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-   -   What makes this game worth $40 more than any other roguelike? (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=50559)

garion333 December 23rd, 2014 03:15 PM

Re: What makes this game worth $40 more than any other roguelike?
 
There's an interesting question here (and forgive me for playing devil's advocate a bit):

Why are commercial roguelikes so cheap, comparatively?

There are plenty of rogue-like-likes (or procedural death labyrinths) and they're all around the $10-$20 range. Why is that?

That's an incredibly complex question and one that probably has no answer. Steam and bundles are clearly a huge part of that discussion, as is the fact that roguelikes have been free for the most part. Why?

That said, the question Daka had is: Why is Approaching Infinity $40 while something like Tome is $7?

And I don't think you answered that directly, Bob. Or at least your answers weren't quite what he wanted to hear.

Quote:

Does any other genre of pc game have a built in price limit? RTS, FPS, 4X ?
Why then should roguelikes, the genre that we love so much, whose core principles are argued over heatedly from fierce believers on every side?
Why a built in price limit?
Because the market shows that people generally aren't willing to pay $40 when they can play many other roguelikes for nothing or next to nothing.

Quote:

One key design principle is "ease of use". That does not mean it's an easy game, it means that you can learn to play it in 10 minutes. There are not 75 different esoteric commands.
And I'm more than happy to pay for that. Believe me. But I backed on KS and got a $40 game for a lot less than that, so I don't know how I would feel about forking over $40.

Shrapnel plays the long tail game. They expect a modest amount of sales that continue over the long term. I can see that happening here, but I can also see the flip side of the coin. You went and made a roguelike and priced it at $40. This topic is something I fully expected to come up and I'm sure you did too, especially after effectively pricing the game at $10 on the Kickstarter.

It's super interesting to me because Matrix has finally begun to give in and put their games on Steam, joining in on the merry little holiday sales extravaganzas. Has that worked for them? Has it brought on the support nightmares they were trying to avoid? Don't know.

DakaSha December 24th, 2014 03:53 AM

Re: What makes this game worth $40 more than any other roguelike?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ibol (Post 827584)
DakaSha,
You might not be back for a while, but I must respond to this:
Quote:

"I'm not sure what gave you the impression that I come form this new generation of roguelite players. I'm incredibly well versed in both the old, the new, and even roguelike development."
If you read what I wrote, you will see that I never said you were part of it. The only group I put you in was the one of rogue-like-lovers, which I am also a part of.

Ah ok, I misunderstood then.

Tim Brooks December 24th, 2014 08:04 AM

Re: What makes this game worth $40 more than any other roguelike?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by garion333 (Post 827601)
It's super interesting to me because Matrix has finally begun to give in and put their games on Steam, joining in on the merry little holiday sales extravaganzas. Has that worked for them? Has it brought on the support nightmares they were trying to avoid? Don't know.

You know, we tried Steam with several titles that were priced $25.00 and below. We sold more copies on our website than Steam sold, unless the game was put in a bundle (4 or 5 games for $5.00 or so). Steam is nothing but an impulse buy site and the games need to be priced as such. They don't advertise individual titles, and the don't offer support. We learned pretty quickly their answer to support was "here is your money back." Some people wanted the game to work and not their money back and came to us for support. But you can't support games that sell for $1.00.

I wonder if Matrix is having different results...

garion333 December 24th, 2014 10:35 AM

Re: What makes this game worth $40 more than any other roguelike?
 
Jeff Vogel, he of Spiderweb Software, has spent most of 2014 writing about the state of games, games pricing and the indie bubble bursting. A number of his blog posts are germane to this discussion and while they may not apply directly to Approaching Infinity I think they're all good reads.

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2014/...ld-people.html

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2014/...s-popping.html

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2014/...d-pain-of.html

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2014/...-computer.html

Edit: Some other good articles -

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/LarsD...ows_spikes.php

http://thecastledoctrine.net/seedBlo...=1&show_date=1

garion333 December 24th, 2014 10:52 AM

Re: What makes this game worth $40 more than any other roguelike?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Brooks (Post 827616)
Quote:

Originally Posted by garion333 (Post 827601)
It's super interesting to me because Matrix has finally begun to give in and put their games on Steam, joining in on the merry little holiday sales extravaganzas. Has that worked for them? Has it brought on the support nightmares they were trying to avoid? Don't know.

You know, we tried Steam with several titles that were priced $25.00 and below. We sold more copies on our website than Steam sold, unless the game was put in a bundle (4 or 5 games for $5.00 or so). Steam is nothing but an impulse buy site and the games need to be priced as such. They don't advertise individual titles, and the don't offer support. We learned pretty quickly their answer to support was "here is your money back." Some people wanted the game to work and not their money back and came to us for support. But you can't support games that sell for $1.00.

I wonder if Matrix is having different results...

I don't understand how you can claim Steam is "nothing but an impulse buy site". That's like saying "Target is nothing but an impulse buy site" and I simply can't agree with that. Sure, a metric ton of sales of games priced under $10 probably come through Steam sales extravaganzas, but I find it hard to believe that all game sales are "impulse" buys.

Also, they don't sell many bundles, those generally come from Humble Bundle and the other sites of that ilk. I would definitely agree that bundle sites are generally impulse purchasing. There you have a game or two people are interested in and only have to pay $4 to get, but come with all these other games too. It's the enticement of pay what you want coupled with the quantity of games you get. Quality matters to a much less extent. However, quality still matters because bundles with more sought after games make more money. (That statement is one I don't have data for outside of anecdotal data.) Humble Bundle compared to a site like Bundle Stars tends to have higher quality bundles.

As far as support, yeah, you're on your own. That's what I meant when I reference Matrix's fears.

Anyway, I think you'll find Jason Rohrer's post (linked in previous post, the Castle Doctrine blog) to be in line with your thinking. I'm not the type to think Steam is the end all be all to PC gaming, but the question still begs to be answered: Why is Approaching Infinity $40 while something like Tome is $7?

Cyberis December 24th, 2014 12:23 PM

Re: What makes this game worth $40 more than any other roguelike?
 
I agree with garrion333, humble is the site that mostly bundles (though they now have a store site as well) but I also don't usually buy things on Steam at the full price since I know that it will be marked down at least %50 during a holiday sale. OTOH, I really like the fact that I could order a physical disk with a manual. I almost did an unboxing video myself (and would have if IBOL had not done one) just because it was really nice to have physical product with a manual.

Tim Brooks December 25th, 2014 06:21 AM

Re: What makes this game worth $40 more than any other roguelike?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by garion333 (Post 827619)
I don't understand how you can claim Steam is "nothing but an impulse buy site". That's like saying "Target is nothing but an impulse buy site" and I simply can't agree with that. Sure, a metric ton of sales of games priced under $10 probably come through Steam sales extravaganzas, but I find it hard to believe that all game sales are "impulse" buys.

If you say so. I was just passing along our experience with steam. If the only way our games sold was to get the price down to impulse buying prices, then that was our experience. Steam does not do anything to promote the games but sales (and in our case bundles). There are other ways to promote games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by garion333 (Post 827619)
Anyway, I think you'll find Jason Rohrer's post (linked in previous post, the Castle Doctrine blog) to be in line with your thinking.

Exactly. He even shows evidence that his game had to go on sale for under $10.00 to sell. I would consider that an impulse buying price. Not many people will spend $15 or $20 on impulse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by garion333 (Post 827619)
...but the question still begs to be answered: Why is Approaching Infinity $40 while something like Tome is $7?

It is called value added. You get a forum where you can come and talk about pricing or even how cool the game is. You get 18 hour a day support (with the exception of certain holidays). You can order a physical product online or even walk into you local game shop and buy a copy (and if your local game shop doesn't have it ask them to get it!). You get regular upgrades, both bug fixes and enhancements. All these things cost money. You can't do it for $7.00.

And finally you support independent game development. If you want Ibology to release more games, then support them through Approaching Infinity. Games that sell for $7.00 will keep independent gaming in the hobby category.

My last thought. Each gamer has to decide what gaming is worth to them. There obviously is a market for $7.00 just like there is a market for $40.00 games. Some will never spend $40.00 on a game, but we have found that our audience rarely buys a $7.00 game.

MassEject December 26th, 2014 11:00 AM

Re: What makes this game worth $40 more than any other roguelike?
 
I donated via Kickstarter for this game, well worth the price of admission. Is it worth 40 dollars? I would say, Hell Yes! Maybe it's a matter of persona taste, but I feel like Approaching Infinity is everything Mass Effect 1, should have been. For me it's all about game play, depth, and open-ended player agency. Approaching Infinity has all this, in spades. This is one of the finest indie titles I have ever had the pleasure of playing. Hell, this game fires most Triple A games.

Excellent work, in general. I would have easily paid 40 dollars for this game had I not thrown in on its Kickstarter.

David E. Gervais December 27th, 2014 06:56 AM

Re: What makes this game worth $40 more than any other roguelike?
 
I'm a roguelike fan, no question about it, and there are hundreds if not thousands of roguelike games that use free graphics that I made available to the public. Many of these games are even 'sold commercially' weather it be for $0.99 on the app store or higher for retail. The value of a game is in it's gameplay and how we get entertainment value from it. There is no 'Set Rule' that governs how much a game should be sold for. We the consumer are the one that decides weather a game is worth the money spent or not. If someone asked me 10 years ago if I was willing to pay $2000 for a great game would I? my answer would have been "No Way! No game is worth that much!!" guess what?, I've spent over $2000 for the pleasure of playing one game, and several hundred dollars for others. they are called MMORPG's.. care to guess the names?

The value of a game for me, is not so much how much out of pocket I am for the game,.. but how much enjoyment I can get out of the game, and My experience from roguelikes to mmorpg's, has always been that I get as much enjoyment out of a game as I am willing it put into the game.

When I see a programmer like Bob, who has lots of great ideas and a passion to make those ideas come to life. It inspires me, and I thank him for allowing me to exercise some of my own creativity as an artist. $40 is not allot when you look at the value you get from it. Not only are you getting a fun game with lots of depth, you are investing in the future of a man well deserving of a place in the game development industry.

But all this ranting aside, to answer the topic of this post.. " What makes this game worth $40 more than any other roguelike?" We do, the people that buy it and spend hours of enjoyment playing the game. Nobody is forced to buy the game, at whatever price. The choice to buy or not is entirely up to you.

Nuf Said, Cheers!

DakaSha December 28th, 2014 08:34 AM

Re: What makes this game worth $40 more than any other roguelike?
 
I haven't actually gotten a single answer as to what makes this title worth the 40 bucks in comparison to other titles that cost nothing/next to nothing, unless you count the interface thing which isn't even valid.

Just a bunch of to-be-expected fanboysim and arguments to support devs by spending more (though not an actual comparative REASON to spend more).

The bulk of fanboy bs here could just as well be applied to some minesweeper clone. "I got x hours of enjoyment out of it, so it's worth 40 bucks even though there is a free version that comes with windows."

Horrible. Will not buy for this price, and I'm suspecting I am not the only one.


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