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-   -   Question: HE Penetration (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=51498)

Warnevada February 8th, 2017 02:43 PM

HE Penetration
 
The weapon info shows 1:0 for penetration for hand grenades. Units are up against AFVs with 1 armor. After many shots, the fire results always show 0 penetration. Is there something I'm not understanding or is it not working right?

Mobhack February 8th, 2017 03:03 PM

Re: HE Penetration
 
HE penetration comes from the HE pen number, together with warhead size sometimes.

HE penetration is far less reliable than AP shot. And especially less likely for weapons with small warheads, and small HE Pen values.

So your hand grenade is unlikely to make its full value much. HE is not a first choice as an anti-tank munition - though large sizes have some utility (say, 150mm bricks and up).

I have had units do a * or 2 damage to little scout cars by flung hand grenades, without an assault happening (or a top hit on open topped half-tracks etc.) - but that is rarer than rocking horse dung. I'd guess that probably less than 1% would see a 1 penetration.

Warnevada February 13th, 2017 04:41 PM

Re: HE Penetration
 
This helps a lot, and also helps explain what looked odd with some AP fire as well.

It would be very useful if the various relationships between range, penetration number, warhead size and angle were documented somewhere. What would also be helpful is an explanation of the relationships between HEAT and APCR numbers and the various types of ammo a gun may have: HE, AP and SABOT.

Mobhack February 13th, 2017 05:48 PM

Re: HE Penetration
 
Those are details of the original SSI code (tweaked by us). As part of the NDA on their code, we cant talk about that detail.

In any case - its not something you can put in a shift table, its oodles and oodles of code with loads of if-then-else and random factors based on things like warhead size, weapon type, firer skill etc. You'd have to be a C programmer, not an end user.

We provide APCalc - that runs a test of 1000 shells of each type for each range cell sample. It provides an average "expected" result and the "best" shot of each 1000 sample - it says nothing about how many of those 1000 were so good!.

Other details are in the Mobhack help files, in the Weapons Tab section.

Other than that - for SP you need to learn as you go, as did real officers in combat. You will soon get an idea of what is likely to work, and what does not.

Warnevada February 20th, 2017 03:53 PM

Re: HE Penetration
 
That's too bad because it makes it hard to see if anything is wrong.

For example, I had an ATR with a penetration value of 4 fire five shots at a tank with an all-around armor value of 1 at a one hex range. All five shots hit and showed penetration with no asterisks, yet the tank acted as if nothing happened.

Mobhack February 20th, 2017 04:31 PM

Re: HE Penetration
 
Some shots will bounce. Smaller warhead size more so than larger.

If penetrated, smaller warhead size is less likely to kill crew and cause damage as it rattles about inside the AFV.

AT rifles aren't a particularly reliable way of killing tanks. If they do penetrate then sometimes they hit air inside the armoured box.

But then again, I have killed panthers by firing a 14.5 ATR in the side armour at 2 hexes. But the usual thing with them is a spotted and shot-up crew.

That's the thing about random numbers - you dont get many complaints when they roll in the user's favour, plenty when they don't.

DRG February 20th, 2017 05:07 PM

Re: HE Penetration
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Warnevada (Post 837343)
That's too bad because it makes it hard to see if anything is wrong.

For example, I had an ATR with a penetration value of 4 fire five shots at a tank with an all-around armor value of 1 at a one hex range. All five shots hit and showed penetration with no asterisks, yet the tank acted as if nothing happened.

If "All five shots hit and showed penetration with no asterisks" then there was no damage that affected the crew so of course the tank acted as if nothing happened.... nothing did. As Andy said we don't get many complaints when the random numbers roll in the user's favour, plenty when they don't and with this game the random numbers are what keeps it from being a predicate exercise and had SP been designed that way nobody would have developed it any further but it's the un-predictability that keeps things "interesting" but it also generates "bug" reports......there is nothing wrong. I'll bet if you had saved the game before that event then replayed it the next day we wouldn't be having this discussion because every time you start the game you get a new random number sequence and sometimes "strange" things happen.....sure an AT rifle with a 4 pen rating "should" take out a tank with 1 armour but at that range.....1 warhead size 1 armour there isn't much to choose from between yeah and nay when it comes to pen and damage

The "AT rifles" issue crops up at least once a year.......so you see the report, you see that there was a hit but in this case the random number generator "decided" you didn't hit crew....this thread started off with a question about hand grenades... now it's AT weapons ... You obviously think the game is flawed .....it's not, it's randomness is it's strength but it can be perplexing at time...that still doesn't mean its wrong. There is too many game variables between unit training, experience and just luck to provide any kind of chart with the "various relationships between range, penetration number, warhead size and angle" and even if we could the first time the game strayed outside the graph we'd get "bug" reports.

What you want is predictable results and that's not what this game does but that does not mean there is anything wrong with it.


Provide us with a save game using stock OOB's that shows a repeatable problem that anyone running it can see as well and we'll fix it otherwise you're just on the wrong side of an unlucky sequence of numbers

jivemi February 21st, 2017 07:43 AM

Re: HE Penetration
 
Yes. Slightly OT but IIRC had the Argentine Air Force set their fuses properly then four more British vessels would likely have been sunk. Instead their bombs (or missiles?) passed through the ships without exploding. Such is the unpredictability of war, which is reflected in the game. Play on, play on...

jp10 February 21st, 2017 12:20 PM

Re: HE Penetration
 
Further OT, I believe the bomb fuzing was because they were forced to make very low level attacks to avoid the ship's air defenses. If the ordnance does not have retardation devices to slow the bomb descent a long delay is the traditional solution to allow the plane to clear the blast area before detonation.

Spledge February 21st, 2017 09:27 PM

Re: HE Penetration
 
Even further OT, if one has a Soviet supply truck driven by an elderly malnourished civilian pressed into service and my Jagdpanther breaks through a hedgerow on his 3 o'clock at 100 meters away, no shot may need to be fired for the driver of the truck to croak.:)


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