Best MBT of the world 2005 (According to SPMBT)
 

I have made some experiment in order to determineate which MBT was the best of the world in SPMBT: it was quite a fair experiment (and a surprising one):
range of engagement: 2500m
each camp was composed of a single company/escadron of 12 or 13 tanks, deployed in a line, the map was a only clear ground map, country trainig of and exp modified for each tank to got every body E/M at 70/70, I tried every "fight" 4 times, the results are:
- Challenger 2 did kill Abraham <font color="red"> easily </font> (2 for 1)
- Leclerc did kill Leopard 2A6 <font color="red"> Really easily </font> (3 for 1)
- Merkava did kill T-90 without any loses but hardly
When I tried Challenger vs Leclerc, Leclerc did win,
but was killed without loses by the Merkava...
Conclusions:
- Without any better caracteristics, Leclerc did kill Leo and Challenger...
I didn't understand how since I descovered his size is of 4, and I believe it makes him hit less and gives him superiority at great ranges...
- General armor of the Merkava is not so high (T:80, Hull:74(?))and is gun is not very good (120L44-&gt; pen : 90), but in fact I realised that every kill was made from a hull hit in those modern MBTs , so at great distances, merkava is really hard (and quite impossible) to destroy... I'not sure his hull armor is so high but didn't find any numbers on that contrary to Abraham and Leopard A6... It would made him a really heavy tank...
Seems also random is quite good but can do some funny things, I could show it with my precise results if you want...

Re: Best MBT of the world 2005 (According to SPMBT
 

There is no doubt.
The trained crews and tanks of the Israeli forces are among the best.
Their need for such is quite great as well.
No doubt they are among the best motivated as well.

Naturally this would extend to their Air Force; National Security Forces; Intelligence gathering; and across the board, their soldiers as well.

Gus
danstudentvcc

Re: Best MBT of the world 2005 (According to SPMBT
 

Yes, no doubt, war is the best training...

Re: Best MBT of the world 2005 (According to SPMBT
 

Small precision, it was M1A2 SEP tanks...

Re: Best MBT of the world 2005 (According to SPMBT
 

Do remember, all training was set to the same level. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif The equipment was tested here, not the soldiers.

Re: Best MBT of the world 2005 (According to SPMBT
 

That's perfectly right...

Re: Best MBT of the world 2005 (According to SPMBT
 

As an American I pledge to make it my solemn duty to disprove this slander that says anything other than the Abrams is the best tank ever created http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif I'm sorry, but as a former US Marine I just cannot believe that it is US Army http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif training that is the difference.



Serriously though, looks like a good test. I have a few Questions.
1. How many times did you run through each "round"?
2. Did you keep track of the number of hits / misses?

Re: Best MBT of the world 2005 (According to SPMBT
 

Kevin as a non american I think I can explain this without problems:
Desert Storm 1990: 2900 Abrams, over 3500 allied tanks, 2005 I think US Army + Marines have around 4000 M1 in comparison, Uk army has (if I'm not wrong around 400 Challengers and the for french army with the Leclerc).
everything is clear... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Add to that the US Navy with at least 99,9% carriers of the world (french Navy is the only one to got a nuclear carrier and it has 1 (real carrier I mean not the smalls ones UK has for his ADVs))
Add to that the USAF and I think for each poor MBT of the world there are so many US MBTs and aircrafts that during a war I will disapear witout firing.
And don't forget it's the game...

More seriously:
First "turn" : M1A2 vs Challenger2:
4 rounds, kill report (M1A2/Challenger): (13/4),(13/5),(13/8),(13/8) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
My explanation: hull armor of the Chall 2, as for the Merkava
Leclerc vs Leopard2A6-EX:
4 rounds, kill report (Lec/Leo): (11/13),(4/13),(2/13),(4/13)
Quite unpredictable, maybe because of the size of the Leclerc
Merkava vs T-90:
very ennoying, they were unable to kill each other at that range... But I'm sure Merkava would win
Leclerc vs Merkava: only one round, 13/0
Challenger vs Merkava: only one round 13/0

I precise that fight started with a first move from one side which I swaped each time...

Re: Best MBT of the world 2005 (According to SPMBT
 

Now Kevin, you can stay patriotic as much as you want without blindfolding yourself!

The Abrams may be a very, very good tank, it is not perfect forasmuch. Not because it was the only tank from its generation that had the opportunity to make good kills, in very favorable consitions may I say http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif, not for that reason is it the only worthy military material in the world!

Don't start playing lousy American, there can be many lousy Europeans here too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image.../firedevil.gif and we have no need for this here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Best MBT of the world 2005 (According to SPMBT
 

You two don't understand sarcasm and humor very well do you? To all those concerned I was joking.

Re: Best MBT of the world 2005 (According to SPMBT
 

That's forums for you, eh?
Or it is just that I am a bit daft...

I try to avoid sarcasm in the quickly-written form, since it is sometimes hard to recognize (see?). Most people seem impervious to my kind of humor...http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

That doesn't count as an allowance to start playing lousy American either, Kevin, even for fun, you know how that would turn! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Best MBT of the world 2005 (According to SPMBT
 

It was writen "Serriously though" and I did rewrite exactly the same way:
"More seriously" so I did see it was a joke, but Plasmakrab doesn't http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif
And how do you feel with mine, I'm the
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
and
OK, I'll go out...

Re: Best MBT of the world 2005 (According to SPMBT
 

Those tests only shows bad balance in game OOBs.The whole story is about use of Sabot against front hull armor. Defending tanks have allways advantage, becouse they hit front hull armor more often than attacking tanks hit theirs. In real world M829A3 would have not problem penetrate 900mm armor at 2000m.There arent many tanks in the world that could survive this.In game APFSDS rounds loose their power too fast.Round that is capable penetrate 500mm armor at 0m has in real 2000m penetration around 420-450mm, but in game it will penetrate only 350-380mm(roughly)Max sabot range should be rised up a bit to make more real values

Re: Best MBT of the world 2005 (According to SPMBT
 

I swaped every time between defend and attack: doesn't change anything...
But it is true everything is played with the hull armor...
BTW for leclerc vs leo, advantage goes first to leo, Leclerc did win hard, then to Leclerc, he did win easily, then to Leo and Leclerc did win easily the same, and then to Leclerc.... As you can see, the best result for the Leclerc was only 2 dead and at the time Leo had advantage...
The same for M1A2 vs Challenger 2...

Re: Best MBT of the world 2005 (According to SPMBT
 

Sarcasm and humor in the same post?

Re: Best MBT of the world 2005 (According to SPMBT
 

loktarr ...

interesting test. suppose we modify it and test the M1A2 against every other tank (of supposed equal value) in the game.

maybe we should start with Iran and work our way down the list.

just a thought.

fogel510

Re: Best MBT of the world 2005 (According to SPMBT
 

Just a question about the test...did this confirm which is the best tank, or which has the best combination of gun and armor protection? I would think speed (moves per turn) would also be important. I'm still pretty new to this great game, but the ability to maneuver for the best position also seems pretty important. Going just by kills may be only part of the picture - in the old SP2 a Stuart could kill a Tiger...every once in the while!!

Re: Best MBT of the world 2005 (According to SPMBT
 

Merkava 4 don't need any stinking maneuvring. Just put it on the top of the hill and kill everething in line of site while enemy shoot their feeble ATGM and sabots in wain. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Best MBT of the world 2005 (According to SPMBT
 

Feeble top-attack javelins, Tow-2Bs, Gills, Bills, Spikes etc.. sit on that hill with whatever on front turret/hull HEAT armor and there is a good chance of being penetrated from the top. At least when thinking campaign games or e-mail opponents you become very aware of these nasty devils after seeing a few burning elite merkava 4s (750-800 points gone to overconfidence http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif).

Also fo-directed artillery cluster munitions, or a old feeble F-5 with cluster bombs.

Do not sit on hill tops seen and waiting to be killed (unless you have top armor of 70 atleast).

The AI maybe stupid, but it surprises me ever more often.. thanks to the game developers for that!

Re: Best MBT of the world 2005 (According to SPMBT
 

Maybe not in game, but in reality, Merkava Mk4 has best roof protection against top attack weapons.They even eliminated loaders hatch and commander has something like a elevator to allow him get on the turret top... TOW2B,Gills Spikes etc uses EFP warhead, so that amount of passive armor is able to stop them. By the way, Gill and Spike are Israeli ATGMs...

Re: Best MBT of the world 2005 (According to SPMBT
 

The game doesn´t model top armor or pen figures for such weapons correctly. However in real life aircraft and helicopter-launched atgm / missiles often arch down on targets, not much of a chance for stopping a hellfire hitting the merkavas roof, is there?

As speaking of game terms, I personally don´t like the way reactive armor is modeled in russian MBTs. Advanced ERA very seldom stops kinetic penetrators in the game. And calculating Adv-ERA directly to kinetic armor values isn´t realistic, as the number of era shots, (say 4) is decreased if hit by HEAT weapons. (not maybe kinetic penetrators in real life so much?)

However, when ERA is gone, kinetic protection remains as if it would be passive armor.

Also I figure, that the russian MBTs have double-protection versus HEAT, as seems to me that the HEAT armor figures have been calculated WITH ERA. So the missile first has to defeat ERA and tank front of more than 100 HEAT armor. (Maybe a bit too much).

Re: Best MBT of the world 2005 (According to SPMBT
 

Why did you use the T-90 for the Russian test tank? The Chiormy Oriol has better fire control (50) than any other Russian tank (40 at most). You find it under the "Export Tanks" section of the Russian purchase screen.

Re: Best MBT of the world 2005 (According to SPMBT)
 

I enjoyed reading your test of the world's main battle tanks. I've conducted a similar test in that I've placed equal numbers of opposing tanks on a "clean" battlefield with absolutely flat ground with no trees or obstructions and with all other factors as equal as possible. Computer control for both sides. In my results the M1A2 SEP Abrams edged out the Challenger 2 second with the Leopard 2A6-EX next and finally the LeClerc. I did not set up any contests between Western and non-western MBTs though I plan on doing so. One other thing. Obviously my tests included armor protection, gun power, FC, mobility and so on as variables. I conducted this test a while back and plan on repeating it but with some more recent models such as the Leopard 2A7+ and it's contemporaries. Anyway. Thanks for the test results, podktar. Good stuff!:D

Re: Best MBT of the world 2005 (According to SPMBT
 

For future reference, absolutely everything I say is sarcasm unless indicated otherwise.

From my understanding, one big disadvantage of the Abrams is that its exhaust system belches so much heat that support troops can't adequately, um, support it lest they be cooked alive (ERA-equipped tanks have a similar problem, being dangerous to friendly crunchies).

One big advantage of the Merkava is that you can pack your own ATGM crew inside it.

Well... their navy is unremarkable. But then again,
1. It ain't quite Abdullah ibn Saad whom they'll potentially be facing at sea
2. When you don't plan on fighting on other landmasses, and when you already have an air force like theirs, a navy is almost ceremonial.