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-   -   Fomoria - Where is your God now? (AKA - The Other Giant Meat) (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42315)

Tolkien February 18th, 2009 09:51 PM

Re: Fomoria - Where is your God now? (AKA - The Other Giant Meat)
 
I'll have to look into Fomoria. The Morrigans sound practically imba.

vfb February 19th, 2009 01:03 AM

Re: Fomoria - Where is your God now? (AKA - The Other Giant Meat)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Renojustin (Post 675316)
Hi Jim! Nice guide.

...

I mean... I shudder to think of those waterbless Unmarked going up against just your standard dual-blessed Jaguar Warriors. You have to have run into some problems with them; it's just such a glaring weakness that if anything is exacerbated by the Water bless. Even with E4 you're picking up 10! Encumbrance a turn... the song Candle in the Wind comes to mind.

Yeah, that's a bad matchup for Unmarked with any bless. Firbolg slingers are cheap and quick to mass, so use those instead. You can make many more slingers than Mictlan can hire Jag warriors.

If Mictlan has gone light on commanders, or has broken his army into several raiding groups, hit his commanders with a few seeking arrows, and have fun slaughtering his unblessed jags.

JimMorrison February 19th, 2009 03:33 AM

Re: Fomoria - Where is your God now? (AKA - The Other Giant Meat)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Renojustin (Post 675316)
Hi Jim! Nice guide.

I have a few concerns: When you describe Formoria as a strong contender for Death, you're exaggerating there. They aren't even close to some others in EA. Sauromatia and C'tis both have the non-capital mages to drown the world in bones. Fomoria doesn't. They're competent in Death and must certainly include it in any winning strategy, but to ascribe them more power than that I think would be misleading.

Sauromatia only gets 2D outside of their capital. Yes, they are powerful in Death, but not overwhelmingly more so than Fomoria. They will be pushing into Blood, and will be diluting their potency somewhat - compared to Fomoria who needs to focus on Death as a primary leg of their strategy. And I did say C'tis are the only ones that can beat Fomoria hands down at Death - but that you have the opportunity to compete, as far as seizing the Well of Misery, forging artifacts, and potentially even thriving in a Darkened environment. Also bear in mind that while you will likely compete against Sauromatia in Death, C'tis is less commonly present, and more likely to be eliminated or marginalized early in the game.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Renojustin (Post 675316)
The Water bless seems like a clever thing for the Morrigans but I think the low-Attack, high-Encumbrance Unmarked are just asking to be stymied by anything with high Defense. Maybe something like 9E/4N/4F to leverage your Unmarked to the point that you have a chance at researching up to the Morrigans to begin with.

Well ultimately the third build I offered up really just comes down to 9W/4N/4?. I really can't say this enough - with Fomoria, you can play in a manner that allows you comparable early game performance with W9 over E9, but that as the game develops, you can leverage the W9 Bless more effectively in the late game. You aren't here to run a marathon, there are others who are just simply better at that than Fomoria is. Your strength is shock value (haha), and the goal is to fashion your strike forces around simply breaking opposing forces in the first 10 turns or so. I guess my whole point is, that there are a plethora of ways to play Fomoria that will get you to the late game, these guys are awesome - I simply feel that once you are there, this build is more competitive, if you play to its strengths.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Renojustin (Post 675316)
I mean... I shudder to think of those waterbless Unmarked going up against just your standard dual-blessed Jaguar Warriors. You have to have run into some problems with them; it's just such a glaring weakness that if anything is exacerbated by the Water bless. Even with E4 you're picking up 10! Encumbrance a turn... the song Candle in the Wind comes to mind.

As vfb was kind enough to point out, I did specifically state in the description of the Firbolg Slingers, that this was just about their only purpose in the world. I also wouldn't hesitate to say that more often than not, finding yourself neighboring Mictlan, both of you are going to breathe a sigh of relief if you manage to coexist. Obviously it becomes a Cold War, but still, I am quite confident, that it's one that Fomoria can win. Still, finding yourself thrown into early conflict with Mictlan, my best suggestion would be Firbolg Warriors in front with accurate Javelins, Firbolg Slingers behind them (they are cheap, you will vastly outproduce him), and Unmarked as flankers. It's a battle best avoided though, neither side is likely to achieve victory without bleeding like a stuck pig.

And remember, W9 Bless is only 50% Quickness, the additional Fatigue is -never- as bad as it sounds like it could be, except when utilizing small squads of troops. When you have 30 Unmarked in one place, for example, you can watch them gradually shuffle ranks, allowing some men to rest while fresh troops push into holes in the enemy line to make attacks. Your entire goal in warfare is to push your opponent into allowing you to strike surgically decisive blows with your primary army, while auxiliary forces clean up PD and stragglers. When I describe Fomoria as "brute force", it is not the Niefel style of plodding along and letting some silly Chill aura do the hard work. Fomoria is the One Inch Punch, the Five Point Exploding Heart Technique, the Eagle Claw. Your goal is to deploy such devastating firepower in such a short amount of time, that your enemy flees from the field, screaming like a little girl, while your Quickened Sacreds devour the runners.

When Fomoria mobilizes for war, they don't act like pussies and bring 2 of their "super expensive, nigh irreplaceable capital only mage/SCs". They bring 10. They rain down such cruel punishment on an unsuspecting foe, to make that enemy wonder why 1 more level of research, was worth watching his entire army get turned into Pork Rinds, and then gobbled up while they're still sizzling. When the giants of Fomoria go to war, there are no holds barred, no regrets, and no limits. Through victory alone can this doomed race survive and thrive - once you have hung the enemy god from a pike in front of the city they once called a "capital", you can redouble your research, pumping out more and more Druids from taxing the tens of thousands of people whom you have just brought under the thumb of the unbridled tyranny of the Cursed Ones.

Whew, sorry, whenever I think of my sweet lovely Morrigans turning the skies red with their unholy war chants, weaving the entrails of the fallen into grotesque victory quilts, and plucking out the eyeballs of the mercilessly slain..... I just feel so..... energized, so aroused. :shock: :happy: :re:

Agema February 19th, 2009 07:09 AM

Re: Fomoria - Where is your God now? (AKA - The Other Giant Meat)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DonCorazon (Post 675271)
1. At Conj 6 and D3, Spectres can take a while to get - I usually don't go so far down the Conj path til I have a number of other paths researched. Usually find the need for combat spells 1st (I like to exercise my mages), site searching, then Const for boosters to be able to make use of Conj. So by the time you get them it can be pretty late to be trying to fire up a decent S economy.

...

Send out priests early searching for holy sites. If you've got a good mage priest even better, as they can search for their magic paths too. Holy sites are rare (under 1 in 10 provinces) but in my experience almost always give you at least one astral pearl income. They can hugely reduce the costs you might otherwise incur from having to alchemise other gems.

Gokufan1988 February 19th, 2009 09:46 AM

Re: Fomoria - Where is your God now? (AKA - The Other Giant Meat)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Agema (Post 675400)
Send out priests early searching for holy sites. If you've got a good mage priest even better, as they can search for their magic paths too. Holy sites are rare (under 1 in 10 provinces) but in my experience almost always give you at least one astral pearl income. They can hugely reduce the costs you might otherwise incur from having to alchemise other gems.

This works out well for Fomoria because their only non-priest mage is the Nemedian Sorceress who you'll probably never buy since she is cap only and competing with Fomorian Kings and Nemedian Champions.

chrispedersen February 19th, 2009 11:51 AM

Re: Fomoria - Where is your God now? (AKA - The Other Giant Meat)
 
[quote=JimMorrison;675376]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Renojustin (Post 675316)
Hi Jim! Nice guide.
As vfb was kind enough to point out, I did specifically state in the description of the Firbolg Slingers, that this was just about their only purpose in the world. I also wouldn't hesitate to say that more often than not, finding yourself neighboring Mictlan, both of you are going to breathe a sigh of relief if you manage to coexist. Obviously it becomes a Cold War, but still, I am quite confident, that it's one that Fomoria can win. Still, finding yourself thrown into early conflict with Mictlan, my best suggestion would be Firbolg Warriors in front with accurate Javelins, Firbolg Slingers behind them (they are cheap, you will vastly outproduce him), and Unmarked as flankers. It's a battle best avoided though, neither side is likely to achieve victory without bleeding like a stuck pig.

Mictlan slingers are 7/2 in CBM and not much more in vanilla.
Either way, you are *not* going to out *vastly* outproduce him, even with his negative scales.

The whole idea, as you correctly note, is who is going to force whom off their game plan. Mictlan is going to continue to build 7 jag warriors a turn plus chaff, and race towards flame arrows.
Who is forcing whom off plan? I do believe formoria can win - I don't think its quite as cut and dried as you think. Shall we game a few tests?

People scoff at air blesses. But if I was in a game something like:

Sauromatia, Mictlan, Formoria, Man, Ulm, C,Tis. You'd bet your *** that rather than a F9W9Sx bless you'd be seeing a F9W9Ax.

Wrana February 19th, 2009 04:53 PM

Re: Fomoria - Where is your God now? (AKA - The Other Giant Meat)
 
Right now, Air bless doesn't help against Sauromatia. :( But it will probably help against Mictlan.
Also, there are 2 more nations with strong enough Death in EA: the little ones called Helheim and Yomi. ;)

chrispedersen February 19th, 2009 05:38 PM

Re: Fomoria - Where is your God now? (AKA - The Other Giant Meat)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrana (Post 675476)
Right now, Air bless doesn't help against Sauromatia. :( But it will probably help against Mictlan.
Also, there are 2 more nations with strong enough Death in EA: the little ones called Helheim and Yomi. ;)

Well, I've had good results empirically but I've never actually watched, so you might be right - I'll have to watch.

But currently I believe, If it doesn't hit in the square, its not hit by the secondary effect. So this is more effective for small units (which is what mictlan fields) rather than huge honking armies.

JimMorrison February 19th, 2009 10:37 PM

Re: Fomoria - Where is your God now? (AKA - The Other Giant Meat)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chrispedersen (Post 675436)
Mictlan slingers are 7/2 in CBM and not much more in vanilla.
Either way, you are *not* going to out *vastly* outproduce him, even with his negative scales.

Well that's kind of silly. :p I meant that your missile troops will far outnumber his Jaguars. The difference being that his Blessed troops are hideously vulnerable (unless high Air Blessed, which erodes the danger they present to Unmarked) to missiles, whilst Unmarked are hardly phased by missile fire - least of all from Slings.

If you can convince your opponent to array Slingers against Unmarked, you've probably already won. ;)

However, I still maintain that if you are attacked that early by Mictlan, that they are either inexperienced, or insane - in which case, using Fomoria as described (especially if you practiced in SP, first!), you should win. :happy: If they're crazy AND highly experienced, then at the least, there's no reason, with the tools provided, that you should end up just rolling over, and if he wins, he'll be left thinking "was that really worth it?" - hence the experience factor.

Just as an example there, I went for a second win with Fomoria, and just as initial expansion was ending, Hinnom attacked me. Hinnom. He won (I was bringing it to a devastatingly costly stalemate when TC's Cyclops came knocking at the back door), but it ruined his game. His reasoning was sound, that he'd better deal with me sooner than later, but ultimately he just did a favor for all of my other neighbors, to his own detriment.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrana
Also, there are 2 more nations with strong enough Death in EA: the little ones called Helheim and Yomi.

You got me there. ;) And Helheim is quite popular, as well. :p Yomi, not so much either popular, or successful to late game, sadly. Death can be hard to compete in, yes, but working hard to come out on top of that, can mean the difference between being a contender, and being the front-runner.

Executor May 11th, 2009 02:58 PM

Re: Fomoria - Where is your God now? (AKA - The Other Giant Meat)
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians

It's pretty interesting how the developers come up with nations like this, I'd never guess Fomorians were from Irish mythology.


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