[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

Regrettably, I think the USA has become markedly worse than many European countries with regard to all of these things. I would be happy to be corrected - I have no agenda on these things, but that's certainly the perception. With regard to individual rights, I would say that Guantanamo is a horror inconceivable by most Western European countries (I know less about the east, but believe the same is true for most Eastern European countries too). With regard to an egalitarian society, America is obviously notoriously bad, with its tendency to right-wing politics making its provision for the less fortunate far worse than in Europe. I believe in that respect the UK is intermediate between the US and much of the rest of Europe.

I think this is a pity. The US makes a far bigger deal about its history of freedom and equality than in Europe (here in the UK it is common to be deeply cynical about our country), while actually being not especially good at it.

So many things I disagree with.

Your own country just extended the amount of time a terror suspect may be held without requiring the surpervision of the courts, or charges. Doubled it didn't it?

Eastern Europe has well documented, state sanctioned secret prisons. Countries such as poland, rumania, italy. Where individuals of state interest were (are) held without court ccess or supervision.

Many here have talked about the holding of terror suspects at Gitmo. The term terror suspect presupposes what is at contention is a criminal trial, which is not correct.

Suppose for a moment that unmarked combattants set a bomb in a house and engaged in a firefight with US troops. In other wars they would have been deemed Prisoners of War - and held for the duration of the war. What exactly would you have the US do - release them to fight again?

Give me an example of Britain releasing all the German POWs. Or Russia.

As for the moral superiority of Western Europe - you're talking about nations such as Germany and France that made sub rosa agreements with the Red Brigades (and other terrorist organizations) that so long as terrorist incidents did not occur on French or German soil, brigadists were allowed free transit.

You're talking about a french system where guilt is presumed until proven innocent - and a French regime that allowed abuses of the Oil for Food program so long as the received below market rates on iraqi oil.

Gitmo is a horror inconceivable to Western Europeans is it? Last I checked western europe included germany which slaughtred millions of Jews, catholics, intellectuals and others in its Nazi death camps.

So spare me the moral superiourity.

As for being notoriously bad for an egalitarian society.. that could prompt an essay by itself. I'll content myself with two comments.

Liberte, egalite, fraternite are the french ideals, not American ones. America has never pretended otherwise. What America has always held is that if you work hard, keep your nose clean and invent a better widget - then you too can become filthy rich.

Lastly, if America were so notoriously bad - exactly why is it that we have 10 million people a year more or less sneaking there ways across our borders, or overstaying their visas. On top of millions more applyig for visas and green cards.

Ok. I lied. This is the last: 'I think this is a pity. The US makes a far bigger deal about its history of freedom and equality than in Europe, while actually being not especially good at it.'

We just elected a black man, raised at least part of the time in a single family President of the United States.

Let me know when you do the same in Britain, or France.