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-   -   Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.8.1) (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=51009)

Pibwl October 31st, 2015 05:28 AM

Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.8.1)
Last years I've collected some corrections or suggestions for Italian OOB 34.

In some cases I refer to Wikipedia (Italian), but these peculiar articles look reliable, and apparently basing on books.

2 CV-33 - earliest series should be armed with #218 single 6.5mm MG (there was no twin 6.5mm at all, later series had twin 8 mm - eg. according to Squadron/Signal Nicola Pignato "Italian Armored Vehicles of World War Two"). Starting from 1935 they were retrofitted with 8 mm MGs - I have no exact data, but I guess that 6.5mm should be rare or extinct by the war's beginning.
The photo has twin MGs, but it's hardly visible anyway.

Same for unit 369, which should have either single 6.5mm or twin 8mm (more likely, considering its starting date 1935).

Peculiar is, that late CV-33 were armed with belt-fed twin 8mm Fiat M.14/35, while CV-35 were armed with magazine-fed 8mm Breda M.38 with a bit shorter barrel. A difference seems negligible, although Fiat had longer range (see further).

Max speed was 42 km/h for all CV-33 and 35 (same source) (now: 13 and 15)

BTW: maybe it's worth to arm tankettes with TMGs with range 24-30, instead of lousy BMGs, when it is their only weapon?
Should really a placement of a weapon in a hull instead of a turret decrease range from 30 to 10?... Even HMGs on a tripod, with lower line of fire, have range 24-30, while a mounting of MG in a tankette seems more stable, than on a tripod. Squadron/Signal book says, that effective range of 8mm Fiat was 1000m, and of 8mm Breda - 500 m, which are low figures, but I guess the same applies to these weapons mounted in a turret. Max range was around 5500 m in both cases.

7 Armato 9T M.32 - it was a prototype only (Carro di Rottura 12 ton) http://ww2photo.se/tanks/ita/prototyp/ca32.htm http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index....page__st__1600

8, 10 Ceirano 75L27 - used from 1/30 ("Italian Truck-Mounted Artillery in action") (it would demand change in formations in case of Assault gun class) - at least until 7/43 in Sicilia.
Max speed was 25-30 km/h only.

9 SMV M.40 75L18 - according to "Armor PhotoGallery 17: Semoventi M.41 & M.42", it had 50 mm armour in front (25+25) (maybe on superstructure front only?) - although Squadron/Signal gives 6-30mm, without details. Sides and rear are OK (25).

According to same source, SMV M.40 had 6.5mm Breda 30 AAMG (apparently weapon #236), while 8mm Breda 38 (not 37!) was adopted in SMV M.41, appearing in 1942.
To be precise, picture 16134 is M.41 (full length fenders), while M.40 is 16170 or 2524.
Same for units #38, 260, 347.

Currently there are no M.41 75/18 in the OOB, so I suggest to rename late entries of M.40 75L18: #539, 540, 541 to M.41, with pic. 16134 and 8mm AAMG (armour should be the same as above).

15 Tiratore Scelto - a common Internet knowledge seems, that Italy had no special snipers with scoped rifles... http://www.comandosupremo.com/forums...alian-snipers/

19 Obice Montagna
- icon should have twin tails (say, 2106?)

Earlier - from 1930 there could be added Obice Montagna 75/13 Mod. 1915 (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0koda_7,5_cm_Vz._1915 )

28 Cannon Montagna
- 149mm L/17 were regular Krupp heavy howitzers (149/12), not infantry or mountain guns - http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/149/12_Mod._14 (it seems to be this howitzer, since basic sFH-13 had barrel length L/17 - maybe the Italians counted barrel length other way?).
BTW: Italian Wikipedia, which has pretty well covered guns. recognizes only 75 mm and 105 mm mountain guns http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Templat...uerra_mondiale (if it's folded, it must be clicked [mostra] on the right).
Picture rather isn't 149 mm, and icon isn't suitable as well, but 150mm howitzers rather don't appear as on-map arty

29 Obice da 75L32 - precisely it was Cannone 75/32, not howitzer. It entered service only in 1941 (now 1930) - http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/75/32_Mod._1937
Icon should be twin-tail (http://www.maquetland.com/article-ph...937-draguignan ) - say, 2105 or 2128

Maybe it would be better to give all the guns their original Italian designations, like 75/32 instead of 75L32? It would give more taste.

30 Obice da 75L25 - most probably it should be Cannone da 75/27 (not 25).
There were 3 models:
Mod.1911 was on-map gun (8350 m), rest had 10200 m (range 205 is too long BTW)

32 CV-33/20 - IMO a better name would be eg. CV-33/Solothurn - CV-33/20 is confusing in a view of other Italian names, where last number indicated weight (or barrel length).

33-37, 496 Art Navale - maybe it's worth to name them DD/CL/CA/BB Art Navale, to know, what we deal with?

36 Art Navale - the Italians used 305mm guns only until around 1937/38 (beginning of refit of Andrea Doria class)

55 Armato P-26/40 - IMO a better name is just P-26/40 - this is only a part of Carro Armato expression (tank), not a standalone name.
It should have no BMG.
Same for unit 088

57 3RO 90L53 - I suggest a name 3Ro 90/53, or Lancia3Ro 90/53 (in "Italian Truck-Mounted Artillery in Action" there is "Ro" instead of "RO")

58 SPA 65L17 - Autocannone 65/17 were usually used on captured Morris CS8 chassis, not SPA (according to a book above - even described on Wikipedia as standard equipment http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/65/17_su_Morris_CS8 ).

62 AS-37 Protetto,
63 2TL-37 Protetto

- according to "Italian Armoured vehicles of WWII" Carro Protetto AS 37 was derived from the TL 37 tractor, so it seems to be the same vehicle. However, Italian Wikipedia calls it Autoprotetto S37 http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat-SPA_S37 , what looks quite reliable, because AS-37 was a light Saharian truck, also derived from TL37 http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat-SPA_AS37

According to the book (and Wiki), entered production in 1941 (and rather towards mid of the year, than January, I guess). Capacity was 7 + 2 crew (according to Wiki, 8+1). Armour was 8mm, roof was open. A MG was a standard weapon.

I didn't encounter any 2TL-37 Protetto with armoured roof. On both photos in the game there is the same vehicle (AS-37).

65 Lancia IZ, 66 Lancia IZM - in fact it was 1Z/1ZM (Squadron/Signal book and http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancia_1Z ), although I was always convinced it was "iZ"..
Lancia 1Z should be in fact armed with #231 6.5 (2) TMG and single 6.5 TMG in an upper turret. BTW, both MGs in a main big turret in both vehicles were independent, and could be treated separately. Different MG models were also used, but it is negligible.
I'd remove single BMG from 1ZM, because it only shot rearwards.
Crew was up to 6 in both.

I have no exact information, but I believe, that 1Z with an upper turret didn't survive long - maybe until a beginning of the 1930s?
On the other hand, 1ZM was used in occupation service well until 1943.

67 Lancia IZII - I couldn't find information about such vehicle. A photo looks like some Spanish Civil War "tiznao".
Maybe it could be substituted with such vehicle: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat-Terni_Tripoli

69 Fiat 626 - cab-over-engine Fiat 626 entered production in 1939 http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_626 (there are earlier trucks in Heavy Truck class available)
Maybe a better icon for Fiat as a heavy truck is 2151/52 - 606 has quite narrow cab (Bedford QL?)

70 Lancia 3RO - 3Ro according to the mentioned book.
It entered service in 1938 http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancia_3Ro, although earlier there was Lancia Ro - from 1933 http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancia_Ro, so I guess it can represent both from 1933, with 3Ro name.

78 SMV M.43 105L25 - first delivered in 5/43 according to Armor Photo Gallery ("few were delivered before the Armistice" according to Squadron/Signal)
Same for unit 431

79 SMV M.41 75L32 - all sources agree, that it was an experimental variant, and L34 gun was finally chosen instead. There's no info, how many were made (single one?) and when; according to Squadron/Signal book Italian Armoured Vehicles of World War II: "the 75/32-armed semovente was cancelled in 1942".
I'd remove it.
Picture is ordinary M.40 75/18, BTW.

80 SMV M.43 75L34 - basic model with 75/34 gun was M.42 (see below). According to Squadron/Signal only "some" M43s with new hull were armed with L34, and according to Armor PhotoGallery, M43 with this gun were used only by the Germans. As a result, it should be removed IMO.
Its photo is M.43 75/46, BTW.

86 SMV M.42 75L34, it should have narrower icon due to older chassis (1904/1905 of 75L32 would be good). Armour should be generally the same as in old 75/18 (according to Armor Photo Gallery there was 50mm solid plate in front).
Same for 135 and 261 (and they didn't carry skirts). I suggest name 75/34.

According to the same source, it was produced from 5/43; also according to Squadron/Signal it entered service in summer 1943 (now #135 ends before this date and there is no 75L34 in Tank Destroyer class in 1943-45 available).
According to En-Wikipedia, the only operational use by the Regio Esercito was in the defence of Rome from 8–10 September 1943.

Ammunition was only 45 (now 48). Squadron's book lists only HE and AP ammo.

Pibwl October 31st, 2015 09:07 PM

Re: Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.8.1)

Originally Posted by Pibwl (Post 831894)
78 SMV M.43 105L25 - first delivered in 5/43 according to Armor Photo Gallery ("few were delivered before the Armistice" according to Squadron/Signal)
Same for unit 431

86 SMV M.42 75L34, it should have narrower icon due to older chassis (1904/1905 of 75L32 would be good). Armour should be generally the same as in old 75/18 (according to Armor Photo Gallery there was 50mm solid plate in front).

According to Bellona Military Vehicle Prints 36 by Nicola Pignato, Semovente 105/25 had armour:
hull: 50 (upper, at 35 deg from vertical)/ 25 /25
superstructure: 75 / 25 /25

87 Carro M4a3 - M4A3 rather I guess. "Carro" seems redundant.

99 Sz Mortai 105 - if it is US 4.2in (107 mm) mortar, then the picture should be 555 or 8562 (picture shows a generic one, US 4.2in had square base and single support)

111 SM75 Marsupiale - photo is Hungarian one. Italian could be http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/cww2/sm75/sm75-3.jpg

147,148 Fiat 621 - produced from 1929 http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_621
Sure used by the end of the war, being apparently the most popular pre-war truck.
I think it should swap icons with #70 Lancia 3Ro, which was bigger (a heavy truck)

151 SPA 35 Pratico - possibly standard icon should be green 392 (now all have 391)

169 Ansaldo SVA 5 - it seems too fast (4) - max speed around 230 km/h

170 Ansaldo A.300 - it could take more bombs (up to 191 kg in total, it could also use 25-kg ones) - now it's worse, than older SVA 5. Crew was 2.

173 IMAM Ro.37 - isn't it too fast with speed 4? (297 km/h for Ro.37 or 330 km/h for Ro.37bis)

175,176 G.50 Freccia - it seems too fast (6) - it was around 483 km/h (slower than Hurricane, which has 5) - same for MC.200 (#179,180) and D.520 (#181 - 5 in French OOB)

BTW: G.50 and MC.200 are crying for own icons, if anybody cared, who can create icons... ;)

213-217 SM.79 Gobbo - isn't it better to call them with their official (and better sounding ;)) name Sparviero?

Pibwl November 2nd, 2015 07:53 PM

Re: Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.8.1)
Let's finish with truck-mounted artillery...

class 19: Tank destroyers:

Originally Posted by Pibwl (Post 831894)
8, 10 Ceirano 75L27 - used from 1/30 ("Italian Truck-Mounted Artillery in action") (it would demand change in formations in case of Assault gun class) - at least until 7/43 in Sicilia.
Max speed was 25-30 km/h only.

I suggest name Ceirano 75/27CK - the gun's designation.
They were available in Italy until surrender.

57 3RO 90L53 - "first batteries deployed early in 1942" (now 10/41, although they were apparently completed by then)

There could be also added Fiat634N 102/35 in the same role - https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/102/35_su_Fiat_634N
Two batteries of Navy AA 102mm guns were put on trucks in late 1941 and used with Ariete division in combat against tanks in 10-12/41. Specifications and icon would be roughly the same, but gun's data should be established somehow... Possibly like the French #69 105mm mle 1913, but with some AP penetration.

Class 22: SP flak:

11 Semovente CA 20 - crew 10 is definitely too much - 20mm guns on popular captured Ford F15 trucks had 4, on other trucks surely it was similar. Move class should be wheel (seems, that this unit was once SdKfz-10/4...). Better desert icon is 619. Better photo (of Ford F15) is 2698.
I've found no info, that 20mm guns on trucks were really used before late 1940, especially before the war ("by late 1940, in response to specific request by higher HQ, artillery workshops in Libya had built 100 mounts for 20mm cannons and 150 mounts for 47mm guns suitable for installation in truck beds"). SPA-38 trucks were used initially in this role.

We have also SP-Flak 487 SPA 35 AS-20 (available 6/37-7/43), which is in fact a specific example of Semovente CA 20, available for part of its period. It should be SPA 38 in fact, and the gun was "referred to both officially and commonly as the Breda da 20/65" - so maybe a better name is SPA-38 20/65 (it wouldn't confuse, in case of this and following units, with AS as a designation of Autocarro Sahariano trucks).
There are the same doubts as for is starting date - although there is a photo of "1937 prototype of SPA 38R cargo truck mounts a 20mm Breda Model 35 cannon" https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:S...tipo_20-65.jpg (description quoted from the book).
I believe a better icon for a single 20mm gun is 619, not 620.
Since it was mounted on ordinary truck, size of 2 is too low. Speed was 51 km/h according to Wikipedia.

If we are precise in naming models, then #11 Semovente CA 20 could be changed into Ford F15 20/65 - it was most popular mount for 20mm guns in desert warfare, adopted from around 9/41. Speed should be higher then, and size might be 2, since it had quite low profile.

There were also used also Camionette AS 37 with 20mm guns - but they can rather be represented as an existing SP AT vehicle (#475 below)

12 Semovente CA 37 - very comprehensive "Italian Truck-Mounted Artillery in Action" doesn't mention, that 37 mm guns were ever mounted on trucks, especially twin ones...

Maybe it was supposed to be German halftrack first - I have no idea, if the Italians used them.

Class 21: SP artillery:

Originally Posted by Pibwl (Post 831894)
58 SPA 65L17 - Autocannone 65/17 were usually used on captured Morris CS8 chassis, not SPA (according to a book above - even described on Wikipedia as standard equipment http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/65/17_su_Morris_CS8 ).

In service from 9/41 (now 6/41, would need change in formations 80 and 317).
Better icon seems 721 (although it's also used for 47mm gun trucks below)

It can also be doubled as class 52 SP-AT vehicle. They were supposed to counter LRDG patrols.

527 3RO 100L17 - I suggest name 3Ro 100/17. They were used since 9/41 as well (now 6/41)
I think, that best icon is 612, especially, that they used green on sand camo (and icon 721 is reserved by other vehicles)

Class 52: SP-AT vehicle

475 Autocannon 20mm - basically the same as #11 Semovente CA 20, but in AT role. Size can be 2 (they were quite low), crew 4. Used also from 9/41 (now 6/41). 20mm guns were mounted on SPA trucks from late 1940, as I mentioned, but it seems that only with advent of light trucks they started to be used in offensive AT/AA role (Ford F15 - photo, AS-37). There's no reason, I think, that this unit should end in 6/42, before end of combat in Africa.

477 Autocannon 47mm - represents mostly 47mm guns on AS37 and AS43 light trucks. Size can be 2 (they were quite low), crew also should be lower (now 8). There's no reason, that this should end in 6/42, before end of combat in Africa - moreover, AS43 gun trucks were newly produced and captured by the Germans in 9/43. Photo itself is AS-37 - better quality is 2523.

There aren't known vehicles with 47mm gun AND 20mm Breda, and both weapons wouldn't fit on light trucks.
There are only some photos of AS37 trucks with 20mm Breda and 8mm(?) MG - such vehicle can be added as option, but it may be the same class, as AS42 Sahariana (Heavy AC).

There were also 47mm guns on Lancia 3Ro heavy trucks mounted from late 1940, but it should go into other category (tank destroyer?), I guess, being much heavier.

484 TL-37 AS-20 - it should be 20mm gun on armoured S37 (aka AS37 Protetto), but I couldn't find info on such variant. Besides, its armour sides would probably interfere with the AA gun. Photo is ordinary S37, as unit #62 mentioned before.
Personally, I'd remove it.

497 TL-37 75L27 - again, there's no info on 75/27 gun on armoured S37. It might be a misunderstanding, since there was indeed 75/27 field gun on TL-37 tractor, but it wasn't armoured and looked completely different: http://www.societyofgentlemengamers....605ff3d105e93c

IMO, it should be changed to real unarmoured one - icon 755 (it was forward-shooting weapon). Crew was 4 (again, much too much). There's no precise info on availability, but apparently from early 1942 until May 42 (or even longer, according to one photo).

Formation #248 would have to be modified accordingly with earliest and latest units (#477 Autocannon 47mm could as well be extended until 1946)

Class 126: Gun APC (W)
Personally, I can't see use of this class - there are two trucks with 47mm guns, that are already covered by unit 477 Autocannon 47mm (SP-AT vehicle class) - and the only usage of Gun APC (W) class is formation #238 AS Sahariane, where there are also used SP-AT vehicles!... Possibly it is redundant.

485 SPA 35 AS-47 - it is effectively the same, as 477 Autocannon 47mm (and there was no SPA 35). Photo is AS37 gun truck.

488 TL-37 AS-47 - it is effectively the same, as above, with the same AS37 photo, but different icon... It should not be armoured.

Class 128 Light SPAA vehicle
486 TL-37S - it is supposed to be twin 8mm AAMG on armoured S37. It is the only unit in this class, which is only used in formation #238 AS Sahariane. Firstly, there is no info available on armoured S37 with twin 8mm MGs. Secondly, assigning armoured S37 to Saharian units is wrong, since they were mostly (only?) used for anti-partizan operations in Balkans. Thirdly, Saharian patrols should have trucks with much more effective 20mm AA guns. And there is already one SP-flak in #238 formation - so there might be two.

We could think about creation of 20mm-armed AS-37 or Ford as Light SPAA vehicle, but I'm not sure if it makes sense (if we throw out 37mm SP flak, there would remain only 20mm-armed vehicles anyway)


Pibwl November 3rd, 2015 06:50 PM

Re: Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.8.1)

Originally Posted by Pibwl (Post 831894)
67 Lancia IZII - I couldn't find information about such vehicle. A photo looks like some Spanish Civil War "tiznao".
Maybe it could be substituted with such vehicle: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat-Terni_Tripoli

I've found info about the vehicle from the photo on Russian page http://aviarmor.net/tww2/armored_car...o_blindata.htm, but it doesn't correspond with data in the game.
It was one vehicle built upon 3Ro chassis in 1944 in Lucca (RSI), named Natale Piacentini. It was actually an APC, transporting 15 soldiers, armed with 20mm gun and 8mm BMG. Probably survived until the end of war. Seems, that it should belong to RSI rather.

Pibwl November 3rd, 2015 07:22 PM

Re: Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.8.1)
Small supplement to truck-mounted artillery

11 Semovente CA 20 - it doesn't seem, that light AA guns were designated as Semovente (SP-gun). Apparently they were rather known as Autocannone (gun truck). If we don't name it with a specific name, eg. Ford F15 20/65, then I suggest to name it Autocannone 20.

Fords with 20mm seem most popular in desert warfare, but 20mm guns were also put on light trucks AS37, and medium trucks SPA-38 (mentioned) and SPA Dovunque 35 - photo at: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPA_Dovunque_35
Therefore, creators of unit 487 SPA 35 AS-20 might have had in mind SPA Dovunque 35, not SPA 38 - but, as I mentioned, SPA 38 was more common.

475 Autocannon 20mm, 477 Autocannon 47mm - in Italian it is Autocannone, so maybe "Autocannone 20" is better? I'm not Italian, so I don't know if removing a last letter is acceptable in this case. We could also name them AS37 20/65 or AS37 47/32 (most popular desert vehicle carrying these guns, along with Ford in case of 20mm, but Ford was more AA-oriented). AS43 came later, and most were taken by the Germans.

Before advent of formation #238 AS Sahariane we could create an unit with three 65/17 gun trucks (unit 58) and two Fords with 20mm (unit 11), available from 9/41 - it was a variation of a battery with four 65/17 gun trucks, and both were known as "Batteria Volante" (flying battery). Unfortunately, the cool name must be shortened...


484 TL-37 AS-20 - it should be 20mm gun on armoured S37 (aka AS37 Protetto), but I couldn't find info on such variant. Besides, its armour sides would probably interfere with the AA gun. Photo is ordinary S37, as unit #62 mentioned before.
Personally, I'd remove it.
Neither IT Wikipedia lists S37 among platforms for 20/65 guns: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda_20/65_Mod._1935

Pibwl November 7th, 2015 07:59 PM

Re: Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.8.1)
285-288 CasaFortificata - picture is a bunker, while the name indicates fortified house.

320, 321, 593 Cannone 65mm - icon should be single-tail, eg. 2109

322, 323, 594 Cannone 70mm - it seems to be ancient 70/15 http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/70/15 - I can't find no info on 70/17. A photo can be found in Wikipedia. Used only by second-line and colonial units. Icon should be single-tail, eg. 2108
Unit 323 is AT-gun, but IT Wikipedia lists only HE and shrapnel.


Earlier - from 1930 there could be added Obice Montagna 75/13 Mod. 1915 (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0koda_7,5_cm_Vz._1915 )
It seems, that 324, 325, 595 Cannone 75L17 is in fact 75/13, and it was classified as obice da montagna , not cannone. IT Wikipedia doesn't list other short 75mm guns. There is 75/17 Schneider, but they were captured Yugoslavian guns http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schneider_75_mm_M_Mle_1919

326, 327, 365, 596 Cannone 75L19 - with weapon 75mm L19 Mod.34 it seems to be in fact Obice 75/18 (not 19) Mod. 1934 http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/75/18_Mod._1934/1935.
Hence, in their classes it is the same, as units:
#19 Obice Montagna using weapon #32 75mm L18 M34/35
#358 Cannone 75L18 using weapon #61 Obice da 75L18
(Mod.34 and 35 differed in a gunbed only). All weapons should be the same, while weapon 32 has too much range 204 - according to Wikipedia, it had 9500 m. It is not an off-map gun class anyway.
Icon should have shorter barrel (say, 2106, as proposed for unit 19 - same for unit 358)
Photo in 326,327,596 is not this gun, which looked more modern.

328,329,366 Cannone 105mm - they were in fact captured French or Yugo guns http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schneid...mm_M_Mle._1919 , hence they should start in late 1940. However, there is no mention that they were fitted with AP ammo - and this gun doesn't look as a good AT measure..
Icon should be single-tail, say 2115

331 C/C 37L45 - picture should be German PAK (now it's Bofors)

333,367 Cannone 149L17 - same remarks, as for #28
It might be Krupp 149/12 or Skoda 149/13 - IT Wikipedia lists AP (in fact HEAT) ammo only for the second one http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0koda_15_cm_Vz._1914 , but it wasn't an infantry support gun, but heavy howitzer anyway.

335 Cannone 150mm - German sIG has icon 2216
It is however peculiar, that IT Wikipedia doesn't mention about its eventual usage in Regio Esercito http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_cm_sIG_33

339 Maroszek FCC - officially it was Fucile controcarro Mod. 35(P) - http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maroszek_wz._35
Weapon's name should be changed (now ZK.. suggests Czech weapon)
It has a warhead 2 (should be 1 I guess).

BTW: is extremely high accuracy 34 of German #88 PzB-39 and #137 PzB M.SS.41 justified? It's almost twice better, than wz.35 (18) (#139 in GE and #135 in PL OOBs) and Boys (16) and much better than PTRS

346 L6 Lanciafiamme - apparently it had no trailer, but internal tank of mixture (photos do not show the tank with a trailer, and it had 200 l of mixture (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/L6/40), what would be too low for a trailer - 500 l in CV-33 Lf). Soviet OT-130 carried 400 l tank inside.
According to Squadron/Signal book: "An unknown number of L6/40Lfs were built, but this variant did not enter service"

349,359-361 - French tanks - I don't expect the Italians to bother with changing original MGs to own obsolete 6.5mm ones...
Some photos of Italian R35 and S35 can be found here http://www.italie1935-45.com/forum/v...php?f=10&t=389

355 AB Munizioni - in fact a picture should be turretless Autoblinda, but it may be hard to find..

364 Alfa Romeo Prot - a basic model of armoured truck was in fact Fiat 665NM (mentioned in Italian Armoured Vehicles..). It was developed in 1942 (now 41) and used for anti-partisan actions

374 Dovunque35 Prot - seems, that they entered service in late 1944 in RSI only https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPA_Dovunque_35_protetto http://www.italie1935-45.com/regio-e...ue-35-blindato - although 2 were captured by the partizans.

381 Spelonca Alpino - seems, that it should have a photo of a cave

378, 379, 380, 382, 388 forts etc - they use 75/32 guns, but it entered service only in 1941 and was most modern Italian field gun http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/75/32_Mod._1937 - I guess, that forts should use older guns (eg. 75/27?)

Pibwl November 10th, 2015 08:32 PM

Re: Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.8.1)
399 SPA 35 Dovunque - icon is different, than in unit #068 (it has icon 391, which seems more correct, for it has no long nose - with 392 green variant eventually).

400,401 Fiat 508B OA, Fiat 508C OA (avail. from 1935) - in fact, both use a photo 16070 of 508CM, which was a standard Italian jeep produced from late 1938 (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_508CM ) or even 1939 (http://www.italie1935-45.com/regio-e...50-fiat-508-cm).
The first one should be Fiat 508M - https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_508M, http://www.italie1935-45.com/regio-e...at-508-balilla - it could be named 508M or 508 Spider or just 508, and be fitted with own photo (there was a good photo 30252 before, but it was replaced with newer Polish 508 Łazik photo in latest releases).

The second one should be renamed CM and made available later.

420 Fiat Ricerca - it should be the same vehicle as above, using icon 694 (current one is too large). Current photo is a small civilian sedan, while a better one would be one of jeeps above. I suggest to create two units, 508M and CM as above, with different photos.

There is a problem with jeep-like vehicles, that currently it can carry 6 persons, and it has to carry 4-men scout squads, while M could carry only 1+2, and CM 1+3 persons.

Same remarks for unit 646 Fiat Ricerca (which has to carry 6-men squads).

402 Fiat 626RNL AB - name is wrong - 626RNL had cab over engine and was produced since 1939
I don't know what bus should go there instead.

412 Fiat 1100 - much better icon for a pickup is 689 or 3182-3184

416 Fiat OGI 708 - should be Fiat-OCI 708 CM (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat-OCI_708_CM )

There is also one cool wheeled tractor, that could be added: http://www.italie1935-45.com/regio-e...item/295-tm-40

417 Breda 32M Trat - used from some 1933 https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda_TP32 http://www.italie1935-45.com/regio-e...m/284-breda-32 (now: 39). Max speed was only 30 km/h.

421 AS-37 Ricerca - better icon is 456 (current one is AS-42 with a spare wheel in front). Photo is nice, but it is TL-37 tractor (it is acceptable, since AS-37 was a derivate fof Tl-37, but it looked different https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat-SPA_AS37 ). It should not be armoured.

422 Pavesi P4-100 - was used since the 1920s https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavesi_P4

428 Bat Obici 212mm - it should be 210mm http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansaldo_210/22_Mod._1935

437 AB Volpe - a translation of a name suggests it is a Fox, but a photo is a low-quality Humber (Fox is 6009). Fox should be armoured with .50 Browning and .30 Browning (btw: armament of Canadian unit #48 should be corrected as well)

438 Autoblinda MkIV - photo should be Humber IV (30121). I don't think the Italians would change 7.9mm Besa to Breda CMG. maybe the name should be AB Humber MkIV rather?

441 219mm Mortaio - possibly it should be 210mm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortaio_da_210/8_D.S.

462 MGCA M.37 Breda - photo is probably some ZB-30. Breda looked like this http://worldwartwozone.com/gallery.old/500/be5b.jpg (there are also more interesting photos on this page http://worldwartwozone.com/forums/in...talian-forces/ )

Pibwl November 11th, 2015 08:31 PM

Re: Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.8.1)
465 Cannone 155L39 - photo shows US M2 Long Tom, but it should be 155/45 (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_155_mm_Long_Tom)

467 MGCA M.30 Breda - was there an AA mounting for such a light LMG?... (and with small magazine?) As the earliest AAMG, I'd rather expect heavy Fiat-Revelli Mod. 1914 (what seems to be confirmed by https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat-Revelli_Mod._1914 - unfortunately, no photos in AA configuration)

468 MGCA Breda 13.2 - photo is here https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Breda_mod.31.jpg (it doesn't seem, that 13.2mm Breda was a standard type in ground army...)

474 Romeo Cingolato - it should be rather Breda 61 semicingolato - https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda_61

The other halftrack model was Fiat 727, which dffered from German ones, but only a few were made https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_727

476 AS-37 - same remarks as unit 421

492,493 Fiat SPA 611/34, 611/35 - it was just Fiat 611 https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_611_%28autoblindo%29
Size should be 4 - it was huge.

492 should be armed with 3 single MGs only - two single ones in a turret and one at the back.
493 might be designated Fiat 611 37/40 indicating the gun, and it should be armed with #14 Vickers-Terni 37/40 (now 47mm), single 6.5mm MG at the turret's rear and the second one at the back. Gun ammo was 50 rounds (there should be more AP). Definitely the gun and MG could not shoot at one target at the same time (in both cars, usage of rear hull MG must have been rare).
Winter icon could be 4448

499 Fiat 2000 - it had single 6.5mm MGs (there existed only single versions of 6.5mm MG).
Used until 1934 only https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_2000

500 CV-35 [20], 503 CV-38 [20], 504 CV-38 CC - there's no info about trials of fitting tankettes with 20mm guns, apart from a probably single vehicle used during the Spanish Civil War. Only from late 1940 they started to be armed with Solothurn gun (represented already by unit #32) - and surely 20mm-armed tankettes weren't produced in any series before that date. IMO they should be removed.

501 CV-35 [37] - there's no info about tankettes armed with 37mm guns - and surely they were not produced in any series.

502 CV-38 - "it was not until mid-1942 when Ansaldo started modifying 200 tankettes with the new suspension" (Squadron/Signal book)

505 CV-38/Brixia - a photo is on a page http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index....page__st__2680

506 CV-38 [13.2] - actually, a few tankettes were fitted with 13.2mm MG only from 1941 (or late 1940 - Squadron/Signal book).
They and 20-mm armed ones weren't numerous and could be treated as a separate category, to avoid platoons consisting all of modified tankettes.

Pibwl November 13th, 2015 08:17 PM

Re: Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.8.1)
508 L 6/40 CA - I can find no info about alleged L 6/40 with AAMG (instead of CMG?..), also there are no photos with AAMG on a turret.
According to http://www.italie1935-45.com/regio-e...tem/289-l-6-40 , delivered from 5/41 (now 3/41). But first were delivered to cavalry school, and they were shipped to Africa only in 12/41.

509 L 6/40 [37] - no sign of such tank with 37mm gun, apart from early prototypes, but they had short 37/26...

510,511 AB Coloniale - it's not clear what they're supposed to be. Photo is Belgian Ford/M-H 91Y armoured tractor. If we mean obsolete armoured cars, that were used away from main theatre, it can possibly be only Eastern Africa - and Fiat 611 and Lancia 1ZM were used there. A nice colonial car could be also http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat-Terni_Tripoli (btw, according to this page, they were initially armed with 6.5mm MG, but during the war they were rearmed with 12.7mm AAMG in an open turret). So, maybe after an advent of AB-40, older armoured cars should be available as colonial cars only? In case of Lancia 1ZM it would be until 1943 (on islands).

There is no sign of armoured gun-armed trucks in Italian army, moreover, used in far colonies instead of main theatre. There could be used ordinary gun-armed trucks instead, described earlier. ("In Eritrea, an unspecified number of 65/17 guns were mounted on Fiat 634 trucks" - Italian Truck-Mounted Artillery in action)

515 Guzzi Trasporto - photo is in fact Belgian FN - there are Italian ones here: http://www.italie1935-45.com/regio-e...guzzi-alce-500 name could be changed to Guzzi TriAlce https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moto_Guzzi_TriAlce
It was produced from 1940 (now 1/39)

524 Corazzata BB - the Italians used 305mm guns only until around 1937/38 (beginning of refit of Andrea Doria class)

525 Corazzata BB - photo should be 704 or 2004 - now it's probably 381mm (at least used as such by #523 unit)

564 Centro Radia OA - more appropriate as FO vehicle seems Carro Commando L40, built upon Semovente 47. It was turretless, open-top, armed with 8mm BMG (concealed as a gun). Icon would be of Semovente 1900/1901. Centro Radia command tanks had no AAMG anyway.

566 Carro M.41 OA, 567,715 SMV M.42 OA - seems, that both are in fact the same Carro Commando M.41. Proper photo is 16150 on the other hand. It was armed with single 13.2mm Breda (there was no twin 13.2mm BMG) and AAMG Breda 38 (Squadron/Signal book)

That's all.

DRG November 13th, 2015 09:57 PM

Re: Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.8.1)

Originally Posted by Pibwl (Post 832016)
That's all.

I'm going to hold you to that promise. I have quite enough to do as it is

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