Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

Obviously I'm not talking about strategic ICBMs, but what about smaller ones like the Davy Crockett RR or the nuclear shells fired by the 8 incher?

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

Not really.
I've been trying for some time to simulate a Daisy Cutter and can't get anything particularly close. And for game purposes the blast damage is what would really matter.

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

Seems a bit overkill for a tactical game. :eek: But you could just set the 220mm FAE RkT to an insanely high penetration and kill value and put it on a custom unit using Mobhack.

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

Ha read about years ago & no chance, if I remember both are actually pretty rubbsh as explosives due to only just managng critical mass they relied on being a bit dirty & the radiation doing the killing.
The explosive element is probably modelable affecting 3-5 hexes across but what about the radiation.
Anyone not in a hard target wthin 10 hexes of should die the next turn.
Those say 11-15 hexes away should suffer big moral issues to represent nasseau & die in say 3-5 turns
16-20 hexes similar but not so bad etc.

Also seem to remember they were wildly inacurate & laughably because it never occured to anyone unless the wind was blowing in the right direction the firer was toast as he was within range of the radiation.

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

Nuclear and chemical weapons are completely outside the scope of the game engine.

Andy

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

My immediate thought on this was press end turn and just as the modified "nuclear" artillery started to fall pull the plug on your computer.

That would simulate the effects perfectly.

:)

Don

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

That fits perfectly with the whole M.A.D concept doesn't it ? Though admittedly it's harder on the PBI than the theorists. ( but it always is )

If the other guy thinks like a chess player he will never really understand what a poker player is up to. :)

Don

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

Actually for purposes of a tactical game the radiation effects are negligible.
If you're close enough to, and unprotected from, radiation effects enough to take 10,000 rads (enough to kill you in minutes) the blast and thermal radiation (heat) will have turned you into paste or one of those famous shadows on the wall long before radiation poisoning is an issue.
3000 rads will kill you in about 48 hours, but WinSPMBT battles don't last that long.
As to the psychological effects on troops, it's really a matter of how well informed and trained they are. If they're prone to panic from a nuclear blast they're just as likely to panic from getting nailed by a B-52 ArcLite or a battery of TOS-1 Buratino's.

All that said, I agree with Don...but I'd press the "off" switch on my computer rather then the "end turn" one.

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

No nuclear weapons god forbid of any kind in this game ever please.

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

The Neutron Bomb was the only modern era and I believe last tactical nuke we considered. It was determined that though it was very effective in not causing damage to infrastructure especially in an urban setting and very deadly to enemy soldiers the problem was you would've had highly motivated troops in undamaged equipment running around with nothing to lose at least not for about 14-30 days depending on distance from the blast area. The 8 inch versions tested in the mid to late fifties would wipe out most standard maps in game use and forget about your core units moving on to gain further experience in your next battle in a campaign-they'd be dead by then. There are numerous pictures on the web of USA troops within about 10 miles of those artillery delivered nukes going off in Nevada or New Mexico. The long term outcome was not very good for most of them. I believe a major settlement was reached with the survivors in the early eighties I think. I'm glad we never went there from the air, ground or sea.

Regards,
Pat

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

Alternatively:

1.) Take your laptop outside
2.) Pour a gallon of gasoline on it
3.) Throw a lighted match to the gasoline pool

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

Although I find it peculiar that players of a game that inherently involves the killing of other human beings get a sudden case of 'green peace' at the mention of nuclear weapons, I have to agree that they doing really belong here. Not because they are 'immoral', but because of scale. Even the smaller ones would do too much damage on SPMBT-sized maps for such a scenario to be playable.

I have never understood why burning someone to death in a sealed tank was just good clean fun, but flash frying them with a nuc burst invokes horror.

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

Taking into consideration the other post on chemical weapons, reducing visibility/mobility etc... of your troops would be reasonable, since operating in a fallout zone would be similar to a contaminated zone.
As for scenarios, WWIII a good one seeing as what little info on WP plans included tacical NBC weapons. Mind you sources state that the WP also had better preparation and training than NATO.

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

All this talk of the theoretical inclusion of nuclear weapons within the game's scope has piqued my interest on how the combat interaction between opposing NBC protected forces would play out. I believe at some point during the cold war the blue side had concluded that should the red side invade the only way to stop their overwhelming numerical superiority would be the use of tactical enriched plutonium metal warheads on a limited scale. No doubt in response to espionage produced knowledge inducing documents the red side equipped their T-55 tanks with a rudimentary "fallout" air filter so that the crews could survive long enough to perform the initial blitzkrieg. I have also read about both red and blue preparations to fight on a chemical battlefield, the hypothetical interaction within this instance also interests me.

Do you guys know about any websites, both fiction and non-fiction, that feature NBC combat, preparations, tactics and strategy or equipment?

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

This might be a start on the equipment side, it's from the TWIGHTLIGHT 2000 game series. It's a role play PC based post WWIII game. Game issues aside, the background, capabilities and weapons overview are pretty accurate, enough so that I've ref'd this site where info is scarce on a piece of equipment. He has spent a great deal of time in this area again as compared to the normal defence industry and news sites I use. Game stats might be of some use to you you developers out there...maybe!?!
http://www.pmulcahy.com/
I will or you can contact him via email, but stay within his email guidelines within the FAQ section. Since the TWIGHTLIGHT 2000 game is Post WWIII, it would be make sense to assume he had (Or others.) had to have done a fair amount research about the NBC world. I would've have. Also I recommend globalsecurity.com for real world data, I would expect some of those FMs they normally have are now declassified and available.

Regards,
Pat

I'm just silly fast when I want to be...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...olicy/army/fm/
Complete list of USA Field Manuals the third one down looks like a start point.

It is.

And for some thing more, I've heard of this game that incorperates all this thread and another has brought up. Maybe somebody here knows more about it and it's legacy games.
http://www.matrixgames.com/news/188/...hpoint.Germany!

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

Tactics?

Duck

Not so silly as it sounds a typical strategic nuke would blow you off your feet at 4 or 5 miles, a big boy try 15 miles if there was nothing between you & it.

With the baby tactical nukes that started this discusion they are low yeild only equivalent to about 20 or 30 tons of TNT if I remember correctly. As I said in my original post here its not that big depends on the radiation to do the killing.

Sensible tactics fire them & run like hell with as much arty as you can muster to cover your tracks.

Your not running from the radiation your running from the guys intent on killing you because they have been told they are dead already. Avoid em for an hour or so till the nasseau kicks in & you should be alright as they wont be able to put up a fight.

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

Well since YOU brought this up perhaps you could point to the post that elicited this 'green peace' remark ...

??

What we said it's beyond the scope of the game that deals with an maximum playing area of 8x10 km and will always be beyond the scope of the game despite yearly efforts to drag it in. If this were a strategic game covering a much larger area it might be an option but on this size map it's a waste of time


Don

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

John,
Your numbers are about right, and as I had pointed out from some past readings and as I posted earlier about the Neutron Bomb and this whole topic(s) for the troops not killed outright, it's the pissed off I'm going to be dead within a month (Or less.), far from home troops that are now HIGHLY motivated to quote Gunny Vanderee, will want to "get sum!!", no thanks, that's one of the reasons why we abandoned the above weapons program altogether and destroyed what we had in the mid 90's. Russia has done the same I believe under the same treaty, primarily though because it was felt that this weapon would actually lead to the use of conventional battlefield field nukes. The best is first, you can substitute other nukes here as well as all produce radiation, this was just the nastiness one of the tactical nukes.
http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/a...-aug/snow.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/395689.stm
http://www.thewednesdayreport.com/twr/neutron-bomb.htm
http://home.netcom.com/~ncoic/n_bomb86.htm

I have to agree with some of the analysis given in the refs, that our advances in ATGW and tanks would've acted as a bigger deterrent along with the fears the use of these weapons both nuclear and chemical would've just lead to the strategic level-again as I've stated earlier...game over! The noble experiment was tried in a game called "Sixth Fleet" by SSI, you had a turn one option only from either side to use a tactical nuke on an opposing carrier. The carrier and submarine firing unit were taken off the board. Pretty optimistic that it would stop at one, I thought that when playing it back in high school along with "Red Star White Star" that had a nuke option as well. And something no one really talked about is the effects EMP would have on modern equipment. My feeling is play on with what we have besides, there are some cool things yet to come including the new TOW with double the range I'm following and is almost to approval for production.

Regards,
Pat

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

I also recall the original Harpoon computer game allowing for nuclear release and the launch of nuclear missiles. If one of those got through your air defense, you could pretty much write off the ship that got hit...

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

Only the ship that got hit?! :eek:

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

Well, the SSN-19 (P-700 Granit), which was one of the larger anti-ship missiles I remember using "only" had a 500 kt warhead. From http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/bomb/sf.../1mtblast.html, it seems that a 1 megaton surface blast would have a blast radius of maybe 7.5 miles, so a 500 kt warhead would have a rather smaller radius (maybe 4-5?). And consider that we're talking about ship formations here, which can spread across several miles. I remember the ship that got hit being totaled, and I think maybe some of the nearby ships would take blast damage, but this was all a very long time ago (early 1990s). In fact, predating the original Steel Panthers...

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

Just like chemical and biological weapons,IMO some are seeking a solution to a non-existent problem. This is a tactical scale wargame.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. With FAE's,cluster bombs and MLRS artillery,SPMBT can rain immense amounts of death and destruction on an opponent as it is presently designed,and that is "enough" for this long time advocate of the Steel Panthers series.

The beauty of this wargame is it is totally customisable. If one needs an "overkill" fix,pit the 1946 Red Army against the USAEUR forces from mid 70's. M60 tanks and M551A1 Sheridans can make short work of the enemy,even being out-number 5 to 1,and especially when backed up by an 8 inch howitzer battalion and a Cav squadron 155 howitzer battery.

p.s. I think we in the 2/11 ACR could have done a pretty good job in reality as well against the T-62 and T-55 tanks that faced us on the other side of the fence in the Meinegen gap region of Germany in 1974.

:D

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

Well this will be it for me here, I agree we don't need these or chemical weapons here. The arty I agree can cause enough grief and sometimes for the user as well. I think I proved my case that the CM weapons as modeled are under rated as compared the reality of the real world by using several USA references in the great debate on CM arty almost 2yrs ago now. See the thread by the same name started by IMP, also there's another one from about 5yrs ago dealing with the same topic. The weapon I'm most familiar with beside the D5 TRIDENT Msl. is the BGM-109A TLAM-N w/W80 200kt warhead. Maybe someone can break down the math of the games standard map size meters = kilometers (See the time I'm just to Dam...tired to do the math.). Take that number of kms and compare it to table one of ref one and besides Dons no way no how basic answer you'll see why it's impractical for this game overall. Continue down the tables and it only gets worse, EPM, Radcon, Fallout etc. Based on the above weapon I mentioned at 200kt with a 1.6km total destruction zone, I'm thinking game over in what would have to be a legitimate weapon to be game included if the nuclear option was allowed.
http://docrob.tripod.com/nukes.html
http://missilethreat.com/cruise/id.1...ise_detail.asp
http://missilethreat.com/cruise/
http://www.ausairpower.net/TE-Cruise-Missiles-1985.html

Good Night!
Regards,
Pat

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

Can this be put into the dead horses bin, so its carcass won't be beaten any more? AFAIAC, nuclear weapons don't belong in SPMBT, shouldn't be in SPMBT, and I hope never to see them.

troopie

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

:tough: :deadhorse: :yield: :clap:

Regards,
Pat

Re: Could some nuclear weapons be simulated in WinSPMBT?
 

+1:up: