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-   -   Lessons Learned from the Rus - Ukr war (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=51125)

wulfir March 2nd, 2016 12:03 PM

Lessons Learned from the Rus - Ukr war
 
Some observations on the war in Ukraine.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bws...vNWNCdVFB/view


The author claims

- the APC/IFV is too vulnerable.
- Ukr infantry often attacks dismounted, or sometimes split up squads into two APCs/IFVs to reduce losses causing higher strain on support services.
- Modern Main Battle Tanks have enough protection against the majority of inf-ATGM/RPG type weapons to again be King of the Battlefild. ("Yom Kippur reversed").
- Russians use massive amounts of drones in combination with heavy artillery strikes. Low reaction times before arty strike. Russian arty supposedly killed of two Ukr Mech Inf Bn's at Zellenopillya within a few minutes(?)
- Ukranian fighting morale not broken despite setbacks and lack of modern gear...

Wiking March 2nd, 2016 01:46 PM

Re: Lessons Learned from the Rus - Ukr war
 
Sort of confirms what I'd always suspected about IFV's in general. Thanks for this, Wulfir.

Suhiir March 2nd, 2016 07:14 PM

Re: Lessons Learned from the Rus - Ukr war
 
With the proliferation of cheap infantry AT weapons (LAAW, RPG) most APC/IFVs have even less business on the front lines then they did when 37mm AT guns were commonplace.

Imp March 2nd, 2016 08:05 PM

Re: Lessons Learned from the Rus - Ukr war
 
And people moaned that CM artillery is to powerful. This is similar to how I thought US Cavalry formations are supposed to operate. Decimate the opposition with artillery & the ground units stop what makes it through.

MarkSheppard March 2nd, 2016 08:17 PM

Re: Lessons Learned from the Rus - Ukr war
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wulfir (Post 833064)
Some observations on the war in Ukraine.

the APC/IFV is too vulnerable.

Well, what do you expect when all you have is BMP-2s (14.3 tonnes) and BTR-70/80s (13.6 tonnes) in quantity?

Essentially anything can puncture them.

Warhero March 3rd, 2016 04:46 AM

Re: Lessons Learned from the Rus - Ukr war
 
I remember when some military expert said in Finnish TV interview 2014 that "it's impossible deal with 80's equipment against modern 2010's equipment"... I think that the greatest error what Ukraine did is going back to T-64 type tanks from T-80 types (during 90's). Just because costs of tank support. And same thing with APC's too. Sad but true.

wulfir March 3rd, 2016 08:33 AM

Re: Lessons Learned from the Rus - Ukr war
 
Not knowing anything about the author(s) I was surprised to read about the use of the SPA Gun 2S1 in the assault gun and anti-tank role by both the Russians and Ukranians...(?)

Mobhack March 3rd, 2016 10:34 AM

Re: Lessons Learned from the Rus - Ukr war
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wulfir (Post 833086)
Not knowing anything about the author(s) I was surprised to read about the use of the SPA Gun 2S1 in the assault gun and anti-tank role by both the Russians and Ukranians...(?)

No surprise there, mentioned by Isby in his book "Weapons and tactics of the Soviet Army", 1981. His schematic of the attack shows the attached battery of 122mm SP following 3-4000 yards behind.

USSR is quite happy even to use towed 122mm firing over open sights in an attack support mode, and they also use the current SPAs for that job as well, just like they used the SUs in WW2.

Makes sense, if fighting on open terrain where you can see for greater distances than inf-ATGM range (circa 2000m) to hold back just outside that and pulverise any that do show themselves. SP 122mm can displace more easily than the towed ones of course.

Against that, I suppose the light inf-atgm should be positioning themselves behind blocking terrain (hills, woods, villages) , aiming to fire flanking shots into the exposed flanks of any penetrations made.

122mm HE is a decent killer of lightly armoured vehicles as well, according to the report. It is also good in the game I have found against tin-plated APC and IFV. But then again, in WW2 I am perfectly happy to fire SU-152 HE onto tigers. The 6 inch bricks can deal with them, and it clears any surrounding infantry at the same time while at least giving the big cats a headache!;)

In MBT, I generally prefer cheap light tin-plated APCS like the BTR-60/80s or Saracens, to give my guys protected mobility only. I also tend to get the grunts out and walk over the last few yards too, using the mobility to get to a hidden debussing point near to the objective. I'm not a great fan of tin-plated IFV, nor any IFV with tiny dismount squads (7 or less bayonets say). They tend to die too quickly against tanks and other IFV if you put them out in the open and try to fight with them. The only useful IFV have decent protection IMHO - such as the Israeli models. And since the whole point of APC/IFV is the infantry they carry, then they have to carry a useful squad size too (8-10 dismounts).

IFV though are very nice to have if the enemy doesn't have too many, or high tech, MBT. And also has mainly APC mounted infantry. So South Africa with Ratel vs Cubans say. But if Cuba turns up with lots of the laser equipped model of the T55, it can be slaughter for the Ratels...

wulfir March 3rd, 2016 12:11 PM

Re: Lessons Learned from the Rus - Ukr war
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mobhack (Post 833087)
122mm HE is a decent killer of lightly armoured vehicles as well, according to the report. It is also good in the game I have found against tin-plated APC and IFV. But then again, in WW2 I am perfectly happy to fire SU-152 HE onto tigers. The 6 inch bricks can deal with them, and it clears any surrounding infantry at the same time while at least giving the big cats a headache!;)...

I have seldom used SP Arty for direct fire, but I have seen it in a few PBEM games - one of the first games I played (against Martinez) saw him attack with a 1944 Panzer KG using all kinds of stuff, incl Hummels, in the first wave.

Myself though I tend to keep the arty out of the danger zone as much as possible... :)

Suhiir March 3rd, 2016 04:44 PM

Re: Lessons Learned from the Rus - Ukr war
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mobhack (Post 833087)
In MBT, I generally prefer cheap light tin-plated APCS like the BTR-60/80s or Saracens, to give my guys protected mobility only. I also tend to get the grunts out and walk over the last few yards too, using the mobility to get to a hidden debussing point near to the objective. I'm not a great fan of tin-plated IFV, nor any IFV with tiny dismount squads (7 or less bayonets say). They tend to die too quickly against tanks and other IFV if you put them out in the open and try to fight with them. The only useful IFV have decent protection IMHO - such as the Israeli models. And since the whole point of APC/IFV is the infantry they carry, then they have to carry a useful squad size too (8-10 dismounts).

One of the reasons I've always liked the LVT/AAV (at least until they added thermal sights and the game cost skyrocketed), it's a perfectly good battle taxi and carries enough troops you only need 3 to carry even the "oversize" reinforced USMC Rifle Platoons (50+ troops).


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