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Old October 25th, 2020, 06:00 PM
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Fallout Re: APC Development and related topics.

This is many ways is an ongoing topic about a "controversial" topic however, this article clears up some of the ambiguity on what's really going on. It's a story of two countries, programs and paths taken. Also with a surprising revelation of who's getting the "Brass Ring" first for an FOC System.

I am speaking of UK & FRANCE/AJAX & SCORPIAN and the CT-40.

To save time I'm simply going to quote from the story...

Under Heading: CT40 Cannon: proven system or cause of delays?

"In recent evidence, given to theDefence Select Committee, General Dynamics Land Systems – UK and Lockheed Martin UK both laid some blame for delays to their programmes at the door of the CT40 cannon."

"In France, Nexter’s Jaguar, part of the country’s Scorpion land vehicles programme, uses the same weapon as AJAX and Warrior CSP. Jaguar was contracted in 2014 and is due to enter service at the end of this year."
(That is the surprise but "due" isn't the same "will". It just bears closer watching.)

"So, why have UK vehicles faced delays while France has progressed at speed?"

Under Heading: Same cannon, different subsystems

"The adoption of the full system is part of the reason that Nexter has had success with Jaguar, while the UK has faced delays."

"In the development of its turret for Warrior CSP, Lockheed Martin did not take all the components from CTA International, instead choosing to develop its own ammunition handling system that feeds from the side rather than the bottom of the weapon."

"Nexter added that as a direct result of these trials (2006 & 2008-Mine), the company chose to adopt the entire CT40 system, including all the components listed above. The French company said that Jaguar benefited from the trials by leveraging the risk reduction achieved by the 2006 and 2008 trials."

"In the development of its turret, Lockheed Martin told Army Technology that in order to ‘[achieve] required fire control system performance and safety’ the company chose to develop its own ‘integrated systems’ from UK suppliers. The company added that this allowed them to develop a modular system used on both AJAX and Warrior CSP."

At an oral evidence session of the UK Parliament’s Defence Select Committee, Francis Tusa Editor of Defence Analysis told MPs: “The problems we have had, in the UK, with the 40 millimetre cased telescoped ammo have not been replicated in France, where they have taken the system, all of it, as designed. It is now in full-scale production.

“They now have a turret that would fit if we wanted to, just for the sake of argument (Which the UK is getting.-Mine), put it on to a Boxer. It works absolutely fine. Yes, there have been problems along the way, without a shadow of a doubt, but it works. That is because they (France-Mine) had a much more coordinated approach to the development, design and then how they were going to put it into production.”

Under Heading: Problems along the way in the UK

To be sure as noted by Francis Tusa Editor of Defence Analysis above there were some minor technical issues with the CT-40, however they were all addressed by 2014. Again the French are well ahead of the UK in the total system as that's how they moved ahead, by keeping it all together, weapon and subsystems.

The first few paras deal with the "blame game" from the UK Manufactures Group on the CT-40, Contract issues and miscommunications, I leave these for the reader to discern.

Moving on...

In its evidence, General Dynamics also said that a ‘stable and defined build standard’ was not realised until the AJAX contract was recast in 2019.

Countering both companies’ evidence, the MOD told Army Technology: “Qualification of the weapon has continued in parallel with the development of the platforms. Whilst this did require some change and resultant schedule impact, the slippage due to CT40 was not a significant contributor to the delays in the development of the platforms themselves.

“The CT40 design was fixed for cannon production in March 2015 and the interface has not changed; in 2015 CT40 was sufficiently characterised for integration.”

"A source also told Army Technology that by 2019 cannon qualifications were done and added that during the development process Lockheed Martin made little effort to work with CTA International, instead preferring to work with the MOD on issues with the cannon as it is supplied as government furnished equipment (GFE)."

"Army Technology understands that the MOD mandated the cannon as AJAX and Warrior CSP’s main armament but did not mandate the weapons subsystems, hence Lockheed’s decision to develop its own."

Under Heading: What’s next for Warrior, AJAX and Jaguar?

"As it stands, all three (Really 4 I have found a couple of articles suggesting the German BOXER T40 has been fully tested, as like the French, they bought the complete system.-Mine) vehicles featuring the CT40 cannon have largely ironed out development issues and are making good progress. Lockheed Martin expects a production contract to be signed for Warrior CSP next year, General Dynamics has finished production of 60 AJAX (12 are in OPEVAL with an active unit.-Mine vehicles, and Jaguar is slated for deliveries late this year."

"Nexter for its part is offering the MOD a Boxer MIV module fitted with the turret used on its Jaguar vehicle. The system dubbed Boxer T40 would fill a requirement for direct fire capability for the British Army’s planned STRIKE Brigades (This could kill WARRIOR CSP.-Mine).

"A question mark has been placed over the Warrior CSP programme, with one source telling Army Technology that the vehicle is in the most doubt as the UK looks to reassess its forces in an upcoming integrated review of defence security and foreign policy. Earlier this year it was reported by the Times that the UK was assessing options to axe its entire fleet of Main Battle Tanks (MBTs) and IFVs."

And I'm leaving it there that Defense Review is putting CHALLENGER 2 (And upgrade.), AJAX and finally WARRIOR CSP in doubt.

So CHALLENGER 2is in service. AJAX is in OPEVAL, WARRIOR CSP still in finishing touches of development and JAGUAR becoming operational by mid+ - 2021 I'm thinking.

The "wildcard" will be the BOXER T40 which I feel could contribute to the end of both AJAX and WARRIOR CSP. The other driver not mentioned is ARIES which if I read it correctly, in one of my most recent refs, is about to start production and will have a RECON version as well.

I also see another path for AJAX in that MOD does buy the 60 units as noted above and ends the production run there.

We definitely know one thing for sure though and that is AJAX will need a new START, if we allow for a quick with no further issues during the OPEVAL, then I recommend JAN 2022 (Maybe, as I see a smaller path to it OCT 2021) to include an increase in TI/GSR to Min 45/Max50 as well.

I don't know what more I can add to this except from my folder of refs that covers segments or more of this full article.
https://www.army-technology.com/feat...use-of-delays/


Regards,
Pat
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  #512  
Old November 15th, 2020, 01:56 PM
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Default Re: APC Development and related topics.

Some more diving into the Japanese OBAT:

Units 094 (Type 89) and 095 (Type 89 Kai) may have incorrect Weapon #2.

Currently, both have Weapon 158 (Chu-MAT ATGM) as Weapon #2.

In all the sources I can find for the Type 89 IFV:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Type_89_IFV
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/89%E5%...97%98%E8%BB%8A

It is described as having the Type 79 Jyu-MAT ATGM, which is already in the Japanese OBAT as Weapon 157 (Jyu-MAT ATGM).

I decided to take a deep dive into Japanese ATGMs since I was already looking at stuff:

Sources:
http://www.designation-systems.net/non-us/japan.html
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/64%E5%...B0%8E%E5%BC%BE
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/79%E5%...B0%8E%E5%BC%BE
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/87%E5%...B0%8E%E5%BC%BE
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/96%E5%...83%86%E3%83%A0
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8...B0%8E%E5%BC%BE
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/01%E5%...B0%8E%E5%BC%BE

Random Japanese Trivia
Normally, the Acronym for ATGM should be Anti Tank Missile (ATM), but due to social unrest in the 1960s in Japan, since the JGSDF was just getting started, in order to avoid a mistake like ATM = Atom in public perception, the JGSDF decided to call their ATGMs as MAT = Missile Anti Tank.

Type 64 MAT / ATM-1 / Internal Kawasaki Designation KAM-3
There were two versions, ATM-1 and ATM-1B. The -1B version had a lengthened warhead section to increase penetration power, but the missile length remained the same. This was a wired MCLOS missile flying very slowly at 85 m/sec.

Type 79 Jyu-MAT / ATM-2 / Jyu = Heavy / Internal Kawasaki Designation KAM-9
Basically, it is very similar to BGM-71 TOW, and is in the same role (Heavy MAT / 通称重MAT) but with Japanese operational needs taken into mind, such as having a anti-landing craft mode. Wired SACLOS at 200 m/sec flight speed.

Type 87 Chu-MAT / ATM-3 / Chu = Medium / Internal Kawasaki Designation KAM-40
This is in the Middle MAT (中MAT) role, and it was designed to replace the Type 64 MAT for infantry units. Is a Semi Active Laser Homer, with 250 m/sec flight speed.

Type 96 MPMS / ATM-4 / Internal Kawasaki Designation KAM-20
This was designed to replace both the Type 87 Medium MAT and Type 79 Heavy MAT in either role; but ended up being in a completely new category as the first Fiber Optic Wire Guided Missile in service in the West. As before, it includes the usual Japanese "anti-landing craft" mode. Due to the extreme cost of the Type 96 MPMS, only a few were procured.

Type 01 LMAT / ATM-5
Designed as successor for the 84mm Carl Gustaf M2 as an infantry AT weapon. It's an IR homer which contains the first uncooled IR sensor in a ATGM. It's basically like the Javelin and Spike, but Japanese.

MMPM / XATM-6 / Shin-Chu-MAT / Shin = New; so the name means New Medium ATM
This is a IR homer / Semi Active Laser Homer with some technology taken from the Type 01 Light MAT. It was first funded in the 2009 budget, and the first infantry units began to receive them in 2011.

84mm Recoilless Rifle (B) / Carl Gustaf M3
Procurement began in the 2012 budget, with preferential deployment to the Amphibious Rapid Deployment Brigade followed by the 1st Airborne Brigade. In order to distinguish it from the earlier 84mm Recoilless Rifle (Carl Gustaf M2) procured by the JGSDF, the (B) was appended to the name. Unlike the earlier M2, the M3 will not be purely anti-armor, but a multipurpose weapon.

Random Note
In Japanese Service, the Panzerfaust 3 (Weapon 032 in Japanese OBAT), is named LAM = Light-Weight Anti Tank munition).

Last edited by MarkSheppard; November 15th, 2020 at 02:07 PM..
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  #513  
Old November 15th, 2020, 02:29 PM
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Default Re: APC Development and related topics.

So Japanese APCs:

Sources
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/60%E5%...94%B2%E8%BB%8A
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_6...sonnel_Carrier
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/73%E5%...94%B2%E8%BB%8A
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAV7#%...94%A8%E5%9B%BD
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assaul...ibious_Vehicle

Miscellaneous notes
For Japanese IFVs/APCs/Tanks, the most modern stuff is always deployed to Hokkaido to act as deterrence against Soviet operations from the Kuriles.

Type 60 APC
Because only 338 x Type 73 APCs were built, compared to 430~ Type 60 APCs, the Type 60 continued on until the 2000s, with the following numbers being recorded:

1998: 303 in service
2005: 33 in service
2006: None in Service

From the later part of the 1980s, when Type 60s came into the repair shops, they slowly replaced the front bow machine gun from the original 7.62mm M1919 MMG to the 7.62mm Type 74 MMG (Japanese Weapon #069).

AAV7 Family

In 2013, the JGSDF bought four AAVP7's for reference and testing, followed by orders for 54 more in 2016, for a total of 58 AAVP7s, broken down as:

6 x Command Vehicles (AAVC7A1 RAM / RS)
6 x Recovery Vehicles (AAVR7A1 RAM / RS)
46 x APC Vehicles (AAVC7A1 RAM / RS)

Deliveries took place in mid to late 2017 and in March 2018, the new Amphibious Rapid Deployment Brigade was formed.
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  #514  
Old November 15th, 2020, 06:21 PM
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FASTBOAT TOUGH FASTBOAT TOUGH is offline
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Fallout Re: APC Development and related topics.

Status:

UK: AJAX
https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...combat-forces/
The first of 589 Ajax vehicles have been delivered (Not true, that is the number to ordered.) to the Army here and full operating capability is set for 2025.

Keep in mind the above and others I've already posted concerning FOC. I'm providing the next for "contrast" to demonstrate how fast equipment dates can change and why Don and I can only do the following. Not for how it's intended here but, as to its otherwise visual impact-

This article was from the beginning of this year, again as a reminder IOC hasn't been achieved let alone by this past July as per this ref.

But say it was (IOC) just for "S*its and Giggles", I quote the last para...
"However, whatever the doomsters predict, Ajax is late but will enter service to give the British Army a highly advanced digitised vehicle fleet capable of meeting today’s threats on the battlefield in the 2024 timeframe following the completion of the demonstration phase in 2021."
https://battle-updates.com/gdls-give...an-nettlefold/

Of course the manufacturer has to put a positive spin on things!!!!

Gotta walk!!!

Real quick Australian BOXER in Manufacturer trials that started in mid Oct 2020. Army also just started training with the handful they have. Refs later!!

Getting Dark!!!

Regards,
Pat
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  #515  
Old November 21st, 2020, 09:28 PM
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Default Re: APC Development and related topics.

First clear shots of new NORINCO VN-1 (aka Type 08) 8x8 in Thai service during an exercise. Previously, all we saw of them were on trains with the turrets covered.

From a Thai Facebook page:

Quote:
Armed 30 mm automatic cannon, 7.62 mm co-axle gun, 40 mm automatic grenade launcher, 76 mm smoke grenade launcher, all controlled from inside the vehicle.

....

In addition to all the weapons mentioned above It can also be equipped with 3 additional Red Arrow 73D missile weapons.
But looks like the initial Thai buy is just cannon/MG/AGL, not any ATGM options...





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