In Contact determination
 

Is the determination if a unit is "in contact" just a die roll or do other factors effect it?

Is there any way to have a better chance of keeping on board artillery units "in contact"

I seem to have mortar units lose contact if they move or if the HQ unit moves too far away but I don't know if these are correlated.

Re: In Contact determination
 

Do both sides have radios?

is HQ close by (like 3-5 hexes). If not there is a small random chance, even if the non-radio units were 10 KM off. gives a chance for someone a long way away to "get sorted out". Those who like to whine and moan about such things can assume that runners or dispatch riders or MPs got to them. (it was probably put in so that the AI had a chance with elements that had run away a long distance. Humans can pick up "perma-pinned" damaged units with a truck or H/T, AI is too stupid for that).

Is your own company HQ nearby? - your company commander can provide contact, as well as rallying. As can A0 as Bn commander, if close by.

Skilled units, suppression levels. Lots of things determine contact, as well as many random rolls in the various routines.

Off map units go off the net more if the BN HQ is dead or fled, or suppressed. Do not get A0 into combat - this is not SP1 where you only had ~24 core units so making the commander go all Rambo was worth it. A0 (provided you leave him as the default HQ class) is a second class observer - use him as such. In addition he is the "back link" for rear area comms as I just mentioned.

So if you want an HQ to be generally in contact, keep its subordinates close by (within 3 hexes, 5 at a push). You may want to organise your on-map artillery park as a company and keep it tight-packed with the coy commander in the pack as well, maybe put A0 there too. But then again, that would be a juicy counter-battery target...

Re: In Contact determination
 

Tends to be more of an issue with mortars assigned to a company by the OOB from my experience as commander gets distant from it.
Larger battles I tend to buy an artillery park commander, buy a company delete everyone but the commander and assign your arty to him because he stays back with them. Some OOBs have arty company lead by a FOO that works if he's your second and is not going to go forward to try and get eyes on.

Re: In Contact determination
 

Good to know.

I have been keeping my A0 close to the front to rally troops. I guess if he has a radio he can do it from the rear and shorten the smoke breaks of the artillery crews.

Re: In Contact determination
 

A0 always has a radio.

If he is up front, he risks getting hit with a bombardment. If you have changed him to another unit type like a tank, then enemy planes may decide he is a lovely target to strafe. Losing A0 (except in the human v. human campaign) loses the campaign if you are playing one.

He is not there to be risked, at best he should maybe sit up on a hill, with no friends nearby (like AAA, SAM, arty etc) that may draw enemy attention. On the hill, he can act as an arty observer if visibility is good.

He could be shifted in a jeep and plonked down in the far rear of a mass rout, where he may rally a few runners that pass him by, provided the enemy is not actively shelling the herd of routers.

Re: In Contact determination
 

It's from the MBT forum but could be helpful.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=51883

Re: In Contact determination
 

Interesting. Now I don't know if it is better to keep the A0 near the front to assist with rallying troops or to keep him "in the rear with the gear" to keep the artillery fire coming.

In campaigns I have kept the A0 near the front and used it to finish off weakened units to assist with quickly raising its experience and thus its arty and rally ratings.

Re: In Contact determination
 

In the early battles, it may be worthwhile to keep an APC by the A0 (and artillery observer(s)) and when the enemy is in a routed panic at the end, bring them forward to deal with a few running crews etc. to pick up the first 5 kills that help most in experience gain.

But there is a risk that they may run onto a hold-out AAA battery, or some reinforcement unit pops onto the map in front of them. My A0 stays in the rear with the gear. I probably had a bad experience running him forward many years ago, and ending up under a concentration of arty the AI brought in...

You pays your money and takes your choices - its up to you.

Re: In Contact determination
 

In all my campaigns I always keep my A0 in the rest and out of harms way, till near the end to try to rack up some kills, if safe.

Re: In Contact determination
 

I like to consider my A0 unit as not a physical unit at all! but rather a personification of the communications link to higher command.


Hide with pride! Will usually be assigned a jeep or such to scurry away from artillery strikes or provide an extra level of rally to some beleaguered troops.

Re: In Contact determination
 

I guess the next logical question is if it is better for your B0 to be a forward observer or if B0 should be a combat unit,

Does it make a difference what formation the Forward observer is attached too or is it his arty skill level that determines how quickly he can call in fire?

Also, is there any benefit to having more that one HQ type unit?

Scorpio: I love "Hide with pride" :D

Re: In Contact determination
 

My understanding is you cannot have more than 1 HQ-type unit.

and yes it is skill levels of observer that determines how long call takes. I don't believe it matters to which formation he is attached (I usually have observer independent and at B0 as easier to find)

Re: In Contact determination
 

If you buy an FOO as the first thing, then as B0 its the easiest thing to find it on the HQ lists as it is right in your face under A0. So I always buy my observer as item No. 1. So no paging through lists of stuff to find that observer that you tacked onto some company or other.

Arty skill and experience is what an FOO needs for fast calling. Experience comes from surviving battles and any kills he personally makes - arty experience from calling fires. Don't bother attaching an FOO unit to anything. Just buy one as B0 and let him do his thing.

Re: In Contact determination
 

1 HQ unit keep him out of the way at the back on rough or similar, possibly with a decent LOS. Watch a flank from a distance to protect your arty park is my ideal location.

2 Order you buy company/units makes no difference HQ is never replaced.
FOOs as second unit or last makes finding them easy.

3 If really want could avoid buying Company's with a weak second unit like a MG mortar rather than a squad. As I understand it these get promoted if company commander dies.


4 Some people seem to go in depth with this but in fact its quite simple.

To maintain good morale and rally status the order for keeping units out of trouble and unsuppressed is straightforward.
1) HQ - rally any unit
2) Company Commander - rally any unit in company.
3) Squad / section leader - rally any unit in that squad/ section.
4) Every body else just rally themselves so they are the ones that should take most of the fire as there are 3 people above them that can help rally them.
1+2 should stay out of trouble and 3 should do its best to do so.

Re: In Contact determination
 

Runners.
Might as well be birds, or some superstitious telepathic signals.
Yes, I tested it numerous times, even with a unit isolated with waters, no radios, no LOS toward friendlies, and surrounded by the enemy. 7 chance out of 10 it was still in contact with parent, and 100% chance in contact if it's an x0 unit (Platoon leader etc).

I get it Andy you're getting bored and lazy fixing up the codes, especially something not as game breaking as this one.

But please don't justify it as a "game feature", runners my ***.

Re: In Contact determination
 

I think the concept of "runners" described here is simply to visualize how the CHQ link works without radio contact. On page 31 of the SP1 manual (http://jlvignaud.free.fr/sp/sp1/sp.pdf) and on page 37 of the SP2 manual (https://dl.myabandonware.com/f/ln4/S...ual_DOS_EN.pdf) it says, Now what this would mean is that if you are using the full reality setting with the Command button set to On in your Preferences (which I personally set to off, but that's just how I like to play) is that without a radio your contact status at more than 5 hexes from a command unit is largely dependent upon terrain and whatever the visibility setting is for the particular battle you are playing at the time. Also, never forget that on top of that is simply a roll of the dice by the program itself. Think of it as rolling a D20 and even through it all your particular unit somehow managed to maintain some kind of contact whereas another unit just rolled a 1 on the same D20 and is now royally ****ed in that respect. So with that in mind you can call it whatever you like, runners, smoke signals, telepathy, etc. but the fact of the matter is that it's not game breaking and has been this way since the original game came out.

Re: In Contact determination
 

I hate to say it, but the A0 unit can only rally some units on the map, not all (unless you are not using any companies, in which case then I would agree that the A0 could then rally any unit on the map). The way I understand it is that any given unit will not receive more than 3 opportunities to rally in the command chain provided all the command units are within 5 hexes of the unit to be rallied. So with the command structure below...

A0

B0 (company commander)
B1
B2
B3

C0 (platoon leader under the command of B0)
C1
C2
C3

D0 (platoon leader independent of B0 and directly under command of A0)
D1
D2
D3

then if B3 was to be rallied it could be rallied by itself, B0, or A0. However, if C3 was to be rallied then it would be rallied by itself, C0, or B0, but not the A0 unit. Also, if D3 was to be rallied then it would be rallied by itself, D0, or A0 since it falls directly under the A0's command.

Re: In Contact determination
 

The only changes I could see that could possibly be made would be to completely remove the "dice roll" from being in contact. Make sure the program gives a radio to at least ALL x0 units (NO randomness/NO exceptions), and make sure that if any unit has a radio then it is ALWAYS in contact with their next higher x0 unit. If any other unit (not an x0 unit) does not have a radio (and their chances of receiving a radio would still be subject to the same "dice roll" as it is now) then contact with their higher x0 unit would be strictly based on whether they are more than 5 hexes away and LOS was maintained, NO randomness factor (More than 5 hexes away with LOS, contact is maintained. More than 5 hexes away and no LOS, then no contact. 5 or less hexes and no LOS, then no contact. 5 or less hexes with LOS, then contact is maintained. Basically it boils down to "No LOS, no contact"). I of course don't know what all this work would entail though. As for rallying units with the A0 unit, the code could possibly be changed to allow the A0 unit to rally ALL units, not just the ones directly under it's command. Once again, not sure what kind of work that would entail.

Re: In Contact determination
 

Okay that's wrong maybe this is why people get so involved with it lets put it another way.

1) HQ can rally any unit on the map regardless of who it is attached to.
2) Company Commander can rally anyone attached to its company.
3) Squad/Unit Commander can rally anyone in its squad/unit.
4) Every other unit (not a 0) can only rally its self.


So Your example
DO can rally anyone in D
CO can rally anyone in C
BO can rally anyone in B plus anyone in C and D as he is company commander.
AO can rally everyone.

B is the worst platoon because it has no separate company commander so he has to do double duty looking after his squad and the company. Only A0 and BO can help them where as C and D can be helped by AO, BO and there respective commander.

Simple once you get it and why you should cross attach extras like ATGM teams to get the extra rally from the company commander.

Therefore doing something dangerous like clearing mines.
Company commander should stay back in an attempt to avoid expected artillery.
4 Squad platoon I would keep that commander back to, 3 its tricky depends on circumstance.
Company and squad commander are now hopefully in good order so do not need to rally themselves which they do first so can help the grunts who as I said should take most of the heat.
Applies most cases taking a fortification for example Platoon commander could rally a squad from pinned status letting it move adjacent if its stayed out of trouble. Rally the squad then if need be draw the last fire with the Platoon leader as an example.

Re: In Contact determination
 

Please try and rally unit C0 in my saved game here and you will see that I'm right in what I have been saying, the A0 unit cannot rally EVERY unit on the map, only the ones in units DIRECTLY under it's command as listed in it's command structure in the HQ screen.

Re: In Contact determination
 

A0 rallies everyone in contact with him in the A company as if a company commander.

A0 can rally any subordinate company commander if in contact.

A0 can rally subordinates of one of those companies, if he is within shouting distance (3-5 hexes or so). So if he wants to rally a routing herd, he has to get in amongst them. And then he might manage 1 or 2 rallies before failing one and his rally goes to 0 for the rest of the turn.

No magic to it really. And not worth agonising over. If he is close enough, he can do it sometimes - but its not 100% reliable.

Re: In Contact determination
 

Worked perfectly he rallied himself to 2 suppressed then failed and A0 rallied him to zero.

To be clear in this save formations F,G,H are not assigned to any company so default to A0 only.
I have all preferences on except tank heavy.
Before starting you could have cross attached them to B0s company so B0 could help rally them also.

Pretty sure I attached the scouts when I played this one.

Re: In Contact determination
 

Actually I cant have attached the scouts as its a scenario but I wanted to and would if it was a battle.

Re: In Contact determination
 

Well on my computer if C0 can't rally itself down to 1 and B0 fails to rally C0 down to 1 then on their unit screens the Rally stat shows 0, which is as it should be. However, A0 will show no change on it's own Rally stat as it will not even ATTEMPT to rally C0, even if B0 and A0 are stacked in the exact same hex as C0. This behavior has been this way since I first began playing this game (at least 9 years I'd say), and I am not the only one who experiences this (see this thread with a couple posts by RightDeve http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=51883). I stand by what I see and I know I'm not delusional. It is this way on WW2 and also MBT.

Re: In Contact determination
 

Three additional saves are attached to this message. In each one there is a C0 unit with the A0 unit close by. In each instance, if the C0 unit fails to rally itself to 1 suppression it will not get rallied by the A0 unit for the reasons I've already stated in my previous posts. In each case there is no company commander within 5 hexes to provide an additional rally to the C0 unit, thereby ruling out any confusion as to what unit would provide a rally attempt to each C0 unit, the A0 unit is the only other x0 unit within the 5 hex range of the C0 units.

Re: In Contact determination
 

It looks like the "A0 rallies everyone if close by" thing is another of these SP "folklore" items that have been "accepted" by all (including me!:D) since the year dot. probably from something stated on some old usenet forum or suchlike in the 90s...

looking at the actual rally code - A0 will only rally his subordinates, i.e. anyone attached to his A company (which includes company commanders for B, C etc as well as random platoons not individually attached to B,C etc coy). He is just another company commander.

So any rally that I or others may have seen with A0 will have been company command elements, or unattached platoon commanders or subunits of such platoons.

No big deal really, just another reason to keep A0 in the proper place - somewhere on the back line and away from all combat.

I may include a new test to see if A0 is nearby to give units a wee boost to their rally chance though.

Re: In Contact determination
 

I recently had had a case where a mortar unit was in the same hex as my A0 but was out of contact. Neither unit was suppressed.

I'm thinking there is a die roll involved here.

Re: In Contact determination
 

Of course there are many random numbers in several subroutines involved.

There is no "be within 3 hexes and you are automagically connected" rule - 50 metres is half a football field, perfectly normal that one bunch of 4-5 guys may not be talking to another little group that far away. In reality (not from the player-as-God point of view), neither may even know of the other's presence.

Re: In Contact determination
 

As a former supervisor I can confirm that this is true. :)

Re: In Contact determination
 

Will this stay the same as it has been for the next update?