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Old November 2nd, 2015, 07:53 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
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Default Re: Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.8.1)

Let's finish with truck-mounted artillery...

class 19: Tank destroyers:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post
8, 10 Ceirano 75L27 - used from 1/30 ("Italian Truck-Mounted Artillery in action") (it would demand change in formations in case of Assault gun class) - at least until 7/43 in Sicilia.
Max speed was 25-30 km/h only.
I suggest name Ceirano 75/27CK - the gun's designation.
They were available in Italy until surrender.

57 3RO 90L53 - "first batteries deployed early in 1942" (now 10/41, although they were apparently completed by then)

There could be also added Fiat634N 102/35 in the same role - https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/102/35_su_Fiat_634N
Two batteries of Navy AA 102mm guns were put on trucks in late 1941 and used with Ariete division in combat against tanks in 10-12/41. Specifications and icon would be roughly the same, but gun's data should be established somehow... Possibly like the French #69 105mm mle 1913, but with some AP penetration.


Class 22: SP flak:

11 Semovente CA 20 - crew 10 is definitely too much - 20mm guns on popular captured Ford F15 trucks had 4, on other trucks surely it was similar. Move class should be wheel (seems, that this unit was once SdKfz-10/4...). Better desert icon is 619. Better photo (of Ford F15) is 2698.
I've found no info, that 20mm guns on trucks were really used before late 1940, especially before the war ("by late 1940, in response to specific request by higher HQ, artillery workshops in Libya had built 100 mounts for 20mm cannons and 150 mounts for 47mm guns suitable for installation in truck beds"). SPA-38 trucks were used initially in this role.

We have also SP-Flak 487 SPA 35 AS-20 (available 6/37-7/43), which is in fact a specific example of Semovente CA 20, available for part of its period. It should be SPA 38 in fact, and the gun was "referred to both officially and commonly as the Breda da 20/65" - so maybe a better name is SPA-38 20/65 (it wouldn't confuse, in case of this and following units, with AS as a designation of Autocarro Sahariano trucks).
There are the same doubts as for is starting date - although there is a photo of "1937 prototype of SPA 38R cargo truck mounts a 20mm Breda Model 35 cannon" https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:S...tipo_20-65.jpg (description quoted from the book).
I believe a better icon for a single 20mm gun is 619, not 620.
Since it was mounted on ordinary truck, size of 2 is too low. Speed was 51 km/h according to Wikipedia.

If we are precise in naming models, then #11 Semovente CA 20 could be changed into Ford F15 20/65 - it was most popular mount for 20mm guns in desert warfare, adopted from around 9/41. Speed should be higher then, and size might be 2, since it had quite low profile.

There were also used also Camionette AS 37 with 20mm guns - but they can rather be represented as an existing SP AT vehicle (#475 below)

12 Semovente CA 37 - very comprehensive "Italian Truck-Mounted Artillery in Action" doesn't mention, that 37 mm guns were ever mounted on trucks, especially twin ones...

Maybe it was supposed to be German halftrack first - I have no idea, if the Italians used them.

Class 21: SP artillery:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post
58 SPA 65L17 - Autocannone 65/17 were usually used on captured Morris CS8 chassis, not SPA (according to a book above - even described on Wikipedia as standard equipment http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/65/17_su_Morris_CS8 ).
In service from 9/41 (now 6/41, would need change in formations 80 and 317).
Better icon seems 721 (although it's also used for 47mm gun trucks below)

It can also be doubled as class 52 SP-AT vehicle. They were supposed to counter LRDG patrols.

527 3RO 100L17 - I suggest name 3Ro 100/17. They were used since 9/41 as well (now 6/41)
I think, that best icon is 612, especially, that they used green on sand camo (and icon 721 is reserved by other vehicles)


Class 52: SP-AT vehicle

475 Autocannon 20mm - basically the same as #11 Semovente CA 20, but in AT role. Size can be 2 (they were quite low), crew 4. Used also from 9/41 (now 6/41). 20mm guns were mounted on SPA trucks from late 1940, as I mentioned, but it seems that only with advent of light trucks they started to be used in offensive AT/AA role (Ford F15 - photo, AS-37). There's no reason, I think, that this unit should end in 6/42, before end of combat in Africa.

477 Autocannon 47mm - represents mostly 47mm guns on AS37 and AS43 light trucks. Size can be 2 (they were quite low), crew also should be lower (now 8). There's no reason, that this should end in 6/42, before end of combat in Africa - moreover, AS43 gun trucks were newly produced and captured by the Germans in 9/43. Photo itself is AS-37 - better quality is 2523.

There aren't known vehicles with 47mm gun AND 20mm Breda, and both weapons wouldn't fit on light trucks.
There are only some photos of AS37 trucks with 20mm Breda and 8mm(?) MG - such vehicle can be added as option, but it may be the same class, as AS42 Sahariana (Heavy AC).

There were also 47mm guns on Lancia 3Ro heavy trucks mounted from late 1940, but it should go into other category (tank destroyer?), I guess, being much heavier.

484 TL-37 AS-20 - it should be 20mm gun on armoured S37 (aka AS37 Protetto), but I couldn't find info on such variant. Besides, its armour sides would probably interfere with the AA gun. Photo is ordinary S37, as unit #62 mentioned before.
Personally, I'd remove it.

497 TL-37 75L27 - again, there's no info on 75/27 gun on armoured S37. It might be a misunderstanding, since there was indeed 75/27 field gun on TL-37 tractor, but it wasn't armoured and looked completely different: http://www.societyofgentlemengamers....605ff3d105e93c
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat-S..._schierati.jpg

IMO, it should be changed to real unarmoured one - icon 755 (it was forward-shooting weapon). Crew was 4 (again, much too much). There's no precise info on availability, but apparently from early 1942 until May 42 (or even longer, according to one photo).

Formation #248 would have to be modified accordingly with earliest and latest units (#477 Autocannon 47mm could as well be extended until 1946)

Class 126: Gun APC (W)
Personally, I can't see use of this class - there are two trucks with 47mm guns, that are already covered by unit 477 Autocannon 47mm (SP-AT vehicle class) - and the only usage of Gun APC (W) class is formation #238 AS Sahariane, where there are also used SP-AT vehicles!... Possibly it is redundant.

485 SPA 35 AS-47 - it is effectively the same, as 477 Autocannon 47mm (and there was no SPA 35). Photo is AS37 gun truck.

488 TL-37 AS-47 - it is effectively the same, as above, with the same AS37 photo, but different icon... It should not be armoured.

Class 128 Light SPAA vehicle
486 TL-37S - it is supposed to be twin 8mm AAMG on armoured S37. It is the only unit in this class, which is only used in formation #238 AS Sahariane. Firstly, there is no info available on armoured S37 with twin 8mm MGs. Secondly, assigning armoured S37 to Saharian units is wrong, since they were mostly (only?) used for anti-partizan operations in Balkans. Thirdly, Saharian patrols should have trucks with much more effective 20mm AA guns. And there is already one SP-flak in #238 formation - so there might be two.

We could think about creation of 20mm-armed AS-37 or Ford as Light SPAA vehicle, but I'm not sure if it makes sense (if we throw out 37mm SP flak, there would remain only 20mm-armed vehicles anyway)

Michal
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