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  #11  
Old March 11th, 2017, 07:56 AM
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DRG DRG is offline
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Default Re: Infantry LMGs

Addendum

I think before we head any further down this rabbit hole we need to focus in on what you think the "problem" actually IS and how the conclusion it was "a problem" was arrived at.

So.... was this the result of observation during gameplay or trolling though the MOBHack database and comparing numbers?

Don

Last edited by DRG; March 11th, 2017 at 08:11 AM..
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  #12  
Old March 11th, 2017, 12:43 PM
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Exclamation Re: Infantry LMGs

I decided to get ahead of this a bit to save everyone ( me primarily ) time and effort in the long run

IF anyone does look though that CSV I have no doubt someone will find something to quibble about. I've been doing this too long to not know better.

One thing I just discovered today...because there is simply too much data to remember every last weapon....but it relates to the Bren as that was brought up right at the start.

In the game, the Bren LMG has an HEK of 5. In the game the L4A1 LMG has an HEK of 8. The "problem" is an L4A1 is simply a 7.62 Bren

oops....

I'm not going to take credit for that but I did miss it for 15 years.( and so did EVERYONE ELSE)

However, it does allow me to test two near identical weapons with 2 different HEK's that are seemingly significant in difference

All tests used target infantry with speed set to zero. All the shooters only had their Bren or L4A1 active. Visibility was 70 and the range was 450m

EDIT As well....both the shooters AND the targets had their Experience and morale set to 70 as that is an important factor the game uses to determine hits and morale status as well and most people do not ensure that those values are stabilized as it does affect combat resolution results....units with high experience hit their targets more often and targets with lower experience get hit more often so any test like this MUST use 70 for both values as that is the median.

TEST 1

Target 1 ( Bren ) 2 casualties status Pinned

Target 2 ( Bren ) 2 casualties status Pinned

Target 3 ( Bren ) 2 casualties status Pinned

--------------------------------------------------------------

Target 4 ( L4A1 ) 2 casualties status Pinned

Target 5 ( L4A1 ) 1 casualty status Pinned

Target 6 ( L4A1 ) 3 casualties status Routed


Battle report was 12

Test 2


Target 1 ( Bren ) 1 casualty status Pinned

Target 2 ( Bren ) 2 casualties status Pinned

Target 3 ( Bren ) 0 casualties status Pinned

--------------------------------------------------------------

Target 4 ( L4A1 ) 1 casualty status Pinned

Target 5 ( L4A1 ) 2 casualties status Pinned

Target 6 ( L4A1 ) 0 casualties status Pinned

Battle report was 6


Test 3



Target 1 ( Bren ) 1 casualty status Pinned

Target 2 ( Bren ) 1 casualty status Pinned

Target 3 ( Bren ) 2 casualties status Pinned

--------------------------------------------------------------

Target 4 ( L4A1 ) 1 casualty status Pinned

Target 5 ( L4A1 ) 3 casualties status Routed

Target 6 ( L4A1 ) 1 casualty status Pinned

Battle report was 9

a slight difference( really slight )...not 100's of hours work difference. There is more variation put in by the random number generator than the OOB stats and points out in this game in this scale of combat simulation... A LMG is a LMG is a LMG and LMG HEK or ACC values a point here or there are a mere grain of sand on the balance scale this game uses to produce combat results

Last edited by DRG; March 12th, 2017 at 08:44 AM..
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  #13  
Old March 11th, 2017, 07:14 PM
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Default Re: Infantry LMGs

Quote:
Originally Posted by sabresandy View Post
HEK baselines:

Box-fed: 4
Drum-fed: 6
Belt-fed: 8

Automatic rifle: -1 (penalizing automatic rifles--BAR, M14 SAW, heavy-barrel FALs)
Battle-rifle caliber: +1 (rationale: penetrating light cover to more of an extent than assault-caliber SAWs can)
ROF bonus?: +1
In a 5 minute game turn the feed mechanism (box, drum, belt) is pretty irrelevant. This isn't an FPS where a second or two one way or the other matters.

I'd look at the stabilization method; none, bipod, or tripod: and standard sights; iron or scoped: rather then caliber or general method of use/employment.

And while I agree with Don, I'm curious to see what you come up with.
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  #14  
Old March 11th, 2017, 08:37 PM
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Default Re: Infantry LMGs

I have used both the GPMG and the LMG.

The LMG with a good 2 man crew produces sufficient fire downrange, is lighter to carry, has no belt to entangle itself in foliage etc, and it was a joy to strip and clean after the GPMG. (The latter filled up with gunk and was not a fun thing to clean - definitely a 2 man task.)

Having a top-mounted box mag, the LMG was simple to keep fed with the No 1 simply whipping the mag off and calling "change" as he did so, no2 then plonking a new one directly onto the gun easily. No fiddling underneath the weapon (like say a BAR would require, with the no2 there only able to pass the mag to no1 to then fiddle into place himself). The top-mounted mag and the change process meant no1 could remain laid onto the target as well. Unlike a BAR, it had a quick-change barrel with a handle so you did not need an asbestos mitt (a feature the GPMG carried on).

The LMG, when originally in 303 as the BREN was designed for the old WW1 type marching fire, carried at the hip on its sling. When doing so, the top mounted mag meant an easy change, unlike the BAR which would require fiddling under the weapon. The GPMG could be slung and used from the hip, but was a bit of a beast to do so. (NB we were particularly instructed back then to restrict the term BREN to ones in 303 (which were still around in caded forces etc.), LMG for the 7.62 conversion. Nobody back in the 1970s ever used the "L-numbers" - doing so meant you were a "train-spotter"! - and if you did do so then it would probably lead to a quick run round the drill hall with the weapon held above your head)

The GPMG did have the ability to loose off great bursts of fire when required, but 99.99% of section tactics had no real need of fire hosing...

The LMG was quite accurate, and it was used as a sniping weapon in single-shot mode in WW2. That was also in the pamphlets for initial use in the defence, so as not to give away the position of the gun group too early in the contact. GPMG only had automatic, though with a little practice you could get it to "single tap" - frowned on if you did that on the range though!.

The LMG also had a slow rate of fire, which the data-ferrets would probably "penalize" it for. But in reality the low ROF meant the weapon was extremely easy to control on auto, and you could direct the fire extremely easily as it went of in its distinctive "duf duf duf". Note that the USA came to the same conclusion with its SPIW automatic rifle concept of the 60s and 70s. A low ROF leads to controllable auto-fire. And also does not burn through mags at silly rates.

The GPMGs ability to fire big busts really was of any use when tripod mounted, with a set of heavy barrels used to deal with the excess heat. In light mode you were to use bursts of 3-5 and maybe the odd 10 shot in special circumstances such as in an ambush situation. The LMG with 30 rounds in the can could do that just fine. So no need for some artificial lowering of its HE value in game terms.

There is a lot more than just a simple reading of book numbers and guesstimates on magazine capacity etc in determining what an MG should score as a real-world system.

In real-world application then an LMG and a GPMG are really pretty much equivalent devices. The German LMGs with their 1200 round rate of fire do get a mention in many WW2 memoirs, but it seems the high rate of fire was more of a morale effect rather than any noticeable on-target effect, and it did chew through the ammo!. A BAR though would be a little less use as an LMG - but then it was an SAW in any case.

A SAW is operated by one man to produce occasional burps of fire with inevitable pauses as the gunner feeds the beastie. The SAW has problems with keeping up a sustained base of fire (whether its the gunner having to fiddle with underneath-mounted mags, or single-handedly dealing with long belts all by himself).

Quite frankly - I would probably have just an "LMG" and a "SAW" weapon class with just 2 data points. No need to differentiate micro-details between a BREN, a Spandau, an M60 or an FN GPMG. All have the same game effect, as they also do in reality. It is also what 99% of tabletop wargame rules do.
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  #15  
Old March 12th, 2017, 05:49 AM

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Default Re: Infantry LMGs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobhack View Post
Quite frankly - I would probably have just an "LMG" and a "SAW" weapon class with just 2 data points. No need to differentiate micro-details between a BREN, a Spandau, an M60 or an FN GPMG. All have the same game effect, as they also do in reality. It is also what 99% of tabletop wargame rules do.
I agree with that sentiment. I think that machine guns should be standardized in the same fashion as rifles and assault rifles were.
In game stats there is no difference not only between AKM and AK-74 but between AK-74 and M-16 and so on. Why there is difference between RPK and RPK-74? Different names should be retained for a flavor reasons mostly.
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  #16  
Old March 12th, 2017, 06:01 AM

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Default Re: Infantry LMGs

I am not a specialist for weapons, but I have found the ideal opportunity for me to be satisfied with the game. Whenever I think something is wrong with the units or the weapons, i change them to my satisfaction. It is my Game!

This LMG thing, why not use all the expertise of qualified men and put everything into a mod? If the users love it, the modmakers could issue one for all nations perhaps?

Speaking in general, not because of this LMG story:

Sometimes I think that every time an expert presents a WW2-postcard in which a MG is mounted on a bike, the game is changed to be more accurate. Then after a while, it falls on someone that this MG is not simply mounted on the bike. It is mounted between the bicycle handlebar! And, of course, the expert asks for rectification. But the programming reaches its limits or either it would assume a horrible amount of time ... there is no way to please everyone.
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