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US Heavy Tanks Icon set 1.1
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Hello everyone. I read Mark's "Kitty Killer" thread years ago and have wanted to create these large developmental heavy tanks. I have finally done it. I hope everyone enjoys these historical vehicles. They were a pleasure to create for myself and the community. The vehicles in this set are the T28 Super Heavy Tank, T29, T30, T32, and the T34 Heavy Tanks. The M6 Heavy Tank has its own thread. Enjoy everyone!
The "Kitty Killer" thread: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com//showthread.php?t=34738 https://s26.postimg.cc/9dg04xya1/T28...eavy_Tanks.jpg |
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Since we allow " what if " to the end of 1946 I will consider adding ones that would conceivably be available for field trials up to 12/46 in the Prototype UC
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Thank you Monty.
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If you decide to add them and we get some "what if" scenarios or campaigns, I look forward to playing them. Thanks for the consideration Don.
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It would be helpful to have the dates these things were available for testing. Since there seems to be some interest in this I'm sure someone has the specs
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Check the "Kitty Killer" thread. I believe there are dates there plus stats.
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If you need more than that Mark or I should be able to find the answer. Not sure what Mark's source is, but mine is the R.P. Hunnicut book Firepower.
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Firepower by Hunnicutt says:
14 SEP 1944: OCM 25117 recommends development of a new heavy tank series with four pilots. They are 2 x T29 (105mm T5E1 Gun) 2 x T30 (155mm T7 Gun) 7 DEC 1944: US Army Ground Forces (AGF) recommends that Ordnance develop a modified Pershing with heavier armor due to success of the M4A3E2 "Jumbo". The "interim" solution was to produce the T26E5 "Jumbo" Pershing with thicker armor and a modified final drive with a lower gear ratio and the ultimate solution being a new design (aka T32). 8 FEB 1945: OCM 26606 recommends construction of four pilots of a heavy assault tank using as many M26 pershing components as possible to be the "objective" assault tank. The tank is designated T32. 1 MAR 1945: OCM 26825 recommends procurement of 1,200 T29 heavy tanks. MAR 1945: T32 pilot production approved. 10 APR 1945: T32 mockup almost completed; and 80% of drawings for the pilots had been released. 12 APR 1945: 1,152 T29 were approved for procurement. Late APR 1945: Four additional T29 series pilots were authorized, with one of them getting the 120mm T53 Gun and being designated T34. 17 MAY 1945: OCM 27662 recommends that two T30 Pilot tanks be equipped with the 120mm T53 Gun, derived from the 120mm AA Gun, and so designated as T34 Heavy Tank. 31 May 1945: T34 pilot production approved. 9 AUG 1945: OCM 28680 recommends that T32 Pilots #3 and #4 be completed to a modified design (T32E1) with rolled front hull armor plate, no bow machine gun and the drivers' hatches were changed to a pivoting design, allowing them to be opened without intefering with a traversing turret. AUGUST 1945: World War II Semi-Formally Ends with Surrender of Japan. Program significantly cut back -- it may have been actually cut back after V-E Day. More research at National Archives is needed. 23 AUG 1945: OCM 28848 approves actually building ten T29 pilots for postwar evaluation. DEC 1945: The first T29 Pilot #1 is redesignated T29E1 and diverted to General Motors for the development of a modified Allison V-1710 engine as a tank engine. LATE 1945: T30 power train changed from Wartime Ford GAC to the air cooled Continental AV-1790-3 engine. 15 JAN 1946: T32 Pilot #1 completed and shipped to Aberdeen. 19 APR 1946: T32 Pilot #2 completed and shipped to Aberdeen. 14 May 1946: T32 Pilot #3 (T32E1) completed and shipped to Aberdeen. 19 JUN 1946: T32 Pilot #4 (T32E1) completed and shipped to Aberdeen. 10 JUL 1947: OCM 31654 reduces T29 pilots to just eight. 24 JUL 1947: OCM 31668 authorizes diversion of one T30 pilot as the T30E1, to test out a semi-automatic power assisted loader. (You still needed to place the shell on a ramming tray). OCT 1947: First T29 arrives at Aberdeen (T29E1) 1 APRIL 1948: OCM 32107 designates the T29 Pilot #2 with the new T5 Turret as the T29E2. It had a MIT-designed computing gun sight that was tied into a hydraulic traverse/elevation system. APRIL 1948: Second T29 Arrives at Aberdeen, along with first T30. MAY 1948: Third T29 Arrives at Aberdeen. This tank was equipped with the T31E1 rangefinder and was designated T29E3. The T31E1 was a 9 foot stereoscopic rangefinder. |
Re: US Heavy Tanks Icon set 1.0
From Kitty Killers:
T29 Specs: 6 man crew Combat Weight: 70.75 tons HULL Upper Front: 174mm effective Lower Front: 132mm effective Front Sides: 76mm effective Rear Sides: 51mm effective Upper Rear: 52mm effective Lower Rear: 40mm effective Top: 38mm effective Front Floor: 25mm effective Rear Floor: 13mm effective TURRET Gun Shield: 203-279mm effective Front: 206mm effective Sides: 127mm effective Rear: 102mm effective Top: 38mm effective 105mm Gun T5E2 Loading: Manual (6 rds/min with 2 loaders) Stablizer: None Vision: T143E1 Telescope M10E5 Periscope 1 x .50 Caliber M2 HB Flexible AA on commanders hatch 2 x .50 Caliber M2 HB Coaxial 1 x .30 Caliber M1919A4 Bow Mount Ammo Load: 63 Rounds 105mm 2420 rounds .50 Caliber 2500 rounds .30 caliber ----------------------------------------------- T29E3 Specs: 6 man crew Combat Weight: 72 tons Speed: 22 MPH HULL Upper Front: 174mm effective Lower Front: 132mm effective Front Sides: 76mm effective Rear Sides: 51mm effective Upper Rear: 52mm effective Lower Rear: 40mm effective Top: 38mm effective Front Floor: 25mm effective Rear Floor: 13mm effective TURRET Gun Shield: 203-279mm effective Front: 206mm effective Sides: 127mm effective Rear: 102mm effective Top: 38mm effective 105mm Gun T5E1 Loading: Manual (6 rds/min with 2 loaders) Stablizer: None Vision: T31E1 Range Finder T93E2 Telescope M10E5 Periscope 1 x .50 Caliber M2 HB Flexible AA on commanders hatch 2 x .50 Caliber M2 HB Coaxial 1 x .30 Caliber M1919A4 Bow Mount Ammo Load: 63 Rounds 105mm 2420 rounds .50 Caliber 2500 rounds .30 caliber --------------------------------------------- T30 Specs 6 man crew Combat Weight: 71.3 tons Speed: 22 MPH HULL Upper Front: 174mm effective Lower Front: 132mm effective Front Sides: 76mm effective Rear Sides: 51mm effective Upper Rear: 52mm effective Lower Rear: 40mm effective Top: 38mm effective Front Floor: 25mm effective Rear Floor: 13mm effective TURRET Gun Shield: 203-279mm effective Front: 206mm effective Sides: 127mm effective Rear: 102mm effective Top: 38mm effective 155mm Gun T7 Loading: Manual with hoist and spring rammer (2 rds/min with 2 loaders) Stablizer: None Vision: T143E1 Telescope M10E9 Periscope 1 x .50 Caliber M2 HB Flexible AA on commanders hatch 1 x .50 Caliber M2 HB Coaxial 1 x .30 Caliber M1919A4 Bow Mount Ammo Load: 34 Rounds 155mm 2200 rounds .50 Caliber 2500 rounds .30 caliber --------------- Statistics of 155mm T7 Gun: 40 calibers 2 rounds/minute with two loaders It was never provided with an AP shot as far as I can tell; but I would imagine a 95 pound HE shell would mess up any tank's day; and given the calibre of the gun, a HEAT round from it would be truly terrifying. ------------------- T34 Specs 6 man crew Combat Weight: 71.8 tons Speed: 22 MPH HULL Upper Front: 174mm effective Lower Front: 132mm effective Front Sides: 76mm effective Rear Sides: 51mm effective Upper Rear: 52mm effective Lower Rear: 40mm effective Top: 38mm effective Front Floor: 25mm effective Rear Floor: 13mm effective TURRET Gun Shield: 203 to 279mm effective Front: 184mm effective Sides: 127mm effective Rear: 203mm effective Top: 38mm effective 120mm Gun T53 Loading: Manual (5 RPM with 2 loaders) Stablizer: None 1 x .50 Caliber M2 HB Flexible AA on commanders hatch 1 x .50 Caliber M2 HB Coaxial 1 x .30 Caliber M1919A4 Bow Mount Vision: T143E2 Telescope M10E10 Periscope Ammo Load: 34 Rounds 120mm 2090 rounds .50 Caliber 2500 rounds .30 caliber ---------------------- 120mm Gun T53 Specs: 60 Calibers 5 RPM, two loaders AP Shot: 198mm @ 30 degrees @ 914m 173mm @ 30 deg @ 1829m HVAP Shot: 381mm @ 30 deg @ 914m 318mm @ 30 deg @ 1829 m ------------------------------ T32 Specs 5 man crew Combat Weight: 60 tons Speed: 22 MPH HULL Upper Front: 216mm effective Lower Front: 184mm effective Sides: 76mm effective Rear: 52mm effective Top: 38mm effective Front Floor: 25mm effective Rear Floor: 13mm effective TURRET Gun Shield: 298mm effective Front: 309mm effective Sides: 199 to 154mm effective Rear: 152mm effective Top: 25mm effective 90mm Gun T15E2 Loading: Manual (4 RPM) Stablizer: None 1 x .50 Caliber M2 HB Flexible AA on commanders hatch 1 x .30 Caliber M1919A4 Coaxial 1 x .30 Caliber M1919A4 Bow Mount Ammo Load: 54 Rounds 90mm 550 rounds .50 Caliber 4000 rounds .30 caliber Vision: M77E1 or M71E4 Telescope M10E4 Periscope -------------------------- 90mm T15E1/2 Gun Data: 70 Calibers Penetration: T43 AP Shot (APBC-T; 3,200 ft/sec) 132mm @ 30 degree angle @ 500 yds 127mm @ 30 degree angle @ 1000 yds 124mm @ 30 degree angle @ 1500 yds 122mm @ 30 degree angle @ 2000 yds T44 HVAP Shot (APCR-T; 3,750 ft/sec) 244mm @ 30 degree angle @ 500 yds 221mm @ 30 degree angle @ 1000 yds 196mm @ 30 degree angle @ 1500 yds 173mm @ 30 degree angle @ 2000 yds ------------------ Superheavy Tank T28 (105mm GMC T95) 4 man crew Speed: 4 Combat Weight: 95 tons HULL Gun Shield: 292mm effective Upper Front: 305mm effective Lower Front: 266mm effective Upper Sides: 118mm effective Lower Sides: 152mm effective Rear: 52mm effective Top: 38mm effective Floor: 25mm effective 105mm Gun T5E1 1 x .50 Caliber in AA Mount Loading: Manual (4 RPM) Stablizer: None Ammo Load: 62 Rounds 105mm 660 rounds .50 Caliber |
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Yes and according to that thread only the T28 was completed before the end of the period covered by SPWW2. I am NOT adding them to the MBT OOB's so as far viable prototypes for spww2 then the T28 seems to be it
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To put some of the delay imposed by going from a wartime to peacetime schedule into context, the development of the US Navy 3"/50 Mk 27/33/34 mount was slowed significantly.
While the first prototype was rushed into firing ranges by 1 SEP 1945, it took until 1948 for it to end up at sea in quantity. I have a document somewhere in my huge National Archives trawls saying that they imposed an arbitrary 24 to 36 month delay in the development program around September 1945 to "take the time" to develop a debugged product ready for fleet use. |
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Just a thought.
Depending on the "what if" scenario: If the "what if" is the war did not end in 1945 or Patton got his wish, the US attacked the Soviets to push them out of Europe, these heavies would have gone production as soon as possible. |
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Well, should I make a T28 also?
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Yes, please!
Zinryus did an icon of it long ago, I hacked together a winter and desert version of his icon (see attached), but it would be super nice to see your rendition. :D |
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per Hunnicutt: 14 SEP 1944: OCM 25117 recommends development of a new heavy tank series (T29) with four pilots. The reason that the T29 series "frankensteined" into so many variants is because AGF saw a chance to test all sorts of new technologies, such as fire control, transmissions and new engines to succeed the wartime Ford GAA/GAN/GAC. In a wartime situation, all of the T29+ onwards tanks would have the same engine situation, a Ford GAC V12; and the only difference between all of them would be the main gun (105mm Hi Velocity, 120mm Hi Velocity, or 155mm Moderate Velocity) and ammunition stowage plus modifications to the gun sighting system (different reticles for different ammunition ballistics). I once did a study of equipment lead times at my website: LINK Basic lead times for US tanks from rough start of design to production models rolling off the lines is: M3 Medium: 397 days M4 (75mm) Medium: 441 days T14 Assault: 472 days M3 Stuart Light: 285 days M5 Stuart Light: 313 days M24 Chaffee Light: 397 days M6 Heavy: 939 days T23 Medium: 579 days T26 Pershing: 550 days Giving an average of 486~ days or a median of 441 days. Putting those together and averaging them gives us 463~ days. Given a 14 SEP 1944 "Go" order for the T29 series, you'd see the first production quality T29s rolling off the production lines around 21 December 1945. Time to combat was roughly the following in the US Army: M24 Chaffee: First Production April 1944, issued in France in November 1944: 214~ days. M26 (T26E3) Pershing: First Production November 1944, issued to ETO in January 1945: 61~ days. For an average/median time to combat of 137~ days. A "rush job" deployment as with the Pershing means they arrive in the ETO around 20 February 1946; while a more leisurely Chafee style deployment means ETO arrival 23 July 1946. |
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Alright, I opened this can of worms I will put the lid on it by creating a T28. The M103 is on my list also. That would complete the US heavies.
Yep, much sooner and ready for action! |
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Here is my version of the T28 Super Heavy Tank. I only did it in green to start. If you want me to be complete the set after your review let me know. Then I will add it to the US Heavy Icon set. Don't want to step on any toes of the makers of the other version of the T28.
http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/...psrjx1l6ih.png |
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Anyone know when the E3 variant was developed exactly? |
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This whole thread is getting confused and now I am dealing with various "what-if" interpretations and I already have more than enough game work scheduled to keep Andy and I busy without this.
I said according to the original thread that only the T28 was completed before the end of the period covered by SPWW2........and it seems in typical US "M1" fashion there **may** ( but I have been unable to confirm....) be TWO T28's........this latest Icon and This... .http://www.vbaddict.net/wot/tanks/2_..._prototype.png which appears to only exist in WOT.....but IDK all I do know is I seem to be spending a lot of time chasing information on ghosts. The info I have found so far indicates that the T28 Heavy was completed in December 1945 which means if it had shipped right away might have been rolling down a road in Europe in maybe April 1946....assuming it didn't have to cross a bridge in which case it better have snorkel gear or it didn't fall off it's transporter https://i0.wp.com/ritastatusreport.l...408&crop&ssl=1https://i1.wp.com/ritastatusreport.l...408&crop&ssl=1 There are very good reasons why Eisenhower rejected the damn things. |
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http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1500037048 |
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World of Tanks has a lot of interesting vehicles for sure, but they are a terrible place for reference materials. Most of those, like the T28 Prototype are pure fiction that Wargaming.net created.
Those are nice Don, I was going to make the desert and winter ones also, but you beat me to it. |
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http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Tank:A68_T28_Prototype and it says: It is generally agreed the T28 Prototype as it exists in the game is considered to be a fabrication based on liberties taken with various T28/T95 program proposals. Basically, it appears the WOT people took this image (see attached) from Hunnicutt's Firepower of a very early design concept for a anti-fortification tank with a turret; and combined it with the design ethos of US tank destroyers to create a fictional fantasy unit. |
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I have added the T28 Super Heavy Tank to the US Heavy Tank Icon set. The updated file is at the beginning of this thread version 1.1. Enjoy
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Just curious...is this the line drawing you worked from ?? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1500133419 |
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No worries at all. Yes it is. I thought it was challenging to get its shape to look right. But an enjoyable icon to create.
No, I used a drawing and photos out of the book Firepower. But that looks really good too. Only differences are the locations of the moveable cranes. This particular drawing has them both mounted in their front positions. Mine had them mounted on their right side positions. They were designed to be repositioned around the vehicle as needed, when working on the outer set of tracks. They are removable and can be towed behind the vehicle for transportation or bridge crossings, etc. |
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The only reason I asked is drawings can differ slightly but BECAUSE it's a unique shape and I was admiring it something seemed a bit off.....it seemed too short.....when I checked the LxW ratio of the drawing it's close to 1.700......the Icon is 1.600 when the ratio of the top upper left fender to the lower right bottom fender is checked---- the back roof needs to be stretched by 3 pixels
This is 2x size for clarity..flick back and forth between the drawing and these examples. Your original is the top one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1500135007 |
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I got my dimensions from Firepower. It gives great information. What you are referring to is exactly what was so challenging about this icon.. Trying to get it to look right within it's own dimensions was a pain. The last thing I could have tried to stretch the superstructure 1 more pixel was the front fender track connectors. I could have not gave it a pixel forward and stretched the entire vehicle that one pixel.
http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/...psgkrxvmij.jpg |
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I believe that with your stretched icon, you should have not stretched the engine covers, but the top of the hull. The space between the TC hatch and gunners hatch is where I think it looks short. That is where I tried and tried to get more length.
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Or maybe a combination of 2 on the top and 1 with the engine covers? But, if you follow the dimensions stated in Firepower now the icon is too big. Lol. Either a challenging but fun piece to model nonetheless. Good eye Don.
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Straight dimensions can be misleading. The final test is your own eye. They may not be measuring from where you need it measured from to create the Icon when the Icons only 30 pixels wide and each pixel represent 6x6 =36 square inches of the surface. I've been down this road before...a hull is "built" and it's correct by the data but it just looks off when compared to a drawing or model and that one just looked too short when the ratio was checked against that and other drawings of the vehicle
a pixel more on the roof and one or two on the back engine might do it. I just tried a quick stretch to see what it took to match more closely that drawing. The distance between the two hatches seemed OK at first glance but you may be right, another couple pixels there a and *maybe" one more on the engine cover might do it EDIT..... yes I think you are correct about the roof between the hatches as being the more correct solution and two not three pixels...the bottom one is the "roof edit" of 2 pixels http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1500142762 |
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The nice thing about Hunnicut is that he gives lengths with and without gun over hang. But, I agree completely with your icon creation steps. I box my dimensions, outline the hull, rough details, then add dimension ie, shading, shadows etc, then adjust as needed by eye.
I even thought of stretching the superstructure forward a pixel and not having such a large open area between the tracks. Heck if I would have done both those things i have thought we would only be 1 pixel difference. Lol |
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The open area between the tracks at the front looks as close as you are going to get. The proportions can be brought in line to the eye on the roof between the hatches....and maybe an extra pixel over the engine but it's potato-potatoe
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It looks great Don! Have you tried to gain the two pixels from the track connectors on the fenders, possibly the structure offset, or maybe even shorten the gun barrel by a pixel to see if I can get the superstructure to look better and still retain our dimensions? It only has one problem, it looks huge stretched those 3 pixels. Oh, the horror! Hahaha. I haven't had the time to try those just yet.
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As I said, 3 was too much, two seems better, It shows the LxW proportions a bit closer. 3 looked better at first compared to the original but 2 on the roof seems to be the best when you look between the Icon and the drawing. Part of the "problem" is that vehicle is just so much wider than any other in the game. The length of the gun when the proprtions are check with the extra two on the roof is as close as you are going to get...2.497 vs 2.467....at that scale, bang on the money
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True true.
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OFFICE, CHIEF OF ORDNANCE - DETROIT 1945-1946 PRODUCTION SCHEDULES AND ESTIMATES SECTION I FULL TRACKED VEHICLES Which I found today at the US National Archives II in College Park, MD today: The approved program as of 31 May 1945 was for: The first 25 T29 Heavy tanks to roll off the lines from DETROIT TANK ARSENAL in May 1946; followed by a steady buildup to 175 vehicles a month by July 1946; until the order of 1,152 vehicles was fulfilled. |
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All in next release
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1509895515 |
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Just so the Brits don't feel left out of the party.......
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1510439737 |
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Very nice, the Tortoise. I will strike it from my to do list. Thanks for the effort Don.
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Those and 300+ more................
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Very nice
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And continuing with the Theme I built T14's as well
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1510607790 |
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That was also on my list.
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What is that bottom one on your screenshot of the installed heavies Don? T25?
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Yes. The M44 AUV is also added as is the M38 but only the one with the M24 turret..( I named it M38E1 Wolfhound) the main version did nothing different in the game.....the one with the 75 is more interesting
This is what's in for next time. I'm moving on to other issues now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1511633140 MORE than enough toys to play with for the handful of people who would be interested |
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Thanks Don.
Do I understand your above list correctly you created a M44 AUV icon? I have begun to create one after I finished my M59 set. |
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Yes Joe, that's what ". The M44 AUV is also added" means.......:re:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1512275707 |
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