was well sloped indeed (apart from a driver's hatch), but is it enough to make armour 3 out of 13mm?
Sides were vertical 13mm, so it's up to choice if it is 1 or 2 in game terms. Rear hull was 10mm indeed.
Also 13mm is given for turret front and sides (not excluding rear).

As for BT-7, there is a scheme attached from Bronyekollektsya 5/1996. With reluctance, I'd agree with 3 at hull front. Sides were 15 mm, so they deserve 2 (now 1).

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

Russian Battlefield:

http://www.battlefield.ru/bt5/strani...tvo-tanka.html

Confirms that both 13mm and 15mm plate was used on BT-5, but unfortunately does not detail where. It does say that the driver's plate was 20mm thick and the upper part of the lower hull was actually 40mm. No mention about turret front being thicker, so probably that is incorrect at Jaeger Platoon site.

All in all I am still thinking Armor Value 3 for the front hull. 2.5 would probably be closer to the "truth", but since we can't have that, 3 it should be. I am also considering the fact that highly sloped armor will very often make small projectiles like ATR bullets ricochet, which increases the practical protection over the penetration path required to punch a hole through the armor. On the other hand we do know that the Lahti ATR was effective against the BT-5 even through frontal armor, but I have no data about the combat record of the Maroszek wz. 35 or the PzB 39 against the BT-5, although both were still used by the Germans in summer 1941.

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

An addition to above: I measured the glacis plate slope from images at the Russian Battlefield site and it is no less than 60 degrees (the same as BT-7 and T-34, so really no surprise there). That makes the required penetration path 26mm and so the front hull armor should definitely have Armor Value 3 in the game.

In addition, Russian Battlefield says in the BT-7 article:

Which to me, knowing that 15mm plate was used with the BT-5, suggests that it had 15mm in the turret front and sides just like BT-7.

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

You may be right, that BT-5 should have front hull 3.
As for turret: the mentioned Bronekollektsya says 13 mm, but J. Magnuski wrote in his book 15 mm. It's strange, but I can't find any other detailed Russian monographs on this tank.

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

Russian Battlefield gives:

"Наставления автобронетанковых войск РККА. Танк БТ-5", М. Отдел издательства НКО СССР - М.1935 г.
М. Павлов, И. Желтов, И. Павлов "Танки БТ", М. Экспринт 2001 г.
М. Барятинский "Советские танки в бою", М. Яуза 2006 г.

as sources. (I know, the first one isn't available to most people). There is also Mikhail Baryatinskiy's "Light Tanks" in English, which Jaeger Platoon site probably used as source for the background data and development history.

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

The first one is actually easiest to find, but I don't think that military manual of 1935 would reveal armour thickness and weak points ;)
http://www.farposst.ru/2013/10/16/ta..._sil_rkka.html

The second one may be interesting, in terms of specifications - the last one is rather general source.

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

Here's what I have on the BT-5

Sorry about the poor quality of the first image, which appears to have 13mm HF with 62deg slope, which equals 28mm

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...mages/bt-5.png

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...s/BT-5_m38.jpg

Cross

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

Interesting. That's what I was looking for. It would mean, that a small nose plate indeed was 40 mm, lower plate - 30 mm, and driver's hatch - 20 mm. It also shows 4mm longitudinal bulkheads behind 13mm side walls.

The second picture is of course a prototype BT-5IS.

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

I think only 5 of the IS were made.

Cross

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

All of that has been pretty well established already, I think. The 4mm bulkheads apparently were not made of armor grade steel, but softer structural steel (perhaps not quite 'mild' steel, but still).

The really interesting thing here is that it shows 20mm turret front armor just as Jaeger Platoon specs claimed. Perhaps I should write JTV and ask where he got them, but my guess is Baryatinskiy's "Light Tanks".

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

Armoured cars:

We should definitely create BA-6, which was much more numerous, than BA-3.
The question is, if it should replace one of BA-10s (the two differ slightly in speed only and one seems redundant), or BA-3 (according to indispensable Jaeger Platoon site, there was only one BA-3 known to be used http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARMOURED_CARS4.htm).

According to Jaeger Platoon, the Finns actually designated these cars BAF A, BAF B and BAF C respectively, so I think it's worth to rename them this way.
BAF A (BA-3) could stay for a sake of completeness, but then it should have radio x1 or x3.

The only difference in game terms between BA-6 and BA-3 would be speed: according to Russian book on medium ACs by M. Kolomiets, max speed of BA-6 on pneumatic tires was 52 km/h (=17), which is actual speed of unit 111 (BA-3 should be slightly faster - according to different figures in the Russian book, 57, 60 or even 70 km/h on road).
BA-6 on Soviet full rubber tires was slower - 42 km/h, but I don't know, if the Finns used them long (they had relatively low durability - max 1300 km)

For BA-3 there should be no radio indeed, while some 15% of Soviet BA-6 had radio.

As for BA-10 -according to the quoted book, speed was 60 or 67 with pneumatic tires.
Some 40% cars produced in 1940 had radio.

To finish with medium armoured cars:
110 Landsverk 182 - according to Jaeger Platoon, it should be used until 11/40 (now 12/39) - then there should be created second entry with 20mm gun, used until 12/41 (there is weapon 133 20mm Lahti ATR, but as an infantry weapon).
Radio of both should be x1 (only one car)

It would be good to give it an own icon (now it's common with BA) - maybe like 179 of Dutch Landsverks, but green.

Michal

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

According to other reports, lower value probably will be more correct.

By the way: I've just read, that BA-3, BA-6 and especially BA-10A (early series) had a fuel tank under a roof, behind the driver's and gunner's heads, what made them very inflammable in case of damage. Therefore, their survivability could be lowered to 2 (it was improved however in BA-10M).

Why not call them "FT-17 koiras" (male) and "FT-17 naaras" (female) if it's the way they actually called them? I'm against translating purely descriptive terms, like "early", but this is not the case.
(besides, I don't know how about native English speakers, but "female" for a tank always seemed a bit stupid to me ;)


HE Kill of M/09-31 could be actually even 9 IMO, if it fired 900 rds/min. So we need two tanks: with Hotchkiss up to mid-37 (http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/TANKS1.htm), and with M/09-31 from this date (not Jan 38).

Similarly, infantry's weapon #124 7.62mm M/33 HMG should have higher HE Kill (now: 7) - it fired up to 850 rds/min according to http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/MG1.htm


Right. And crew should be 4 (+ SMG gunner).
Most probably turret rear armour should be 2 as well (sources say, that turret front and sides had 13.6 mm, but there's no separate info concerning rear, while the turret was conical and probably identical from all sides).

We could also add temporary variant of Vickers, from 7/38 to 11/39, armed with CMG and bow SMG only.

It should be radio 1, because gun tanks were more numerous and much more valuable.

According to http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/TANKS3.htm, the Fins actually designated T-26 M31, M33 and M38 as T-26A, B and C respectively - I think it's worth to rename them this way, instead of customary year designations.

Radio 1x should stay - only command tanks had radios in 1941, but in a course of the war, more tanks with radios were surely captured. At Jaeger Platoon it says : "the grand majority of the captured T-26 tanks in Finnish use were never equipped with radios", so 10 looks OK.

Right. Name should be T-26B (OT-130 / 133).

Current radio 10 seems enough.
Armour shouldn't differ from original Vickers (remembering, that turret's rear should be 2)

An icon should have a turret on the right side and slightly more to the rear, than T-26 tanks (now it has it on the left, and the hull is the same as T-26). If the icon will be reworked someday, it should also have more pronounced rear "box", like 7TP 2654 icon.

(If we'd like to be overly precise, an icon of basic Vickers variant should also have turret on the right side - now it is central. Also, a gun is a bit too small for 37 mm and a turret should have more pronounced rear "box".
Also T-26 (OT-130) and T-26 (OT-133) had in reality a turret on the right side, just like OT-130/133.


However, I've just noticed, that in scenario editor, icons of an opponent on right side are mirrored anyway... :confused:


Unit 014 T-28, 015 T-28E - weapon #49 should be renamed L-10 gun (data are correct).
Why not call them Postijuna, as was the Finnish nickname?

T-34s could be nick-named Sotka.

I'd vote to name them just KV-1A and KV-1B, according to their Finnish official designations. There's no need IMO to add other names - if anyone is interested in buying these tanks, he should check their stats ;)



Unit 112 BA-20M, 113 FAI - maybe they should be renamed BAB B and BAB A, according to their Finnish designation? (http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARMOURED_CARS3.htm)

I've noticed it as well. In fact, ROF of MG08 is usually even quoted in lower values, than of other similar MGs (300-450 rpm) - which should be HEK no more, than 5.

Michal

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

As you probably knew, "male" and "female" descriptions were used in WW1 for British tanks to differentiate between cannon and machine gun only armed variants (respectively). That is most likely where the Finnish army got those terms as well, just translated to Finnish.

It was common for crews to give their tanks female names, by the way, even for the the ones with big guns. :D
Yes, up to. Rate of fire was 800-850 rpm, but I agree that perhaps it should be 8. I'm not sure how well the cyclic rate of fire and HE Kill values match in general; there seems to be some fluctuation depending on the OOB.

I really don't have a firm opinion on using the national designations. SP1 used them for T-26 if I remember correctly, but then again it used the German designations for all Soviet tanks as well... Postijuna and Sotka are okay as nicknames, I suppose. I also wouldn't waste too much time on fine-tuning the icons, but of course I have nothing against it if someone is willing to do it.

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

In this case, T-26A etc. are official designations, while T-26 M.1931 etc. aren't Soviet, but only conventional ones.


More minor corrections:

As for BA-6 - there is a picture 19761

17 T-34 M42 - photo is M43, correct is 23553

22 Panssar IVJ - it used MG-34 MGs, only in 1950s they were changed to DT [Jaeger Platoon].

23 StuG M40 G - it should have external DT MG with a shield, as seen on photos (I doubt, if it was AAMG)
Picture 19767 is better IMO

41 47mm M39 AT-Gun - correct picture is 23518 or standard Italian 16151 (current one has "bicycle" wheels, probably Estonian according to one description)


Michal

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

incorrect UNIT numbers aside. Where did you get 43 rounds for main gun ammo ?

http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor...p?armor_id=340 says 49 which is what the Finn version carries ( as the Russian version now does as well ) as does http://ww2db.com/vehicle_spec.php?q=156

Don

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

According to a quoted Russian book, BA-10 carried 49 rounds.

I've found a proper green icon 50 for unit 110 Landsverk 182 (I don't know if there is winter version)

-----
Artillery:

42 50mm M38 AT-Gun - better icon is bigger 56

48 40mm AA-Gun - picture is generic SP-1 gun - may be 6080 instead.
Nice icon, probably conceived for Bofors 40 mm, is 2801/2803

78 76mm K 02 FG - better icon, and different from unit 77, is 2111 (used for its Polish equivalent)

80, 81 122mm H 09 FH - better icon is 2115 (it had much shorter barrel)

82 122mm H 38 FH - icon should be twin-tail, eg. 2105
The majority captured as early, as summer 41, so probably their use should start earlier, than 6/42 (http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY5.htm )

83 114mm H/18 Bty,
87 122mm H 09 Bty,
134 122mm H 09 Bty- as indicated in Finnish Weapons thread, they should not be Off-Map Arty.

It seems from Jaeger Platoon, that the only Off-Map Arty (heavy) available for Finland before 1940, should be French 152mm H/17 (same specs, as 155mm mle17, with range 11km).
It should be added as new weapon, and replace eg. unit 87, available from 1/30 (http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY6.htm)

88 122mm H 09 Bty - name should be H 38, photo: 23180
The majority captured as early, as summer 41, so probably their use should start earlier, than 6/42

90 152mm H 09 Bty
144 152mm H 09 Bty- their weapon had range 9.5km, so it should be 200 to retain these units as off-map arty

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

Sorry about the -1 error in Unit numbers.

I got the info about rounds from Jaeger Platoon:

http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARMOURED_CARS4.htm

In any case, 49 is probably correct, although I wonder if radio-equipped vehicles carried less rounds and that's the reason for varying numbers.

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

Rather not - there's no mention in Russian sources, and BA-10 carried ammunition at the rear, while radio in front.

Continuing artillery:
- all names should be in fact in "H/37" format rather, than H 37.

- 91 152mm H 37 Bty - captured during a Continuation War, so 6/41 would be probably to early to start - maybe a month or two later.
In fact, they were used by heavy artillery battalions, so they might be classified as heavy arty

- 130 114mm H/1 FH - name should be H/18. Better icon is 2122 (short barrel)

- 131 76mm K 02 FG - better icon is 2111, proposed before for the same unit 78 (it has true narrow trail)

- 132 122mm H 09 FH -better icon is 2115, proposed before for units 80,81 (it had much shorter barrel)

- 149 76mm M27 FG - better icon is short-barrel 2109. It wasn't FG, but IG.

- 152, 158 76mm K36 FG - it should have icon with longer barrel and split trail, eg 57. I'm not sure, if class Infantry Howitzer is proper.

- 153 105mm H33 FG (leFH.18) - better icon is eg. 2105, with split trail (btw. German unit 132 should have the same icon - now it has way too long barrel). I'm not sure, if class Infantry Howitzer for this field howitzer is proper.
It might be available also as Light Off-map Bty, though we have more popular 105 H/37 with yet better performance. Date 5/44 seems OK.

- Unit 154 105mm K29 FG obviously wasn't Class 154 infantry howitzer, but a long-range canon, used from 10/40 (http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY4.htm). A single gun should be replaced with a battery, presumably of class 10? (in fact it was used in heavy arty units)

- Unit 155 155mm How Bty - it seems, that it should be class 10 Off-map arty, not Off-map Heavy arty - it's ordinary H/17 (mle 17) Schneider howitzer (its name should be changed to H/17 in a pattern of other units). According to Jaeger Platoon, it was most numerous heavy howitzer in Finland. Correct picture should be 23075 or 30290.

Heavy arty unit, with this picture, might be in fact 155mm K/17 Schneider gun (http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY4.htm), with range 17 km - but only 12 guns were used in 1942 - 6/44, so it is IMO redundant, since there were more popular Soviet 152mm ML-20 with the same performance.


- very welcome addition to off-map arty would be 120mm K/78 or K/78-31, mentioned in Finnish Weapons thread. Similar picture to K/78 is 23230. In fact, used in heavy artillery units.

- there might be added Heavy artillery 21cm H/17 - German Lange Morser unit 328. With a range 10 km, a handful of these guns were used from 4/41 http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY7.htm

Michal

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

It is true that by WW2 naming conventions type designator (H or K) should be followed by / (slash) and the year. However, towards modern times that was changed so that the slash was dropped and replaced by a space:

http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/portal...8fce00c6621582

I am not sure when this change was officially implemented, but the core of the matter is that it's a very minor point of nomenclature.

As for the "heavy/light" artillery question: By Finnish standards light guns (< 100mm) and light howitzers (< 130mm) were divisional artillery and considered "light". Heavy guns (100-155mm) and heavy howitzers (130-155) mm were typically part of independent artillery units (Finnish army did not have organic artillery at corps or army level) and considered "heavy". Anything bigger than 155mm was super-heavy (järeä in Finnish) artillery regardless of type (gun, howitzer or siege mortar).

So, 155mm howitzers should definitely be in the heavy class, but in any case the different unit classes are there just to enable making reasonable formations for the players -- like Andy said earlier, they do not have to follow historical TO&E slavishly. This also applies to the Infantry Howitzer question, although I agree that anything with a significantly more the 10 km range probably should not be in that unit class (this applies to other OOBs as well).

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

28 Medium Truck - picture is inadequate GMC CCKW. Better is eg. 20512, 22160,

33 Light Truck AOP - picture is inadequate 6x6 Dodge. Better is eg. 22161

44 75mm M40 AT-Gun - they were delivered on 23.5.43 (http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/AT_GUNS2.htm), so they probably should start since 6/43 only (now 5/43)

109, 159 T-38 - picture is T-37 (I'll attach a proposal)
I don't know what is the second entry - differing in front armour 2 and FC=1, available from the same date. I don't know about screened T-38.

138 150mm H 40 Bty- - they arrived only in 10/40 (now 1/40), so this unit, ending in 12/40, can be deleted (there is next unit 89)

By the way: what is a difference between guns and guns with "-"?... I'd understand if they differed in radio, or had additional AP ammo. :confused:
131 76mm K 02 FG- is identical as 78, only available earlier - and there is a gap between 9/40-12/40, in which K/02 sure was available as well.
The same situation is with 85 and 133: 76mm K 02 Bty, and also there's a gap

The same situation with:
- 149 and 156 76mm M27 FG (both should have suggested icon 2109)
- 152 and 158 76mm K36 FG
- 87 and 134 122mm H 09 Bty (these should be changed to something else, as off-map arty, anyway)
- 90 and 144 152mm H 09 Bty

Units 80 and 81 122mm H 09 FH differ in radio at least. Maybe all were going to differ, but it wasn't finished?

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

It's been like that since DOS. Half way through 1941 they become "rare". I searched back to 2002 and found that then 81 had HEAT ammo added 6/41 and that somewhere between 2002 and 2004 the HEAT was removed. There is a good chance the unit was left in to prevent screwing up scenarios. In any event it may be odd but not "wrong" and anyone actually PLAYING THE GAME ( instead of playing the OOB's...) would never notice


.......and I was serious when I said my plate is full. Finish up the Finns then take the rest of the year off.......... OK ?

Don

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

...the Finns, the Poles (which both are almost complete), and the Soviets, which have been already started?... (mostly simpler picture and availability issues anyway)
OK? :)

Michal

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

Rest:

04 Vickers 6s - name should be Vickers 6 ton or just Vickers, as they were commonly known (I've consulted with Jaeger Platoon's owner)

79, 86 105mm H 37 FH - picture is German 105mm leFH-18. I'm uploading a proposed photo (not very good, but it's had to find item)

154 105mm K29 FG - it should be a battery, but if we keep also a single gun, it needs twin-tail icon

259, 260 Patrol Boat - pictures are in fact Finnish torpedo boats, correct one for Finnish VMV patrol boats is 23566.
Better icon for these boats is 710.
There was also variant with 40mm Bofors AA gun (available, say, like unit 260)

261 Torpedo Boat - picture is Italian WWI MAS, correct is 23565

262 Torpedo Boat - correct picture for late Finnish boats of Italian design is 23564. They should be available from 1/43 only (now 4/42)

It's worth also to add a gunboat, armed with two 75mm guns and MGs, existing picture 23563, icon eg. 708, used from 1/30


336 Marksman - I guess he should have #1 rifle, not a sniper rile, like unit 333?

As for snipers: note, that according to Jaeger Platoon, "Finnish military had failed to introduce sniper rifle of their own in any real numbers" before the war. There were only small test parties. Only during the war the situation improved with captured material, and then own designs. (When Winter War started in 30th of November 1939 only 84 of the ordered 250 Physica scopes had been manufactured and none had been yet installed to rifles. )

364 Curtiss Hawk 75 - Finnish picture is 23575 - I'm uploading a proposed photo.


Possible additions as for tractors:
- Italian Pavesi from 1928 (http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY6.htm) (unit 422 from Italy)
- Stalinets tractor from 1/40 (343 in Soviet OOB, but it wasn't armoured)

According to http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY6.htm also McCormick TD-14 bulldozers were bought from USA during Winter War

------
I'm attaching several suggestions, including a photo of a Finnish 47mm Bohler gun (unit 040) - they had full wheel discs.

That's all as for now.

Re: Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units
 

Some additional minor corrections:

Bunker stuff:

Unit 095: no bunkers with two under-armor gun positions were available during the Winter War. In fact gun-armed bunkers were extremely rare in general, so I would give this a radio code 93 (at least until summer 1940). The 76mm gun could be replaced by a Suomi SMG (weapon 227), which was often used for close defense of bunkers.

Unit 097: as far as I know, no captured 45mm ATGs were installed in any bunkers during the Winter War. The availability of this unit should start in June 1940 concurring with the first concrete bunkers of the Salpa-line.

Unit 098: the 75mm ATG was too big to be installed in under-armor positions of the Salpa-line, so only open gun pits were prepared for it. On the other hand the bunker version of the 76mm M27 IG was used, with improved Finnish AP since 12/1942 and HEAT ammunition since July 1944. (See the Finnish Weapons thread). The guns were captured in 1941, but if you don't want to do three different versions of this bunker, the current availability of 5/1943 is quite okay.

Unit 114: coastal artillery piece, should be unit class 254. Turret side armor should be 0.

Unit 115: coastal artillery piece, should be unit class 254.

Units 304, 305, 310, & 311: there's no record of the 20mm Madsen AT guns ever being installed in concrete pillboxes. Some may have been installed in earth & log bunkers during the Continuation War. So these units should either be re-nationalized, removed or changed to earth & log bunkers with availability since April 1940 (this is speculative, but plausible use for them for what-if scenarios). Perhaps eliminate the ones with heavy concrete bunker armament (several HMGs)?

Units 308, 309, 314 & 315: no sabot (APCR) ammunition was available for the 45mm ATG.

AA (machine) gun stuff:

Unit 046: the 20mm Breda AA gun had a reasonably good reflector AA sight, so no reason to give it lower FC and RF values than other similar weapons, which usually have 2 in both. This unfortunately affects many other OOBs as well.

Unit 048: for some reason has RF value of 1; for example the British OOB has 2.

A side note: I think that AA guns with a computing predictor sight such as the 40mm Bofors, Soviet and German 37mm guns should have a higher FC (i.e. 3) than guns with a reflector sight. Currently they all seem to have FC 2. I don't know how much difference that would make in actual gameplay, though, since I haven't experimented with it. I also do not say it should be implemented for the next update.

Unit 161: should have the same image as Unit 160. The current one is a regular water-cooled single barrel Maxim M/32-33 on an AA mount. The M/40 AAMG had improved AA sights over the M/31, so FC could perhaps be raised to 2 (Then again, it did not have a reflector sight, but just a more sophisticated pivoted ring sight instead of the original fixed ring sight).

The fact that the units 160 & 161 have a wrong weapon configuration has already been discussed earlier.

Note: all Maxim M/32-33 were provided with a simple AA sight and AA extension for the tripod, so they could be used as AAMGs. However, that was rarely done because they were more badly needed in their primary role as regular HMGs. Whether a unit representing the M/32-33 in AA configuration should be added or not is up to you, but at least you already have an image for it :D