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Old October 24th, 2018, 04:58 AM

Kiwikkiwik Kiwikkiwik is offline
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Default Start dates

I have noticed some discrepancies in service dates.

This site

http://amizaur.prv.pl/www.wargamer.o...ns/soviet.html

says this

57mm and 76mm APCR projectiles were accepted into service in October 1943. In 1943 a maximum of 8 rounds per vehicle were issued to units deployed in defensive positions where the Germans were expected to attack. By the Spring of 1944 all vehicles had at least 4 rounds each. Source: Russian Military Zone. Zaloga in the Red Army Handbook 1939–1945 states that 76mm APCR projectiles were issued from August 1942, however Valeriy Potapov from the Russian Military Zone tells me that production was delayed until October 1943 due to their very low quality

Units 49, 50, 88, 281, 283, 282, 310, 315, 317, 534, 731, 794 have their sabot earlier, some much earlier.

It also says

85mm APCR projectiles were accepted to service in February 1944. Source: Russian Military Zone.

Units 381, 382, 193 have their sabot earlier

Hawkins mine's introduction date is June 1942

https://www.lexpev.nl/minesandcharge...wkinsmine.html

You have it available in 1941 in many units, 619 for example.

Weapons of the WWII Tommy by Gordon gives the start date for the No. 68 AT Rifle grenade of November 40 your weapon 93.

As above No. 68 AT Rifle availiable in many units before its introduction date, available in 1930 for example.

This site has some good information on the PIAT

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.p...tish&Itemid=59

Unit 192 seems to have got their PIATS a little early though. Rottmans book World war II Infantry Anti-tank tactics agrees with the web site.

The 17 pdr sabot shell is available in GB OOB unit 103 before june/july 44

For the 6 pdr Anthony G Williams says on his website,

http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/Molins.htm

In June 1944, just in time for D-day, the APDS (armour piercing discarding sabot) shot was introduced. Wikipedia says March 44

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_QF_6-pounder

Using the Later date these units have 6 pdr discarding Sabot too early, 14, 35, 61, 225, 363, 367, 417, 769.

British armour introduction dates seem to be production dates not service dates.

Chamberlans and Ellis's book British and American tanks of World war two says this

Archer equipped anti-tank battalions ... in Europe from October.

You have them issued one month earlier September.

The same book gives the Archilles introduction date as late 44 but this website gives introduction date of 6/44

https://www.dday-overlord.com/en/mat...k/m10-achilles

You have 5/44 the date the conversions actually began.

Great Britian unit 45 Bishop seems a little optimistic with a start date of 1/42. Order for production arrived in November 41 then they had to be built, transported to Africa (around Cape Horn most probably) and a bit of training.

Rottmans book bazokas says this

Army and Marines first use of Bazookas in the Pacific was on New Britian in Dec 1943. ... 112th cavalry regiment.

You have them issued for USMC OOB quite a bit earlier than this.

Jentz's Panzer Tracts 7-1 on PanzerJaeger says this

Two more replacements (pzg1) arrived in early november 1942.

They were added to Panzer-Abteilung 605 which still had at least 11 up until El Alemain.
At the moment Pzj 1s last date is 3/42 this should be at least 11/42 or later. Also units 387 and 42 are both pzj1 the only difference seems to be the radio code. maybe they can be combined?

Jentz's Panzer Tracts 7-1 on PanzerJaeger says this about unit 484 SdKfz 8 FlaK 18

20 August 1942 ... still had 3
and
The last 3 had been lost by March 43

Game has last date as 10/42

Jentz's Panzer Tracts 15-1 says this about unit 166 SdKfz 250/11

1 October 1942, the 10.Pz.Div. reported that they were in possesion of all 18 s.Pz.B.41 that had been authorised.

start date is now 1/43 should be 10/42

Weapon 245 in the German OOB was first used in October 40 first available in the game on 4/42

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_Bomb
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C148379

I noticed that the weapon 242 SD4 has armour penetration values of 0 whereas these web sites say it is about 5 inches.

http://ww2f.com/threads/german-clust...b-units.12704/

https://books.google.com.au/books?id...SD-4HI&f=false

Barker and Wilsons book Russian Infantry weapons give intoduction date for wpn 93 VDG M30 Rfl Grn as 1930 your first use is 1936.

Rottmans book World war II Infantry Anti-tank tactics says this about the unit 143 PTRS obr.41 ATR

Saw there first combat use in November 41.

You have them issued for 10/41 not much in it I guess.
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Old October 24th, 2018, 08:37 AM
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Default Re: Start dates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik View Post
I have noticed some discrepancies in service dates.
Live with it or build your own OOB's and post them to the MOD's forum. The last "suggestion" you made that I implemented ended up causing nearly 50 scenarios to be rebuilt and 5 campaigns. This ends now. it is impossible to have a database this large without some discrepancies mostly as the result of source material as you noted above.....one source claims one thing another claims something else and sometimes that date we use is an averaged compromise..or we go with one source over another and in many cases the sources being touted as " authoritative" now did not exist when the OOB was first written. Most games like this don't last 20 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik View Post



I noticed that the weapon 242 SD4 has armour penetration values of 0 whereas these web sites say it is about 5 inches.
What you didn't notice because obviously, you didn't know, is that weapon uses the HE pen column when it attacks armour and the 6 value it has there is more than enough for the top armour it strikes

EDIT... and
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik View Post
Also units 387 and 42 are both pzj1 the only difference seems to be the radio code.
NO there is more than radio code difference. One has Sabot ammo and the other does not and that is the reason there are two units
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Old October 26th, 2018, 02:35 PM
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Exclamation Re: Start dates

All this has gone onto the list but I am BURIED this year not only OOB data but other aspects of both games as well and if I get to them and if I check my own sources and agree with your suggestion and it doesn't create knock-off problems then MAYBE it will be changed but I have had my fill of mass firehose enema "error" lists mostly the result source variations from between the time they were first written and now...... the validity of which is yet to be determined. Just because some other source has slightly different dates it doesn't mean they are correct.
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Old October 28th, 2018, 01:13 PM
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Exclamation Re: Start dates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik View Post
I have noticed some discrepancies in service dates.

57mm and 76mm APCR projectiles were accepted into service in October 1943. In 1943 a maximum of 8 rounds per vehicle were issued to units deployed in defensive positions where the Germans were expected to attack. By the Spring of 1944 all vehicles had at least 4 rounds each. Source: Russian Military Zone. Zaloga in the Red Army Handbook 1939–1945 states that 76mm APCR projectiles were issued from August 1942, however Valeriy Potapov from the Russian Military Zone tells me that production was delayed until October 1943 due to their very low quality

Units 49, 50, 88, 281, 283, 282, 310, 315, 317, 534, 731, 794 have their sabot earlier, some much earlier.
In your haste to point out our "errors" you made one of your own and overlooked the fact that howitzers DO NOT us the AP column unless they are firing cluster munitions so when an on map howitzer shows " sabot" it's an NOT " sabot".... it's an AP round with it's own max range when used for anti tank work that differs from the indirect fire range of the howitzer
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Old October 28th, 2018, 06:05 PM
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Mobhack Mobhack is offline
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Default Re: Start dates

And that fact is in there in the Mobhack help (as is the fact that class 11(?) air weapons use HE AP values - because planes use the AP ammo line for #cannons as also mentioned there). If you have not read Mobhack's help file, you can find it off the main menu of the tool.
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Old October 29th, 2018, 03:12 PM
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Default Re: Start dates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik View Post
Weapons of the WWII Tommy by Gordon gives the start date for the No. 68 AT Rifle grenade of November 40 your weapon 93.

As above No. 68 AT Rifle available in many units before its introduction date, available in 1930 for example.
..if a " Rifle grenade" is not given "AP ammo" in the units weapon slot it is not an AT HEAT weapon and will not attack as such and only three ( 3 ! ) in all the OOBs had AP ammo before November 1940 and NONE back to 1930..in fact none before 1940......so another example of an "error" not much of an error .
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Old October 30th, 2018, 04:58 AM

Kiwikkiwik Kiwikkiwik is offline
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Default Re: Start dates

Thank you very much for having a look I'll try to digest the information you have provided and avoid similar mistakes in future
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