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Warnevada October 3rd, 2015 05:40 PM

Polish OOB
1 Attachment(s)
The Infantry category:

1) There are two entries for DMntd Cav Pl. The first entry is actually a company.

2) There are two entries for Cavalry Platoon. The second entry is actually a company.

DRG October 3rd, 2015 07:43 PM

Re: Polish OOB
Now corrected. Good catch


SaS TrooP October 4th, 2015 09:25 AM

Re: Polish OOB
Is this a good thread to suggest some changes to the OOB as well?

DRG October 4th, 2015 12:33 PM

Re: Polish OOB

SaS TrooP October 4th, 2015 01:49 PM

Re: Polish OOB
So, there is a thing generally about Polish infantry up to September 1939.
DRG, please read it carefully and check for yourself.

How does it currently look like?

There is a platoon made of 3 squads, each having 19 men.
Is it correct? Yes, it is.

Yet, there are 2 arguments going against such solution.

Argument 1: Gameplay

Currently those 19 men squads dispose 2 weapon slots, one taken by the rifle and one taken by the BAR. Such firepower however does not represent the actual cluster of troops in such a squad. You have 19 men firing their rifles with just the same efficiency as eg. Slovakian rifle squad of that era.
Yes, let us take a look on Slovakian military of 1939.

What do we have there?
Rifle Company - historically accurate - is made of 3 platoons, each having 4 squads with 10 men. This means we have 12 rifle squads that "carry the fight". each is equipped with a rifle and ZB26.
If you sum up the firepower, you have roughly 12 rifle tests going and 12 LMG tests going, assuming each rifle squad fires a salvo.
120 men = 12 rifle tests, 12 LMG tests.

Meanwhile, Polish have 3 squads with 19 men each. 157 men makes company's "bring it to the enemy" force. If you however sum it up, it ends with:
157 men = 9 rifle tests, 9 LMG tests (as company has 9 squads total)

Thus, not only firepower of nearly 40 men more than in Slovakian company is omitted, but actual squad efficiency is nowhere "noted". Like, we ignore the fact Polish squad has 9 men more.

But yes, I know, this is game limitation here. In some cases USMC infantry has similar problem. I would name that 13 men squad as maximum, above which game in portraying firepower ineffectively.

Same applies to casualties. Big squads have tendency to take lots of casualties at once. It is common - when playing Polish - to get 3-4 men as casualties from a single salvo. I do not thing my grandfathers were that eager to die.
So, to sum it up, in firefight between Slovakian platoon and Polish platoon, which has 130% of Slovakian firepower strength, Slovakia gets more tests (4/4 vs. 3/3) with omittion of Polish numbers, is more accurate (big squads are easier to hit) and scores way more effective hits (Slovakia usually losses 1-2 men, Polish 1-4 men).

Tests above work with literally every other nation. Took Slovakia as an example.
But OK. At this point someone may simply say "game portrays squad, so we have a squad".

Here comes argument 2: There ARE already exceptions in SPWW2!

First, quick note how Polish squad was organized. I am speaking out of my head, but if you only like I can bring you lots of sources. They vary on details only.

19 men was pretty much correct. We used to divide that squad into 3 elements: command element with squad leader, couple of riflemen (and dedicated messenger who was in every squad). That element often carried a 46mm mortar "JarzÄ…bek" (it is a different discussion if "GL Section" should be dispersed among normal squads). Then, there was a covering element, consisting of BAR gunner, his commander and ammo bearers. And then, there was maneuver element made of riflemen only.
As of numbers, here I do not remember for sure, but it should be: 5-6 men in command element, 4 men in covering element, 10 men in maneuver element. I will get you details on this.

Practically however, command element and covering element were often merged together as they operated closely with each other. Maneuver element was so strong because they often operated alone for long time, squad could have been split for hours. It was normal in Polish doctrine at that time.

OK, here there may be another question: "Why should we care".

Developers, please take a look at Italians.
Italian rifle company: 3 platoons, each with 4 "squads". 2 squads carry only Carcano rifles, the other 2 squads: Breda LMGs. Two of them, usually.

Lets take a look, for instance, here:

Italian Infantry battalion, OK, quoting from the bottom of the page:

"The Italian Rifle Platoon used a unique internal organisation.

It was divided into two large Squads, each of twenty men, which were further split into Rifle and Light Machine Gun groups. The Squad was commanded by a Sergeant or Major Sergeant, who controlled the LMG Group. This was made up of two detachments, each of a Corporal gunner, an assistant gunner and two ammunition bearers. Each detachment served a Breda Modello 30 light machine gun. The balance of the Squad was found in the Rifle Group of eleven men, which included a Corporal Major and Corporal.

The manual indicates that the two Groups were to operate as distinct elements, with the two LMGs supporting the Rifle Group onto its objective. At the time, most other armies embedded a light machine gun with each Section/Squad, themselves roughly half the size of the Italian Squad, which by comparison seems an unwieldy organisation. Individual weapons are given as pistols for each Corporal gunner, a carbine for the Major Sergeant and rifles for all others."

When you take a look at the Italians, you can see that squad is SPLIT in the for long long time (I play this game for like 5 years and I do not remember it to be different).

So, Italian rifle platoon should be in fact made of 2 squads, each with 20 men, representing Carcano rifles and Breda Machine Guns as one.

Does it sound familiar? Yes it does, this is how Polish are organized. But when you are playing Italians, you can simulate platoon maneuvers correctly and you are not loosing that effective in-game firepower, you are not limited to 4 weapons slots as well (you have 8 instead, due to the split into 2 separate units).

I have a feeling that Spanish army is designed similarly, but I know little of it, someone else would have to confirm.

So I say: If Italians are organized that way, Polish should be as well. It would add realism and increase effective gameplay of the Polish companies. And that would portrait great numbers of infantrymen, far greater than any other nation was using in a company.

How to do it:
I know little about OOB editing. I make scenarios, not armies.
Yet, I guess Polish rifle platoon, simple rifle platoon, should be pretty much the same starting from January 1930.
It currently consists of:
Medium Infantry (19 men, Wz98a, Wz28 LMG, Grenade Wz24, Sniper Rifle)
Infantry (19 men, Wz98a, Wz28 LMG, Grenade Wz24 Za, Grenade Wz24 Ob)
Infantry (19 men, Wz98a, Wz28 LMG, Grenade Wz24 Za, Grenade Wz24 Ob)

I recommend to make it look like that:
Infantry (c. 10 men*, Slots: Rifle, Rifle, Grenade, Grenade**)
Infantry (c. 10 men*, Slots: Rifle, Rifle, Grenade, Grenade**)
Infantry (c. 10 men*, Slots: Rifle, Rifle, Grenade, Grenade**)
Medium Infantry (c. 9 men*, Slots: Rifle, LMG, Grenade, Grenade**)
Medium Infantry (c. 9 men*, Slots: Rifle, LMG, Grenade, Grenade**)
Medium Infantry (c. 9 men*, Slots: Rifle, LMG, Grenade, Grenade**)

* - I will get you exact data on numbers if you like
** - Second grenade may be optional

This way Polish squad is correctly split. I am joining command element with covering element, as mentioned above, they were often merged. But I can propose additional division, yet I say if we made 9 in-game units if of this that would waaay too much.
If would need to be clarified whether Medium Infantry unit should also have 46mm mortar. If you accept the general idea, I will get the very details.

Quick note about weapons (thing of less importance, but if we are with it):
Wz. 98a - currently most common rifle - was produced from 1936 and less than 100.000 models were produced. This weapon should not be that most often spotted.
Instead, Polish should be armed with standard Wz. 98 which was nearly direct copy of Gewehr 98 and quite common (half million in numbers) Wz. 29, which was resemblant to Karabiner 98.
MORS SMG - technically it should not be so widely available, only about 200 were manufactured.
Grenades - up to you, every other nation seems to have just one "grenade". There was a difference between Za and Ob variants of Wz. 24 Grenade, but I am not sure if OOB should portrait that.

OK, that was long, but I hope you made through this. I did a lot of research about rifle companies of various nations and decided to address that aspect.

If you like, I may also check up that MG Company. It seems to be quite correct, but I am not sure what Taczankas are doing there. And Wz. 14 HMG was completely scrapped in 1939, also.

DRG October 4th, 2015 02:53 PM

Re: Polish OOB
I have cut and copied this to study once I actually start looking at doing OOB work AND I'll wait and see who else might have an opinion on this but a few points.

1/ Have you adjusted your OOB to see how that plays out ? I suspect not

2/ The ENTIRE reason winSPWW2 allows up to 19 men and all the infantry graphics are set up for 19 max is because of those Polish 19 man platoons ( that you want to split 9+10............) that have been set up that way for years and this is the FIRST complaint I've heard about it and we have more than our fair share of Poles that have expessed interest and opinons about how the OOB is put together. The Info line of that OOB only scratches the surface

Don't take that as a negative. If the game can be made more true to life without tearing it all apart and starting again I will try to accomodate but this is a fundamental change to the infantry in that OOB so not something I would do just to see who it makes happy and unhappy


3/ you should know that the ONLY difference in game terms between a Wz. 98a and a Wz. 98 is the ''a" and I could easily fix that by removing the 'a' but this is getting a wee bit too nit picky..... yes?

4/ Genades were covered by Drela a year or two back and my compromise was what's there now because going to one grenade screws things up that this solution does not and the only people this upsets are people who know there was a Za and Ob variant and in game terms it mean NOTHING
IN game terms we could have generic Handgrenades and generic "rifles" for evey nation and the game would play out the same so really that is a complaint about an insignificant detail


DRG October 4th, 2015 03:14 PM

Re: Polish OOB

Originally Posted by SaS TrooP (Post 831511)

MORS SMG - technically it should not be so widely available, only about 200 were manufactured..

Seriously.........there is ONE UNIT in that entire OOB that uses that weapon........ONE.......and it's a 3 radio code which means the AI never buys it

SaS TrooP October 4th, 2015 03:14 PM

Re: Polish OOB
1. You mean editing OOB in my game? Not really, as I said, I am not good with that.

2. That is not really any sort of complaint. I am just informing you that efficiency is down pretty badly. This makes German and other scenarios way easier. Funny thing is that I have seen a scenario or two where designer manually adjusted that. All I ask is to consider that thing in the game. Italians have it? Why not the others if necessary?
At this moment Polish quite often seem to be loosing firefights they should not. I came up for this idea after playing couple of September 1939 PBEMs, against Slovaks, Germans, Soviets etc.

3. Not sure what do you mean by that. I mentioned weapons only as a detail.

4. Rifles are actually pretty well covered. This is what I like in this game and this is why I mentioned Wz. 98 and Wz. 29. As for grenades - just noting that, nothing else - there is a significant difference in "kill" statistic (3:0 and 6:0). These grenades pretty much include the difference in Polish division of grenade. Our doctrine used to (not sure how it is now) differ them between typical "fragmentation grenades" (which is Ob = obronny), such as soviet F-1 grenade and those grenades relying on explosion power rather than fragmentation (Za = zaczepny), such as soviet RG-42. This division seems quite dead for me and I just don't get why we include two different grenades.
But as I said, it's just a mention, do as you like with it.

That platoon is key argument.

DRG October 4th, 2015 03:32 PM

Re: Polish OOB

Originally Posted by SaS TrooP (Post 831517)
I just don't get why we include two different grenades.

The original OOB designer had one (1) Grenade ( weapon 87 Granat wz.24) then the OOB was modified.....by a Pole........ to include both the Ob and the Za and I am NOT tearing them all out and having to issue corrected units for EVERY scenario that uses 1939 era Polish units because when you remove a weapon and leave a blank it makes scenhack scream and that makes me unhappy ........all for change that is totally insignificant to gameplay

It's right up there with the Kb wz. 98a vs Kb wz. 98 issue

I UNDERSTAND the platoon is the key issue, do you understand the work that went into creating the 19 man infantry graphics because the Poles used 19 man platoons and in 10 year + this is the first time anyone has even suggested it's wrong ?


wulfir October 4th, 2015 03:33 PM

Re: Polish OOB
IIRC, in older versions of the game the Polish 1939 rifle platoon was made up of five-six smaller sections...

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