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  #1  
Old August 4th, 2010, 10:39 AM

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Default OOB database and found errors

I dumped all the csvs and loaded them into a Postgres database. Then I started to cross check because it is much more easy to do when the data is in a proper database.

Here's the database as a zipped .sql file. It's made for Postgresql 8.3.11, but any 8.x should be ok. It's for people who are already familiar with SQL databases. The tables should go to a new "obat" schema.

The bmu table contains the self-organizing map cell where that particular unit is located. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organizing_map) Only the #1 weapon was used in positioning the unit. In theory, similar units should be close to each others, but YMMV. You can use that to check if there are differences between the same weapon across nationalities as the units should be in the same hex. If they are not it's a clear sign that there is some difference in them. The maps are here http://users.tkk.fi/u/tvenhola/oobSOM.pdf in a single PDF. I'm sorry for some of them are smaller than others, but I hope you can cope with that. Red areas are where that number is high, blue means low. The hexes are numbered from 1 to 3740, in a rectangular lattice of 85x44. I'll probably make a http interface too, but it'll take time.

For Rocket launchers I did a separate thread, but I think I'll list the strange things found in here from now on.

AGL:
Load cost is 1 for some countries, 0 for others, even with the same gun and crew count.
Attached Files
File Type: zip obat.zip (1.76 MB, 60 views)

Last edited by dmnt; August 9th, 2010 at 10:25 AM.. Reason: Updated files
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  #2  
Old August 4th, 2010, 10:45 AM

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Default Re: OOB database and found errors

Ammo Dumps:
Greek Ammo Dump has a weight of 12
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  #3  
Old August 9th, 2010, 03:27 AM

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Default Re: OOB database and found errors

For those who are interested:
http://tukijaverkosto.org/obat/map.html

It contains all the units in V5.0 with modified finnish unit list. All the similar units (except for class and weapon class) are held together. You can use that for example to search for similar units in other nations if you know what you're looking for. I'll probably improve the user interface at some point.

Use example: You want to see if the Flak units have good charasteristics together. You pick the Flak class from the map and choose a unit to check and click on the obatslotno column of that unit---where tooltip says "find units similar to this."

For canadian Bofors 40mm it takes you to http://tukijaverkosto.org/obat/?uid=13222 where you can compare and find that for example the Algerian (and many others) 40mm AAG has a fire control 10 compared to canadian 3. So it could be that the Canadian AAG should have an increased fire control or that it has less good aiming help.
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  #4  
Old August 9th, 2010, 05:29 AM
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Default Re: OOB database and found errors

If somebody could convert this into a common database format this would be very useful, can anybody get this into microsoft office? Or if as you said you have time to improve the interface.
Otherwise needs someone who can use it & understands properly to report the errors.
Perhaps a screenshot of possible error results or cut & pasting into say a word document.
Completly from memory & have not done yet as designers said they work on after summer which suites me AAguns is the biggest area with errors by a long way.
Takes some real looking at though as think majority is cut & paste.
As said memory what it looked like to me.
1) Several guns seem to be generic & the odd one mixes the info from 2 generic guns, you can recognise the gun based on as named in some OOBs
2) The odd multi mount unit if come in 1,2,4 mounts info for one mount one entry looked a bit off say HE Kill for the Quad unit looked wrong.
3) Is a bit of a headache this area but in game terms the 3 major points are probably size (for fire at) & Range FC (for fire by) the odd minor discrepency in HE Kill probably wont impact the game much.
I do plan on looking at it at some point but have discovered you can explain a lot away by casting a human eye over the results & the good news is I think there are very few errors left a fraction of a % which is amazing considering the amount of info involved & the amount of times it has been updated.
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Old August 9th, 2010, 07:42 AM
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Default Re: OOB database and found errors

Just don't assume when you find a discrepancy it's automatically an error. A tank bought surplus and refitted by nation 'X" may have different RF or FC than others of it's type in service with other nations for example and whoever added it to the OOB may have made adjustments because of that so don't be too hasty to homogenize the database as you may be putting in errors when you think you are correcting them.

There are over 35,000 units in MBT alone and the chances that all units or weapons of one type are exactly the same when used by a dozen or more nations is exactly zero.

Tank ammo used for things like T-72's are another example where the wide variety of sabot/ HEAT types have been set up by what we found was available and not all types were available or purchaced by all the different client states so ammo with the same "date" may not have the same sabot or HEAT pen because they are using two different rounds and virtually all T-72's have different ammo load combinations and that's deliberate. Some have "AP" ammo when no plain "AP" ammo was ever produced for the 125mm gun but those simulate earlier sabot rounds.

My point is if all you do is look down a database list for discrepancies you WILL find them but given all the work that's gone into this in the last few years there is a good chance they may be that way for a reason but I don't keep notes on every one of the 35,000+ units or 15,000+ weapons in that one game

However, things like Greek ammo dumps having a weight of 12.. yeah, that's an error


Don
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  #6  
Old August 9th, 2010, 09:16 AM

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Default Re: OOB database and found errors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imp View Post
If somebody could convert this into a common database format this would be very useful, can anybody get this into microsoft office? Or if as you said you have time to improve the interface.
Otherwise needs someone who can use it & understands properly to report the errors.
It's way too big for excel or any other spreadsheet program. The data consists of 86 columns and 34360 rows making it too slow and cumbersome for office programs. BTW, postgresql is a widely used open source database along with mysql, but I chose it because of better built-in functions and adherence to standards.

Quote:
I do plan on looking at it at some point but have discovered you can explain a lot away by casting a human eye over the results & the good news is I think there are very few errors left a fraction of a % which is amazing considering the amount of info involved & the amount of times it has been updated.
Yes, the developers have indeed made a huge effort but I hope this can be useful in cross-checking and having each nation reported the same way. This can spot for example units with the out-of-line class choices, such as the Somalian Heavy O/M Artillery, which is 130mm and every other nation has Medium O/M Artillery as a class. Just a minor issue, but it helps you switch between the nations.

I'm currently replacing the data with official one, so please be patient. The results you see might be wrong as long as I haven't updated the whole database.
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Old August 9th, 2010, 10:22 AM

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Default Re: OOB database and found errors

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG View Post
Just don't assume when you find a discrepancy it's automatically an error. A tank bought surplus and refitted by nation 'X" may have different RF or FC than others of it's type in service with other nations for example and whoever added it to the OOB may have made adjustments because of that so don't be too hasty to homogenize the database as you may be putting in errors when you think you are correcting them.
Of course, this is a tool to find possible errors and easy cross-checking. You can never override the human judgement and information, this tool should only show the blatant errors and then some possible errors (like the Canadian Bofors example).

Quote:
My point is if all you do is look down a database list for discrepancies you WILL find them but given all the work that's gone into this in the last few years there is a good chance they may be that way for a reason but I don't keep notes on every one of the 35,000+ units or 15,000+ weapons in that one game
Sure, only the obvious ones should be reported and some possible ones discussed. Again, this is a tool to help obat editors so you can easily check where this kind of weapon charasteristics usually go. For example in my own mods I have to occasionally cross check the units statistics and then if I want to be sure, I have to check multiple nations. That's how I noted the Czech (IIRC) rocket launcher size 0 and came up with an idea of an automated tool. (So, I finally found some use to my university studies...)

Anyway you guys are doing a stellar job, I just wanted to have an automaton that could inform about mistakes and possible mistakes.

And good news, the Finnish OOB is now the default, 5.0 one. So you can use that to check for apparent mistakes.
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  #8  
Old August 9th, 2010, 12:18 PM
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Default Re: OOB database and found errors

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmnt View Post
This can spot for example units with the out-of-line class choices, such as the Somalian Heavy O/M Artillery, which is 130mm and every other nation has Medium O/M Artillery as a class. Just a minor issue, but it helps you switch between the nations.


What are you talking about ? If your database says that your database is in error

There IS NO "Somalian Heavy O/M Artillery" using using 130mm guns ( UC 156 ) or ANY guns for that matter. All Off map 130 mm guns are UC 155 " O/M Medium artillery" in that OOB

Searching for Units of class 155 O/M Medium Artillery
229 - 122mm Platoon - Available 01/069 to 12/091
230 - 122mm Platoon - Available 01/075 to 12/093
231 - 122mm Platoon - Available 01/084 to 12/093
232 - 130mm Platoon - Available 01/076 to 12/090
233 - 155mm Platoon - Available 06/082 to 12/090
234 - 155mm Platoon - Available 01/086 to 12/090

and those are found in
210 Medium Battery - Available: 01/69-12/93
211 Med Howitzer Bn - Available: 01/69-12/90

Searching for Units of class 156 O/M Heavy Artillery
NOTHING

Don

Last edited by DRG; August 9th, 2010 at 12:28 PM..
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Old August 9th, 2010, 12:24 PM
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Default Re: OOB database and found errors

It's also totally Irrelevant to the OOB's if a 130mm gun is classed as "heavy" on one OOB and "Medium" in another. There could be a dozen reasons why that was done one of which would be that's the way they are employed by that nation

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Old August 9th, 2010, 12:27 PM
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Default Re: OOB database and found errors

..and if it's the Finn OOB you are referring to stand in line. There have been so many Finns "correcting" that OOB that other Finns "corrected" it's bordering on ridiculous. OOB "correction" appears to be a nation sport in Finland and everybody who does it thinks they have it "right"

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