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-   -   Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.11) 2018 (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=52062)

Pibwl September 23rd, 2018 02:32 PM

Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.11) 2018
Some leftovers from OOB review 3 years ago - and artillery:


30 Cannone 75L27 - range should rather be 200 (10.200m at best https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/75/27_Mod._1906) - now 201.
Name could be changed to "75/27" according to Italian naming system (coherent with unit 29 name).

Better icon for its narrow trail would be 2111 (proposed also for Spain - for Mod.06 gun at least; Mod.11 gun would be split-trail, but it would demand a new unit, with the same data, but specific photo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon.../27_modello_11 - I don't suppose you wanted to ;) )

31 Obice da 100L17 - as I've mentioned in Spanish thread, range was only 8.2km https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0koda_10_cm_Vz._1916 [now 200].
Icon should be 2115.
Name could be changed to "100/17" according to Italian naming system.

64 Obice da 105L14 - range of this short howitzer was 8.1km https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/105/14_Mod._1917 [now it has 208!].
Photo is 100mm howitzer (photo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1..._(cropped).jpg).
Icon should be 2115 considering its barrel length.
(it was quite rare - 120 in 1939, used mostly on fixed frontier positions)

164 Obice da 105L25 - as I've mentioned in Spanish thread, it should be 105L28 cannon (Italian version of Schneider) https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/105/28, with a range up to 13.6 km (203-204 - now 212!).
Picture is short Skoda howitzer - better is original Schneider 23108, but it had a distinctive look and could be given an own photo.
Icon should be single-trail 2117 (like other 105mm Schneiders).

427 Obice da 105L18 - there is no info on Italian Wikipedia. Date 1943 suggest some allied-delivered weapon - US M2 (which was L/22)?.. Then the picture should be changed.
Range 208 is impossible for L/18 howitzer anyway.

Off Map Artillery (class 10)

50 Bt Obic 100/105 - neither 100/17 nor 105/14 was off-map - both fired at 8 km (above).

In order not to spoil light artillery formations, a range of 100/17 could be artificially made up to 200 [now 204!]. In this case this unit should be made of Skoda 100/17 howitzers only (which were standard light howitzers, on contrary to 105/14).

Longer 100/22 (Skoda vz.14/19) had a range of (almost) 10km, and was used by Italy, but only from 1940 https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0..._Vz._1914/1919

It could be eventually replaced with fairly typical heavy 105/28 cannon https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/105/28 (unit 164), but they were used in corps artillery (class Off Map Heavy Artillery). It's worth to add such battery anyway.

464 Bat Obici 155mm - heavy howitzers captured in Greece. According to https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnei...e._1917#Italia they were used rather by coastal artillery. Not in light artillery formations anyway.

Off Map Heavy Artillery (class 155)

51 Bt Obici 149M37 - range was even 15.3km [now 204] https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/149/19_Mod._1937
Name could be "149/19"

52 Bt Obici 149M35 - name could be changed to "149/40", so that it's known at first sight it's long cannon (coherently with unit 53).

53 Bt Obici 149/35 - range was even 19 km [now 207] https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/149/35_Mod._1901

428 Bat Obici 210mm - range was 15.5 km [now 209] https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansaldo_210/22_Mod._1935

441 210mm Mortaio - it's off-map gun in spite of 169 range (in fact 8 km https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/210/8_D.S..)

Pibwl September 23rd, 2018 05:29 PM

Re: Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.11) 2018
Infantry Howitzers:

28 Cannon Montagna - it should be 149/12 howitzer, not L17 - https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/149/12_Mod._14 Range was only 5610 m [now 144]. Maybe its name should be changed, to reflect the unit better (others in this class are named by caliber)

(in fact it was heavy corps howitzer Mod.14, but its range was inadequate as an off-map weapon. There was also mountain modification Mod.16 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1...a_montagna.jpg but it isn't clear from the quoted page if they were still in use during WW2).

593 Cannone 65mm - as I've mentioned in Spanish thread, a range is quoted as no more than 6500-6800 m (now 142), and icon is long-barrel twin-trail gun (I suggest 2108)

Same for 635 Cannone 65mm colonial gun

594 Cannone 70mm - should be 70/15 instead of 75/17 - old colonial/border guards gun https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/70/15

Same for 636 Cannone 70mm colonial gun. Icon should be 2108.

595 Cannone 75L17 - probably it should be Skoda 75/13, used in big number https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0...,5_cm_Vz._1915. Then photo should be eg. 4273 and icon 2109, like Romanian one.

Same for 637 Cannone 75L17 colonial gun. Icon should be 2108.

596 Cannone 75L19 - it is apparently the same as 19 Obice Montagna of the same class (in fact 75/18, not 19 https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/75/18_Mod._1934/1935). The latter has correct picture, icon and range (although best icon seems 2163).
(There were two models, Mod.34 with smaller wheels, easily dismantled and Mod.35, better fit to motor towing).

Same for 638 Cannone 75L19 colonial gun.

597 Cannone 105mm - captured in Greece https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnei...mm_M_Mle._1919 - should be available later [now 6/37]
Range was 7850 m here [now 208!]

Pibwl September 24th, 2018 06:09 PM

Re: Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.11) 2018
Infantry support guns

320 Cannone 65mm - same as 593 above

322 Cannone 70mm - same as 594 above

324 Cannone 75L17 - same as 595 above

326, 358 Cannone 75L18
- same as 596 above - again, two instances of apparently the same gun.

328 Cannone 105mm - same as 597 above

333, 367 Cannone 149L17 - same as 28 above. However, it was not an infantry support gun, but heavy 2-ton corps howitzer. Anyway, icon and photo would be of unit 28.

From quite comprehensive infobox "Artiglierie italiane della seconda guerra mondiale" in Italian Wikipedia https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Templa...uerra_mondiale it appears, that "Artiglieria d'accompagnamento" used 75 mm guns max, and Artiglieria "da montagna": 105/11 max.

Also usage of 105/11 as improvised AT guns 329 and 366 is doubtful (and the first one is available too early)

Pibwl September 27th, 2018 05:32 PM

Re: Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.11) 2018
Anti-tank gun class 238

321 Cannone 65mm - same as 593 and 320 above

323 Cannone 70mm - same as 594 and 322 above

325 Cannone 75L17 - same as 595 and 324 above

327, 365 Cannone 75L18 - same as 596 and 326 above - again, two instances of apparently the same gun.

Misc. AFVs

7 Armato M.32 (P) - better name would be "Ansaldo 9t (P)" (Russian page http://aviarmor.net/tww2/tanks/italy/carro_roturra.htm) - now AFAIK it means "Armed M.32" (besides, it was known as Carro di Rottura (breakthrough tank), not Carro Armato). It wasn't adopted as "M.32" anyway.
BMG should be single.

346 L6 Lanciafiamme - a number of shots had been once raised to 16, but it is more than 061 L 3-33/35 LF has [9], while L6 had only 200 l of mixture (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/L6/40), and L 3-33/35 LF - 500 l.
BTW, according to Squadron/Signal book: "An unknown number of L6/40Lfs were built, but this variant did not enter service"

492,493 Fiat 611 - a photo is Soviet BA-27, should be 16053 - or there are more of both variants: http://www.italie1935-45.com/regio-e...m/281-fiat-611
It rather wasn't off-road - 6 tons, 6x4.
492 - two MGs in a turret were independent (rear hull MG was probabaly rarely used...)
493 - MGs were 6.5mm

Speed 10 is correct according to https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_611_(autoblindo), but the page above claims 43/48 km/h...
According to both pages, they entered service in 1933-34 [now 1934 and 35]
Better icon is IMO 50 or 179 due to its big rear overhang - or 4071-4072 might be even better, looking at its profiles (the qouted page).

506 L 3-38 [13.2] - there was no twin 13mm TMG - should be weapon 233,

715 SMV M.42 OA - there were no twin 13mm TMG - as above (should be weapon 233, same as unit 566 - if there were rearmed command Semovente conversions at all...)

Pibwl September 29th, 2018 07:02 PM

Re: Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.11) 2018
Few notes on aircraft:

111,749 SM75 Marsupiale - according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoia-Marchetti_SM.75 its military version became SM.82, and only after 6/1940 civilian SM.75 were also used as transport aircraft (apparently pure transport, not for paratroops - unlike Hungarian ones). The same on Russian page http://www.airwar.ru/enc/cww2/sm75.html.
Besides, 749 should start at 9/43
Icon 486 of SM.82 is more appropriate (now it has icon of smaller SM.79 Sparviero)
Same for 111 RSI OOB

113 SM.82 Canguro - proper name was Marsupiale (Canguro is attributed to incorrect translation https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoia...82#cite_note-2). "Deliveries to the Regia Aeronautica began in 1940" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoia-Marchetti_SM.82 [now 3/39] (there is paratroop transport Ca.133 available before that date).

Same for 222,223,762-764 and RSI 113 and 218
As for 223 and 763 and RSI 218 - according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoia-Marchetti_SM.82 max 800kg bombs were used (weapon 248).

169 Ansaldo SVA 5 - it's still too fast? [3] - max speed was around 230 km/h

170 Ansaldo A.300 - armament was only 2 fixed MGS [now 3]. A crew should be 2.

177,178 Cr.42 Falco - it should be CR.42 (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_C.R.42)
For sure it couldn't take six bombs 50 kg. Italian Wikipedia says about two bombs in fighter-bomber variant (up to 100 kg). According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_CR.42 "During spring 1944, a night assault CR.42 Squadron was formed. These aircraft were equipped with flame dampers and bomb racks for the carriage of four 50 kg bombs; however, these planes were reportedly not used operationally."

As for unit 178, max bomb load was 2x100 kg (now 2x120 kg).

Sources suggest, that fighter-bomber variants entered service only in Africa ( In Africa settentrionale venne adoperato come assaltatore con due bombe (fino a 100 kg l'una) sotto le ali.)
6/40 could be starting date for both, although it seems it was rather 1941: Nell'aprile 1941, soppiantato dal Macchi M.C.200 "Saetta" nel ruolo di intercettore puro, con la consegna dei primi 14 CR.42 Bombe Alari, il C.R.42 venne impiegato per lo più come cacciabombardiere, rivelando un'insperata validità, grazie alla robustezza della struttura e alla resistenza del motore radiale ai colpi da terra. .

179,180 MC.200 Saetta, MC.200 bis - MC.200bis of 1942 did not enter production, but all MC.200 were armed with twin 12.7mm MGs as a standard.
Ordinary MC 200, entering service in 1939 had no bomb racks, and could be a strafer only. A fighter-bomber variant was named MC.200 CB (up to 2x160kg indeed), but they were first used from summer 1942, according to a Polish monograph (Italian Wikipedia seems to confirm it, first mentioning arrival of bomber MC.200 CB from July 1942). Maybe from 1/42 in Russia, as the caption indicates: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...200_Russia.png (not earlier than 6/41 in any case).

Same for RSI 179,180

184 Breda Ba.65 - according to two Polish articles, they were produced only from 2/37 and used from 5/37 (now 3/35). Withdrawn from combat use by 2/41 (now 7/42) (confirmed by https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda_Ba.65). In combat units they were used as single-seaters.

Although Italian Wikipedia says "1000 kg (carico teorico)" (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda_Ba.65) but in fact they could take 4 x max 100kg in a bomb bay (though usually it was 4x50kg) [now 4x250]

(BTW: interesting typical armament variant was 168 of 2kg HE bomblets)

185 Picchiatelli
- typical load of Ju 87B was one 500 (or even 250kg) bomb and 4x50kg bombs, not 4x120 kg (it probably couldn't even carry 2x120kg under each wing)

Same for RSI 185

191,192 Ba. 88 Lince - according to Polish article they went to units only in 5/39, ready from 9/39 (now 6/36). Withdrawn from operational service already in 11/40 as a junk (now 11/41) (confirmed on https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda_Ba.88).
Speed 3 seems too low (490 km/h)

Although Italian Wikipedia gives bomb load 1000 kg, but it had a big problem with overload and wouldn't go airborne with it, especially in Africa, when sometimes they had problems with 250 kg (what is confirmed even on Wikipedia page).

As for unit 191, a standard load was 3x100 kg, 3x200 kg was theoretical.
As for unit 192, according to Polish article and http://www.airwar.ru/enc/bww2/ba88.html, a standard number of 250 kg bombs were two. Three 250kg would be pure theory, not mentioning four (Ba 88 had three bomb racks under a fuselage).

That's probably all on aircraft.

Pibwl October 10th, 2018 03:51 PM

Re: Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.11) 2018
I've just acquired Signal/Squadron In Action on Reggiane fighters, and had to check them:

188 Re.2001 Ariete - its name was Falco II, not Ariete (however according to https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reggiane_Re.2001 it was unofficial, so it might be omitted at all). A fighter-bomber variant, that could carry bombs, was named Re.2001 CB.
They were armed with two 12.7mm and two 7.7mm MGs.
It is not clear when it entered service - according to In Action, 39 were ordered in May 1942 only [now 3/41]. Italian Wikipedia first mentions usage of Re 2001 with bombs in December 1942.
Same for unit 239

20mm guns were used by Re.2001 CN variant, which apparently was not fit to carry bombs. According to Italian Wikipedia, ordered in 6/42 only.

Same for RSI unit 181

196 Re.2002 Ariete - according to In Action, accepted by the Air Force on 7/42 only [2/42]

198 Reggiane Re2005 - according to https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reggiane_Re.2005, introduced in 3-4/43 [now 5/42 - it first flew that month]
Armament of 4 bombs 250 kg is hard to believe - it had one central bomb rack (up to 1000 kg) and two underwing up to 160 kg - and it was not an era of multiple racks for heavy bombs known from today's jet fighters ;)
I don't know if they used 1000kg bombs (and if it could take underwing bombs then), so maybe one 500kg (weapon 243) and two 160 kg would be best?

Same for unit 243 - however from Italian Wikipedia article it seems, that they weren't used after 9/43 anymore at all...

Same for RSI unit 176 Reggiane Re2005 - besides picture is Re2000, proper is 16164


184 Breda Ba.65 - ...

interesting typical armament variant was 168 of 2kg HE bomblets
It could use weapon 10 2kg Framm Bomb (it is used only by 187 Re.2000b Falco, which carried 22 bombs - Breda should use more of these)

Pibwl October 12th, 2018 07:47 PM

Re: Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.11) 2018
1 Attachment(s)
I've found only two photos of RSI Reggiane 2005 - attached. It was rather not numerous.


Originally Posted by Pibwl (Post 843439)
111,749 SM75 Marsupiale - according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoia-Marchetti_SM.75 its military version became SM.82, and only after 6/1940 civilian SM.75 were also used as transport aircraft (apparently pure transport, not for paratroops - unlike Hungarian ones). The same on Russian page http://www.airwar.ru/enc/cww2/sm75.html.
Besides, 749 should start at 9/43
Icon 486 of SM.82 is more appropriate (now it has icon of smaller SM.79 Sparviero)
Same for 111 RSI OOB

111 SM75 Marsupiale - it's better to replace it with SM.81, which, according to "Camouflage and Markings of the Aeronautica Nationale Repubblicana 1943-1945" book, was typical RSI transport aircraft. The icon 326 could stay then. They carried German crosses - photos attached.

In Italian OOb 111 SM75 Marsupiale could be replaced with SM.81 as well - used as transport planes from late 1940 according to Italian Wikipedia. Photo 16144.

BTW: better icon for Italy 218 S81 Pipistrello bomber is 326 (from SM.79) as well, than current 486 from more modern SM.82 (upper view https://static.rcgroups.net/forums/a...20-%20view.jpg)

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoia-Marchetti_SM.81 it could also carry 4x500 kg bombs.

Pibwl October 15th, 2018 06:18 PM

Re: Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.11) 2018
Mostly they are very minor things, but since I had written them down before, I'll just finish with this OOB (unlike 3 years ago, I haven't examined all the OOB this time, only artillery and some things that caught my eye during picture work...)

58 SPA 65L17 - Autocannone 65/17 were typically used on captured Morris CS8 chassis, not SPA (even described on Wikipedia as standard equipment http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/65/17_su_Morris_CS8 ).
According to "Italian Truck Mounted Artillery In Action", in service from 9/41 [now 6/41 - would need change in formations 429, 430].
Ammo carried on a vehicle was 36 according to that book (AT and HE, probably by half, because such was proportion on an additional ammo truck, carrying 250 rounds).

It can also be doubled as class 52 SP-AT vehicle.

62 AS-37 Protetto,
63 2TL-37 Protetto

- according to "Italian Armoured vehicles of WWII" Carro Protetto AS 37 was derived from the TL 37 tractor, so it is the same vehicle. TL-37 itself wasn't armoured. However, Italian Wikipedia calls it Autoprotetto S37 http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat-SPA_S37 , what looks quite reliable, because AS-37 was a name of light truck (also derived from TL37) http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat-SPA_AS37 (unit 421)
The same http://www.italie1935-45.com/regio-e...oprotetto-s-37 (suggested names are "Autoprotetto 37"or "AutoprotettoS37")

MG was a standard weapon, some had portable(?) flamethrower.
According to the book, it entered production in 1941 - Wikipedia suggests 1942, and the quoted page says, that only 6 were made by 1/42.
Capacity was 7 + 2 crew (according to Wikipedia, 8+1). Armour was 8mm all around.
Both differ in size (3 seems better - photo: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat-S...equipaggio.jpg).

The same as for production and size for 484 TL-37 AS-20 (I couldn't find info that such variant with 20 mm gun ever existed).

68 SPA 35 Dovunque
- it was used until 1946 at least [now 12/45]
Speed was 60 km/h [now 18]

399 SPA 41 Dovunque - it entered production in 1943 https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPA_Dovunque_41 [now 41].
Icon is wrong for this truck, for it had a long nose - best seems 606.
It should be AT-wheel - 6x6 drive.

420 Fiat 508M [scout veh.] - carry capability should be max 4 (it carries 014 Esploratori) (which is twice as much for this vehicle anyway - it was a nonsense military spider for 1+2 persons http://www.italie1935-45.com/regio-e...at-508-balilla)

A Scout Vehicle might also be available as a separate unit (now it is only in a company)

423 Fiat 508CM [scout veh.] - crew should be rather 1 [3] and carry 104 [102] (now these are specs of FO variant)

DRG October 15th, 2018 07:29 PM

Re: Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.11) 2018
Micheal........ ENOUGH.

Virtually everything you compulsively list are "Mostly minor things": that take up far more time than they deserve to ensure one "fix" doesn't create other things that need to be fixed. Sceanrios have to be checked then campaign scenarios have to be checked and all of that is a time eating , mind-numbing PITA!

I will attempt to wade through all the other things you have posted but I make NO promises they will all be implemented. You need to start thinking about creating your own OOB MOD and posting it in the mods subforum.

Do not ignore this (for now) friendly suggestion and continue on as before. You create.....perhaps innocently but perhaps not far more work and aggravation and frustration than perhaps you know. You may be trying to "improve" the game but you are killing it.

This is your last post. DID I MAKE MYSELF CLEAR TO YOU ?

Pibwl October 17th, 2018 01:27 PM

Re: Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.11) 2018
Well, I thought, that *sometimes* I might have spotted some more important error...
You can just browse and decide, which issues are worthy to look at, and with which you won't bother...

Anyway - as you wish.

Forgive me one more thing, of which I've found a correct unused photo.
Norwegian OOB: 270 Curtiss Hawk 75 - photo has a distinctive different camo (most probably Finnish) - a correct Norwegian is 20611.

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