Merkava invincible?
 

Because Merkava tanks are invincible? I tested Iran against Israel and nothing can against the young Merkava, maybe some Kornet borrowed from the Russians can make some scratch.

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

I am not too sure about that - Merkava invincibility. Against the Iranians they may or should dispatch their tanks easily, although the Iranians got upgraded T-72s and some T-80's packages (some domestically made and others Russian).

So, I say it is the crews that count, or make a difference. And, with crews it is experience that is salient.

No tank in the world has more battle experience than the Abrams. Her crews are first rate - top notch battle tested and trained from the dense forests of Louisiana to the Mohave Desert.

In a test with the Merkava, remember Israeli tank crews have not fought a armor vs armor battle since 1973. In the past 40 years or so, her tank crews including the Merkava were used as self-propelled artillery in battles against essentially light infantry opponents.

In a test of the Merkava, to assess her battle worthiness, put her up against Abrams, and Leopards, but significantly reducing her experience level in MobHack on account of her lack of battle experience.

Another factor to consider, is that Americans and NATO train to fight heavy armor formations with armor, while Israel does not have any opponents with armor. Secondly, Israel has adopted a policy using overwhelming firepower of her air force to decimate Iranian armor formations - or anyone else - before those formations could come close to Israel proper.

Israel's power is in her air force. Unless, her air force is checked, her tank crews won't even have to button up.

And, finally what is somewhat difficult to simulate in our game is the role of the Merkava, in that she is designed to protect the crew, provide armor in a defensive mode, and in counterinsurgency and urban operations. Put her intended role up against a tank designed to fight fast moving armor on armor battles and the contest may not be optimistic for the Merkava side.

Oh, hey Roman what is up with your signature? Everyone knows who won the 2014 World Cup and it was not Argentina. And, Germany may have had a better chance to win it again in 2018 if only they had treated Mesut Ozil as the talented midfielder he is.

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Re: Merkava invincible?
 

I think Roman is referring to the fact any model of the Merkava dominates the battlefield in its theatre, better armour gun fire control optics you name it means it can kill virtually any tank in that theatre at any range. Conversely they need a flank or rear shot even point blank front is a fail. Very hard given the open nature of most of the terrain and the fact the Merk has superior vision.
Same scenario as the Gulf War its a Turkey shoot the Abrams could kill the enemy before they could even see them.

This did lead to Israel becoming complacent as they thought it invincible and indeed it was the Kornet that showed them otherwise. It survived very well on the whole though damaged not taken out. Better I would say than the Leo 2A4s.
Israeil therefore invented Trophy and advanced battle management systems.

Cannot prove this but sure USA does well out of funding Israel, SEPv2 was a catch-up to the Merk? They did run back to back exercise which the Merk won overall. Better vision faster target acquisition and despite being slower overall the Merk outperformed on the rough terrain it operates in, Abrams may have got modified “dessert tracks” from this.
Game reflects this well enough in vehicle stats.

Merk crews I would guess are the best trained in the Middle East in many cases by miles as the training is generally poor in that area.

Modern Merk and someone correct me if I am wrong is formidable.
Proven armour package (best as can no modern tank has been proven by a peer on peer battle with same generation tank)
Can carry its own dismounts for foot recon at the expense of a few rounds, all carry drones for scouting.
Trophy, only proven as far as I know defensive system that works, so far 100% success rate. Also so far functioned correctly not firing to save ammo if incoming is not considered a threat. Now I believe can refit to allow reloading from inside the vehicle.
Very good battle management take out the obvious command tank first all incoming fire is tracked and relayed to the company through it.
One might think Israel thinks situational awareness is important, they punch well above there weight technology wise, first ERA armour, drone swarm attack and weapons like NLOS so yes the Merk is a hard nut to crack.

As to Abrams crews being the best don’t think anyone can touch the airforce, no other country can afford the flight time.
Same should apply to tanks I suppose but Israel have outshot them, European tank games, admittedly take with a grain of salt but USA is consistently beaten. Germany and surprisingly Poland using 2A4s are top, runners. There does seem to be a possible trend in Europe, if you only have a few top line MBT’s you get trained well on using them, Austria, Netherlands if I remember were surprisingly good and the Swedes less surprisingly.
Hopefully we never find out who’s best and its irrelevant anyway when it comes to top line equipment and numbers there’s only really one major player don’t think Russia , China or India are in the same league.

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

Try a Gulf I battle, M1A1(HA) with US crews vs T-72's with Iraqi's.
For all intents it was a turkey shoot.

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

You maybe referring to the Strong Europe Tank Challenge (SETC), a platoon vs platoon match held every year since 2016. Admittedly, US crews are beaten, but not by very much.

In armor doctrine, I think it is fair to say, the US marries the Bradley and the Abrams.

Kudos for the great points in your post.

SETC citation: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stro...Tank_Challenge

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Re: Merkava invincible?
 

So to mention, it remains unclear what is the exact armour protection of Merkava, at least when it comes to standard efficiency against SABOT. Anti-HEAT is pretty well covered in SPBMT, indeed Merkava can be frontally killed only from the Kornet at that point.

Here is an interesting thread covering the expected efficiency. There are solid arguments stating that in fact Merkava is MUCH LESS effective against tank vs. tank combat that one may predict.

Also, there is a formidable note: this is currently the cheapest MBT of all of its class. It could mean some cuts.

http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/101...ion-estimates/

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

Some of the things you mention are a bit off to say the least. I am not in the mood to go into detail but...dude!

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

A few years ago (5 or so) I managed to kill a Merkava with a Greek Chaffee. Well, several of them surrounded it, but yeah.
If a Chaffee can kill it, I am sure more modern systems can too.
If you can't pen them from the front and can't flank them, use some old cold war tactics. Wait for them to pass your line, have hidden AT teams and strike from behind.

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

Yes was referring to SETC tank challenge and only from the point of view that USA may not be the best as stated.

Lightly protected lower front hull is (was) a common design practice, many tanks skip composite armor there. Probably considered hard to hit and as its right at the front to reduce weight for balance and control.
Challenger was an example IED’s have caused upgrades in this area after driver was injured.

Think the first Merk loss was a shot through open rear hatches, as said complacency they parked up in the same place each day and did a foot patrol.

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

Reminds me of the time I had a swarm of PzKw II's surrounding a KV-1. I doubt they actually penetrated it but I'm sure the crews ears were bleeding from all the concussions.

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

Yeah, swarm tactics are always fun. Didn't do the same feat as Wdll, but my closest one was a Scimitar riddling the rear of 3 T-64Bs full of 30mm holes. Victoria Cross was unfortunately posthumous for the crew.


Anyway, it gets old quickly, but whoever sits inside the tanks is more important than the model they are. Its also the same in infantry, whoever leads the squad or platoon is way more important than whether Private Randomson has an ACOG on his M-16Ax and/or body armor (though don't get me wrong, these stuff do help). In game terms, a good player will be able to pull it off against a not so good one and the majority of players will be able to do vs. the AI.


And do not forget, for the price of one Merkava 4, you can get 8-11 of the monstrous Chaffees… ;)

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

Unfortunately after a while the Chaffees are not available for Greece so I can't use them for more recent dates. When I have them, I do use them. THEY ARE AWESOME!
Not only they can swarm enemy defenses, overwhelm the enemy, but also do really really well against infantry.
I wouldn't want to be inside one, but I am fine giving them orders from afar.
:D

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

^After Chafees are retired, you can use BMP-1s. Almost the same price, with a 40 HEAT main gun. Can penetrate the rear turret and hull of Merkava 4.

BTW, you probably were lucky too, since Chafee has an AP of 10, while the weakest point of Merkava is 12 AP armor. So it was probably a best AP shot, or a weakpoint shot. In any case, jumping on a Merk with a horde of Chaffees is definitely an achievement to be proud of, although something tells me your opponent got cocky and though "I have a Merkava hurr durr, I can just bulldoze my way to victory". There is a reason uber tanks fight from a distance, and he probably got the lesson the hard way.

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

He was a very good player. I don't know the percentage but I would say he won more battles than he lost.
Got lucky? Oh yeah. Still hilarious though.
:D

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

Game mechanics make it virtually guaranteed, consecutive shots at the same target increase the chance of an over penetration shot to reflect targeting a weak spot. Have to be in range for it to trigger which varies with the quality of the rangefinder.
Adjacent shot with a fairly quick firing gun like the Chafees it’s going to happen at some point.

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

I spoke to the crew of a LAV-25 after the Kafji battle during Gulf I who'd been off to the west near the border where the second (and largely unreported) incursion by Iraqi forces occurred. They were sitting in a small wadi when a T-62 showed up and having nothing else handy (the infantry dismounts had taken all the AT-4's) they opened up with the 25mm. While they knew it was pretty pointless when it's all you have ...

After the thing was taken out by an AH-1 they went up to look it over and found to their surprise that the Bushmaster's APDS-T rounds had chiseled a crater into the turret. They said that given enough time/ammo they thought they could have taken it out by drilling a hole clear thru.

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

Can't remember where or when, but I've seen a photo of a Sherman that was the closest thing to a metal swiss cheese you could see. The marks were all from MG-42s and maybe 20mm Flak. So yeah, every kind of projectile (well, almost every) will cause a dent to the armor and given enough time and ammo theoretically penetrate through brute force alone. How practical this is though, is another matter altogether...

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

The reverse is true as well. Take a Tiger or Elephant and if the HE rounds don't penetrate it the crew may be so "Rung" up or their heads are bleeding out their ears from the concussion.

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

I have played almost 20 battles and the Merkava do not advance. They do their work from retaguartdia. AI knows what it does ...:D

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

I do not have information about this tank in real life. I'm just talking about the game.
In the battles that I have played the Merkava work from retagurdia and kill as much tank as the nose sticks out. I have played like 20 battles year 2018.
The Thoophan atgm and the Karrar tanks can not do anything against the Merkava (from the front). But they destroy the Abrams.

PD: Actually now I remember killing some Merkava in the forest with Thoophan and Karrar. But is very difficult

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

Tip: do not fight Merkavas in the open when you have Iranians (which btw is true with their RL doctrine; in case of war all battles will be done in closed areas). Hide your T-72 variants behind buildings, small forrest patches, hills, depressions, any terrain that can mask your forces. Wait until Merkava comes up close (if they pass your tanks even better) and whack them from the sides/rear. Use infantry to draw fire and cause Merkavas to expose their sides and this job becomes much easier.

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

Would you be interested in playing a battle with me, you as Israel?

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

Thanks for the tips!

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

Okay. Although I already took Iran's hand :)

I send my mail by message.
Year 2018
5000 points.
Open terrain ... :)

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

This

Also, drop big bricks on them to disable them and then close with infantry to finish off, while also using the HE to drive away any supporting infantry.

On-map unit that fires big bricks - BM-240 SP-MRL. Hide behind cover and move after firing a couple of bursts, maybe 3. Buy 2 ammo trucks per item. BM-240 is fairly cheap - about 34 points a pop.

Off-map - use 122, 130mm or larger if you can afford a battery. the longer-ranged ones may be outside his counter-battery range if he does not buy 175mm.

If fighting a LC, your core arty and especially your core FOO will gain experience and so call fires much quicker than the support troops. Cherish any core arty guys and try not to lose any!

But keep your MBT hidden till they can pop forward 1 hex to fire a cheeky flank or up-the-kilt shot at 10 hexes or so. APC should run the mech infantry forwards via covered routes and dismount them into cover where they can sneak up on him. Use the empty APC to shuttle to the rear and bring up any of the mass of walking grunts and RPG teams you should have bought (Israel is infantry-light. Arab forces should go infantry-heavy and choose the teams with the best RPG). Even if the RPG cannot take out the armour, it is a big force-multiplier for close assault - which you should be aiming to do. If you have access to flame throwers, buy some since flame can bypass all armour (includes the Russian rocket launched thermobarics).

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

Oh - the early Mk1 merkavas - 89/90 or so, have image-intensifying night sights (vision 30) and so smoke still works for those. So you can smoke barrage him, and then swarm with M-41 bulldogs at 1/10 the cost of a merk 1 (?) - 35 or so points a pop, with a decent long 76mm with a few sabots. Bulldog is available till 1990 or so, and it also can slay any israeli mech inf in M113s.

Early merk 1 is only 15 side hull (steel) and 8 rear hull and turret. So can be flank killed from miles away with a decent sabot round, 105mm or 115+

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

Remember some Merkavas are driven by women, you may not need to kill them all...


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/84/98...232786e2ca.jpg

:p

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

you are funny

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

Thanks!! excellent tactics

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

It’s vital to take out the infantry screen first and ignore the tanks otherwise your infantry won’t get close.
Fairly open map Israel has balanced combat team.
Infantry around 500m in front of vehicles, they have higher experience will spot the enemy before can close for RPG range.
If they took Mech infantry armed with 2lmg, APCs have multiple MG to, Merk can be set to engage infantry at say 400m but add its firepower in player turn vs infantry.

Iran therefore try not to engage piecemeal need the overwhelming numbers or the firepower coming your way will decimate the troops. Smoke still helps versus infantry eyes if bump heads piecemeal could try dropping and falling back.

Iran needs to think, flank shot possibility will they avoid cluttered areas manovering allowing for flank shots. Could be worth while keeping a platoon or 2 of infantry as spotters for your tanks. They enter hex to check LOS for your tanks who are playing a sniping game against the APCs, tanks roll is very much aid the infantry by taking out there’s and supporting vehicles.
Avoid the Merks unless flank shot possibility or infantry has closed to range and need all the help they can get.
Keep in mind Israel may become vulnerable if try to sweep round in an effort to destroy running troops, the one problem they have is being overwhelmed.

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

Thanks!!!

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

Another thing to remember about suppressing non-entrenched infantry ... machineguns and mortars are your friends!

It can also be worthwhile to sometimes use cheap APCs as bait for enemy armor, both to locate it and draw it's fire before you move other units to actually enguage it.

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

Israeli armor - the Merks - have a decided weakness in their rear due to the rear hatch for infantry mounts or crew rescue. Also, she may store additional rounds in that rear compartment. An infantry AT shot there could be devastating.

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Re: Merkava invincible?
 

You come out with some odd statements at times, said need rear or flank shots, also mentioned if complacent and leave it open it’s a big vulnerability.
Normal operations not really every tank is weak in the rear and has weak spots, most due to engine and cooling needs. Check this but pretty sure more Abrams have been disabled by errant 30mm fire from Bradley’s to the rear than enemy fire.
The hatch is no worse may be better it’s inset you would have to be in the rear 30 degree arc or so not just behind it to target it.

On your American Armor is best occurred to me from European tank trials either the US tankers are a bit slower or the tank is at acquiring targets. My guess Leopard target acquisition is faster as the highest ranking countries are in them. Sad to say as I am British the once dominant Challenger needs upgrading in this area and a new gun from their results.

Not a lot in it I am sure but peer to peer combat I would like to be in the tank with the ability to get off the first aimed shot.

Israel are looking like they will be the first country with full buttoned up capability once R&D is done, hopefully they don’t come to rely on the sensors to much so they can still operate when they are damaged.
They are plastering the tank with sensors in an effort to locate and kill targets as fast as possible, info relayed by battle net, computer takes over and fires if targeting computer is idle.
Already have to a degree but want better coverage (radar?) and even faster response, currently they have to press one button for the computer to take over and return fire.
Part of this is camera tracking linked to helmets as used on top line fighter planes so infantry friend foe detection (slow compared to vehicles) can be sped up and to prevent tank commanders becoming sniper magnets when they stick their heads out.

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

Isn't Armata the first tank with this trait?

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

Really, please go into detail. If obliged, reply in private.

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Re: Merkava invincible?
 

Where is Gingertanker?

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

Big remote weapon station not the same thing, can see advantages to this and fits Russian low profile thinking though it’s now quite a big body from the side compared to older designs.
I would like to know if smaller lighter turret means they get far faster turret traverse as their is less mass to move.
Getting info on them is very hard certainly it’s a modern setup and has a defensive system and external video coverage. Since Thales I think it was shared the technology Russia has certainly caught up the West in the acquisition, targeting and the hunter killer areas though I still think they are behind.

Yes where is ginger tanker be nice to get a nod yes ot no on what the Merk is really capable of.

Armata hard kill system and Iron Fist (not trophy) are supposed to be effective against AP rounds as well due to bigger explosive knocking the projectile off axis so it losses it’s power or shatters on impact.
Bit sceptical and how many rounds can it carry, also reload time trophy is blindingly quick.

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

Given that modern turrets tend to use a power traverse I doubt if the speed of the traverse is much of an issue any more, unless you're looking at older models that don't have it. But even so I don't believe it's an issue in WinSPMBT as the turns are long enough a few seconds one way or the other doesn't matter.

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

"Invincible"

No, they are not, neither in real life or in WinSPMBT. They are damned tough beasts though. Yes - if you are trying to kill a Merkava 4 with soviet 1970s or 1980s tech you will have issues. Let me generally comment on capabilities as much as I can while maintaining OPSEC:

1) Protection: A Merkava 4 is incredibly solid at the front. We are talking about stopping Kornets. Like all tanks the sides and rear are significantly less well armored. How much so? I do not know exactly and if I did I would not divulge online to strangers. As for the rear door being a weakpoint, I would not bet on it being any worse than most rear armor on tanks. That clamshell is very think indeed. RPG-7 older models proof more or less...
The active protection system is double and triple combat proven and works very well and if it knocks your ATGMs out of the sky in game, well that's what it does IRL...

2) Sensors - as mentioned the MK.4 took sensors to a new level and future variants will be better. Night time and smoke, other than specific types, are completely irrelevant, we are talking about practically night as day.

Vague but relevant: to a degree the sensory capabilities are under represented in game, and IRL you would see Merkava 3 and 4 units being even faster in hunter-killer mode...I really am sorry for being vague about this but it is simply top secret stuff. Just know that the game actually gives you a bit of a discount on how well Merkava can deal with ATGMs and other major threats.

Now despite all of this Merkavas were and will be knocked out both IRL and in game.

I would propose always preventing your high cost hi tech ATGMs from firing on their own. Hide them and use them only on the flanks of the Merkava. Even better - on the rear. If you let a company of tanks, any tanks, catch a whiff of you as an ATGM based force before you can spring a trap from the flanks - you will suffer IRL and in game.

Let me paint a picture of what happens with OPSEC in mind:

A company of tanks is traveling when they are unwisely engaged by ATGMs from the front at max ranges (let's say 3000m). At this point the APS will protect the front tank. More over it is extremely likely that the front tank will ID the general location or even specific location of the ATGM. The info will be shared nearly instantly via the combat management system. The company will pop smoke and find a position line it can "work" from. Now 11 120mm tanks firing APAM are going to be employed against an ATGM which is a soft target. IRL this includes top attack capability...This is a very bad situation for the ATGMs. They will be suppressed and destroyed eventually. And this is ignoring the tank company will usually have mortar/UAV/helicopter/NLOS support.


HOWEVER:

If Mr. ATGM waits for these 11 tanks to show their sides, and Mr. ATGM and his friends fire at once and use maybe some artillery to supress the tank commanders, the first volley can maybe destroy one or two tanks. At the least it sends the unit into chaos as artillery forces them to button up. The ATGMs should now run the heck away and re position. Their initial positions should be such that allow this to be done out of LOS of their ambushed target. They can re-position and repeat. Even if the tanks are not all killed, doing this will delay their advance because they will look for positions, spread out, than fail to find what to shoot at, so they will again form a formation more friendly to moving forward, and repeat...

Naturally, there are no assurances when the tanks happen to be Merkava 4 with good teams(Or any world class MBT with good teams).

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

You can say that again. And not "just" missiles but APCR from a 125mm Russian tank cannon (125mm Gun 05) with average PEN of 96 within 650 meters. It goes below the Merkava 4M's frontal threshold of 88 on the turret at 850 meters though, and therein lies a tale:

In a campaign scenario set in 2018, an advance against Russia, a Merkava had come to the last 50 meters of a shelterig gully which had a "keyhole" LOS passing obliquely just forward of a platoon each of what must have been T-80UMs and T-72BIMs about a kilometer away. I'd done this 'cuz a BMP or some other AFV a short distance from the exit was preventing infantry from advancing beyond said gully.

So the Merk blows away the vehicle, no problem, and then backs up (?!) to allow easier passage of infantry. Unfortunately I either hadn't set its facing properly or the reverse algorithm considers obstructing terrain and units. Whatever.

In any event, instead of backing up through the gully it popped back onto an adjacent hex 5 meters higher in full (thermally assisted) view of most enemy armor. Nothing to do but sit and watch in vicarious horror as perhaps 6 or 7 sabot spikes and 3 or 4 Invar missiles smashed into the turret, maybe 10 or 11 shots in all.

Incredibly there was no damage at all, just moderate suppression. Being at higher elevation than the firing units was what saved it, since the hull is 10cm thinner up front. (Who was it that said being hull down doesn't make any difference? Me? Never mind!)

The point being that Merkavas are tough nuts to crack. And next time I'll just turn tail while going back through a gully :doh:.

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

It is quite possible that the front armor on Mk4 in game is over powered. Truth is no one here knows. I am the closest to knowing and I don't have actual numbers. I can say that stopping an Invar is 100% realistic, but I do not know about the rusky KE rods. No one knows.

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

All we can do is guess based on sometimes very sketchy information. I'm sure someone somewhere knows the exact values but there are RL variables that make things like this not so much a mathematical exercise of 1+1=2...more like 1+1 = (maybe). The best we can hope for is "close enough" and in that, I think we are. The only way to know for certain, for example, the front armour values( and even that is uncertain ) would be if a known weapon with known ( and verified )penetration values knocked out at least 3 from the front and it was reported but I just don't see that happening.

But... what I am curious about and it's not OPSEC......how close am I on the colour of the Merk 4's ?:D

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

I think the color is p. damn close.

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

And that is what I hoped. I looked at a number of photos but each one is slightly different due to lighting, wear, dust etc. I am still surprised what I can get from 173 Icon usable colours from a 256 colour palette

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

Are we a bit too early with the Eitan ISD ...or is that OPSEC?

Re: Merkava invincible?
 

AFAIK it's not quite operational yet. If I had to guess (which I do because I do not know) I would put a date of mid to late 2019. There are for sure several units being tested in the Nahal brigade but I doubt they are fully online. I have not taken the time to check out the unit in game if I do and have something useful to add I will in due protocol.