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-   -   Transformation questions (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=41411)

Illuminated One November 27th, 2008 12:35 PM

Transformation questions
 
Ok, so I'm playing around with transformation.

You can change only to normal animals with it, right?
So changing into say a dragon is impossible?

If you get one of the smaller animals like a dragonfly is your mind always damaged? And can that damage be healed or is it just that the brain is to small to contain a human mind?

Nikelaos November 27th, 2008 12:52 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminated One (Post 655965)
Ok, so I'm playing around with transformation.

You can change only to normal animals with it, right?
So changing into say a dragon is impossible?

If you get one of the smaller animals like a dragonfly is your mind always damaged? And can that damage be healed or is it just that the brain is to small to contain a human mind?

IIRC you can change into any unit with an animal tag, dragons don't have this tag but i have once been turned into a fire drake which is sorta close if mighty lesser.

occaisionally you're caster may turn into a foul spawn and becom feeble minded, this affliction can be healed like any other.

Endoperez November 27th, 2008 02:14 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
I think it's just a list of several many animal forms, not all beings with an animal tag. You won't get monkey forms, as an example (except Winged Monkey).

Trumanator November 27th, 2008 02:27 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
The greater question as far as I'm concerned is is it worth it?

Tyrant November 27th, 2008 02:42 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
Some of the mythological foul-spawn types are on the list for sure- i remember Chimeras, and i think Coakatrice as well. You can heal the feeble mind affliction if that happens, but it's difficult.

Is it worth it? Not in a general sense, but perhaps situationally. It's what i call a "toolkit spell." MA Man, for instance, might want to roll the dice on a few Crones to try to get some mages that have more hit point or a faster move rate. I've also heard people talk about using it on an immobile pretender chassis.

Gandalf Parker November 27th, 2008 02:45 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
Ive found some of the changes to be very useful.
Particularly when I change the Naiads who cannot leave their home province.

Changing a weak mage into a better armored unit that can lead more troops and still does the same magic is rarely a waste as far as I am concerned.

Illuminated One November 27th, 2008 03:12 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
Yeah, that was a bit along my thinking. If you have strong but vulnerable mages and the enemy has fliers why not have a mage in bear form?
And although it's probably a waste of gems I have the mad idea to make the most frightening dragonfly ever. :D

What does the winged monkey you get have?
Is it the same as in the spell winged monkeys?

Dectilon November 27th, 2008 03:57 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
Also, some underwater mages that get their magic nerfed when ashore regains their full power when transformed. The only problem is if you're using boosters other than rings and the like : /

Endoperez November 27th, 2008 04:14 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminated One (Post 655992)
What does the winged monkey you get have?
Is it the same as in the spell winged monkeys?

Yes. It has full or almost full stats IIRC, so it's one of the better results. It's small and very weak, though.

Nikelaos November 27th, 2008 04:32 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
IIRC it also gives you a 'young' version of the animal so nature mages with old age could make good use of it. You could perhaps use it as a way to avoid upkeep costs aswell though it is costy on the gems.

Gregstrom November 27th, 2008 04:37 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
IIRC the possible results of transformation depend on the terrain you cast the spell in. I think Wastes are one of the better options for casting the spell.

thejeff November 27th, 2008 11:15 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
It's really nice for TreeLords, as for the immobile pretenders.
Mobility and I think you may be able to summon the TreeLord again?

Tifone November 28th, 2008 08:15 AM

Re: Transformation questions
 
Is there the chance to have your mage become something really tough?

Illuminated One November 28th, 2008 09:04 AM

Re: Transformation questions
 
I think not.
You can get a bit better stats out of it but not enough to place the mage at the frontline. And you loose all slots except two misc slots, so you are very limited when building something out of it.

However I think this spell is rather good for human mages:
If you have no intention or not the capability to really equip your mages it is a nice alternative to giving them shields or armor and some animal forms are probably an even better defense when someone casts earthquake or similar spells - additionally the enemy will not get hold of items when you loose.

Another point is that you most of the time get very good movement. Forrest Survival, Mountain Survival, sometimes even Flying or Stealth. Now your mapmove 1 mages can keep up with your armies, are upkeep-free, and not as easy to take down. I think that's really worth 3 nature gems.

Endoperez November 28th, 2008 09:07 AM

Re: Transformation questions
 
You may get something big, and/or something with 30+ hp, but most tough forms lack slots. Bears, Great Eagles and similar are about as tough as they come, apart from some big monsters from Crossbreeding.

Gandalf Parker November 28th, 2008 12:44 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
Its useful in getting something tougher, more mobile, more leadership..
but not something REALLY tough.

Tifone November 28th, 2008 01:29 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
Yeah, I was thinking bout something on the line of the Diablo druids (becoming those mighty bears) but i feared this was not the case :o

cleveland November 28th, 2008 02:35 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
But remember, your animal will have N magic (at least)

An animal with a Lucky Pendant & (Barkskin)(Personal Regeneration)(Elemental Fortitude)(attack)(Poison Touch)Attack Closest will definitely be tougher than whatever feeble old mage you used to have. :)

Tifone November 29th, 2008 07:05 AM

Re: Transformation questions
 
Yeah, but it will be 5 astral pearls for the pendant, +8 nature gems for the transformation, +1 or 2 N gems x combat (I'd say) not to fatigue too much for those buffs, + the 20% risk of having an "at least" N3 mage feebleminded or dead and the risk of having him become something of little worth... :(

Your idea is nice :) but seem expensive and risky for the result... Being Alt 7, this spell seems a bit underpowered to me...

PS: is there a chance of becoming a Mammoth? ;)

Gandalf Parker November 29th, 2008 12:43 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
Probably too expensive for MP. Especially on smaller maps.
But not too expesive for some fun role playing in a solo game. :)

Tifone November 29th, 2008 03:31 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
Yep, but the risk is still very high. Why 20% btw? I understand the trouble of playing with Astral and Blood powers (horror marks, curses), after all you disturb immensely superior powers... but Nature? Trying to become a -normal- animal after 7 levels of research in alteration of the bodies, kills or feebleminds 1 out of 5 expert nature mages? That's a thing RPGs' druids do all the day... :p

cleveland November 29th, 2008 04:04 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
From an earlier discussion on transformation. I'd taken turmoil/death/cold, so my income was crap. Once I'd finished most of the research, I used it extensively:

Quote:

Originally Posted by cleveland (Post 619501)
In CBM it's only 3N, and at that price, I found it extremely cost effective for my LA Pangaea Pans & Panic Apostates (330 & 320 gold, respectively; neither are sacred).

The spell turned 22 gold/turn units into 0 gold/turn animals. The major drawbacks are the chance of feeblemind (I guesstimate that's around 10-15%) and the loss of slots (most of the animals only have misc slots). However, I did once get a flying, fire-breathing chimera that could self-cast Invulnerability & Personal Regeneration; another time, I got a Winged Monkey with full slots. More typically, you get various animals with interesting abilities (like mountain-survival cave drakes, flying wyverns, or stealthy moose).

Plus, when your unit becomes feebleminded, it always transforms into a Foul Spawn of some variety, which can be not-so-terrible...

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/3719/foulslk8.th.jpg

Besides, what could be more fantastic than cutting off your opponent's only path of retreat with a sneaky, rampaging moose? :)

Tifone November 29th, 2008 04:22 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
Lol, nice analysis :)

Manual states the chance of things going wrong is 20%. While becoming a b4d4ss foulspawn like that is funny, death is surely not :(

Illuminated One November 29th, 2008 04:46 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
Death happens only very rarely.
Becoming feebleminded isn't that bad if you can heal which shouldn't be too big a problem for a nature power.

Zeldor November 29th, 2008 08:02 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
I think it should cost 2-5 gems so it would be worth the risk for N mages.

Tifone November 29th, 2008 08:07 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
In CBM it is already repriced :)

militarist June 15th, 2010 12:48 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
Tried transformation on immobile pretender (FoB) as was mentiined by someone, no transformation happened, though gems on spellcasting were spent. Tried several times So this idea probably doesn't work with pretenders.

Stavis_L June 15th, 2010 01:11 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by militarist (Post 748925)
Tried transformation on immobile pretender (FoB) as was mentiined by someone, no transformation happened, though gems on spellcasting were spent. Tried several times So this idea probably doesn't work with pretenders.

No idea whether it excludes pretenders, but it excludes lifeless/undead as valid targets (so you can't e.g. use it on a Tartarian with N paths to avoid them smashing your temple.) The Fountain of Blood is lifeless.

militarist June 15th, 2010 01:48 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
I think fountains/statue are the only type of pretenders that would worth to transform if it was possible on the stage of the game when it can be cast.

chrispedersen June 15th, 2010 06:37 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
Its my impression that pretenders are immune. But its also my impression that if they become a troll, it then works.

way to many hours playing this game.

Apsophos June 16th, 2010 08:57 AM

Re: Transformation questions
 
First time I ever try Transformation, my treelord becomes a humanoid foulspawn. Now I've got a treelord wielding a treelord staff, great, what use is there for a N8 mage on the battlefield?

rdonj June 16th, 2010 09:31 AM

Re: Transformation questions
 
Well, you could get a pretty epic storm of thorns going....

Tryfan November 22nd, 2010 11:43 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
If you have a thistle mace equipped, what happens to it after transforming to animal (or dying)? Lost? Back to lab?

WingedDog November 23rd, 2010 12:08 AM

Re: Transformation questions
 
Dying - lost, animal - back to lab.

August May 24th, 2013 08:05 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
I feel like this could be used by some nations without a ton of astral pearls incoming for a lategame, or midgame gambit, round of wishing for the apocalypse. Especially doable and useful for Pangea with their expensive, non sacred mages and likely glut of nature gems.

August May 24th, 2013 08:22 PM

Re: Transformation questions
 
*for surviving a a round of wishing for armageddon

Due to the lack of upkeep cost

Also works well for some death nations using twiceborn, if somewhat more expensively and complicatedly.

Soyweiser May 28th, 2013 09:33 AM

Re: Transformation questions
 
http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Transformation contains what we know about the spell. It is a fun spell imho, sadly it doesn't ahve that much utility due to the high chance of death/feeblemind.


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