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-   -   Campaign thunder in the sinai" (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=51788)

PAnz3r December 26th, 2017 07:34 PM

Campaign thunder in the sinai"
Playing this campaign I reach the "Chinese farm" battle, I chose a coy of T62, a coy of mech infantry on BTR 50 an ATGM section and another fistfull of stuffs.

Well, I won pretty good the firsts battles, then I reach this one, the Israelites have a terrific mas of Pattons and mech infantry, I mauled them bad with ATGMs but finally they breached the defences...add to this that T62s and other Egyptian vehicles have such a poor gunnery that can't hit a skyscraper 100 mt apart

Anyone have played this battle? Any hint?

jivemi December 28th, 2017 12:59 AM

Re: Campaign thunder in the sinai"

Been awhile but IIRC you gotta select targets carefully with ATGMs, waiting until they're in half or quarter range and use smoke to block off LOS to more distant targets. Ditto for tanks. Also be careful with your forces on the lower side of the map--check elevations on the road leading to crossing points so you don't expose them to fire from the opposite side. As usual with Arab forces be extremely selective before engaging them. Hope that helps.

If you make it past this one there's Derversoir to look forward to. Lose that and you lose the campaign. Unfortunately I found it harder than Chinese Farm, throwing previous heroics down the gurgler. Wish you better luck than me!

Imp December 28th, 2017 07:38 AM

Re: Campaign thunder in the sinai"
All I can remember is this campaign was hard, you are not alone in finding it difficult.

Mobhack December 28th, 2017 09:16 AM

Re: Campaign thunder in the sinai"
I have not played this campaign, but have played as Egypt vs Israel in a 73 generated campaign.

1) Even with t-62 (best tank) the Israeli advantages in training and equipment make advancing on them suicidal. Problem with T-62 (and T-55) is the limited number of anti-tank rounds carried, especially if against Israelis since they are armour-heavy. So make your shots count. If you have the full game, set filtering to avoid tin cans (like M113) as they aren't worth a 115mm HEAT as and until you have solved the enemy tank problem.

ATGM units should definitely be set to minimum front armour of 10+ so valuable missiles do not get wasted on APC and scout vehicles. Foot sagger teams are good as they are cheaper to buy, but only have 4 shots - unless you have ammo supply. I like to have those with a BRDM scout car hidden nearby to taxi them bacck to an ammo unit. BRDM with sagger have a decent supply of missiles - and are fast. Pace those on ridge-lines they can duck back behind if spotted (and survive being shot at!). With missile troops, I usually no not manually fire those but let them overwatch and opfire on enemy movers or firers. You want your saggers back 1-2 KM from the enemy so they are less likely to be spotted. But opfire filtering is key - they are too valuable to have popping off at tin cans. If a sagger unit manages to kill 2 MBT in a battle (or do several * of damage ) its well worth the points.

If playing with Soviet kit in the 60s and 70s, I have a few ammo resupply vehicles up front, but out of LOS so that I can occasionally rotate depleted tanks through them for a top-up. 2 sections of 2 at least. Only works in games where you have time to do so of course, but every little helps. Also - if you have some tanks up on a ridge line, the ammo carrier can park in the next hex, but behind the slope. And naturally - any on-map mortars etc are precious as you want to be dropping HE on your approach area constantly (choose one target spot initially and adjust from it rather than plotting new missions, as your delay will be a bit long, except if your gunners have gained experience over 5+ battles or so), so assign some resupply to your gun line.

2) You really need to be within 1KM to stand a chance of hitting, duels at longer ranges favour Israel. And you also want to be stationary before firing. So - choose ambush positions behind a hill, or behind other cover or smoke if he is coming forwards to you, camp out near a taken V-hex. The AI will always "lemming" towards V-hexes, once it has decided to counter-attack so forting up near one cluster is probably best.

If attacking then smash up the point you are going to break into with arty - the HE will cause dust, some smoke in the mix as well if required. Don't move (except maybe with scout cars to spot firers) until the arty is pounding the ground. Advance dismounted infantry for several turns ahead of the stationary over-watching tanks perhaps in the initial 5-10 moves - they may see things, and are far less likely to be spotted than moving tanks.

Bottom line is that you are a close-quarters force whereas Israel is a long range engager. So you have to close down the battlefield in some manner so as to negate his long range advantage. use of terrain, smoke and arty obscuration from HE fire all helps. Also - you really want to use the line of approach (if there is one!) that means any advance is LOS blocked (e.g. if there is a nice little valley to proceed down, or a town or trees).

3) If it is night and the Israeli does not have pattons, you have a massive advantage in that you have IR searchlights - so use it!. Centurions and Shermans tend not to have night fighting gear, only the pattons do... (but your missile troops tend not to, either, bummer!).

4) If you can get dismounted infantry in amongst his tanks - especially RPG-7 teams - go for it. Use of foot infantry for a patient Arab player (if scenario time allows!) can be very rewarding.

5) As with all Soviet vs Western forces, your stuff is best used in concentration. So organise yourself into one task force, all within 1 KM or so in order to have massive mutual support. You cannot afford to have a company team going for Objective 1, another aiming at #2 and another at #3. Stick all 3 together as a battalion lump or "phalanx" and go for 1 objective and plan to camp out there while attriting AI lemmings, and only sweep up #2 and #3 after the attrition battle on #1.

(Of course, while your armoured "battalion blob" is dealing with objective #1, you can always sneak up on #2 and #3 with leg companies and RPG teams since leg is cheap.)

6) The BMP is very useful toy especially if it is night - it has an ATGM and IR night fighting. Its 73mm gun can kill tanks, and will deal with tin cans (switch the missile off first to avoid expending valuable rounds on junk targets).

If delaying or defending in daylight then this unit is nice if you stand still in overwatch and set filtering on. It has 4 saggers which may well manage to kill off or neutralise with ** damage ~2 advancing MBT. It also cheaper than a T-62. Plus it carries a squad to help defend the objective.

If advancing or attacking, then put these in overwatch (filtered for MBT armour!) and dont fire or move them. Meanwhile - advance some expendable scout cars ahead of any marching infantry for a few turns. Scout cars can be cheap little jeeps as well as BRDM tin cans. Any firing enemy MBT may well get a sagger surprise!

I think in a 73 core then I might go for a BMP mech bn (maybe with an attached platoon of T62 per coy) rather than tank-heavy...

Mobhack December 28th, 2017 04:00 PM

Re: Campaign thunder in the sinai"
One thing I forgot to mention above - applies to all especially the earlier soviet kit.

I mentioned low ammo supply (especially AP and even more say, the earlier T55 with only 3-6 HEAT (their best tank killing round) in the load-out. I also mentioned keeping everybody in a single battalion blob.

One thing that can address your ammo problem is to deliberately hang 1 tank co of the 3 or 4 you bought back in reserve and so its not expending precious AT ammo.

Once platoons of the 2 or 3 other coys of the main "lump" up front are going down to HE ammo only remaining then you can rotate a depleted platoon (or an entire coy) with the reserve you carefully kept out of battle. The pulled-back ones can then reload from your ammo carriers and maybe be back in action in the very late game.

That totally fresh company introduced into the later battle can markedly swing things. Its well worth the opportunity cost of keeping it left out of battle till the mid to late game.

And of course if the rest of the battalion "main lump" managed to kill off all/most the enemy armour without needing the reserves help - the fresh reserve coy can lead the sweep-up of the other 2 victory hex clusters with any low ammo troops following its lead.

Reloading takes time - so having that fresh fully "bombed up" tank company as a "second echelon" is very good insurance, IMHO. Especially in the case of the earlier T55s with 3-6 HEAT rounds!. Otherwise you can find yourself with all tanks going out of AP ammo all at once as you put them all in the battle line because you succumbed to temptation. Yes - been there and bought that T-shirt and mug, with my T-55s fighting off the enemy panzers with only HE ammo..:hurt:!

PAnz3r December 29th, 2017 03:12 PM

Re: Campaign thunder in the sinai"
Great hints chap, I usually run soviets equipped forces, so these woul be usefull also in other battles.

Well, I finished the battle in a draw, and the campaign was over after this battle, I found it very challenging and maybe I could re-do it.
To be honest I have destroyed a lot of Israeli tanks and troops, they were badly mauled when the battle finished; also my guys, mainly tanks, were in a bad status.

My force was:
Full coy of T62
Full mech coy on OT62 with guns
Mech support coy with malyutkas, rpg and etc
2 engi sect on OT62
4 zsu 57-2

A little recap: I left the chinese farm unguarded and rushed the ATGM armed infantry in the center, switching of the ATGMs; in the meantime T62 sneak alog a low cresr to reach the suez cuttings
The battle go pretty straight, I use ATGMs only with 60% or more hit probability and keep T62 behind the crest ready to flank the Israeli tanks.

Now the problem...my tankers, also my experienced T62, can't it a barn in the middle of nowhere, I pop-up them from the crest achiving a couple of good kill against Pattons, then they start to hit no-one, in commanded fire nor in overwatch fire,nothing.
The move was smart and ,with a slightly better fire control or better crews, it would have been a winning blow...but it was not, I lose all my T62...

A couple of question:

How can I filter the objective for my weapons?
Is it possible to save Sabot or Heat ammo?
I totally don't understand how the close assault work ( but the Israeli know...coz they burn a lot of things'

scorpio_rocks December 30th, 2017 08:05 AM

Re: Campaign thunder in the sinai"

Originally Posted by PAnz3r (Post 840651)
How can I filter the objective for my weapons?
Is it possible to save Sabot or Heat ammo?
I totally don't understand how the close assault work ( but the Israeli know...coz they burn a lot of things'

All answered in the manual/game guide...

1. (Paid game feature) search for "OP-Fire Filtering"
2. Yes. Don't fire at "armoured" targets that are a "waste" of your premium ammo (ie Zelda/M113)
3. Attack a tank with infantry that have a suitable weapon (Grenades will do) from a range of 1 or 0, whilst having at least 2 movement points left and "shots" available - the close assault will happen automatically

Mobhack December 30th, 2017 09:35 AM

Re: Campaign thunder in the sinai"
For point 3:

Infantry experience (skill) level is the most highly relevant. Low skill/morale is bad. Elites are best. Your conscripts will do less well than your guards, unless they have gained experience over a campaign.

Infantry that have suppression - bad. Try to rally away any before attempting the assault. If pinned then cannot assault anyway. But every suppression point you have is bad in assault.

Infantry has a good HEAT anti-tank weapon - best. (Grenades least good except if AFV has 0 top armour). An AT-rifle is less useful than an RPG-7. Warhead size of weapon used is also influential - e.g. satchel charges have a decent WH size and HE pen. Flame attack weapons are extremely good for assaults - flame can bypass any armour, even of say a Maus...

Infantry that have moved then try an assault - bad. You could charge 4 hexes down a road and attack with your remaining 2 MP (introduced a few years ago - need 2 MP remaining to assault) but its not the best idea. Best not to have moved at all - so best assault target is any enemy AFV that has put itself alongside one of your infantry, or your guys have camped out beside it since their last turn, unobserved.

Infantry that is not spotted - good (ambush bonus).

Infantry section is large (~4 man poor, 12+ better). Other than dedicated inf-AT classes who have an edge in assault over ordinary infantry and so dont have the small team deficit. Engineers are nothing special over infantry - they just tend to carry kit that makes big bangs *larger W/H size, HE pen) or have flane attack bonuses.
NB - Crews, HQ, snipers have a deficit in assaults (the old SSI sniper as a tank killer went a decade or so back!).

Infantry with damage - less good. Every damage point carried is bad, depleted squads are best not used unless in extremis. Ties in with the point above - the damage reduces manpower and counts against the depleted squad.

AFV with open tops (or sides etc) - very good (grenade buckets!).

Tanks that are buttoned or worse - good. Can be worth your while having another team shoot at it till its buttoned before you assault - especially teams with light mortars which have a larger W/H size than bullets do, so are more likely to pin or possibly even send into retreat an AFV target. Light mortars may even manage a disabling track hit. Routing AFV have poorest inf-assault defence chance other than open-topped ones.

Tanks that have been immobilised (track hit) - better chance. (So a routed AFV that has been immobilised, and is open-topped would fare poorest if swarmed by a horde of grunts).

AFV has low experience and/or morale (conscripts etc) - fare poorer than experts of course. Less chance of rolling a good defensive result, less chance of spotting any potential assaulters, more chance of being in buttoned or worse status due to events.

AFV (or APC) carrying an infantry team can defuse the assault. APC which protect the crew are better than tanks which have to carry them as riders. Tank riders suffer higher casualties. As well as defusing attacks (usually taking damage as a result) on some occasions the infantry can dismount and shoot the failed assaulter in the face. Small teams provide less protection than larger ones of course, a tank carrying a sniper will have less defence chance than if it was a 10 man full-sized rifle section. Tank riders with higher experience and morale work better than a bunch of raw conscripts. The cure for tank riders is of course to hose down any potential targets with rifle or MG fire before assaulting, so they dismount damaged and in poor morale (hopefully!).

Multiple assaults of course can work much better than just the one. If the first team fails, but you rally it up again for a second go may do better especially if the first assault made the tank go into retreat or rout, disabled a track or whatever. If several rifle teams are attacking then it can be a sticky situation for the enemy tankers.

Even if you dont kill a tank with an assault you can make it retreat away - opening up rear shots for any supporting armour or AT guns.

PAnz3r December 30th, 2017 09:02 PM

Re: Campaign thunder in the sinai"

Originally Posted by scorpio_rocks (Post 840658)

Originally Posted by PAnz3r (Post 840651)
How can I filter the objective for my weapons?
Is it possible to save Sabot or Heat ammo?
I totally don't understand how the close assault work ( but the Israeli know...coz they burn a lot of things'

All answered in the manual/game guide...

1. (Paid game feature) search for "OP-Fire Filtering"
2. Yes. Don't fire at "armoured" targets that are a "waste" of your premium ammo (ie Zelda/M113)
3. Attack a tank with infantry that have a suitable weapon (Grenades will do) from a range of 1 or 0, whilst having at least 2 movement points left and "shots" available - the close assault will happen automatically


I have the premium, and I read th3 manual but I haven't found the filter explanation :/

scorpio_rocks December 30th, 2017 09:56 PM

Re: Campaign thunder in the sinai"
In the "CD-Extended features" section between "CAMPAIGNHACK" and "PBEM CAMPAIGN" - search for OP-FIRE FILTERING (there is only 1 match...)

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