Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

Game setting is June 1950, all para battle. Both my opponent and I have purchased the USA abn 81mm mtr which is part of the abn battalion support, the mtr unit looks like a squad. We have noted that neither of us can get the mortars to fire indirect, is this correct?

I have attached a test setup.

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

There is a section of the Game Guide entitled "MBT Unit Classes" which can save you the trouble of posting on the forums:
So they are direct fire mortars, like the German heavy infantry sections in WW2 with 2 or 3 50mm mortars. They are not crewed heavy weapons, which are split into weapon and crew if para-dropped, so they can be used directly on landing. That's because they are an infantry class, not a team.

Should you want regular mortars for indirect fire then you should buy regular mortars and load those in the plane, where AFAIR the crew is split and so has to find their assigned mortar and join up after landing.

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

Why are they btn support then since they cannot support the btn? Btn mortars do not run forward to fire directly at the enemy, they are organic indirect fire fast response artillery that deploy with the btn HQ.

I am going through the oobs and so far the USA para btn support is the only one like this, the French AFN support has indirect 81, as does Russia (inf btn support), Romanian mountain btn support, Swedish btn support to name a few.

According to the TO&E of the airborne battalion the mortars: THE
COMPANY IS SUPPORTED BY THE BATTALION HEADQUARTERS ON A MISSION
BASIS WITH 81-MM MORTAR FIRE. The btn is supporting the company; it even states that the company 60mm mortars are to:

PARAGRAPH 05, 60MM MORTAR SECTION.
(1) FUNCTION. THIS SECTION OPERATES UNDER DIRECT CONTROL OF
THE RIFLE COMPANY HEADQUARTERS BUT CAN, AS MISSION DICTATES, BE
ATTACHED TO A RIFLE PLATOON. THIS SECTION WITH TWO MORTARS MAY BE
EMPLOYED IN THE INDIRECT FIRE OR DIRECT FIRE MODE TO PROVIDE
LIMITED IMMEDIATE FIRE SUPPORT TO THE RIFLE COMPANY.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit.../07037L000.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M252_mortar: Used for long range indirect fire

and finally: http://www.trngcmd.marines.mil/Porta...f%20Motars.pdf

I am not *****ing, I am asking a question as this just doesn't seem right. If even the company 60mm are for indirect then why are the btn support mortars direct fire only?

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

The direct fire mortars allow you to get some fire support on map without the mortar and the crew separated...... that's what they do and that is a game function that has existed for years.....if you want indirect mortars then you buy normal mortars and they end up with the mortar one place and the crew another and the player need to re-join the two then wait a turn before they can be targeted.......again......the direct fire mortars are an infantry class so you get some support on landing but they are not indirect fire capable

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

Is the French AFN support an [A] formation? NO it is NOT and therefore not set up as a para drop formation so it gets normal arty mortars.....put that in an aicraft and drop it and you'll get the mortar and the crew dropped separately....... they US version was set up by a differently by the guy who wrote it and AFAIK you are the first one to take issue with it .



Para Mortar Pl with "Abn 81mm Mtr" is direct fire so you get some fire support and it's only used by 127 Para Mortar Pl - Available: 01/46-12/53 after that Para Mortar Pl from 1/54 - 12 /65 is a normal indirect capable mortar and it's used in Para Bn Spt [A] so it is dropped and the crew separates out. AFAIK it's been like that for over a decade.......and there are no Russian [A] mortar units and if you think there are then provide formation numbers. I cannot be expected to remember ever detail of the 17+ thousand formations in MBT.

What you are commenting on is ONE unit in the US operating for 8 years used in Used in Formation 132 Para Bn Spt [A] and in Formation 219 Para Bn Spt both run 1/46-12/53 and have now been renamed Para DF Mtr Pl for greater clarity... that is set up to allow players some mortar support that does not need to be rejoined and here's the list of all the units in the game that use that unit class and are therefore direct fire only mortars...so it's not just that one US formation that is set up like that

NationID NationName name slot
1 Egypt Para Mortar 216
4 Israel 60mm Para Mtrs 522
4 Israel 60mm Para Mtrs 523
4 Israel 60mm Para Mtrs 524
5 Japan Para Mortars 462
5 Japan Para Mortars 463
5 Japan Para Mortars 464
5 Japan Para Mortars 465
6 France 60mm Mortar 344
6 France 60mm Mortar 381
12 USA Abn 81mm Mtr 516
14 China 100mm T80 Mtr 405
14 China 100mm PP-89 Mtr 407
18 India Para Support 546
18 India Para Support 545
18 India Para Support 544
18 India Para Support 543
18 India Para Support 542
19 North Korea Abn 60mm Mortar 598
19 North Korea Abn 60mm Mortar 599
27 Belgium Para Support 527
27 Belgium Para Mortar 542
27 Belgium Para Mortar 543
30 Canada Para Mortars 507
30 Canada Para Mortars 508
30 Canada Para Mortars 509
30 Canada Para Mortars 510
30 Canada Para Mortars 511
31 Greece Para Support 321
31 Greece Para Support 322
31 Greece Para Support 323
34 Italy Para DF Mortars 417
34 Italy Para DF Mortars 415
34 Italy Para DF Mortars 416
41 Yugoslavia / Serbia 60mm Para Mtrs 289
41 Yugoslavia / Serbia 60mm Para Mtrs 290
41 Yugoslavia / Serbia 60mm Para Mtrs 291
41 Yugoslavia / Serbia 60mm Para Mtrs 292
41 Yugoslavia / Serbia 60mm Para Mtrs 293
46 Austria FJg 81mm GrW 368
52 South Africa 81mm DF Mortars 215
52 South Africa 81mm DF Mortars 216
52 South Africa 81mm DF Mortars 217
53 Switzerland Fsch Moerser 366
53 Switzerland Fsch Moerser 367
60 Croatia 60mm Para Mors 293
63 Ethiopia Para DF Mortars 438
63 Ethiopia Para DF Mortars 457
67 Sudan Para Mortar 542
71 Indonesia Para 81 Mortars 571
71 Indonesia Para 81 Mortars 572
71 Indonesia Para 81 Mortars 573
73 Portugal Para Mortar Sec 214
73 Portugal Para Mortar Sec 215
73 Portugal Para Mortar Sec 216
73 Portugal Para Mortar Sec 217
73 Portugal Para Mortar Sec 218
73 Portugal Para Mortar Sec 219
73 Portugal Para Mortar Sec 220
73 Portugal Para Mortar Sec 221
86 Rhodesia Para Mortar 98
95 For R&D only 81mm ParaMortar 217

but if you think we're being unfair I can build a new one with mortars that will be dropped in two parts to cover those 8 years.

APPARENTLY this is one formation that was set up this way then fell through the cracks as it seems that every year after 1953 the mortars are normal DF ......but as you can see there are a lot of other nations that use the same type of unit.

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

I would be interested in seeing what TO&E was used to determine direct fire 81mm mortars as support; I have never heard of such a thing so a reference would be fantastic. I cannot find anything on it, but I can on indirect fire. My point really on those para btn support unit is that the mortars are not listed as DF (I guess the next patch will be so?) unlike the 60mm mortars that have DF with them. I bought them thinking they were indirect, I shouldn't have to read the manual for each unit before buying it (nor should my opponent).

But while we are at it, there are Canadian 2 man 60mm mortars that will not fit in an empty dakota, but the 6 man 60mm mortar will. Want me to post a file?

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

Russia formation 103,105,106

Romania 108

Sweden 98

The para mortar is Cdn unit 502 (sten smg + 60mm DF mortar)lists as too heavy to load on am empty dakota but it is part of an airborne company (A).

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

Yes

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

If you can try loading the mortar, it doesn't work for me.

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

Here's what I'm going to do as I have little interest in trying to justify the way a formation was put together by someone else a decade and a half ago that coves the first 8 years of an OOB than spans 70 years .......next release those DF mortars are now clearly marked as DF and there are formations for players who like them that way and new formations set up like all the rest after 1953 with regular indirect capable mortars.

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

That will solve that problem, thanks. I wasn't complaining but it didn't make sense, and since you guys are the keeper of the grail now it fell into your lap. If SSI or GG was still around I would have asked them, you can't fault me for asking and trying to clarify it; I would think appreciation for pointing out an error on something that can confuse players.

Anyway, it is corrected now and all is sunshine (except for the rain here in BC).

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

Simple...... the Dakota isn't set up to load guns......that mortar unit is a normal arty class and therefore will not load into it.......that is the MAIN reason why we introduced DF mortars so players could get mortar support into aircraft but not load AT guns and arty into things like a Dakota

That DW unit was created about a decade ago and this is the first report I have received that it's a problem....it's not a problem in later years as the larger transports have the ability to load guns..... I will look into correcting it tomorrow

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

I will need to spend tomorrow morning going over all of this again..... the reason the US OOB may have been set up as it was because there were no aircraft gun capable.....so the opposite of why the Candian formation failed to load and by setting up a new formation with regular mortars I might be setting myself up for a new complaint next year

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

one big difference is WE answer questions, SSI never did

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

Yep........ I was right and should have clued in right away..... the reason the US formation uses those mortars in its para formations is there is NO aircraft with gun lift capability during those years so disregard the comments about any new formation that gives regular mortars to [A] formations that don't have gun lift capability

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

But SSI did refund my money when I bought one of their games, the WW2 ship combat one, and it was so boring; aim at target, hit space bar to shoot, aim at target, hit space bar. I called and told them it was boring and they refunded me my money...cool.

***BTW - that mortar that won't load is a DF mortar***

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

What game was that? The only recent SSI game with ships that I can think of (Just woke up) is Fighting Steel, and that was not boring.

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

No it is not.

If it shows a mortar Icon it's a "gun" if it shows just the "crew" as infantry it's a DF.

The formation it is in is Para Pl DW[A].....DW indicated it's set up as " detached weapons"...ie a formation that has it support weapons outside the platoon instead of integrated into it.

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

No but we at least HOPE people will read the game manual before playing to understand the game mechanics ( and that includes the MOBHack help that details things like this )

OK......lets go straight to GAME BASICS which is what I should have done last night but I was distracted by other issues and this is something I thought was settled and understood over a decade ago. I forget sometimes that not everyone does understand instinctively how the game works.

Vehicle / aircraft have three carry capacity ratings all built around the one byte code limit of 255

a unit that shows a carry capacity up to 99 can carry foot passengers ONLY

....so if it has a capacity rating of 34 it can load up to 34 troops ( but NOT "guns" and NOT vehicles )

if it has a three digit carry capacity starting with a 1 then it can carry guns....so anything 1xx can carry men and guns up to the limit of xx so a unit with a 134 carry capacity can carry men AND guns (including mortars) up to the limit of 34...if it had a rating of 174 then it can carry up to 74 "weight points" including guns/mortars

if it has a carry capacity rating starting with a 2 UP TO 255 ( the largest number that can be entered) then it can carry vehicles, guns and men up to a limit of 255 "weight points"

because mortars are "guns" and we didn't want people loading and para dropping howitzers from things like Dakotas but wanted to allow some type of mortar support we created these direct fire only mortar units....that have NOTHING to do with any "official" TO&E.....it's what we had to do to allow mortar support loading into aircraft but keep players from loading things into said aircraft that they shouldn't.....so the ENTIRE reason we went to all the trouble of adding and coding DF mortars into the game was to avoid having to give transport aircraft a 1xx carry capacity then have players decide a 105mm howitzer will fit so they load it in....which would generated complaints from PBEM opponents that we were allowing players to "cheat".

THAT is why there are DF mortars in the game. It was much simpler in SPWW2 where there were gliders to carry the mortars and guns but in MBT there are larger transport aircraft that can carry guns and vehicles which "complicates" the issue ......as well not everyone understands if you para drop a normal mortar unit the game splits it into two parts when it gets kicked out the door and the player is expected to find the appropriate crew and mate it back with the appropriate mortar...integrating them was much simpler for players....it meant you could not indirect fire them but it at least gave players the ability to project fire beyond normal rifle range...so a compromise between reality and game mechanics.....again NOTHING to do with an RL "official" TO&E. Once Helicopter got large enough to carry guns they kinda/ sorta took the place of the gliders for moving indirect capable arty onto the game map.


That said I will admit that the game guide explanation of all this is a bit too brief not detailed enough and I have now expanded the explanation in the guide considerably.

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

When opening the unit and looking at the details it is listed as: 60mm DF mortar and indeed only fires direct, cannot be called in by a FOO. The DF stands for direct fire doesn't it? If there are two classes of direct fire (gun class vs crew class) only then they will have to be distinguished somehow.

Thanks for the explanation about carrying, I did know that already but very helpful to anyone else who may be following this thread.

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

Yes FS, I found it boring beyond belief. Then again I find all those FPS games very boring too, but people seem to love them...beats me.

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

The French have the Dakota ST which I fortunately bought some of and was able to get my French pack howitzers onto. LC of 128.

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

fighting Steel is not fps, but ok.

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

This OOB was reworked some years ago with the DW formations added. This is the first complaint....maybe your the first one to use it.....IDK but right now I can see one of two things has happened--- he has either assigned the wrong weapon to that unit OR the wrong unitclass .

So.......sometime before the next release I will dust off my crystal ball and try to figure out what the intent was and what the error is..... all I did was see the mortar Icon and that's the sign it's an indirect class but something's been mixed up and I will sort out what it is

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

Very good you have now justified why we jumped through all those hoops to PREVENT exactly what you did...pack howitzers onto an aicraft that should never have them loaded into...now I have something else to fix though a quick look at that OOB seems to show they were deliberately set up that way from the beginning at least 15 years ago for formation 153 and since I have zero interest in tearing that OOB apart to " fix" something that's existed in this way for a decade an a half all I can say is " have fun"...... but I will sort out the issue with the CDN para mortars....it's looking like this way a wrong unitclass but I will dig deeper tomorrow

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

I did some searching, and although they are called "PARA" they were actually loaded onto gliders and would come in after the para infantry secured the DZ. They were airborne though and delivered via air, just not parachute airborne.

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

I know FS is not a FPS, I was saying that I found it boring whereas you enjoy it; just like so many like Call of Duty which I find boring, to each his own eh. I enjoy War in the East even though, complexity wise and horrible manual wise, it makes SP look like a little kid game and many people find it much too complex, as I did for quite a bit. But after playing 200 turns and crushing Germany in Sept 1944 I like it very much. Cheers.

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

What unit are you referring to?

Sorry, but one other thing need tweaking?
 

Playing my turn and the 81mm DF can only move 1 hex at a time cross country, speed 3. The 50cal HMG can move 2 hexes cross country (speed 4). The 81 mortar, complete, weighs 89 pounds whereas the M2 browning 50cal complete weighs 128 pounds. Each has 4 men per tube/mg so that isn't a difference.

Yeah I know, you are rolling your eyes and going "oh brother" but the 81 should have the same speed as the 50% heavier MG.

Sorry :D

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

ok.....this is getting old......which oob are we referring to ?? if you are going to comment at least be clear.

There is one ( 1 ) "DF" mortar in the CDN OOB weapon list and it's a 60mm all the 81 mm mortars are normal indirect fire units and all have a movement speed of 2 so what OOB are you looking at ?

It cannot be the US OOB as their 81 mm DF's have a movement of 3. This thread has jumped around topics so much IDK WTF is being discussed so once I know for sure which OOB you were last referring to done with this

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

It is the US OOB 81mm DF, but you are correct checking other country OOBs the indirect mortars have a speed of 2, the US 81mm OOB has a speed of 3 as does the CDN 60mm DF mortar. But I was just coming to delete that post but you got here before me.

So never mind; my thinking was that if a patch is being put out isn't it to correct game errors and not just release scenarios?

USA unit 516 Abn 81mm mortar
USA unit 497 50cal M2HB

However don't worry about it as all mortars seem to have a move of 2 or 3; in fact it is the 50cal that is moving too quickly if you just go by weight.

I was only trying to help and not be a bother.

Re: Sorry, but one other thing need tweaking?
 

The 81 is going to break down into 4 components for ground tactical movement while the M2 will be in two groups.

A M2 With 4 men would have two hump the ground mount with two on the gun. All 4 will carry ammo and accessories.

The 81 tube, bipod, baseplate and sight/radio would each be toted by a crewman. While the crew might have a round or two with them the ammo would actually be carried by the grunt platoon they followed in movement.

In ground mount deployment this would allow the M2 MG to move and setup more decisively while the mortar will need to coordinate a more complicated operation to get in action.

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

I humped the 50cal, never a mortar. You are right, two on the MG, 1 on the tripod (that is all we used) and 1 carry ammo (2 cans). The ammo is too heavy to carry along with the MG or tripod.

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

The BIG difference between the .50cal and the 81mm mortar is the mass of the ammo. While the weapon itself may mass more/less you also have to consider the ammo.

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

Me and another did a 50 yard dash with an M2 in the desert when we hit a rattlesnake at night.

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

That would make me run too. We were on exercise in Yakama desert (Ft Lewis) and during the night we had one rattlesnake curl up beside a guy (we were just sleeping on the ground with nothing else), and one curled up on the butt of a guy's rifle. None near me that I know of.

Yes the mortar ammo is heavier but the crew also doesn't carry all the ammo (but then neither does the HMG crew). I was just an observation, I wasn't trying to raise Cain.

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

Actually the 81mm round weighs between 9-10lbs, while a can of linked 50cal weighs 35lbs. The mortar crew does not carry the ammo for the tube except for the 4 ready rounds, the rest is carried by the battalion. 4x10 = 40lbs making the mortar now 129lbs, while the 50 with 2 cans of ammo (although the gun commander normally carried 1 but we will go with 2) will now weight 199lbs. Thus the 50 still weighs more by almost 50% but moves faster.

**no need for a thanks :eek:**

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

Depends who's military you're talking about with regard to transporting ammo. Yes, most western militaries are highly motorized, much of the rest of the world is not.

Being a Jarhead we tended to rely on our boots not our vehicles for transport and almost everyone carried one of either MG, AT, or mortar ammo in addition to their own.

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

Correct..the assumption that the gun crew only carries one round each is not correct when the necessary game abstractions are applied. If you want to move your mortars in vehicles you can but we have to consider the crew as a standalone unit and all the equipment/ammo to operate a mortar or MG has to be considered as moved on foot UNLESS you put them in a vehicle.

When added together the weight a MG or mortar team has to move is roughly equal in game abstraction terms......equivalent mortars move slower in MBT than they do in WW2 but in MBT they carry more ammo..it's a trade off....a compromise..... and NO compromise will ever please everyone.

All of these "guidelines" were written nearly 2 decades ago ..and then they "evolved"....yes when all the math is done a HMG and it's ammo is marginally heavier ( but only marginally ) than a standard infantry mortar and all it's ammo ( NOT just one round per man!) but the HMG does move a bit faster in the game.......live with it......ASSUME it is a more difficult/ slower process to move a mortar and it's ammo than it would for an HMG.

Don

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

There were a couple of issues that multiplied their impact.....a wrong weapon assigned to one set of units and the wrong unit assigned to one formation...simple enough on reading but a ridiculous amount of time was spent sorting it out.......but it is now sorted out

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

That is right, EVERYONE carried MG or Mortar ammo, not just the crew, who only carries the ready rounds. The USMC isn't unique in everyone carrying ammo, believe it or not we do in Canada too. BTW - the mortar is easier to carry too as it breaks down into small sections than a huge 50. But on the other hand, you don't drag a 50 into the field with you by foot unless extreme.

Anyway, enough of this. I have learned my lesson never to bring up an error in the game.

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

The "error" of any consequence was corrected, the other issue is a design decision made 20 years ago that I have no desire to "undo" and it is equal across all OOB's

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

I correct "errors" all the time, as does my aquatic cousin FastTough. Don grimaces ... turns red ... occasionally calls us impolite things ... and fixes them.

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

I have always been driven by historical accuracy. One of my earliest experiences out here in that regard, was in my first Patch Post Pg. #1 & #2 concerning the, and as submitted...
A3. USA/JAN 1977 – DEC 1986/M60A1 RISE Passive/C4/RB 105mm L51 M68 w/63 Rds, M240 7.62mm w/5.9 Rds & M85 12.7mm w/900 Rds.

The issue would span +24hrs. This is where I first learned of the games need to compromise on certain aspects of the game. There are some worth while issues in those two pages of posts that some might find useful. Don really didn't say no to the tank but allowed me through the exchange to draw my own conclusions, and sort of left it up to me.

That tank is not in the game.

Go to the MRAP Thread and see how I fared there, it took me sometime too "get it" and I think that came from Marcello. I got beat up pretty bad concerning my questions there.

But I kept on going and would encourage you and anyone else to do the same here and in life in general.

But I've also been introspective, willing to work with others (Sometimes not always nicely. :D) for the sake of the team and to understand the best way to get what you want is to be willing to compromise without compromising your beliefs.

The work is not always easy and sometimes not always fun. But the work has to get done regardless. Just to put together what I submitted in the most recent Patch Post was easily 12-14 hrs. Putting a plan together, back checking Posts for old data, finding new data etc. etc. and the MOST important thing, reading all of it to come to logical conclusion of all the data needed. And finally presenting it in a manner and format that makes it clear why you want it and how the game and players can benefit from it.

That's the reason so few of us do this work. And it doesn't just come from me and a "select few" others.

There are at 20+ pieces of equipment in the game because others in the Forum had openly in the threads asked me to look into them. And I was happy to do it because they took the time to ask about something that was missing and provided value to the game and players. That is without a doubt my favorite aspect to what I haven't done here in a longtime until recently.

Do the research, present it in a manner that everyone can understand in what you're trying to accomplish. Hope for the best, prepare to defend it but know when to compromise or let it go.

I'm still learning out here.

I also hope the questions (Not so much the complaints.) keep on coming. Because...

From NAVSUBSCH Groton, Ct...

"There is no stupid question, the only stupid question is the one not asked" followed normally by - Your lives and the lives of your crew might depend upon it.

"Always maintain a questioning attitude."

Boy don't they just love me at work for that sometimes!?! :rolleyes:

And an extreme case of it but not lost at least by my generation of submariners is what the below touches on...
http://ussnautilus.org/blog/the-loss...esher-ssn-593/
http://www.threshermemorial.org/index.html

I cannot tell you or fully express it to you what the sacrifice of those men means to use. They axioms from above brought forth from week one and SUBSAFE has potentially and significantly reduced the odds of this kind of thing ever happening again. Even NASA used our standards (SUBSAFE) to investigate the CHALLENGER and COLUMBIA disasters.

Not much survives at 8400ft. below the surface @ ~3819 PSI, amazing what does and doesn't.
Attachment 15147 Attachment 15148
Attachment 15149 Attachment 15150
Attachment 15151

But no amount pressure can subdue remembrances.

Over the "HUMP" but back at it well, later today.

Good Something everyone!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

????

unit 25 US OOB ( I think.....I don't recall any of it)

Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?
 

That would be the one. I just have a "knack" remembering those kind of things. But you didn't remember it though, HMmmm, I need to see how I can use that to my advantage!?! :D :p :rolleyes:

Regards,
Pat
:capt: