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-   -   Censer and Incense (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=41089)

vfb November 1st, 2008 07:35 AM

Censer and Incense
 
I'm trying out Gath, and have thugged out some Kohens Gadols (Unit 1987).

Their Censer (516) looks nice, it has an area-1 Incense (517) effect that according to the DB is damage 10,AN, no MR.

But while the incense graphics appear in battle, it doesn't appear to do any damage:


8607 striking with weapon Censer. att20 def5^M
hitloc Kohen Gadol strikes Barbarian wl2 diff-4 -> 4^M
hitunit 8607 10773 dmg1 spec2097157 ba4^M
damage 16 on Barbarian, spec0x200005 ba4^M
NextWeapon Incense has aoe 1 anim 10156 5^M
blastsqr: unr8607 x27 y14 aoe1 dmg10 eff2003 spc8320 as10156 al5^M
8609 striking with weapon Short Sword. att15 def11^M

The Censer killed one barbarian in the square with the hit, but there were two others, and they didn't get affected at all.

Does it only work against undead or demons or something?

Kristoffer O November 1st, 2008 08:19 AM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
The censer has stun dmg, so it only makes your enemies cough :) No real damage.

vfb November 1st, 2008 08:33 AM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
Thanks! I see it now. It gets added the next battle turns to whoever is in the clouds.

Still, 10 unresistable fatigue is not too shabby if I had to beat up a Sphinx or something like that. Kind of situational though :).

Nikelaos November 1st, 2008 09:35 AM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
Lol that would be funny

Death by perfume fatigue XD

chrispedersen November 2nd, 2008 03:59 AM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vfb (Post 649694)
I'm trying out Gath, and have thugged out some Kohens Gadols (Unit 1987).

Their Censer (516) looks nice, it has an area-1 Incense (517) effect that according to the DB is damage 10,AN, no MR.

But while the incense graphics appear in battle, it doesn't appear to do any damage:


8607 striking with weapon Censer. att20 def5^M
hitloc Kohen Gadol strikes Barbarian wl2 diff-4 -> 4^M
hitunit 8607 10773 dmg1 spec2097157 ba4^M
damage 16 on Barbarian, spec0x200005 ba4^M
NextWeapon Incense has aoe 1 anim 10156 5^M
blastsqr: unr8607 x27 y14 aoe1 dmg10 eff2003 spc8320 as10156 al5^M
8609 striking with weapon Short Sword. att15 def11^M

The Censer killed one barbarian in the square with the hit, but there were two others, and they didn't get affected at all.

Does it only work against undead or demons or something?


The problem with the Gadols unit is that you will often end up diseasing or poisoning yourself, or units with you. I prefer to make sure these units dont end up in combat - or - replace their weapon with another.

That being said.. a D9 bless is... interesting.

Nikelaos November 2nd, 2008 08:19 AM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
Incense isn't a modable effect yet is it?

vfb November 2nd, 2008 10:28 AM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
Sure it is, for example Sombre's Skaven has new Censer Bearer units, who wield a Plague Censer, which has an AOE 3 poison Incense Cloud secondaryeffect.

I think chrispedersen may be confusing that with the stun-only Incense secondaryeffect on the Kohen Gadols' Censer, which does not have poison.

Gregstrom November 2nd, 2008 10:37 AM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
That would make sense, especially wrt the bit about harming your own units. The Kohen Gadol censer has no more chance of harming your own units than a Fire Brand does.

Sombre November 2nd, 2008 10:39 AM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
That depends if the cloud hangs around or not. Some secondaryeffects create clouds that persist over several rounds, for example ctis poison slings. But still, it would only stun them, not hurt them.

vfb November 2nd, 2008 10:56 AM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
That's exactly what the Kohan Gadol's Censer effect is, an aoe 1 cloud that lasts a couple (or 3) turns. It's a bit hard to see because it's green on green grass. It does cause friendly stun, but like Sombre says, it's really nothing to worry about. It's not like you're going to be fielding a whole bunch of Gadols.

Skaven Censer Bearers on the other hand ... well, probably a big D bless would actually pretty nice for them, if the secondaryeffect poison generates death bless afflictions. But they also need at least an N6 bless to stay alive in their own clouds.

Sombre November 2nd, 2008 11:08 AM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
[the following is entirely about Skaven Censer Bearers, NOT Kohen]

Yes, the secondaryeffect poison cloud is definitely improved by death bless. Unless of course you don't like afflicting/killing your own troops for some crazy unskavenlike reason.

Nature bless can help them survive the poison given off when they strike,.. but it's by no means a sure thing and nature doesn't really synergise with the unit, because it tends to die very quickly in combat due to lack of prot or high hp. The nastiest sensible bless on them offensively would be something like D6W9, or W9F9 (as always) if you don't want to rely on poison so much.

archaeolept November 2nd, 2008 01:47 PM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
poison does not benefit from death bless as far as I can tell.

Sombre November 2nd, 2008 01:50 PM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
What test did you run achaeo? Because in the tests I've run (poison arrows from sacreds, poison clouds from censers, poison cloud spell), it looked like it mattered.

chrispedersen November 2nd, 2008 01:53 PM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vfb (Post 649899)
Sure it is, for example Sombre's Skaven has new Censer Bearer units, who wield a Plague Censer, which has an AOE 3 poison Incense Cloud secondaryeffect.

I think chrispedersen may be confusing that with the stun-only Incense secondaryeffect on the Kohen Gadols' Censer, which does not have poison.

I'm not mistaking it. As I said, a D9 bless with the censer is ......interesting.

archaeolept November 2nd, 2008 01:59 PM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sombre (Post 649927)
What test did you run achaeo? Because in the tests I've run (poison arrows from sacreds, poison clouds from censers, poison cloud spell), it looked like it mattered.

i was testing d10 w/ hydras, and there was no way that afflictions were +400% or the like - the proof is that the d9 effect of diseasing does not appear (or, very rarely, that is). Now it could be it works w/ direct damage poison attacks - did the guys get diseased from d9?

Nikelaos November 2nd, 2008 03:08 PM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
the d9 bless is Death WEAPONS, my guess is that the hydras poison aura isn't counted as a weapon and so doesn't benefit from the d9 bless, however that doesn't mean it isn't affected by the affliction chance part of the bless.

Edi November 2nd, 2008 03:21 PM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
Death bless very likely has the same fire bless bug that replaces secondaryeffect with the bless weapon. So poison weapons become death weapons and there is no poison unless the weapon itself is dt poison.

vfb November 2nd, 2008 05:44 PM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chrispedersen (Post 649929)
Quote:

Originally Posted by vfb (Post 649899)
Sure it is, for example Sombre's Skaven has new Censer Bearer units, who wield a Plague Censer, which has an AOE 3 poison Incense Cloud secondaryeffect.

I think chrispedersen may be confusing that with the stun-only Incense secondaryeffect on the Kohen Gadols' Censer, which does not have poison.

I'm not mistaking it. As I said, a D9 bless with the censer is ......interesting.

Okay, I see what you mean. The AOE1 10AN stun damage gets replaced by AOE1 2AN MR physical damage. But there's no poison to "poison your own troops".

Sombre November 2nd, 2008 08:41 PM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
Archaeo: D9 causes disease specifically? Since when? I thought it just added 2 AN MR negates damage.

I never used D9 for the tests because as Edi suggested, I figured the death weapons effect would overwrite the censer weapons.

archaeolept November 2nd, 2008 10:46 PM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
it is a claimed side effect for d9. haven't tested it myself to know.

chrispedersen November 3rd, 2008 02:16 AM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vfb (Post 649983)
Quote:

Originally Posted by chrispedersen (Post 649929)
Quote:

Originally Posted by vfb (Post 649899)
Sure it is, for example Sombre's Skaven has new Censer Bearer units, who wield a Plague Censer, which has an AOE 3 poison Incense Cloud secondaryeffect.

I think chrispedersen may be confusing that with the stun-only Incense secondaryeffect on the Kohen Gadols' Censer, which does not have poison.

I'm not mistaking it. As I said, a D9 bless with the censer is ......interesting.

Okay, I see what you mean. The AOE1 10AN stun damage gets replaced by AOE1 2AN MR physical damage. But there's no poison to "poison your own troops".

True. But essentially what happens is you *can't* take a d9 bless unless you're very very careful. More often than not you end up diseased and afflicted yourself.

So like I said, I usually end up keeping the unit out of combat, not using a d9 bless, or replacing the censor with another weapon.

Edi November 3rd, 2008 04:30 AM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by archaeolept (Post 650021)
it is a claimed side effect for d9. haven't tested it myself to know.

The weapon bless death has a secondaryeffect of disease, which I think is of the MR resistable type. So the bless death is 2 AN resistible, with a check against disease on hit. The weapons data in the DB has been tested by modding those weapons into units so that you can see the secondary effects, so the disease bit is not just speculation.

Gregstrom November 3rd, 2008 04:35 AM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
From your db, it's the irresistible disease 143. I don't know if saving against the 2 points of AN would prevent the disease going off though.

Edi November 3rd, 2008 04:37 AM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
Addendum: I'm not sure which disease it is, resistable or non-resistable. The bless death weapon is 448, and the disease weapons are 143 (non-resistable) and 414 (resistable). I recently played a game with Helheim using a D9 bless and it did not seem that enemy units got diseased 100% of the time. Only around 75% to 95% of the time, depending on how good MR they had, so the bless death secondary is probably 414 and resistable.

Unfortunately it is not possible to display weapon data with shift-i the same way you can for units, so if there is more than one weapon with the same name and that name appears as a secondaryeffect, it becomes a guessing game. I do not always guess correctly and it looks like I have guessed incorrectly for the bless death in the past.

Sombre November 3rd, 2008 04:39 AM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
I had no idea about that. Learn something new every day.

vfb November 3rd, 2008 04:51 AM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
Whereas I am just totally confused.

So the secondary stun AOE effect of the Censer would be replaced with a D9 AOE AN2 MR attack, which has its own secondary disease effect? O_o

Good thing I didn't take a death bless with Gath, that's all I can say!

chrispedersen November 3rd, 2008 08:08 PM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vfb (Post 650061)
Whereas I am just totally confused.

So the secondary stun AOE effect of the Censer would be replaced with a D9 AOE AN2 MR attack, which has its own secondary disease effect? O_o

Good thing I didn't take a death bless with Gath, that's all I can say!

Yup. Like I say.. its.. interesting. You actually can take advantage of it if you're... devious.

And I hypothesize that you are not actually wording it perfectly correctly.

You get a D9 AoE AN2 MR attack; however what happens is that you get afflicted. Often diseased - but it I've also seen armloss and feeblemind. I think.

Sombre November 4th, 2008 04:29 AM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
You have a high chance at becoming afflicted from the damage, but then you /also/ have a chance at becoming diseased from the secondary effect of death weapons.

chrispedersen November 4th, 2008 11:28 PM

Re: Censer and Incense
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sombre (Post 650227)
You have a high chance at becoming afflicted from the damage, but then you /also/ have a chance at becoming diseased from the secondary effect of death weapons.

Yep. =) So what are a few good ways to take advantage of this nasty nasty truth =). There are a few I find really..... interesting = )


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