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-   -   Concerning CHQ Link (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=51883)

RightDeve April 3rd, 2018 12:20 PM

Concerning CHQ Link
1 Attachment(s)
I recently tested the CHQ link between units.
I'm wondering if these are intentional game mechanics, or actually problems?

1). All Platoon HQs and Company HQs will never get "Out of Contact" status. They're always "In Contact" (not even once "Radio Contact"). This is true even if their radios are removed, and they're placed alone so far away from other units. Ditto A0, but I can assume it's because he has no higher HQ thus being always "In Contact" is not really a problem for A0.

2). The grunts (non HQ units): when their radios are removed, and they're placed alone (a single squad) so distant from other units, more often than not they'll have "In Contact" status, although "Out of Contact" also happens often for such unit. I'm wondering how can a squad be "In Contact" if they're so far away isolated without radios.

3). All units (either grunts or HQs) even if they have radios, are never rallied by their superiors, unless their superior happens to be near (5 hex or so). They can only rally themselves. This renders the "Radio Contact" status actually useless, as the Game Guide says that units with radios can be rallied by their superiors using radio contact (thus implying far-away units).


All points above (1, 2, 3) are tested using Scenario slots 996, 997, and 998 respectively in this attached Zip file. SPMBT game.
In each Scenario, you'll find 6 units being tested: 3 infantry squads, and 3 tank units. You can find them far deployed and isolated (easier to find using the new minimap feature that shows friendlies/foes dots).
When testing point no. 3 above (Scenario 998), I have provided some tanks near them to give Z fire thus suppressing the tested units, and see if the faraway superiors can rally them.
I have tested for at least 10 turns for each point above.

PS: I have tested previously using wooded & hilly terrains to see if there's any difference. Same thing. For clarity's purpose these test scenarios are using completely flat clear terrain.

Mobhack April 3rd, 2018 12:41 PM

Re: Concerning CHQ Link
Even if you have no radio - runners or dispatch riders are assumed to keep you in touch from time to time.

Rallying requires contact - and radios do allow rally at long ranges.

Platoons and companies get radios automatically in SP series games. And I have seen platoon and company HQs out of contact with higher HQ.

Main effect of out of contact is in rallying. You can still move things around - they dont "freeze" without contact like e.g. some tabletop rules.
If in contact they can be rallied by a superior, and in SP the superior HQ tends to be called on to rally first, then the junior HQ if present. that can leave superiors unable to rally themselves if you dont watch out.

About the only out of contact situation that really has much game effect is when batteries drop off the command net, so cannot be called for fire or have fire cancelled or adjusted.

In SP games, C&C is not really much of an effect. SP3 had an orders and objectives system, which was optional and it appeared that most end users did not utilise it.

Felix Nephthys April 5th, 2018 09:31 PM

Re: Concerning CHQ Link
I had a couple posts about this stuff awhile back that might help.


Originally Posted by Felix Nephthys (Post 833134)
I know this is an old topic but I thought I could clarify some things as it pertains to rallying and being in/out of contact. I can illustrate this using the WINSPMBT scenario 41- Viet Village as an example (I know it's not WINSPWW2 but the subject pertains to both games). In that scenario the command structure is as follows.

A0- Battalion Commander

B0- Company Commander (commanded by A0)

C0- Platoon Commander (commanded by B0)

D0- Platoon Commander (commanded by B0)

E0- Platoon Commander (commanded by B0)

Attachment 14122

Attachment 14123

Now say units B0, B1, E0, E1, and A0 advance on the enemy. Units B1 and E1 come under fire and are suppressed. (see pic below)

Attachment 14124
Note that unit A0 is just to the right of unit B0.

Now if we wish to rally unit E1 then note that units E0, B0, and A0 are well within range. The only units to be able to give an extra rally attempt to unit E1 would be his platoon commander, unit E0, and his company commander, unit B0. Unit A0 will not be able to provide an extra rally attempt to unit E1, nor would unit A0 be able to provide a rally attempt to any Cx, Dx, or any other Ex units.

If we wanted to rally unit B1 however, we find that the units able to give an extra rally attempt are units B0 and A0. Why can unit A0 provide a rally attempt to a Bx unit and not any of the other units? Well refer back to the pic of the HQ Menu.

Attachment 14122

We see that the Battalion Commander's commands are listed as B - Rifle Co VN. Now, see how this differs from the Company Commander in the pic below.

Attachment 14123

His commands are listed as C - Rifle Plt VN, D - Rifle Plt VN, and E - Rifle Plt VN. The long and short of this is that if a unit is not listed in the list of commands for a company commander or battalion commander then they can not provide a rally to said unit. Hence the fact that unit A0 could not provide a rally to unit E1 while they could provide one to unit B1 if they so desired.

Now, as far as being in contact to provide a rally attempt, it doesn't matter if the units involved have radios or not since the unit providing the rally must always be within 5 hexes of the unit they're trying to rally. The only thing radios are really good for, assuming you are using the full realism settings, is to call for support from an x0 unit and remain in contact with your higher commander at more than 5 or so hexes. Basically, if you are out of contact and you are an x0 unit then you will not be able to call for support fire and you will suffer some suppression. Any other unit out of contact will only suffer some suppression, that's basically it.

Hope all that can help any other players, new and old.


Originally Posted by Felix Nephthys (Post 833169)
I myself have found that as far as rallying is concerned, regardless of whether or not a unit has a radio or whether it is or isn't within LOS of the unit to be rallied, a unit can only give a rally to another unit within 5 hexes or less. Any more than 5 hexes and it won't happen.


Originally Posted by Felix Nephthys (Post 834727)

Originally Posted by FlDirtbag (Post 834706)
Is there any reason why a platoon commander (w/ rally points available) would not help rally a subordinate who is in contact? Is there an additional "roll" that I'm unaware of? I feel like I'm missing something.
I know this is an old post, but hopefully you can help me out. Thanks in advance,

The only reasons I can think of as to why a platoon commander with rally points available would not rally a subordinate are that he is either retreating or routed and/or more than 5 hexes away.

I hope that helps.

RightDeve April 6th, 2018 02:17 AM

Re: Concerning CHQ Link
Thank you Felix!

It confirms my suspicion (and further testing toward the final turn 37) that no superior HQs could rally any subordinates unless they're near the subordinates.

I could live with my points 1 and 2 above as per Andy's explanations (although I'd like "out-of-contact" to be more often for isolated faraway units).

Regarding my point no 3, I'm ambivalent about this.
Placing HQ units near his subordinates and rallying them sure is realistic, as it's quite rare in real life that "rallying" happens only through "voice". Usually rally involves being there physically.
But on the other hand, as also the Game Guide says that units equipped with Radios can be rallied far away, there's also some instances in real life that "light" rallying can be done via voice only. The good thing on the other hand, "out-of-contact" status incurs suppression points for the subordinates, so even if they can't be rallied from afar, at least just being in "Radio/In Contact" already gives them a benefit.


PS: Thank you for the explanation about command-structure that allows & restricts rallying. I remember reading the GG states that A0 could rally anyone (friendlies) on the battlefield. I guess the GG is not infallible after all.

"Consider the same for the battle Group HQ unit as well as he can rally anyone else, or provide skill rating boosts to anyone else."

Mobhack April 6th, 2018 11:11 AM

Re: Concerning CHQ Link
A0 can rally anyone - if he is close by. CHQ can rally subordinates if close by as well. Subordinates of his own company that is, not another company's troops.

A0 of course is the commander for any loose platoons in the "A company" that all such platoons not cross attached to a specific line company form. So rallying some scout car platoon you bought in support may result in A0 using his rally opportunities.

The drawback of bringing A0 close enough to rally subordinate troops of some line company is that he may get caught in the fighting or a barrage on them etc, and suffer from that. Losing A0 loses an ongoing (non PBEM) campaign, so its a desperation move to bring him up to the point of contact. However, if he is well back then he could provide rally to fleeing troops that have run a long way from the battle.

NB - HQs provide rally opportunities not only in the human initiated "direct" rallying, but also in the end of turn rally the code does in the end of turn morale test.

Also - not exactly morale - but the code has always allowed a chance of a nearby (3-5 hexes) higher HQ to "coach" a subordinate that is firing by using its higher skill level as the one used in the fire calculations. Probably not a high enough chance to really be noticeable, but platoons held tightly together in a clump will do a little better than those shotgunned all over the map, both morale wise and shooting wise.

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