Hue city 1967-68
 

Dear community map makers,

Has anyone here ever tackled a Hue city map or does anyone here know of one in existence?

If not, then are there any good research materials - detailed US Army maps, photographs from the air of the city perhaps? What I've found so far does not really pass muster.

Regards,

Monty

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

To my knowledge no WinSPMBT maps for the area exist and map making isn't my forte.

It would be interesting to try a really long scenario that covers the initial NVA/VC attack followed by the counterattack.

https://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/...ile-losing-war

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

I am taking / took a stab at it. To scale (1 hex is 50metres) things just don't end up looking all that pretty. You just can't fit in all the buildings or side streets. I may take a stab at one (probably more than one) map that is not to scale. It is a big project!

If anyone wants to take a look at what I've done so far then let me know. If anyone here is better at making maps than I am and they fancy a go at what I've made they are more than welcome to!

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Consider, a company sized scenario, advancing against a neighborhood.

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

That works too. I'm almost 3/4 of the way through my big map. I've been working on it the last five days.

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

While a company sized scenario in a neighborhood would make sense from the point of view on 50m wide roads (one hex) and the buildings in the map set, for the most part there's isn't really a lot of variety in the map icons. You have basically European and Arabic choices. No French influenced Indochinese :) That being the case a neighborhood map would be pretty generic.

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Here it is!

A map of the citadel and surrounding environs (on all sides) on the biggest scale allowed by the map editor.

It took a lot of work and many days but it is done. I hope it comes in handy.

I'd say it is fairly accurate.

Not all the trees are in place and a couple of streams are missing here and there - no reference material I had was reliable enough - and some of the buildings are an odd shape but this is as good as it is going to get in SPMBT at present.

Anyone else fancies a go at editing this monster can have a go. Feel free.

Screenshots welcome!

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Just took a look at the map, all I can say is ...
WOW
Very nice work!

When I get the time I'll work on a scenario to make use of it.

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Thanks!

Here is a revised version with extra text in the southern part of town (Uni now shown) as well as adjustments to MACV compound.

Feel free to make cosmetic improvements to the map - add in some more nice little details - if you would like.

If you want to add map text you'll have to delete some hamlet labels but I don't think that will be too much of a problem as they do not all need to be named. I just got a little carried away. Some of the detail to the south of the railway line is a bit off as my better maps did not go that far south.

I don't know all that much about the course of the battle but I have a general idea about what happened. I'm doing some reading now.

I do know that Airmobile elements came in from the West to prevent a break out and interdict reinforcement (I think we'd need another map for that part of the battle though and to be honest I'm a little worn out after that last effort).

I wish you the best of luck designing a scenario/scenarios!

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Lovely map. I've added it to the upgrade files as #355

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Consider a campaign that utilizes the entire map but moves from battle to battle on that map. The battle for Hue ( as you know ) lasted over a month. You could use the entire map for some or snip it into smaller map sections for a specific engagements using the cut and paste feature of the extended map editor

Don

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

It never fails, I always seem to find things after the fact

classified Map of Hue - 1968 (Scale: 1:12,500)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/13476480@N07/5322319207

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1459777553

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Thank you! That is a real honour!

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

This was one of my reference maps. I found three good ones, used the map utility for the contouring and then compared and contrasted the old maps with the new ones to see what was/wasn't there in 68. I also used Google Earth to check out vegetation, which I again compared and contrasted to the military maps.

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Here is a map of the area West of Hue in which Air-Cav and Airborne troops operated during the battle (2/12th, 1/7th, 5/7th Cav. and 2/501st Airborne).

A number of important operations were undertaken in this area to prevent reinforcement and re-supply of the NVA in the citadel.

The battles fought were centred around the villages of Thon Que Chu and Thon La Chu.

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Thanks about great map. How about Saigon next;)?

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

It will be a while again before I undertake a project of that scope.

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Nice documentary on the battle to clear the south side of the Perfume River.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6Xa75XCuj0

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Any progress on Battle of Hue scenarios?
Just finished Mark Bowden's (Blackhoawk Down) book, 'Hue 1968'.
Nasty battle - good book.

I've visited the city, and especially around the Citadel, it would be a helluva place to have to assault.
Checked in here (after several years) to see if I could try my hand at fighting the battle.
It would certainly be a very different sort of Vietnam scenario (more like Stalingrad) and is arguably the major battle of Vietnam (American) war.

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

On my list ... I'm still (haphazardly) doing research on the battle in my spare time.

I'll look into that "Hue 1968" book ... thanks!

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Yeah, the book is worth a look if you are interested in the period.
Well researched, but with the same focus on the characters that he gave to Blackhawk down, both from the US/ARVN and the NVA/VC/NLF side.

Interesting mix of weapons too - Flame tanks, 106RR on a mule, the cool and surprisingly effective Ontos (6 106RR rifles!)... heavy use of CS gas (can that be handled?)
Monty's Map does a good job of capturing the layout of the land, though it does have a bit more rural look than the actual city.
Especially around the citadel, I wonder if there is a way to get the look of the massive stone walls, fortifications and ornate buildings of the citadel?

Bit of a challenge here, but this nasty 'knife fight in a phone booth' was pretty much the tipping point for the US in Vietnam.

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

From the NVA/VC/NLF side?
Now that's useful!

I'm afraid the Ontos is a bit of a lame duck as the flechette rounds aren't represented in WinSPMBT. And no CS.

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

That is easily enough to do just give me an idea what the range and HEK should be for the beehive round.

EDIT-----
....I've got the unit and the Formations in the OOB now it's just waiting for the weapon details......how does 22 HEK sound? That gives casualties almost every shot and a big dose of suppression.....it seems to do what I imagine it's supposed to.

So far I have been unable to unearth any info on what the range of the beehive should be for the 106 RR...the M1028 is 14 in game. I suspect the 106 is no better and probably shorter.

Further info---
1/4 mile is 400m....so thinking a range of 8-10 is what it needs to be but I'm still digging

AH HA!.....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M40_recoilless_rifle
M581 APERS 9.89 kg flechettes 4.94 kg N/A 300 m

also.....
https://books.google.ca/books?id=2KQ...eehive&f=false
I also need to know when this was introduced, one source says the 105mm version was only introduced in 1966 and another says the 105mm version was only first used in combat in Nov 1966 so 1/1967 seems a safe bet for the M581 armed Ontos

Further EDIT-----
The "new" weapon is named 106mm Beehive though I could use 106mm APERS-T but one source says "The APERS-T round is available in only 105-mm caliber." I'm liking " Beehive" over APERS-T

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1505388597

BTW....information suggests the Ontos units were deactivated in May 1969, not June 1970.....

I have changed the OOB to reflect this new information

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

AH HA !!

http://bulletpicker.com/pdf/TM%209-1...n.pdf#page=244

range is 300 m AFTER a 137 fuse delay so the range is 9 with a 3 hex dead zone in front
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1505405237

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

I'll incorporate it into the 2017 OOB update.

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

I already have...........

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

As this vehicle is a bit of an oddball if you have given the beehive round a fairly large warhead how have you set the ammo loadout?
Rather than mixing in each gun like normal you could assign diffrent ammo to each RCL so you have some control over not firing the beehive round & catching freindlys in the area of effect.

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

It's set up in my copy of the OOB as a special CS tank pl / sec. WH size is no different than a standard 106mm round and it gets the same ammo loadout as a normal Ontos. Right now the HEK is 33. Date range is 1/67 - 5/69

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

For my variant I'm doing just that.
Two of the 106's will remain normal, the third will have the beehive.

For regular 106's I'm just adding a second weapon slot with the beehive (best solution due to range and other issues, tho it does let you fire both HE and a beehive at the same time, nothing's perfect).

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

The "problem" there is the round was only available for the Ontos from 67 -69 so it does not match the in service dates for the 50 or 50A1 so a new unit has to be added anyway. That is why the game OOB has it in a separate CS formation exclusively using the Beehive

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

OK ... THAT is a problem.
Thanks for the dates!

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

I'm still experimenting with the weapon set up.....busy with RL ATM...

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Should probably be about the same as the M1028 round used by the Abrams, maybe a bit less, 106mm vs 120mm.

But based on your experiments that may be altered of course.

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

I'm a bit busy ATM with other things but the lethality ( HEK ) is tricky. I had thought at first around 33 HEK would be fair and while tests showed it gave a healthy dose of suppression and a number of kills per shot it still didn't seem to give the type of effect that was documented

The M1028 while being a larger diameter WH packs in approx 1150 tungsten balls.....the M581 APERS " beehive" for the 106 RR packed in nearly ( depending on the source ) 6- 8 times as many steel Flechettes. They don't have the range of the tungsten balls but there are a lot more of them flying around so that's why experiments are still ongoing.

It won't be an invulnerable wonder weapon as the range of the Flechettes is no more than the range of most rifles generally but the HEK may end up higher than the M1028

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Interesting that they didn't use flechettes for the M1028 then if they're that much better. Cost I assume. The demo I saw in '75 was one ripping up a bunch of baloons, so not exactly hard to damage targets.

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

I think there are a number of factors for going to tungsten balls....one the range is greater, double or thereabouts...another ( and I think this is a big part of why they only lasted a short time) is the propaganda value their use gives the enemy .The Isrealis have had to deal with that when they used them.....one civilian get injured and there is hell to pay
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...p-9617480.html
I think the M1028 is probably.....but I'm only guessing...more "controllable"

Grape shots been used for centuries....little tiny arrows seem to be perceived differently......how that differs in anyway from a suicide vest stuffed with nails I guess depends on what side of the fence you are standing

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

The stone walls etc. cannot be modelled in-game. There are no icons for such things - only hedgerows. I attempted to model the outer wall using a level one hill and special terrain. That is as close as you are going to get in the current build. I am taking another look at the map and re-jigging the outer wall and canals, however. I'll eliminate the gaps altogether. Perhaps I can put some building up on the "citadel wall" to simulate towers etc. I'll need to re-acquaint myself with the geography though.

Maybe someone in the community wants to mod some Vietnamese buildings? I hear building creation is a laborious process. I, for one, don't fancy myself as up to the task.

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Try this site has a good aerial photo of the Citadel and area plus others.
https://forums.bistudio.com/forums/t...e-for-hue-map/

Also from the site an actual map from the USA circa 1965. It's likely this ids the map they used during the battle. Note the Limited Distribution/Declass stamp lower right. This is the real deal as I dealt with USN charts of various classifications in my career. I'm giving it time but, it's taking too long to come up (The Map.) so...
From the above site scroll down/after the first set of pictures/look for the 5th 1 Mar post made by "eggbeast"/on the 3rd line down of his post/click on the light blue highlighted "Hue" for the map in question.

Well it took forever but it's arrived...
Attachment 14910

You'll obviously get a better look and can zoom in and out from the map from the site, this will just give you an indication of what it offers and the detail is very good of land features etc.

As a side note look for Ken Burns documentary on the Vietnam War on PBS starting this month.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

If you're going to revise the map RecruitMonty I'll make an effort to put some time into researching things and maybe between us we can get something done.

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Alright. My revisions are limited to sorting out the Citadel wall at present. It is now - more or less - continuous and as close to the shape of the real thing as the angle will allow. Of course space being what it is, I've had to zap some of the river hexes and some parts of the villes on the left and right.

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Off topic slightly but certain maps generate raised roads, 5 height not 10.
A button that genetates these would be nice.

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Send me a copy of the revised map when you're done please.

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Will do.

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Well ... here they are without further ado.

Two huge maps of Hue City - one of the City itself and the other of the environs directly to the West, which was where the AirCav operated during the battle and where the VC and NVA infiltrated from.

I hope you now prefer the walls and the Imperial Palace of Peace's layout. I went to some lengths to redesign the outer walls and to put in a lot more buildings in the citadel itself. The Palace of Peace is still fairly sparse in terms of buildings - but at 50 metres a hex - you cannot expect miracles.

I may - one day - make a not to scale version of the citadel and maybe even the southern bank, but right now I'm too busy irl and besides I have still not yet come up with the appropriate metrics on how to go about "blowing up" the existing maps.

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Very well done maps, I can appreciate the time you put into making them. And I like how you created the stadium, I knew what that was even before I read the map text :)

Steves308

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Now to get off my bum and actually create the needed scenarios.

Don't expect anything till after the 2018 WinSPMBT patch tho, need to get those Ontos's into the battle!

MIGHT get ambitious and try to make a campaign out of it.

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Thanks! :)

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Did we ever get those scenarios, or the final campaign?

Re: Hue city 1967-68
 

Not as of yet.
Still trying to find info on NVA, VC, and RVN forces that were involved. I have a pretty good idea what units, but what was their strength? 100% 90% 50% and what weapons aside from AKs and RPGs?