[cbo]

Originally Posted by Cross

In my opinion, the game should use names that are universally accepted and recognized by the players. ‘M10 Wolverine’ is far more recognizable (in the 21st Century) than ‘M10’. The OOB can be confusing enough for new players; let’s make it a little easier for them.

The Wolverine name is widespread and universal. Today, even the Americans have adopted the name, often referring to their own M10’s as ‘Wolverine’ in books and on websites. I guess similar to how many US (non-purists) call their M4 ‘Sherman’.

What I'm objecting to is the notion that Achilles should be used because it is an official name. It was, but only within the walls of the DTD. Everywhere else, the official name was SP, 3-inch, M10 and SP, 17-pr, M10.

Wolverine was never an official British name for the M10 of any sort, perhaps not an official name at all.

As for names being "universally recognized by players", it would seem to me that after the game has been out there for nearly 15 years and its SPCamo incarnations for 10+ years, the names for the M10 that are in the game use work just fine

I've never heard anyone complain that they could not find these vehicles - as opposed to finding out what hides under the PZFNWKTH in the German OOB or the CarArmGrGa in the italian

BTW, most sources I have seen do include ‘Wolverine’ and ‘Achilles’ in the ‘Official’ WW2 designation for the British M10

Sure. Achilles is known because someone back in the day stumbled upon that name, probably in the DTD archives, and used it in his books. Later it was used in the "Armour Profiles" and "British and US Tanks of WWII" in the 1960ies, and the it stuck. And since everyone is copying everyone, it still used all over the place.

The issue was dealt with extensively by Dick Harley in a series of articles on the M10 in AFV News back in the 1990ies, using British archival records. Harleys research did not find any mention of "Wolverine" in the DTD records or anywhere else, so exactly how that name came to be is anyones guess. It would fit the Canadian practice of naming AFVs after wildlife, so perhaps that is the source. Your source "anonymous" seems to think along those lines, as he suggests that Wolverine was a Canadian M10 prototype based on the Ram chassis. Never heard of that one before though...?

As for the "Achilles", you wrote:

US names
M10 3in GMC (Gun Motor Carriage) I/II, was the USA designation for this ‘Tank Destroyer’ with M7 gun.

British names
‘Wolverine’, was the British name for the above unconverted M10’s in British service, but Achilles I/II was the official British name for unconverted M10’s, aka. 3in SP Wolverine.

Achilles Ic/IIc, was the British name for M10’s converted to 17Pdr gun. aka. 17Pdr SP Achilles.

There was not, to my knowledge, ever a M10, 3-inch GMC I/II. I'm not sure what the two roman numerals would indicate?

As for your description of British names, it makes no sense to me? Wolverine was British name for unconverted M10s but they were officially called Achilles as well?

The reality is that there was one US version of the M10, the 3 inch Gun Motor Carriage M10.
When the DTD was labelling them - and they apparently did not do so until 1945 - all M10s, converted or not, were called Achilles. The Achilles I being vehicles with the early turret (V-shaped turret rear), the Achilles II being vehicles with the later turret (flat rear turret). When converted to SP, 17-pr M10, they became Achilles Ic and IIc respectively.

Still, the names probably never existed outside the DTD - and in misguided postware litterature

Ps. Are you also suggesting (to be consistent) we should not use the name ‘Achilles’ in the British OOB?

I suggest game designers do whatever works and make them happy.

Armour
Thank you for the additional info on the armour. You have confirmed my suspicions about the photos and local field fits.

I had heard about the M10 being originally prepared for additional bolt-on armor. I wasn’t sure if this is what the Brits took advantage of during the 17Pdr upgrade. But the source about the additional armour specifically said ‘welded”. I guess history is a mystery…

Or perhaps we should be carefull using as reference an unreferenced post by someone called "anonymous" and "Mr. Bunny" on some interweb blog