Cross country speeds
 

I looked at these books and many websites and listed vehicle number of driven axles in the attachment.

Bishop and Ellis, Military Transport of World war I
Bishop and Ellis, Military Transport of World war II
Bishop and Ellis, Tanks and other AFVs of the Blitzkrieg Era
Bishop and Ellis, Tanks and other Armoured Fighting Vehicles 1942-45
Phillip Trewhitt, Armoured Fighting Vehicles
http://www.autogallery.org.ru/gal.htm
http://www.autogallery.org.ru/m/khd.htm
http://www.overvalwagen.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_...C_WC14.2C_WC40
http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/ha...equipment.html
http://armoredcars-ww-one.blogspot.c...r-melilla.html
http://balagan.info/vehicles-of-the-spanish-civil-war
http://www.warwheels.net/images/ACJFinal11.pdf

I think any vehicle with an undriven axle (4x2, 6x4) has poor crosscountry performance compared to 4x4, 6x6 or 8x8. I think it would be good to make 4x2 and 6x4 vehicles easily capable of being immobilised on any terrain type except road. And also slower than AWD types off road.
Many references say that heavier armoured cars with an undriven axle where largely road-bound, because of their weight.
Exceptions might be made for vehicles that have a transfer case giving low range gears, are light, have a very short wheelbase, have a freerolling centrally mounted pair of spare wheels, flat bottoms, engine weight over the drive wheels or very big wheels. The USA weasel is largely unboggable.
Vehicles with AWD and AWSteering are as good as tracked?
Three quarter tracks are better off-road than half tracks?
Motorbikes are too fast cross country?
Bicycles speed 6 off road?, No engine.
Opel produced 70000 4x2 and 25000 4x4 Opel blitz trucks.
Your anti-Tank trenchs stop many matildas but very few bren carriers.
Same piture appears for renault and citroen trucks.

Vehicles missing from OObs?
Britain
AEC MatadoR 4X4
Crossley Q 4x4
Humber heavy utility car 4x4
3 ton Bedford 4x4
C15 4x4
C30 4x4
3 ton ford WOT6 4x4
Austin K6 6x4
Albion CX22 6x4
USA
6 ton Cargo FWD 4X4
3/4 ton Dodge 4x4
1/2 ton amphibian Ford GPA 4x4
2&1/2 ton Studebaker 6x6
2&1/2 ton GMC 6x6
2&1/2 GMC COE 6x6
Diamond T 6x6
Germany
Ostradschlepper 4x4
Mercedes Benz L4500 A 4x4
Phanomen Granit 1500 A 4x4

I looked at the Road and crosscountry speeds of tracked vehicles in these books.

Chamberlain and Ellis, British and American Tanks of World War II.
Chamberlain and Milsom, Allied Combat Tanks.
Chamberlain and Ellis, Axis Combat Tanks.
Cappellano and Battistelli, Italian medium tanks 1939-45.
Cappellano and Battistelli, Italian light tanks 1919-45.
Chris Bishop Weapons of World War Two.
Milsom Chambrelain German Armoured cars of World War Two.
Jentz and Doyle, Panzer Tracts.

Road and crosscountry speeds are listed in the .xls attachment.
Max speeds are also theoretical I never drive my car at maximum speed.
Your Road speeds are the Maximum speeds. Max speeds are only possible on straight Autobahns.

Panzer Tracts has Maximum speed, Average road speed, and cross country.
Your vehicle road speeds could be changed from Max to Ave?

PzKw I pzjgr 40,25,10-15
PzKw I A 37.5,20,10-12
PzKw I B 40,25,12-15
PzKw I C 79,65,35
PzKw I F 25,18,14
PzKw II D 55,35,20
LaS 762 42,35,20
Marder II (Sf) 40,30,20
Marder 38t 47,35,20
PzKw III E/F/G 40,25,15
PzKw III H 42,20,15
PzKw III J 40,20,15
JagdPanther 45,25,15
Panther D 55,30-35,20
Panther G 46,30-35,20
Moebelwagon/Wirbel 38,25,20
Ostwind 35,25,20
Flakpanzer 38 42,35,20
PzKw I f 25,18,14
Nashorn 40,25,15
JagdPanzer IV F 40,25,15-18
JagdPanzer IV/70 35,25,15-18
JagdPanzer I 40,25,10-15
PanzerJager II 7.62 55,35,18-20
PanzerJager II 7.5 40,30,20
PanzerJager 38 7.62 42,35,20
PanzerJager 38 7.5 47,35,20
PanzerJager Lorr-Schlep 35,20,8
PzKw II A/B 40,25,12-15
Sd.Kfz. 10/4-5 65,45,-
18 ton H/T 8.8cm 50,35,-
Sd.Kfz. 221 80,50,-
Sd.Kfz. 222 A 70,40,-
Sd.Kfz. 223 A 75,45,-
Sd.Kfz. 250 65,30-45,-
Sd.Kfz. 251 50,30,10
Sd.Kfz. 7 50,35,-

Looking at the .xls spreadsheet I see that many of your tracked vehicles crosscountry speeds are different to the book crosscountry speeds by as much as twice or as little as half.

I posted this in mbt by by mistake, my bad.

Re: Cross country speeds
 

As was noted in the MBT forums where you posted this as well...... the speed shown is the max road speed , the actual speed in the game is calculated as the vehicle moves over different terrain and the result depends on what it's move class is so if you have three vehicles all rated the same speed and all are moving over the same terrain and one is tracked, one is A/T wheel and the other just wheel....they willl all move different distances.

As to "Vehicles missing from OObs".......we are NOT adding every last truck used by various armies...there is no point, we've already "over done" truck as it stands now. I would be quite happy to go back to one genereic Heavy truck, one medium truck and one light truck per OOB and save a lot of space. Multitudes of trucks simply clutter up the OOB and uselessly waste slots that are in some OOB's in short supply

And ........"Your vehicle road speeds could be changed from Max to Ave?"........... No------ the speed
values we use are NOT going to change

and finally.. "Bicycles speed 6 off road?, No engine."........ how exactly did you come up with that number ?. On basic green "clear" terrain they move one hex per turn more than foot infantry ( 4 hexes vs 3 ), across a plowed field they move the same speed as foot infantry.

Don

Re: Cross country speeds
 

Kiwi,

At the bottom of this image is a chart showing current movement penalties for various modes of transport:


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...r-guide2.0.png

Cross

Re: Cross country speeds
 

Hahaha man..... that image is about the most useful & informative image I've seen for Steel Panthers!

Should've been included in the Game Guide as an addendum!

Many thanks for that, Cross! :up:

Re: Cross country speeds
 

RightDeve,

You can download the guide here:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=50520


Cheers,

Cross

Re: Cross country speeds
 

I will look at adding this info to the GG

Re: Cross country speeds
 

Many thanks for that! :)

Re: Cross country speeds
 

Actually, several of those "missing vehicles" are present. I wouldn't oppose returning to generic trucks - it would make some things easier. But I believe, that in most countries there should two medium trucks and two light trucks representing 4x4 (or 6x6) troop carriers and ordinary trucks, which constituted a bulk of transport.

There is also other slight problem, hard to overcome in a sensible way. In some OOBs heavy (and medium) trucks are used just as artillery tractors, what usually was not their purpose. On the other hand, a single class "prime mover" has a fault, that all tractors are put in the same class, from light tractors capable to tow only a 37 mm gun to howitzer and AA-gun towing ones... There is also an unclear distinction between light truck and utility vehicle in some cases.

Re: Cross country speeds
 

I am sorry I did not check the bicycle cross country speed, I think it should be walking pace but one more hex is Ok. You could also reasonably make it one less

I have looked in Mobhack and saw that there were two unused movement classes, I thought it might improve the game if one of these classes could be used to seperate out wheeled vehicles into all wheel drive (AWD) from those with undriven axles. And so I provided the list of wheeled vehicles and their number of driven axles. I then thought I should show the missing wheeled vehicles in case the change left gaps in the OObs and the missing vehicles could be used to plug the gaps. I am not saying include them in the game if it isnt neccessary.

Dividing the wheeled class into two would be good because you could replace the single wheeled group with two groups. A largely road bound wheeled group and another wheeled (AWD) group that can safely and speedily traverse rough country.
Many OObs have only a few vehicles with AWD. This will also affect the oobs that rely on Armoured cars that only have two wheeled drive but are presently using them like AWD vehicles.

In the tracked vehicle cross county speeds spreadsheet the Marder I 37L has a crosscountry speed of 6 hex but the book value of 8 kph translates to a hex speed of 3. Tiger 1 has a cross country hex speed of 6 but using the book speed it should be 3. At the other end of the list the Cromwell late has a crosscountry hex speed of 9 but using the book value this should be about 16

Of 150 vehicles listed 12 have a book crosscountry speed that matches yours.

If you can tell me what the kph to hex ratio should be I can tell you what the book crosscountry speeds are in hexs. If I divide book max speed by your max hex speeds then the answer varies from between .8 and 4.3. So it is hard to work out what that ratio should be.

Maybe the unused movement classes in mobhack can be used to put the book cross country speeds into the game?

It looks like one of the main factors affecting cross country speed is the vehicles horsepower versus its weight.

Re: Cross country speeds
 

There are 9 move classes in SP ALL are used. There IS a AWD class - #3 AT Wheel...
See HERE

The other stuff is all in the guides... From Mobhack guide:
also your game speeds are often incorrect... move cost of different troop types over different types of terrain VARIES...

Re: Cross country speeds
 

Cross country speeds are never going to be accurate they are based on the unit class with no modifications for specific units.
Book cross country speeds are also suspect, some may be wrong, Cromwell 16 hexes really.
Its probably much like armour penetration what do the testers class as open ground.
Playing field, steep hill, hard or soft going, fields or rough maybe a small obstacle to climb.
A Tiger drivuing over a rough fields etc wouuld be closer to 3 than 6 hexes.

From Chris my serious offroad budy weight matters makes getting the rest right harder if to heavy. Ground pressure is far more important. Horsepower is not very important torgue is especially if the vehicles heavy.
The most important thing though is probably the drive train & suspension & this is the where you get the big variations.
A Land Rover can still outperform many vehicles once the going gets tough despite being underpowered.
He runs a heavily modified Nissan something wide tyres specialised drivetrain & shocks, motor tuned down to about 320hp from over 500 to produce serious flat torque curve because thats what you need offroad

In game this would just be represented as any 4x4 at the level of this game you cannot take into account the individual aspects of the vehicle like how good the suspension is off road.

Re: Cross country speeds
 

Thanks Scorpio.
In the British OOB
Inconsistencies are these.
These vehicles are class 3 and should be class 2 as they are 4x2 not ATwheeled, 4x4.
Morris LRC (Mk I?)
Humber Utility
LRDG Chevy ATG
LRDG Chevy AA
LRDG Chevy ATR
LRDG Scorpion
Lanchester AC
25mm Portee
2 Pdr Portee
3.7in Portee
I think also 3xMotorcycles

In the German OOB
These vehicles come in 4x2 and 4x4 but there are none in ATWheeled, they only appear in Wheeled. They should appear in class 2 and 3 (I know the OOB is full)
Opel
Buessing-NAG
Munitions LKW
These vehicles are class 3 and should be class 2 as they are 4x2 not ATwheeled, 4x4.
Kubelwagen VB
Schwimmwagen VB
Schwimmwagen
Kubelwagen
I think also Kraftrad, 3xBeiwagenKrad, Kraftradmelder

These vehicles are class 3 and should be class 2 as they are 6x4 not ATwheeled, 6x6.
Armoured Truck
Kfz 69 Protze
PzSPw. L202(h)
SdKfz 232 (6) B
SdKfz 231 (6)

I didnt provide this details originally as I dont know how the different classes are chosen and what they mean, but I have a better idea now I will do the other OObs if someone can confirm that 4x2 and 6x4 should be in class 2?

The Sdkfz 222 (also kubelwagen 4x2) and 231 are both in class 3, but the all wheel drive, all wheel steer 231 would have a much better cross country performance than 222 and kubelwagen. The Sdkfz 250 and 251 are in class 4 but especially the 250 had problems with too much weight on the front axles. They are not as good as fully tracked vehicles. I think sdkfz 231, terrapin, half tracks, the giant wheeled italian cars TL/AS etc and some others would be better put in a class between 3 and 4 in capabilities, if possible :).

As for tracked vehicles cross country speeds I have used the speed in clear non-road for all the vehicles because othewise you cannot compare them. It looks to me that tracked vehicles get half their max speed in clear crosscountry. So I cannot see where my values are incorrect?

Re: Cross country speeds
 

A 6x4 would be AT wheeled ( class 3 ) and there is no.......and will not be "a class between 3 and 4 in capabilities" added

Re: Cross country speeds
 

Morris LRC MK 2 was 4x4 so it's AT wheel and it's not going to change and neither is the way the game calculates movement points , it is, like many things in the game, a generalized abstraction suitable to the scale of the game but cannot recreate text book results for every vehicle ever made......."close enough" is "good enough

Don

Re: Cross country speeds
 

Thank you DRG.
This post is in two parts this is PART 1

This is a list of the vehicles I think need to change movement classes.
Some short explanations and ideas.
In the OOBs almost all the 6x4 trucks are in class 2 wheel. I have complied with that convention here.
I think this is because the undriven front axle has the same liabilities (bogability) whether coupled to one or two driven axles.
This is I think because the extra traction/floatation of the 6x4's extra driven axle is cancelled out by the 6x4 vehicles extra weight.
The 6x4 armoured cars are sometimes in class 3 AT wheel.
As they are almost always an unaltered 6x4 truck chassis with added heavy armoured body,gun,ammo etc I have put them in class 2 wheel also.
So all 4x2 and 6x4 into class 2 wheel, and all 4x4 and 6x6 into class 3 A/T wheel.
If an undriven axle were always treated as a liability, Then half tracks could be moved from class 4 tracked into class 3 A/T wheel.
Three quarter tracks might be an exception to this.
I would make class 2 wheel vehicles off road speed 1/4 max speed.
This is because class 2 vehicles need to avoid soft or rough more often than AWD and so will often need to take a longer path. And I think also travel more carefully (slower) as they stick more easily
I also think class 2 wheel should get stuck more often than class 3 A/T wheel. Maybe this is the happens already?
I would put terrapin and the 8 wheeler ACs into class 4 tracked.
I am not a complete novice in this area, I used to drive a International No.I MkIII, and later the same type Truck in 4x2.
I redid the British and German OOBs, they have additional changes.
I think there must be a reason the LVTs and amphibians are class 0, I included them in this list anyway.
USA GMC or studebaker 6x4 (5 ton) and 6x6 (2&1/2 ton) trucks look identicle. Probably same for GMC also.
Geman Opel and Bussing Nag 4x2 and 4x4 look identicle.

Thailand
SPAA 2pdr (21) Picture is Type 94 SPAA with 20mm T98 gun(23)
20mm Gun Truck (23) Picture is 2 pdr on Morris 15cwt(21) or 15 cwt GS Bedford
Light Truck 4x4 (415) is (15 cwt GS Bedford) start date is 30 should be about 37.
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked.
Type 94 Ho-Go (3)
Ford M1917 LT (6)
Carden Loyd 34 (8)
Carden Loyd 36 (9)
Type 95 Ha-Go (11)
Type 89 Yi-Go (12)
Type 97 Chi-Ha (13)
Type 2 Ka-Mi (16)
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 0 default and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Amphib Truck (Toyota Su-Ki) (141)
These vehicles are 6x6. They are class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Ammo Truck (230) (REO M35) start date is 44 should be 49. Replace with Isuzu Type 94 6x4 1937 69 kph (already in OOB).
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Bedford (270) (Bedford QL)
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
Nissan OP (238)
20mm Gun Truck (23) Picture is 2 pdr on Morris 15cwt or 15 cwt GS Bedford
I think motorcycles (104,105,106,107,108)
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
Vickers-Morris (25)
Type 92 Osaka (27)

Romania
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked.
T-38 (61)
T-60 (62)
Pzkpfw BT-7(r) (63)
T-28 (68)
JPz38(t) Hetzer (75)
Maresal M-05 (77)
These vehicles are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
I think M/C Squad (117,118,119,126)
These vehicles come in 4x2 and 4x4 but there are none in class 3 ATWheeled, they only appear in class 2 Wheeled. They could appear in class 3 A/T wheel
M.A.N (256) (MAN ML4500)
Buessing-NAG (207)
Opel Blitz (208)
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
OA vz 27 (322)
Ehrhardt E-V/4 (318)
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
Tatra 57 (222)
Kubelwagen (221)
Skoda (215)
Ford Lt Truck (209)
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
BA-6 (324)
BA_10 (325)
Praga AV (216)
ADGR (214)
Steyr 440 (217)
Steyr 640 (210,357)

Hungary
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked.
T-37A (176)
T-38 (178)
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
39M Ford-Marmon (20)
These vehicles come in 4x2 and 4x4 but there are none in class 3 ATWheeled, they only appear in class 2 Wheeled. They could appear in class 3 A/T wheel
Opel Blitz (21)
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
Tatra T-72 (320)
Loszeres Szeker (231) (Ford 1 ton Model AA?)
Protze Scout (46)
These are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
I think Motorkerekp Raj (86) and Motorkerekp Gpu (87)

Czechoslovakia
These vehicles are 4x4 they are in class 0 default and should be class 3 A/T wheel
AOP Light Truck (17) (Dodge 3/4ton WC 51) maybe start date of 11 43 should be when occupation ends April 45? or replace with tatra 13 or 23, both 4x2?
BA-64 (260)
These vehicles are 6x6. They are class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Ammo Truck (148) (REO M35) start date is 43 should be 49. Replace with 6x4 Tatra 85, already in OOB or with with Tatra 84 6x6
1&1/2 Ton Truck (143) (USA Dodge wc63) Starts 11 43 maybe should start after occupation ends April 45? or replace with Tatra 84 6x6 or tatra 85 6x4 (already in OOB)
These vehicles are 6x6 or 6x4. They are class 2 wheel and can be class 3 A/T wheel.
2&1/2 Ton Truck (144) (Picture is USA GMC or studebaker) Starts 11 43 maybe should start after occupation ends April 45? or replace with Tatra 84 6x6 or tatra 85 6x4 (already in OOB)
Heavy Truck (146) (Picture is USA GMC or studebaker) Starts 11 43 maybe should start after occupation ends April 45? Czechoslovakia has many 6x6 trucks look at
http://www.autogallery.org.ru/m/tatrag.htm
BM-13 Katyusha (180) (USA studebaker US6?) Starts 11 43 maybe should start after occupation ends about April 45?
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
tatra AOP (142)
OA vz 30 (51)
Praga AV (139)
These are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
I think Motorcycles (106,305)

Sweden
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked.
Sav m/43 75 (12)
Sav m/43 105 (13)
Pvkv m/43 (14)
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 2 wheel. (4x2)
PB m/31-F (26)
I think M/C MG Squad (109) M/C Patrol (152) Motorcycle Sqd (108)
These vehicles come in 4x2 and 4x4 but there are none in class 3 ATWheeled, they only appear in class 2 Wheeled. They could appear in class 3A/T wheel
Heavy Truck (111) (Buessing Nag)
Munitions Truck (230) (Buessing Nag)
These vehicles are 6x6 or 6x4. They are class 2 wheel and can be class 3 A/T wheel.
3 Ton Truck (Picture is USA GMC or studebaker) start date is 30 should be mid 41. Replace with Opel Blitze?
These vehicles are 6x6. They are class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
1&1/2 Ton Truck (110) (Dodge wc63) Start date for this vehicle is 1/30 should be mid 41, replace with Ford Lt Truck 4x2? 209 in romanian OOB
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Civilian car (142 )(Volvo TPV m/43)
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
PB m/41 (24) (Landsverk?)

Finland
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked.
T-50E (13)
T-38 (109,159)
StuG M40G (135)
75mm M40 AT-Gun (136) is class 1 leg?
These vehicles come in 4x2 and 4x4 but there are none in class 3 ATWheeled, they only appear in class 2 Wheeled. They could appear in class 3 A/T wheel
Ammo truck (227,230) (Opel Blitz)
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
Landsverk 182 (110,117)
BA-6 (25)
BA-10 (26)
BA-3 (111)
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
Kubelwagen OP (34)

Italy
These vehicles are 4x4 they are class 0 default and should be class 2 wheel.
Fiat 621 (148)
I think Ricerca MC (277,280), MotoGuzzi (MG) (229,278,279,281,282), Guzzi Trialce (515)
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked.
Carro H-35i (349)
Carro IVh (433)
Breda 61 (474)
Fiat 3000 L5/21 (513,532)
Fiat 3000 L5/30 (514,533)
M14 Sgombratore (530)
M4 Mine Flail (612)
These vehicles are 6x6 or 6x4. They can be class 2 wheel or class 3 A/T wheel.
Heavy Truck (745) (Picture is USA GMC or studebaker) replace with SPA 35 Dovunque 6x4 or SPA 41 Dovunque both already in OOB
These vehicles are 6x6. They are class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
SPA 41 Dovunque (399) start date is 46, should be 43.
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Autocannone 20 (11)
Autocannone 47 (477)
SPA 35 AS-47 (485)
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
Fiat 508CM (423)
Alfa Romeo 2500 (411,648) 648 is APC class?
Fiat 508CM OA (401)
Lancia IZ (65)
Lancia IZM (66)
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
Fiat 611 (picture has only 2 axles?)
Fiat 611 37/40 (picture has only 2 axles?)

Nationalist Spain
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked.
CL PzKpfw IB (92)
CL de Inf M17m (93)
CL de Inf M17c (94)
These vehicles are 4x2 they are class 0 default and should be class 2 wheel.
Recon Avanzado (234)
PzKfpw I/20 (291)
Trubria M 34 A4 (292)
Trubria M 36 (293)
CCI Tipo 1937 (294)
CM Rapido BT-5 (297,300)
Verdeja I (301)
CL de Inf Pz IA (302)
CL de Inf Pz IB (303)
CCI Tipo 1937 (304)
PzKpfw IVh (305)
PzKpfw IA (381)
CTV CV-33 (411)
CTV CV-35 (412)
CTV CV-35LF (413)
CV-35 (414)
These vehicles come in 4x2 and 4x4 but there are none in class 3 ATWheeled, they only appear in class 2 Wheeled. They could appear in class 2 and 3
Opel Azul (25,175) one is size 3 one is size 4
Opel (308)
Buessing-Azul (26) (Buessing Nag)
Carro Municion (230) (Buessing Nag)
These are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
I think Motocicleta (233) CTV MotoRicerca (445) CTV MotoGuzzi (446) CTV MotoGuzziMP (447)
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
CB Modelo 39 (290)
CB BA-6 (289)
Kfz 231-6 Azul (16)
SdKfz 232 (6) B (30)
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
Lancia IZM (416)
Lancia IZ (415)
CTV Lancia IZ (409)
Lancia IZM (410)
Motor Iberica? (estblished 1954?) (Hispano-Suiza?) (19)
Kuebelwagn Azul (21)
Schwmmwgn Azul (22)
Kblwgn OA Azul (27)
Shwmwgn OA Azul (28)

Spanish Republic
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked.
Negrillo Pz Ia (204)
Negrillo Pz Ib (205)
Negrillo PzI/20 (206)
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Carro Camion (224)
CB Protegido (449) (Cami�n Protegido No 1 or Nash-Quad Armored Car)
These are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
I think Motocicleta (200) Motor Iberica (201)
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
CB Valencia (UNL-35 chassis?) (450)
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
CB Modelo 37a (AAC-1937?) (455)
CB Modelo 37b (AAC-1937?) (456)
CB BA-6 (458)
CB BA-3 (457)

Greece
Fiat SPA 35 (picture is Fiat spa cl39)
These vehicles are class 0/3 default/A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
I think MC Scouts, ELAS Motorcycle (55,56,57,58,59,60,485)
These vehicles are 6x6. They are class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Mercedes LG65/3 (Wrong picture) (94)
Ammo Truck (232) (REO M35) start date is 43 should be 49. Replace with Mercedes LG65/3 6x6, already in OOB, has wrong picture.
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Chevy Med Truck (16) (is it meant to be Chevy 15 cwt C15A? or picture wrong?) (Picture is USA GMC or studebaker 6x4 or 6x6)
Chevy Heavy truck (17) (is it meant to be Heavy Utility C8A? or picture wrong?) (Picture is USA GMC or studebaker 6x4 or 6x6)
Chevy GWS 15cwt (85,87)
This vehicle is Halftrack. It is class 2 wheel and should be class 4 Track.
20mm SPAA (476)
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
SdKfz 69 Protze (84)
Morris 15cwt (129)
Chevy AA LRDG (385)
Chevy AT LRDG (386)
BR 2 Pdr Portee (503)

Canada
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked.
Arm'd Bulldozer (314)
Buffalo II (289)
Renault M1917 (278)
Renault M1917A1 (277)
Priest Kangaroo (195)
Buffalo IV (154)
Wasp Mk2C (128)
LVT-4 Amtrac (58)
Grizzly I (14)
Ram II (17)
Skink AA (18)
Ram I (19)
Churchill I (33)
Churchill III (34)
Churchill AVRE (37)
Crocodile (38)
Scorpion (39)
Ram Badger (42)
Priest (46)
Sexton (47)
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 0 default and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Staghound + Rkt (350,351)
Staghound (50)
DUKW (57)
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Medium truck (Austin K5) (54)
These vehicles are 6x6. They are class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Heavy truck (Mack NO) (55) start date is 30 should be 43. Replace with AEC Marshal 3 ton 6x4 1936-40 or Scammel r100 6x4 1937-1946 18 mph max speed, Austin K3 3 ton 1939 6x4
Ammo truck (230) (Mack NO) start date is 30 should be 43. Replace with AEC Marshal 3 ton 6x4 1936-40 or Scammel r100 6x4 1937-1946 18 mph max speed, Austin K3 3 ton 1939 6x4
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
1935 Ford/GM AC (7)
This vehicles is 4x2 or 4x4 It is class 3 A/T wheel and can be class 2 wheel.
light truck (Ford F15?) (129)
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
light truck (Ford F15 or CMP truck) (129)
I think 3xMotorcycles (312)
This vehicle is 6x6. It is in class 3 A/T wheel.
6 Ton Truck (Mack NO) start date is 30 should be 43. Replace with AEC Marshal 3 ton 6x4 1936-40 or Scammel r100 6x4 1937-1946 18 mph max speed, Austin K3 3 ton 1939 6x4

Norway
Dodge WC53 (151) (picture is WC51/52)
(39) bicycle squad is class 2 should be class 0?
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 0 default and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Daimler A/C (44)
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked.
BR Carrier AOP
These vehicles are 6x6. They are class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Chevrolet 3t (152)
These are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
I think POL Motorcycle (97)

Netherlands
DAF trucks (13,14,152) picture are wrong look at
http://www.autogallery.org.ru/gdaf.htm
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked.
LVT-4 Amtrac (330)
VCL M1931 Amph (311)
Vickers LT 6B (309)
MHarrington 4TA (308)
Carden Loyd 36 (307)
KNIL Bulldozer (292)
Sexton (209)
Ram Kangaroo (207)
M3A2 Halftrack (38)
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 0 default and should be class 2 wheeled.
Panserwagn M38 (53)
Pnsrwgn M38 Com (54)
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 0 default and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Canal Truck (328,329) (Toyota Su-Ki?)
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Ammo Car (229)
Chevy Med Truck (146) is it meant to be Chevrolet G506 or picture wrong?) (Picture is USA GMC or studebaker 6x4 or 6x6)
Staff Car (Body Type 3) (161)
Bedford Hvy Trk (147) (Bedford 3 ton)
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
Alvis Strausler (325)
Overvalwagen I (323)
Overvalwagen II (324)
Rolls Royce A/C (80)
M39 Van Doorne (Pantserwagen M39?) (10,55)
Panserwagn M36 Pantserwagen M36 (8)
Panserwagn M38 Pantserwagen M38 (9)
I think Motorcycle (84,132,78)
These vehicles are 6x6. They are class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Ammo Truck (230) (REO M35) start date is 44 should be 49. Replace with DAF trado II/III, 1938 6x4. They are in OOB already as DAF med truck and DAF heavy truck (pictures are for USA GMC or studebaker 6x4 or 6x6 though).

Belgium
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked.
M3/M5 Halftrack (263)
Churchill AVRE (262)
Bulldozer (261)
Churchill IV (252)
FT-17M (200)
FT-17C (201)
Carrier 3in Mor (73)
M15A1 (53)
T.13 B3 (10)
T.13 B1/B2 (214)
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 0 default and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Heavy truck (98) (GMC CCKW 2.5t Truck)
AEC Mk II (91)
AEC Mk III (92)
Daimler A/C (62)
Humber Mk.II (12)
Daimler A/C (13)
GMC 2.5t Truck (17) (start date 30 should be 41) and should be after occupation finishes? (about October 44)
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Bedford (Bedford 3 ton)
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
AOP Field Car (Ford Model BB) (240)
Ford 1ton Truck (219) (Model AA)
Morris 15cwt (95) picture is 15 cwt GS Bedford
1.5 Ton Truck (67) Citroen (U23?)
I think FN Tricar (203)
I think FN AA Tricar (204) Motorcycle Sec (208)k Motorcycle Sec (209)
This vehicles are 6x6 and class 3 A/T wheel
Ammo Truck (229) (REO M35) start date is 30 should be 49. Replace with Brossel TAL? (Their Heavy artillery tractor or Bedford 3 ton (in OOB already))

Re: Cross country speeds
 

PART 2

Nationalist China
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 0 default and should be class 2 wheel.
Medium Truck (Zis 5?, Ford truck?) (14,135,138)
These vehicles can be 4x2 or 4x4. They are class 2 wheel and can be class 3 A/T Wheel
Heavy Truck (Buessing-NAG) (15)
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 3 A/T Wheel and should be class 2 Wheel.
BA_10
BA-6
Armrd Truck /Gn (Kfz 70 Protze)
Armrd Truck /MG? (Kfz 70 Protze) (266)
K 69 Utility (Kfz 70 Protze) (38,41)
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T Wheel and should be class 2 Wheel.
light truck (15 cwt GS Bedford?) (801)
BA-20 (273)
Lancia IZM (267)
I think Motorcycle (255) Motorcycle MG (256)

Yugoslavia
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked.
Stuart SPG (23)
BT-7 (140)
Somua S-35 (280)
H-39 (281)
PzKw I (303)
These vehicles can be 4x2 or 4x4. They are class 2 wheel and can be class 3 A/T Wheel
Opel (13)

These vehicles are 6x4 or 6x6. They are class 2 wheel and can be class 3 A/T Wheel
Heavy Truck (Picture is USA GMC or studebaker) start date is 1/44 should it be 10/44 when soviets liberated belgrade?
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T Wheel and should be class 2 Wheel.
Armoured Truck (Fiat 626?) (457)
I think Motorcycle MG (262)
AEC Mk II (100) is light tank class (12) should be Heavy AC class (108)?

Bulgaria
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 0 default and should be class 3 A/T Wheel.
SdKfz 222 (47)
SdKfz 223 (Fu) (53)
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T Wheel
MB L4500 (42)
These vehicles are 6x6 or 6x4. They are class 2 wheel and can be class 3 A/T Wheel
2&1/2 Ton Truck (USA GMC or studebaker)
These vehicles can be 4x2 or 4x4. They are class 2 wheel and can be class 3 A/T Wheel
OpelBlitz (60)
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 3 A/T Wheel and should be class 2 Wheel.
Steyr 640
Praga AV
Krupp Protze (48)
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T Wheel and should be class 2 Wheel.
Ford Lt Truck
Citroen T23
Kubelwagen (52)
Kubelwagen OP (54)
Skoda (55)
I think Motorcycle squad (66,67,70,71,101,102)

India
These vehicles are 6x6 they are class 0 default and should be class 3 A/T Wheel.
DUKW (57)
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked.
Buffalo IV (58)
Wasp (128)
Arm'd Bulldozer (380)
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T Wheel.
Bedford (Bedford QL) (55)
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 Wheel.
Morris 15cwt (129) picture is 15 cwt GS Bedford
Humber Utility (265)
2 Pdr Portee (430)

Germany
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked.
PzKw I B (1)
Minenraum IV H (135)
These vehicles come in 4x2 and 4x4 but there are none in class 3 ATWheeled, they only appear in class 2 Wheeled. They can appear in class 2 and 3 (I know the OOB is full)
Opel (80)
Buessing-NAG (81)
Munitions LKW (Buessing-NAG) (230)
These vehicles are 4x2 They are class 3 and should be class 2 wheeled.
Kubelwagen VB (173)
Schwimmwagen VB (174)
Schwimmwagen (183)
Kubelwagen (195)
I think also Kraftrad (109,511,512,805,806,896), 3xBeiwagenKrad (949), Kraftradmelder (981)
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 3 and should be class 2 wheel
PsW 203(r)
Steyr ADGZ
Armoured Truck (983)
Kfz 69 Protze (453)
Kfz 70 Protze (155)
PzSPw. L202(h) (541)
SdKfz 232 (6) B (176)
SdKfz 231 (6) (70,392,833) (833 is a light armoured car class, should be heavy armoured car class?)

Australia/New Zealand
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 track
Mk IIa (1)
50cal Halftrack (53)
Buffalo IV (58)
Wasp (128)
Arm'd Bulldozer (177)
These vehicles are 6x6 They are class 0 default and should be class 3 A/T wheel
DUKW (57)
These vehicles are 4x4 They are class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T wheel
Heavy Truck (Austin K5) (55)
Ford Dingo (115,149)
This vehicle is 6x6. It is class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T wheel
Ammo lorry (229) (Mack NO) (Start date of 30 should be 43) Replace with AEC Marshal 3 ton 6x4 1936-40 or Scammel r100 6x4 1937-1946 18 mph max speed, Austin K3 3 ton 1939 6x4
These vehicles are 4x2. they are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel
Morris 15cwt (125,129,152)
2 Pdr Portee (Morris 15 cwt or 15 cwt GS Bedford) (206,231)
47mm Portee (Morris 15 cwt or 15 cwt GS Bedford) (207)

Chinese communists
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 0 default and should be class 2 wheel
Medium Truck (135)
These vehicles are 4x2 or 4x4. They are class 2 Wheel and can also be class 3 A/T wheel
Heavy Truck (15) (Buessing Nag)
These vehicles are 4x2 they are class 3 Wheel and should be class 2 wheel
Light Truck (12) (Ford, ZIS 5?)
light truck (744) (15 cwt GS Bedford)
I think Motorcycle MotorcycleMG (255,256)
Lancia IZM (267)
BA-20 (273)
These vehicles are 6x4 They are class 3 Wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
BA-6 (275)
BA-10 (274)
K 69 Utility (Kfz 70 Protze) (38,41)
K 69 AOP (64)
Armrd Truck /Gn (Kfz 70 Protze) (266)
Armrd Truck /MG? (Kfz 70 Protze) (272)

USMC
Studebaker 6x4 (5 ton) and 6x6 (2&1/2 ton) trucks look identicle. Probably same for GMC also.
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked
LVT(A) 1 (423,021)
LVT 2 (301,16)
LVT 2(A) (288,017)
LVT(A) 4 (022)
LVT 4 (19)
LVT 1 (111,300)
LVT 1(AC) (299)
LVT 3 (113)
LVT(A) 4b (114)
LVT 4 Flame (206)
LVT(A) 5 (207)
LVT(A) 4 Flame (210)
Arm'd Bulldozer (231)
M1917A1 263
LVT 1 FO (378)
LVT(A) 2 FO (382,379)
These vehicles are 6x6 or 6x4. They are class 0 default and can be class 2 wheel or class 3 A/T Wheel
2&1/2 w/AAMG (374) (Start date is 1930 should be mid 41)
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T Wheel and should be class 2 wheel
1&1/2 Ton Truck (37) (Studebaker)
1&1/2 Ton Truck (372) (Chevrolet)

USA
Studebaker 6x4 (5 ton) and 6x6 (2&1/2 ton) trucks look identicle. Probably same for GMC also.
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked
M4 Flail (14)
M8 HMC (19)
T28E1 MGMC (24)
M16 MGMC (25)
M19 Duster (26)
LVT 4 (29)
T1E3 MineRoller (52)
M15 MGMC (64)
M15A1 MGMC (65)
60mm Mor H/T (67)
M1917 (107)
M1917A1 (108)
M4 AOP (142)
M3A3 (242)
M3A5 (243)
M3A5 CS (256)
LVT(A) 1 (318)
M-H T16 (340)
Arm'd Bulldozer (379)
LVT 1 (AC) (552,553)
LVT 2 (554)
LVT(A) 2 (555)
LVT(A) 4 (720)
These vehicles are 6x6 or 6x4. They are class 0 default and can be class 2 wheel or class 3 A/T Wheel
2&1/2 w/AAMG (170) (Start date is 1930 should be mid 41)
2&1/2 Ton Truck (38) (Start date is 1930 should be mid 41)
These vehicles are 6x6. They are class 0 default and should be class 3 A/T wheel
M8 Greyhound (28)
DUKW (31)
These vehicles are 4x2. they are class 0 default and should be class 2 wheel
1/2 Ton Truck (370) (kc-1)
Truck AOP (374) (kc-1?)
Chevy Car (371)
These vehicles are 6x6 or 6x4. They are class 2 Wheeled and should be class 3 A/T wheel
Heavy Truck (399,221) (Picture is USA GMC or studebaker or maybe REO 2&1/2 ton prototype) (Start date is 1930/35 should be mid 41)
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T Wheel and should be class 2 wheel
1&1/2 Ton Truck (37) (Studebaker)
1&1/2 Ton Truck (372) (Chevrolet)
I think motorcycle (223), motorcycle squad (222)

Soviet Union
Studebaker 6x4 (5 ton) and 6x6 (2&1/2 ton) trucks look identicle. Probably same for GMC also.
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked
T-40 (6,368)
T-44/100 (127)
MS-1/T-18 (170,171)
T-18m (177)
T-50 (182,519)
T-80 (293,527)
T-44 (294)
LT Mk VII (309)
T-40S (369,328)
T-38 (334)
T-30 (335)
T-50E (516)
T-50-57 (731)
These vehicles are 6x6. They are class 0 default and should be class 3 A/T wheel
DUKW (93)
These vehicles are 6x6. They are class 2 Wheeled and should be class 3 A/T wheel
AOP Light Truck (134) (Dodge wc63) Start date for this vehicle is 1/30 should be mid 41 (Change picture to Gaz or Zis 4x2 and leave in class 2?)
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 2 Wheeled and should be class 3 A/T wheel
BA-27 (364)
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 3 A/T Wheel and should be class 2 wheel
BA-10 (41)
BA-3 (310)
BA-6 (311)
SU-1-12 (623, 643) (on gaz or zis truck)
These vehicles are class 3 A/T Wheel and should be class 2 wheel I think
Motorcycles (305,306) 3xMotorcycles (754,755)

Vichy France
These vehicles are 4x2. they are class 3 and should be class 2 wheel.
AMD 80 (197)
Laffly 80 AM (408)
Laffly 50 AM (391)
Citroen (67)
Panhard 165/175 (393)
I think Sec Motocyclist (39,161,178,187,365,366,367,368,369,450,451)
These vehicles are 6x6. they are class 2 and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Camion Munition (230) (REO M35) start date is 44 should be 49. (Change to Laffly S35T? 6x6 or Buessing Nag 4x4?)
Light Truck (251) (Dodge WC63) (Change to Laffly S20T? 6x6)
Veh Observation (66) (Dodge WC63) (Change to Laffly S20T? 6x6)

France
These are class 0 default should be class 4 track
M3 75mm GMC (132)
M4 81mm MMC (133)
60mm Mor H/T (134)
Buffalo IV (166)
M15A1 AAMC (293)
M12 155mm GMC (297)
Obusier M8 HMC (298)
Lloyd Carrier (341)
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 and should be class 2 wheel.
Citroen (67) (U23?)
Conus Gun (413) (Morris 15 cwt or 15 cwt GS Bedford)
These vehicles are 4x4. they are class 2 and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
3-Ton Lorry (350) (Austin K5)

Japan
These vehicles are 6x4. they are class 0 default should be class 2 wheeled.
Chiyoda A/C (23)
Type 91 So-Mo (298)
Type 92 SNLF (22)
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 0 default and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Toyota Su-Ki (109)
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 and should be class 2 wheel.
Overvalwagen (335) (there is a possibility a few may have been 4x4)
Nissan 180 (25) (Introduced 1941 not 1930)
I think also Motorcycles (93,440) and Sanrinsha (439)

Italian social republic
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
Alfa Romeo 2500 (411, 648)
Fiat 508C OA (401)
Lancia 3Ro APC (67)
I think also Motoguzzi (281) Motoguzzi(MG) (282), Guzzi Trasporto (515)
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
Semovente CA 20 (11) (Fiat Dovunque 33)
Dovunque35 Prot (361) (Fiat Dovunque 33)

Manchukuo
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
Nissan 180 (25)
I think also Motorcycles (93,440)

Slovac Republic
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel
Tatra 57 AOP (143)
I think Motorcycles (305)
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
OA vz 30 (51)
Praga AV (139)
Tatra Truck AOP (142)

LWP
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 0 default and are should be class 2 wheel.
I think motorcycles (112)
This vehicle is 6x6 or 6x4. It is class 0 default and can be class 2 wheel or class 3 A/T wheel.
Studebaker (180) (Picture is USA GMC or studebaker)

Poland
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 0 default and should be class 2 wheel.
15cwt Lt Truck (373) picture is 15 cwt GS Bedford
30cwt GS Truck (374)
Berliet CBA (829)
Chevrolet 157 (376)
Rolls-Royce A/C (479)
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 0 default should be class 3 A/T Wheel
3 Ton GS Truck (382)
Staghound AA (184)
Humber Mk.II (478)
These vehicles are 6x6. They are class 0 default should be class 3 A/T Wheel
6 Ton GS Truck (383) (Mack NO) (Start date of 40 should be 43 or maybe replace with Praga RV already in OOB)
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked
75mm SP Autocar (166)
Renault FT-17 (887)
Renault FT (456)
Renault FT 37mm (457)
Arm'd Bulldozer (489)
Halftrack SPM (136)
Hotchkiss H-39 (477)
wasp (33)
buffalo IV (114)
Light Truck AOP (123), picture is dodge wc63 (6x6). Start date is 30 should be 43. Or replace with Laffly V15T (4x4) already in OOB.
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T Wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
15cwt GS Truck (381) (15 cwt GS Bedford)
30cwt GS Truck (374) Picture is kc-1 should it be Austin K30?
Wz.34 (570)
Wz.34 II (572)
Wz.34 (37mm) (575)
Wz.34 II (37mm) (577)
Humber Utility (363)
Polski Fiat 508 (368)
I think also Motorcycle (270)
This vehicle is 4x4. It is class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Ehrhardt M.17 (684) (however suspension, wheelbase, wheelsize etc probably sets it into class 2)

Great Britian
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked.
Avenger
Black Prince (190)
Churchill III (664,153)
Churchill Na75 (227,228)
Churchill VI (229)
M22 Locust (297)
Churchill II CS (171)
M3 SP 75mm (188,199,200)
Mk VIb (298)
Churchill Ics2 (663)
DUKW (57)
Buffalo IV (58,306,)
Wasp (128,560)
Arm'd Bulldozer (299)
Priest Kangaroo (406)
Buffalo II (710)
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 and should be class 2 wheel.
Morris LRC (Mk I) (558) (MkII is 4x4!)
Humber Utility (285)
LRDG Chevy ATG (252)
LRDG Chevy AA (241)
LRDG Chevy ATR (242)
LRDG Scorpion (706)
Lanchester AC (130)
25mm Portee (216) (Morris 15cwt(21) or 15 cwt GS Bedford)
2 Pdr Portee (217) (Morris 15cwt(21) or 15 cwt GS Bedford)
3.7in Portee! (592) (Morris 15cwt or 15 cwt GS Bedford) (37mm?) (292) picture looks like 37mm.
I think also 3xMotorcycles (690)
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 2 but should be class 3 A/T wheel.
C9/B 40mm SPAA (387) (On Morris C8)
Medium lorry (Austin K5) (54)
Bedford (Bedford QL) (294)
These vehicles are 6x6. They are class 2 but should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Ammo lorry (230) (Mack NO) (Start date of 30 should be 43) Replace with AEC Marshal 3 ton 6x4 1936-40 or Scammel r100 6x4 1937-1946 18 mph max speed, Austin K3 3 ton 1939 6x4

Re: Cross country speeds
 

It's too bad you didn't ask what class 0 default means in relation to unitclasses BEFORE you created these two lists.

I used this section of the Canadian list as an example......every one of those class 0 default units ARE TRACKED BY DEFAULT..... changing them and most of the others you have on that endless list to class 4 tracked would be a complete waste of my time as NOTHING would change to the way they move in the game as the "default" movement for the unitclasses is set in code, the ONLY reason to enter a value other than default would be to override the default and that snippet of tracked vehicles in the Canadian OOB you want me to change to class 4 tracked are already being treated as tracked BY DEFAULT

any "tank" class is tracked BY DEFAULT
so.......
light tanks are tracked BY DEFAULT
tankettes are tracked BY DEFAULT
Engineering tanks are tracked BY DEFAULT
etc
etc
etc..............


therefore for those unit classes and other " tanky" classes class 0 default = class 4 tracked

The reason there are tanks classed as 4 when others are classed as 0 is because early on the OOB's were done by various people many of whom didn't understand the way the game handles class 0 default either and went with the "safe" class 4 ........sometimes I've made things class 4 tracked when they could have been class 0 default .. " just because"..... just because I know it doesn't matter and either way gets what I want

another good example of not understanding how the game works and creating work for no reason

for those vehicles in those unitclasses class 0 default IS class 2 wheel.

The ONLY things on these list worth considering are the handful of trucks classed as 2WD that should be AWD and vise versa BUT..... I have no desire or time to wade through all the assumptions you have made regarding class 0 default in those two lists so you have created a huge amount of work for yourself because you didn't think to ask what class 0 default represents in the game


Don

Re: Cross country speeds
 

The Humber ‘Box’ Heavy Utility was well known and widely used as the only British 4x4 utility vehicle; it was a forerunner of the modern SUV.

This vehicle had a road speed of 101Kmh. It had the same powerful engine as the Snipe.

Here's some info:

The most important Humber apart from the Snipe was the 4x4 heavy utility. This was a remarkable vehicle, being the only four-wheel-drive machine of its size made in Britain at the time. It was intended for the same type of work as the Ford WOT2 being able to transport staff officers at high speed (maximum 63 mph) over good roads and at the same time to keep going were roads non-existent, on sand or deep mud.

Page 12, G.N. Georgano, World War Two Military Vehicles Transport and Halftracks, Osprey Automotive 1994


Cross

Re: Cross country speeds
 

I thought the LRDG vehicles had been given 4WD status because they were adapted and stripped down for cross-country desert operations. They all had sand ramps as standard equipment. I recall reading that they had better desert cross-country ability than many 4WD vehicles, but I'd have to search for that reference.

I believe the Kubelwagen and a few other vehicles - like Motorcycles - were also given 4WD status because of their cross-country reputation.


Cross

Re: Cross country speeds
 

Here's some images of the Humber Utility:


Humber Box (4WD, 101Kmh, prod: 6,500)
http://dc525.4shared.com/img/uNEhd0WR/HumberBox.bmp

Humber Box (desert)
http://dc494.4shared.com/img/3QkuU_J...oxdesertxp.bmp

It came in soft-top and hard-top versions:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ge%29_pic2.JPG


Cross

Re: Cross country speeds
 

You are correct.

Don

Re: Cross country speeds
 

There is the famous case of the LRDG sand chanelling up a main road in Cairo for a joke...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yxnyvcfiho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFwR1m9X5XU

Re: Cross country speeds
 

LRDG Unit and formation end dates revised per info in that video

Re: Cross country speeds
 

I have redone the cross country spreadsheet. It now contains Max speeds and Cross Country speeds in hexes and is attached to this post.
The new attached updated spreadsheet lists each of the book vehicles in every OOB they appear in. In this post is limited data for just a few OObs for example.
I have only listed vehices that appear in my books. The list could be easily expanded by using the internet.
I think the vehicles Max hex speed should be one third of real speed? It often isnt. This discrepency is listed in the spreadsheet as the ratio, Book Max Speed/Game Max Speed.
Light weight versions of some vehicles are often faster in your data than the origional. This is usually not right because the gearing is unchanged. Kangaroo is an eample of this, these are corrected in the sreadsheet according to the book values.
Unlisted SP guns using listed tank chassis probably have similar values to original tank chassis values, like stug, ISU etc.
USA unit 001 Combt car M1 has book cross country speed of 15-20 I used 18.
Yugoslavia unit 100 AEC Mk II is class light tank should be heavy AC?
Slovac Republic unit 32 PzKw IIc is class armoured car should be tank?
Spain unit 417 CV-35 is class armoured car should be light tankette?
BT tanks are exceptional. Power to weight ratio is 36.5 (T34 is 19). Difficult to see if book quoted Max speeds are for tracks on or off, probably off.
Several tanks have different speeds according to which OOB they are in. Mainly small OOBs like Greece Spanish. These are corrected in the sreadsheet.

From my previous post, the LRDG do have sand ramps but these dont count because they are only used after being bogged?
The only modifications these vehicles had were desert tyres and the doors and roof removed.
LRDG is still very heavy, 1.361 kg and a long wheelbase, 134" compared to a kubelwagon 715 kg, wheelbase 94" which also has desert tyres, but also a flat bottom and the motor over the drive wheels, not over the undriven axel as in the LDGR.

Nation Vehicle Book Game Book Game
Road Road RoughRough
SpeedSpeedDiffSpeedSpeedDiff
Hex Hex Hex Hex Hex Hex
France AMC 34 YR 13 13 0 10 6 4
France AMC 35 13 13 0 10 6 4
France AMR 33 VM 18 18 0 10 9 1
France AMR-35 20 20 0 10 10 0
France Char B 11 9 2 5 4 1
France Char B bis 9 8 1 5 4 1
France Char B ter 9 10 1 5 5 0
France FCM 2C/bis 4 6 2 2 3 1
France FCM 36 8 8 0 4 4 0
France FT-17 3 6 3 2 3 1
France H-35 9 11 2 4 5 1
France H-39 12 12 0 5 6 1
France R-35 6 8 2 4 4 0
France R-40 7 8 1 4 4 0
France Renault 40 7 8 1 4 4 0
France Renault D1 6 6 0 3 3 0
France Renault D2 8 8 0 5 4 1
France Somua S-35 16 14 2 7 7 0
Germany Flakpanzer 38 14 14 0 6 7 1
Germany Jagdpanther 15 15 0 5 7 2
Germany Jagdtiger 11 12 1 4 6 2
Germany JPz IV/48 F/1&213 13 0 5 6 1
Germany JPz IV/70V 12 12 0 5 6 1
Germany Kfz 70 Protze 23 20 3 11 10 1
Germany Las 762 18 13 5 6 6 0
Germany Marder I 37L 12 12 0 2 6 4
Germany Marder I 39H 12 12 0 2 6 4
Germany Marder II 13 14 1 6 7 1
Germany Marder III H 16 13 3 6 6 0
Germany Marder III M 16 14 2 6 7 1
Germany Moebelwagen 13 14 1 6 7 1
Germany Nashorn 13 13 0 5 6 1
Germany Ostwind 12 13 1 6 6 0
Germany Panther 15 17 2 10 8 2
Germany Panzerjager I 10 14 4 3 7 4
Germany Hetzer 14 13 1 5 6 1
Germany PzKpfw 38t 14 14 0 5 7 2
Germany PzKpfw I A 12 13 1 4 6 2
Germany PzKpfw I B 13 13 0 4 6 2
Germany PzKpfw I C 22 26 4 11 13 2
Germany PzKpfw I F 8 9 1 4 4 0
Germany PzKpfw II A/B/C13 14 1 6 7 1
Germany PzKpfw II D 18 17 1 6 8 2
Germany PzKpfw II E/F 18 14 4 6 7 1
Germany PzKpfw II Luchs20 18 2 15 9 6
Germany Pz III E/F/G 13 14 1 5 7 2
Germany PzKpfw III H 13 13 0 5 6 1
Germany Pz III J/L/N 13 13 0 6 6 0
Germany PzKpfw IV B 13 13 0 6 6 0
Germany PzKpfw IV D 13 14 1 6 7 1
Germany PzKpfw IV E 13 13 0 6 6 0
Germany PzKpfw IV F 1 13 14 1 6 7 1
Germany PzKpfw IV F 2/G13 13 0 6 6 0
Germany SdKfz 11 18 18 0 7 9 2
Germany SdKfz 222/221 27 27 0 13 13 0
Germany SdKfz 231 (6) 23 23 0 11 11 0
Germany SdKfz 231 (8) 28 28 0 10 14 4
Germany SdKfz 233 28 28 0 10 14 4
Germany SdKfz 234 28 28 0 10 14 4
Germany SdKfz 251 17 17 0 7 8 1
Germany SdKfz 251/1 17 18 1 8 9 1
Germany SdKfz 8 17 14 3 7 7 0
Germany Sturmpanzer IV 13 12 1 8 6 2
Germany Tiger I 13 13 0 3 6 3
Germany Tiger II 13 13 0 5 6 1
Germany Wirbelwind 13 14 1 6 7 1
G.B. A.10 8 9 1 4 4 0
G.B. A.10 CS 8 8 0 4 4 0
G.B. A.9 13 13 0 8 6 2
G.B. A13 Mk I 16 16 0 12 8 4
G.B. A13 Mk II 16 16 0 7 8 1
G.B. A33 13 13 0 6 6 0
G.B. Archer 8 11 3 4 5 1
G.B. Avenger 17 18 1 10 9 1
G.B. Bishop 8 10 2 3 5 2
G.B. Black Prince 6 7 1 4 3 1
G.B. Cavalier 13 17 4 7 8 1
G.B. Centaur 14 16 2 8 8 0
G.B. Centurion Mk.1 11 11 0 8 5 3
G.B. Challenger A.30 17 18 1 8 9 1
G.B. ChurllIII/IV 8 8 0 4 4 0
G.B. ChurllVII/VIII 7 8 1 4 4 0
G.B. Comet A.34 15 17 2 8 8 0
G.B. Covenator 16 18 2 13 9 4
G.B. Cromwell I 21 22 1 9 11 2
G.B. Cromwell IV 17 18 1 9 9 0
G.B. Cromwell VI 17 20 3 9 10 1
G.B. Cromwell VII 17 18 1 9 9 0
G.B. Cromwell VIII 17 18 1 9 9 0
G.B. Crusader Mk VI 14 15 1 8 7 1
G.B. Grant 14 12 2 8 6 2
G.B. Honey AOP 19 21 2 10 10 0
G.B. Honey Recce 19 24 5 10 12 2
G.B. MK II-MK III 16 16 0 10 8 2
G.B. MK VIB/C 19 19 0 13 9 4
G.B. M10 17 pdr 16 17 1 10 8 2
G.B. M22 Locust 21 20 1 16 10 6
G.B. Matilda Mk I 4 6 2 3 3 0
G.B. Matilda Mk II 8 8 0 4 4 0
G.B. Priest/Kangaroo 14 14 0 8 7 1
G.B. Sexton 13 13 0 10 6 4
G.B. Sherman 13 13 0 8 6 2
G.B. Stuart/Honey 19 20 1 10 10 0
G.B. Tetrarch 21 22 1 15 11 4
G.B. Valentine 8 8 0 4 4 0
G.B. Vickers Medium 9 7 2 5 3 2
G.B. Vickers Valiant 6 11 5 3 5 2
S.U. BT-2/5 37 17 2 16 8 8
S.U. BT-7 25 17 8 16 8 8
S.U. BT-7M 29 17 1 16 8 8
S.U. IS-1 12 12 0 8 6 2
S.U. KV-1 12 10 2 6 5 1
S.U. KV-1 M1941 12 12 0 6 6 0
S.U. KV-1s 13 14 1 8 7 1
S.U. KV-2 9 9 0 5 4 1
S.U. KV-8 12 12 0 6 6 0
S.U. KV-8.s 13 14 1 8 7 1
S.U. KV-85 12 12 0 6 6 0
S.U. T-26 9 10 1 6 5 1
S.U. T-28 12 12 0 6 6 0
S.U. T-34 18 18 0 13 9 4
S.U. T-34-85 17 18 17 1 11 9 2
S.U. T-35 10 10 0 6 5 1
S.U. T-37 12 12 0 8 6 2
S.U. T-38 15 15 0 8 7 1
S.U. T-40 15 15 0 10 7 3
S.U. T-44 17 17 0 13 8 5
S.U. T-50 18 17 1 13 8 5
S.U. T-60 15 15 0 10 7 3
S.U. T-70 17 15 2 10 7 3
USA 105 GMC M7 14 14 0 8 7 1
USA 155 GMC M12 13 14 1 6 7 1
USA 90 GMC M36 16 15 1 9 7 2
USA Combt car M1 24 24 0 9 12 3
USA M10 76mm 16 17 1 10 8 2
USA M18 GMC Hellcat 24 27 3 10 13 3
USA M22 locust 21 20 1 16 10 6
USA M24 Chaffee 19 17 2 13 8 5
USA M26 Pershing 11 15 4 2 7 5
USA M2A2 "Mae-West" 15 21 6 9 10 1
USA M2A4 15 20 5 9 10 1
USA M3 /A1 19 20 1 10 10 0
USA M3 Lee 14 12 2 8 6 2
USA M30 Carrier 13 14 1 6 7 1
USA M39 24 27 3 10 13 3
USA M3A3 19 17 2 10 8 2
USA M3A3/M3A5 14 13 1 8 6 2
USA M4 Duplex Drive 13 12 1 8 6 2
USA M4 Sherman 13 13 0 8 6 2
USA M40 155mm GMC 13 14 1 6 7 1
USA M4A3 105 15 13 2 9 6 3
USA M5/M5A1 19 20 1 12 10 2
USA M8 16 16 0 12 8 4

The book speeds are from these books.
Chamberlain and Ellis, British and American Tanks of World War II.
Chamberlain and Milsom, Allied Combat Tanks.
Chamberlain and Ellis, Axis Combat Tanks.
Cappellano and Battistelli, Italian medium tanks 1939-45.
Cappellano and Battistelli, Italian light tanks 1919-45.
Encycopedia of WW2 weapons

Re: Cross country speeds
 

The formula used in the game is the max speed in Km divided by 3-- that is clearly stated in MOBHack help--The British Comet, for example, has a max speed of 51 kmh ( in a number of sources I have access to ) and 51 km/h divided by 3 = 17 and that's what's in the game. ( we round up at .5 and above and that's why your very first entry is an error.....an A.10 speed of 25.7 km/h would convert to be 8.566666666666667 and that is 9 in game terms NOT 8 ) How well it preforms on various terrain is then determined by the individual terrain factors and there may be more than one factor per hex that influences how far a vehicle will move

THAT is how it's handled and it's NOT going to change. Any differences between whatever source used and what happens in the game in regards to CC speed is not game play significant


What I MAY look at is some of the listings where max speed differs significantly from the values we use in the game like the BT-7 so anything more than a 2 or 3 in column J will be looked at ... but we are not going to adjust how terrain effects CC speed

LRDG vehicles WILL keep their AT wheeled status.

Vehicles like light tanks can and will and will continue to be used in AC or other type formations and it's a perfectly legitimate way an OOB designer can set them up for use in formations but the Yugo example does look like you caught an error

Finally....... there will ALWAYS be speed variations from source to source so they are ALL treated as guidelines and no one source is sacrosanct . I am not going to make changes to the OOB's for minor differences in source stated speed but anything that is off by more than a hex or 2 will be looked at as time allows. I am not going to treat your list as error free given your first entry make incorrect assumptions as to how numbers are averaged so it will be treated........ IF I get time.....as just another guideline

Don

Re: Cross country speeds
 

Thank you for your reply DRG
I see from other posts you are very busy trying to keep us all happy, thank you for that also.
OK you are right A10 is wrong. In the spreadsheet in column H I have changed rounddown in the formula to round and left rounddown as rounddown in other columns.
I also checked my spreadsheet again and found an error and corrected it.
I also added a column (Q) that shows the vehicles that have a cross county speed higher than in the book and by how much.
I also sorted the spreadsheet to show the tanks wich deviate most from your values at the top.
I understand these book cross country values are not sacrosant but they are probably correct? I have no reason to beleive they are wrong or made up.
I can see the reasoning that because of terrain variability cross country speeds will be about right.
But if you compare two vehicles I think the problem becomes clear.
Compare the Tiger 1 and Sherman, both with nearly the same max speed (38 and 38.6 kph) this gives them both a crosscountry speed of 6 hexs.
But using the book crosscountry speeds of 3 and 8 there is a difference of 5 hexes in their speed per turn.
So if they move over the same terrain, for example clear the sherman will always move two hexs too few and the tiger will always move three hexes too far, every move.
If you change the terrain type the tiger will nearly always move too far the Sherman not far enough. It doesnt equal out over a game.
The early Marders are 4 hexes too fast crosscountry, Jentz says because the chassis was overloaded.
The french AMC's are 4 hexes to slow because their crosscountry speed is nearly the same as their road speed.

Looking at Mobhack I see each vehicle has a speed (Max) and a swim speed. Maybe crosscountry speed can be put into swim speed? then calculate swim speed or just have a generic swim speed?

I redid my sample list with just the most exceptional for these Sample OObs (and better justified).

Battle is fire and movement.
I am sorry to bother you with this but I think making slow vehicles slow and fast vehicles fast would be a great addition.


Nation_Vehicle__Book_Game_____Book_Game
________________Road_Road_____RoughRough
________________SpeedSpeedDiffSpeedSpeedDiff
________________Hex__Hex__Hex_Hex__Hex__Hex
Fra_AMC_34_YR___13___13___0___10____6___4
Fra_AMC_35______13___13___0___10____6___4
Fra_Char_B______11____9___2____5____4___1
Fra_FCM_2C/bis___4____6___2____2____3___1
Fra_FT-17________3____6___3____2____3___1
Fra_H-35_________9___11___2____4____5___1
Fra_R-35_________6____8___2____4____4___0
Fra_Somua_S-35__16___14___2____7____7___0
Ger_Jagdpanther_15___15___0____5____7___2
Ger_Jagdtiger___11___12___1____4____6___2
Ger_Kfz_70_Pr___23___20___3___11___10___1
Ger_Las_762_____18___13___5____6____6___0
Ger_Marder_I_37_12___12___0____2____6___4
Ger_Marder_I_39_12___12___0____2____6___4
Ger_MarderIII_H_16___13___3____6____6___0
Ger_MarderIII_M_16___14___2____6____7___1
Ger_Panther_____15___17___2___10____8___2
Ger_PanzerjagI__10___14___4____3____7___4
Ger_PzKpfw_38t__14___14___0____5____7___2
Ger_PzKpfw_I_A__12___13___1____4____6___2
Ger_PzKpfw_I_B__13___13___0____4____6___2
Ger_PzKpfw_I_C__22___26___4___11___13___2
Ger_PzKpfw_II_D-18___17___1____6____8___2
Ger_PzKpfw_II_E_18___14___4____6____7___1
Ger_PzKpfwLuchs_20___18___2___15____9___6
Ger_Pz_III_E/F__13___14___1____5____7___2
Ger_SdKfz_11____18___18___0____7____9___2
Ger_SdKfz231(8)_28___28___0___10___14___4
Ger_SdKfz_233___28___28___0___10___14___4
Ger_SdKfz_234___28___28___0___10___14___4
Ger_SdKfz_8_____17___14___3____7____7___0
Ger_Sturmpz_IV__13___12___1____8____6___2
Ger_Tiger_I_____13___13___0____3____6___3
GB__A_9_________13___13___0____8____6___2
GB__A13_Mk_I____16___16___0___12____8___4
GB__Archer_______8___11___3____4____5___1
GB__Bishop_______8___10___2____3____5___2
GB__Cavalier____13___17___4____7____8___1
GB__Centaur_____14___16___2____8____8___0
GB__Centurionk__11___11___0____8____5___3
GB__Comet_A_34__15___17___2____8____8___0
GB__Covenator___16___18___2___13____9___4
GB__Cromwell_I__21___22___1____9___11___2
GB__Cromwell_VI_17___20___3____9___10___1
GB__Grant_______14___12___2____8____6___2
GB__Honey_AOP___19___21___2___10___10___0
GB__Honey_Recce_19___24___5___10___12___2
GB__MK_II-MK_III16___16___0___10____8___2
GB__MK_VIB/C____19___19___0___13____9___4
GB__M10_17_pdr__16___17___1___10____8___2
GB__M22_Locust__21___20___1___16___10___6
GB__Matilda_Mk_I_4____6___2____3____3___0
GB__Sexton______13___13___0___10____6___4
GB__Sherman_____13___13___0____8____6___2
GB__Tetrarch____21___22___1___15___11___4
GB__Vickers_Med__9____7___2____5____3___2
GB__Vickers_Vali_6___11___5____3____5___2
SU__BT-2/5______37___17___2___16____8___8
SU__BT-7________25___17___8___16____8___8
SU__BT-7M_______29___17___1___16____8___8
SU__IS-1________12___12___0____8____6___2
SU__KV-1________12___10___2____6____5___1
SU__T-34________18___18___0___13____9___4
SU__T-34-85_17__18___17___1___11____9___2
SU__T-37________12___12___0____8____6___2
SU__T-40________15___15___0___10____7___3
SU__T-44________17___17___0___13____8___5
SU__T-50________18___17___1___13____8___5
SU__T-60________15___15___0___10____7___3
SU__T-70________17___15___2___10____7___3
USA_90_GMCM36___16___15___1____9____7___2
USA_Combtcar_M1_24___24___0____9___12___3
USA_M10_76mm____16___17___1___10____8___2
USA_M18_Hellcat_24___27___3___10___13___3
USA_M22_locust__21___20___1___16___10___6
USA_M24_Chaffee_19___17___2___13____8___5
USA_M26Pershing_11___15___4____2____7___5
USA_M2A2Mae-West15___21___6____9___10___1
USA_M2A4________15___20___5____9___10___1
USA_M3_Lee______14___12___2____8____6___2
USA_M39_________24___27___3___10___13___3
USA_M3A3________19___17___2___10____8___2
USA_M3A3/M3A5___14___13___1____8____6___2
USA_M4_Duplex___13___12___1____8____6___2
USA_M4_Sherman__13___13___0____8____6___2
USA_M4A3_105____15___13___2____9____6___3
USA_M5/M5A1_____19___20___1___12___10___2
USA_M8__________16___16___0___12____8___4

The.book.speeds.are.from.these.books.
Chamberlain.and.Ellis,.British.and.American.Tanks. of.World.War.II.
Chamberlain.and.Milsom,.Allied.Combat.Tanks.
Chamberlain.and.Ellis,.Axis.Combat.Tanks.
Cappellano.and.Battistelli,.Italian.medium.tanks.1 939-45.
Cappellano.and.Battistelli,.Italian.light.tanks.19 19-45.
Encycopedia.of.WW2.weapons

Re: Cross country speeds
 

That is not going to happen. Game Cross country speed calculation are applied the same way to every vehicle and we are NOT going to introduce individual variables. That was never more than a general approximation that works in the majority of cases BUT....there will ALWAYS be vehicles that don't fit......live with it ( we do )

I will however, look at the list at some point and investigate some of the base speeds we have used for things like the BT's which appear to have been artificially slowed

Don

Re: Cross country speeds
 

Ok thanks for considering my post

Re: Cross country speeds
 

I'm not sure how everybody , including us, seems to have missed the BT series speeds being low for so long....( AND the Ft-17's were too fast -EDIT but I seem to recall those were deliberately made 6 to match infantry speed otherwise they fall behind) AND some of the ammo counts are off, which I wouldn't have discovered if I hadn't been looking at the speed so there will be some changes made because of your work just not what you set out to do

Re: Cross country speeds
 

Maybe it's because they are almost perfectly correct (apart from BT-7M) :D
According to Russian books by Baryatynski/Kolomiets (Bronyekollektsya series), both BT-2/BT-5 developed 52 km/h on tracks (ie 17) and 72 km/h on wheels, BT-7: 53 (ie 17.6) and 73 km/h and BT-7M: 62 (ie 20.6) and 86 km/h respectively.
Obviously, these tanks could go on wheels on roads only.

Mihail Svirin gives the same figures for BT-2/BT-5, and off road speed 32 / 33. For BT-7 he gives 51.6 km/h (ie 17), for BT-7M also 62.

High figures, exceeding 100 km/h, probably come only from one of Christie's prototypes.


BTW: speaking of BT, there was no such thing as BT-2a (unit 115) and BT-5a (unit 95) - only BT-7A with short 76mm gun (there were only two experimental BT-2 tested with 76mm guns in different turrets).
Formations 005 and 124 must be modified accordingly... It seems however, that there should be no BT-7A in each company, because eg. 23rd Brigade, during attack on Poland, had 206 BT-7 and 3 BT-7A... And in 1940 there were only 104 BT-7A in a whole army (for over 5000 BT-7).

Unit 003 BT-7a should have capital letter, carried only 50 rounds of ammo, and was armed with #034 76mm L16 KT-28, not L-10 L/26

Re: Cross country speeds
 

According to Svirin, T-70 developed only 42 km/h (ie 14), J. Magnuski gives 45 km/h (15).

Re: Cross country speeds
 

Gee..... you mean people who post here quoting "authoritative sources" might actually be completely wrong ?? :re: I'm shocked..........

What I think I needed to do about 4 years ago was tell people if they don't like what they see then use MOBHack and quite making useless work for me . What you are telling us here is most of his stats are questionable

Re: Cross country speeds
 

Actually, the rest might be OK, but I wouldn't trust Chamberlain and other Western authors writing about Soviet tanks, using probably some obsolete third-hand or fourth-hand sources. Besides, it's hard to be an expert on all countries. New Russian sources (=after a fall of communism) seem more credible here, I guess. The same is with German tanks (although they were always popular) - when I want to know something, I better trust Jentz.

Anyway, I hope it's good, that I checked it...

Re: Cross country speeds
 

I did change the Bt-2 / Bt-5 A's to prototype..... I am already fed up fixing scenarios because of trivial changes creating " broken" scenarios. I have more than enough on both games lists to keep me busy and away from doing something worthwhile so we are DONE accepting further changes Michal. I had no intention of using that or any other data without some cross checking. As I mentioned the FT-17's ARE to fast in the game..........we knew that so long ago I forgot it until the point was raised again....they move at infantry speed

Re: Cross country speeds
 

I've never raised an issue of FT speed, as far as I can remember - I assumed this is a minimal reasonable value.

Re: Cross country speeds
 

To be quite honest I feel like my credibility is being attacked here.
All the values are from the books quoted. Not made up by me.
I have most of the Jentz panzer tract books, and most of the German speeds match those.
I think I noted Jentz as one of my sources origionally but that has fallen off.
Is Him me?
I never said authoratative I said published.
I agree the Max speeds are mostly right, I am posting about the cross country speeds that mostly arnt.(According to these books, I know there are other sources that I dont have.)
What I am saying is tank crosscountry speeds clearly aren't half of max speed for all the tanks in WW2! I am trying to show how many and by how much they do deviate. It a sort of survey
I also said that I thought the max speed quoted for BTs was with the tracks off.
I see your problem with scenarios, but changing swim speed to crosscountry speed wouldn't affect any scenarios?
With the scenario problem,
Maybe issue only the new scenarios with each version and remove all the others? People that play the scenarios would have time to play them all beween patches?
Similar to how you have to finish PBEM before patching, you have to finish Scenarios before patching.
How many people play the old scenarios? I dont play any scenarios.
or remove the affected scenarios? or scenario designers upgrade them?
If there was a way around the Scenario problem maybe you could do Pibwl's changes and eventually there wouldnt be hardly any left to do?
I think lots of people like the game because of all the tiny detail. It would be a shame to waste Pibwl's work.
Just Dreaming sorry for any stress caused.

Re: Cross country speeds
 

Your "credibility" took a big hit when you showed you did not know what " default " meant in the game in regards to unitclass and posted huge lists of things you thought should be changed


What you wrote was "BT-2/5 on wheels.".....in a spreadsheet titled TrackedCrossCountrySpeeds.xls and eariler on you wrote that ..........



at no time did you suggest the BT-2's or BT-5's that ARE set up as tracked in the game should be wheeled as those tanks only used wheels to preserve their tracks when moving for distances along roads so the game sets them as tracked not wheeled so why show me worthless wheeled speeds for a tank that in combat fought tracked and is set up that way in the game?


I have REPEATEDLY told you the way CC speed is calculated in not going to change, it's an approximation applied the same way to each vehicle type that more or less works well but there WILL ALWAYS BE EXCEPTIONS and we are NOT going to change swim speed to CC speed


Any TOP speed pegged as too high or low I will investigate.... and if *I* find other sources agree I will make an adjustment.


That's as far as this is going to go

Don