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Old January 23rd, 2019, 04:22 AM

Kiwikkiwik Kiwikkiwik is offline
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Default British oob

I started off looking at British use of halftracks but I uncovered quite a lot of other stuff so here it is. There is actually a monumental reference for the British TOEs, the four books published through Helion by Mark Bevis, British and Commonwealth Armies 1939-45. This is basically just presenting Marks work. Also War Establishments is very handy.
http://www.warestablishments.net/GBInfantry.html

but first, in Steven Zalogas book US half tracks of World War 2 he says this

Thirty (GMC T48, 57mm gun Half track) were supplied to Britain , where they were reconverted back to personnel carriers

Meskos M3 half track in actions says this

680 (GMC T48, 57mm gun Half track) were shipped to the British,... The British kept only a small number of their vehicles, which were also converted back to the half track configuration.

So Unit 189 M3 SP 6 Pdr should be removed from the British OOB.

Units 131 and 312 Halftrack SPM don't exist. British only used the 3 inch mortar dismounted out of a universal carrier.
You have two versions of Motor Infantry. One called Motor infantry one called Mech Infantry, both contain errors. The Mech Infantry formations listed below, travel in half tracks and turretless tanks which is how Motor Infantry or regular infantry travel. Motor infantry were always called Motor infantry irrespective of whether they travelled in trucks or halftracks. For clarity's sake the duplicate Mech Infantry formations should be deleted. This is safe to do because each is just a duplicate of its correctly named Motor equivalent.
002 Mech Inf Co 1/42-12/46
003 Mech Inf Co+ 1/42-12/46
014 Mech Recce Sec 1/43-12/46
041 Mech Inf Pl 1/42-12/46
070 Mech AT-Gun Sec 1/42-12/46
071 Mech AT Gun Tp 1/42-12/46
170 Mech Hvy AT Sec 2/43-12/46
171 Mech Hvy AT Tpc 2/43-12/45
014 Mech Recce Sec seems to be modelled on a Recce section, No Stuarts in Motor formations only in Recce formations. No 17 pdrs (Your 170, 171 formations) in Motor infantry. In the formations where 17 pdrs do exist they can be towed by Cromwell tower or Truck as well as Halftrack, you have just halftrack.
This leaves mech infantry, formation 330 Mech Patrol, correctly carried in carriers, and a full suit of correctly named Motor Infantry. A Motor battalion is always attached to an Armoured divisions Armoured Brigade, it has a very specific structure. Armoured divisions can also contain a free standing "Motorised Brigade" composed of "lorried" infantry battalions with a completely different structure to Motor Infantry. Your Motor Formations are a hybrid between motor and lorried infantry. Motor infantry sections are -always- 8 men you have 10 men.
OK so Motor formations are
009 Motor MG Pl 30
012 Motor Bn AT Pl
013 Motor Bn Spt Co 1/30-5/41
020 Motor Bn Spt Co 6/41-12/46
331 Motor Coy 35
332 Motor Coy 43
333 Motor Coy 30
335 Motor Inf Pl 30
336 Motor Inf Pl 43
340 Motor Bn HQ
345 Motor MG Pl 43
356 Motor Recce
356 Motor Recce, These are motorcycles, Motor Battalions did not have motorcycle recce. A motorcycle battalion was in existence in june 1940 but is not part of a Motor Battalion so should drop Motor from 356s name. At this time British Infantry Divisions also had MC with sidecars, living in their Divisional recce.

So including the above Mech formations you have 5 different Motor coys. I have looked at the evolution of the Motor battalions in Beavis and suggested 5 replacement Motor coys with service dates that match the changes in formation structure, your service dates don't do this. Rather than just list the errors in the current Motor Battalion formations Ive matched Beavis's and your current formations as chronologically as I can and shown how the current coys can be morphed into a correct structure as in Bevis. I've mentioned some of the errors in the process. Truck and light lorry refers to 15 cwt truck.

331 Motor Coy 35 1/35 to 12/46 can be transformed into the Early Motor coy TOE from about 2/41 to 3/42. On 3/42 TOE changes significantly.
Coy HQ should be 2 two Infantry sections one with Boys one with 2" mortar, Coy HQ's 2" mortar is missing, one section has a SMG and is only 3 men. SMG in unit 702 should be removed as SMGs were not issued to Motor Infantry. So Replace units 701 and 435 with 479 (needs end date extended) and 900 (needs end date extended). Coy HQs may not have had Rifle grenades.
Motor Coys at this time have only 2 vickers HMG you have 4. Each HMG has its own light lorry. Your formation has each HMG pair sharing a light lorry.
The Coy has a Mortar platoon. Two 3" mortars, each has a light lorry for transport. Your formation has no mortars.
In the platoons every section has a boys rifle. So a section with a boys rifle needs to be included in "infantry" picklist. No Hawkins mines at this time.
Motor Coys -always- included a 3 section carrier platoon called a scout platoon. Your formation has only 2 carrier sections. You would benefit by creating and including a formation "scout platoon" that would give you the correct 3 sections instead of the current 2 and a scout platoon HQ. This also frees up a slot in the Coy formation.

332 Motor Coy 43 1/43 to 12/46 can be turned into the Later Motor Coy from about 9/43 to 1/44 For these dates the TOE should change to;
Coy HQ, two Infantry sections one with 2" mortar And one with or without a PIAT/boys (Your coy HQ has 2" missing, includes a SMG and one section is only 3 men. SMG can be removed they were not issued to Motor Coys. Mech scouts picklist should be a full section with one section with PIAT/boys and one section without. Replace unit 702 and 451 with 479/173 (needs end/start date extended) and 900 (needs end date extended). Coy HQs may not have had Rifle grenades
You have HMGs correct.
The Coy has a Mortar platoon. Two 3" mortars in carriers. Your formation has no mortars.
SMG armed units should be removed from medium and infantry picklists.
Mortar and HMG Platoons transport is just as likely to be trucks as carriers.
2 carrier sections need to be replaced with a carrier scout platoon as for 331.

003 Mech Inf Co+ 1/42 to 12/46 can be turned into Last Motor Coy 1/44 to 12/46. During this time the MG platoon was moved into the Support Coy. For these dates TOE should be Coy HQ; Remove STEN and add 2" mortar and PIAT. Replace unit 702 with 902.
Replace two 3" halftracks with two 3" Mortars carried in carriers.
Remove units 540 and 542 from Medium infantry, both have a STEN which was not issued to Motor infantry.
AT guns are kept in the Battalion Support Coy (which appears below), so should be removed, but I guess they are in the Mech Inf Co+ for convenience.
The carrier scout platoon needs to be added.

002 Mech Inf Co 1/42-12/46 can be used to fill the gap 3/42 to 9/43. At this time TOE changed from 3 to 2 platoons per Coy and the AT support coy appears. Changes required are;
Coy HQ Replace unit 702 with 900 (needs end date extended). Just the 2" mortar in coy HQ at this time
Remove one Motor platoon. 2 only at this time.
Add platoon with two 3" Mortars carried in carriers.
Add platoon with 4 HMG in carriers.
Remove unit 469 from Heavy infantry picklist as it can give 4 2" mortars per platoon instead of 1 ( only ever 1). Remove unit 468 from Medium infantry (Platoon HQ) as no LMG in platoon HQ. Add unit 408 (needs end date extended) to Heavy infantry picklist to allow for 4 boys per platoon.
The carrier scout platoon needs to be added.

Which leaves 333 Motor Coy 30 1/30 to 12/34 to become the very First Motor battalion. Earliest Motor formation I can find is start date 38 and end date should be about 2/41 when structure changes significantly.
For this time period structure should be Coy HQ; Two infantry sections one with Boys, one with 2" mortar (Your formation currently doesn't have these weapons and one section is only 3 men) so change units 700 and 487 to 479 and 900 (needs end date extended). Coy HQs may not have had Rifle grenades
Should have only two vickers HMG currently 4. Each HMG has its own light lorry. Your formation has each HMG pair sharing a light lorry.
The formation has two 3" mortars each in a truck. Your formation has no mortars.
Every section has a boys rifle. So one of the Medium infantry choices should have a boys rifle. A section with a boys rifle needs to be included in "infantry" picklist.
The carrier scout platoon needs to be added.

Just looking at the platoons, 335 Motor Inf Pl 30 and 336 Motor Inf Pl 43 need units 540, 542 and 532 removed from their picklists as SMGs aren't issued to Motor platoons. I think I mentioned this earlier but weapon 184 Hawkins mine has an issue date of june 42 you have it appearing earlier. Available in 5/40 for unit 468 Rifle Section for example.

So on to the Motor Infantry Support Coys, 013 Motor Bn Spt Co 1/30 to 5/41 and 020 Motor Bn Spt Co 6/41 to 12/46 These formations never have mortars, yours have mortars. Mortars are always in the motor Coy itself. Except in 3-6/40 when the support platoon consists of just four 3" mortars with trucks and nothing else. There is also a single example of a support coy with nothing other than four 37mm AT portee in 3/40, otherwise no Support coys until 3/42. Mortars are always 3" never 4.2". You have 4.2" in the support Coy, 4.2" mortars are held at Brigade level in regular infantry and don't appear at all in Motor Battalions.
Support Coy 013 start date should be 3/42 as there are no support coys prior to this except the 3" and 37mm exceptions above. The first Support Coys starting in 3/42 contain only AT Guns, no HMGs, so end date should be 5/44, when HMGs were included. So for 013 Spt Coy remove the Mortars and HMGs. Most commonly there are 4 AT platoons of four guns each. You have 3 platoons of 4 guns this configuration arrives in 6/43 up until this date the guns are always 2pdr or 6pdr and always Portee, after this date they can be portee or towed (when towed, always towed by a truck usually 15cwt).
Support Coy 020 can then have service dates of 5/44 to 12/46 corresponding to the start date for inclusion of HMGs in the support Coy. HMGs are always 2 platoons of 4 each and are always carried in carriers. You have them in trucks. Most commonly there are 3 AT platoons with 4 guns each as you have. AT guns can be carried in Trucks or Lloyd carriers. So remove the mortars and the rifle sections STEN. For both formations FOOs are probably best left in formation 340 Motor Bn HQ.

Your Motor Bn HQ has carriers these don't exist in Bn HQ. It is usually just 2 trucks and 2 rifle sections up until the changeover to half tracks when it goes to 3-4 halftracks and still doesn't have any carriers. A utility vehicle is indeed sometimes in attendance.

Transport has some issues. The first problem is the 3 types of turretless kangaroo and churchill tank troop carriers, these should be removed from the motor infantry transport picklist. These vehicles were in separate Armoured carrier regiments which were always used to carry regular infantry as the Motor infantry already had their own transport which didn't include turretless tanks. Transport in the Motor battalion infantry sections is either 15 cwt truck or half track. The small size of the 15 cwt truck is what limited motor infantry squads to 8 men. The 8 men includes the driver. So maybe unit 288 Morris 15cwt should have a carrying capacity of 8 instead of 12 reflecting this. Sections remained 8 men after Halftracks came into use.

If you look at the Bevis books and elsewhere it is clear your half track formation introduction dates are about 2 years too early on 1/42. Half track equipped British motorised brigades weren't committed to action until about 4/44 in Italy. Production of the Lend Lease halftrack M5, which is what Britain used, didn't get off the ground until Dec 42 and began arriving in UK in 43. The 15 cwt trucks are 2x4 until late 43 when the 4x4 version is issued.

Irrespective of date Motor Coys always has a scout platoon with three, 3 carrier sections, The structure of this formation remained virtually unchanged throughout the war. Carriers can also appear in recce Regiments where they were only ever used as a stopgap replacement for Armoured cars. There are no other "fighting" carrier formations in the British army.
The carrier sections that made up a scout platoon were just that, a "normal" infantry section of 10 men crewing 3 carriers. Each carrier section has 3 carriers, one PIAT/Boys, one 2" mortar, 3 BRENs, one 10 man section. This configuration remains constant throughout the war, extra weapons were never issued to scout platoon vehicles. If the carrier is replacing an armoured car in recce extra weapons can be present but rarely. So there was only ever one type of scout platoon and there was only be one type of carrier section in it, you have 3.
Formation 367 carrier patrol has 15 men when it should have 10. can be deleted.
Formation 45 carrier section has 18 men when it should have 10, and has 3 PIATS instead of 1 and depending on the pick list 6 instead of 3 LMG. I recommend removing this formation also.
Formation 330 mech patrol has 11-13 men which is closer to the 10 man limit but can be drastically overarmed. This Mech patrol can be configured to have 5 PIATs and 4 2" mortars not to mention 3 BREN guns. All 3 BREN carriers in the pick list have 2 weapons each so you need 6 gunners and 3 drivers minimum, 9 men to operate the carriers but you also have 10 men that can dismount.
So using mech patrol to create the carrier section we need to remove unit 456 PIAT carrier and 461 BREN carrier from the picklist this removes 3 of the 4 possible extra PIATs and the 3 extra mortars. Replace the remaining unit 453 the 2 BREN MG BREN carrier with the 1 BREN LMG carrier unit 133 or 550. So now the section has a driver and one gunner in each carrier leaving 4 dismountable men, perhaps a 2 man PIAT team and a 2 man mortar team. Alternately have one carrier with a 2" mortar instead of a BREN LMG and 2 BREN single LMG carriers, that allows for a 6 man crew and the carriage of a single 4 man PIAT/LMG team. As the carriers weren't really considered particularly bulletproof, it is also possible to have 3 carriers with no armament giving 3 crew and something like a 3 man PAIT/LMG team and a 4 man LMG/mortar team. Also it is possible to have 1 PIAT carrier and no PIAT in the dismountable crews. I imagine in reality the 3 carriers operated as a single group especially as only the lead carrier in each 3 carrier section had a radio. Similarly, once dismounted the rifle section probably operated like any other rifle section rather than as 3 very small teams. Platoon HQ is usually one carrier, one Daimler scout car, 1 LMG.
Scout platoons were also part of regular infantry battalions. In regular infantry battalions from 6/44 one of the sections can be 3 wasps, 3 LMGs, 1 2" mortar, 1 PIAT. Your Wasp service start date is 1/43 but should be 6/44 which is when they were first used.
https://www.canadiansoldiers.com/veh...owers/wasp.htm and others
Carriers can appear as towing units and singly or paired as Officer runabouts which is taken care of by formations 396 and 370 1 and 2 carriers.
Some scout platoons retained Boys rifles up until 12/43
Carrier sections were not issued SMGs. So units, 450 Mech Patrol, 177 Patrol, 178 Patrol, 275 Patrol, 457 Mech Patrol, 455 Mech Support and 78 PIAT Team should be removed from carrier picklists as they contain SMGs. The STEN was not particularly popular authors comment on its unreliability and in any case HQ probably thought Carrier sections already had enough firepower with 3 LMGs between the 10 men. In reality the scout platoon was often used for liason, administration or in a transport role instead of scouting as they weren't really a particularly battle worthy vehicle. Visibility when under fire was very limited, the driver couldn't see to either side and the occupants couldn't hear each other above the engine noise.

Carriers occasionally appear in recce regiments operating as stop gap armoured cars in Armoured Car platoons. In this role they were not used as troop carriers and had 3 man crews according to Richard Dohertys book The British Reconnaissance Corps in World War II. The majority of carriers that appeared in recce regiments were configured with a single LMG, but I can find 2 examples of extra PIATs and 1 for extra LMGs being issued to carriers appearing in Armoured car platoons. So here is a spot for carriers 456(PIAT BREN), 461(2" BREN), 284(Boys BREN) and 453(BREN BREN). These 4 vehicles only make sense with a nondemountable crew of 3 and a carrying capacity of 0 because they need all three men to drive and operate the two weapons. Carrying capacity of 0 conforms with their tactical deployment as an armoured car. 2nd Infantry division operated some 7 carrier, 7 LMG recce sections in 44/45 in Burma, 3 crew per carrier, one 2" mortar, otherwise always 3 carriers per section.

I think you call your Universal carrier a BREN carrier and your BREN carrier a Boys carrier, Scout carrier you dont have.
The first Motor battalion (38 to about 1/41 in my chronology) have their scout platoon in BREN carriers (your Boys carrier) the other four Motor coy (that I suggest) use Universals. During 38 to 1/41 you have the scout sections mounted in Universal carriers (your BREN carrier). If you were to create the scout platoon then before 1/41 (the introduction date of Universal carriers into scout platoons) they should have BREN (your Boys) carriers in the picklist. Each 3 carrier BREN, (your Boys) carrier section is crewed by a 6 man section, giving each carrier a two man crew. This being the case it would probably be best if BREN (your Boys) carriers have a carrying capacity of 0, but crew increased to 2. Seating capacity in a BREN carrier is of course 3 max but always had a crew of 2. BREN carriers used in the desert almost always just had a single LMG as armament. In France they had a Boys and a BREN. Also in France this earliest scout platoon has an unarmoured "staff car" instead of a Daimler in platoon HQ

I think I mentioned this before but PIATs/PIAT carriers enter service in 7/43 for the invasion of Sicily you have them available in 1/43

Time to just quickly look at lorried infantry which is presently a hybrid between Motor and Lorried.

Lorried (often called Motorised, as distinct from Motor) infantry (with 10 man sections) -always- travelled 2 sections per lorry. You have 1 truck per section using units 517 1&1/2 Ton Truck or Morris 15cwt as the Lorry, but with a carry capacity of 12 these are too small to carry the 2 sections required but unit 54 Medium lorry could if carry capacity is increased from 18 to 20 and issued 2 per platoon. 294 Bedford might also be suitable and can carry 24. Coy HQ also travels in a lorry, you have them in trucks, only Battalion HQ has trucks. Late in the war regular infantry can travel in turretless tanks from Armoured carrier regiments. The turretless tanks are presently incorrectly part of motorised infantry and need to have their own formation built carrying regular infantry at one section per tank.

Lorried and Regular infantry both used formation 016 Rifle Bn Spt Co. This formation changed a lot but never had nine 3" mortars as it has now, it only ever had 6, often less. The scout platoon in Btn SPT Coy is the same as that in Motor Coy but has 4 sections, currently it only has only 3, a possible formation slots shortage would be solved by using a 4 section scout platoon instead of 3 separate sections. Engineers could be 2 or 3 sections, usually 2, but always carried in a Lorry except late in the war they can travel in a M14 H/T. You have them in trucks. AT guns can be towed by Universal Carriers, Lloyd carriers or trucks you only have trucks as an option. Mortars can be carried by mortar carriers or trucks you have only mortar carriers in the picklist.

While I'm here,

British tank troops are usually 3 tanks, unless a gun tank is included. Formation 112 Valentine Troop with 4 tanks is missing its gun tank, should be three 2pdr and one 6 pdr valentine not four of the same gun. You have 6 pdr valentine available in 7/42 so the 4 tank configuration should maybe start on 7/42, currently formation 112 Valentine Troop starts on 1/41, earliest date I can find for this formation is 11/42. The Valentines should all have their AA guns removed. If you can find even one picture of a Valentine in action with an AA MG you are doing better than me.
Formation 025 Armour Car Trp should be 3 A/Cs not 4. Also formation 142 Mixed A/C Trp was almost always 3 and 3 not 2 and 2. Recce section can also be configured Stuart, Daimler and Carrier.

Infantry (Matilda) troops in France 1940 are either three Matilda I(.303), three Matilda II or two Matilda I(.303) and one Matilda I(.5) never three Matilda(.5) which is what you have. Coy HQ does not include A10 CS tanks which you have. Coy HQ should be one Matilda as appropriate, one Vickers VIB and two staff cars. The different troop types can be mixed within the Coy. Formations 011, 121, 122, 123, 119, 456 and 69 are effected.

Armoured AA trucks, Units 681, 682, 683, 684, 685 don't exist, 20mm were only ever mounted on unarmoured trucks, the units pictures show unarmoured trucks. Even if these vehicles had their armour values returned to 0 there are a few problems. Unit 684 20mm AA Truck-3 actually has the double instead of the triple mount. A triple mounting was in use mounted on an unarmoured truck in 44 in the British 21st army group support. Paired 20mm (683) didn't seem to be issued. Picture for 683 might just be a prototype. The picture for unit 749 Oerlikon AA is of the type 98 Japanese 20mm gun, proving what a rare beast Oerlikons were in the British army.

British unit 563 Churchill AMRCR Hull front Heat value of 109 looks a little high.
Formation 111 Carrier troop has 6 Carriers not sure what this represents.

Here are some online resources for Motor infantry to check against.
https://web.archive.org/web/20160429...0to%201945.htm
or here
http://www.warestablishments.net/GBInfantry.html
Where there are 5 Motor Battalions to choose from. Bevis confirms these formations.
  #2  
Old January 23rd, 2019, 02:55 PM
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Default Re: British oob

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Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik View Post


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You really need to look up the word "brevity" and start applying it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik View Post

The picture for unit 749 Oerlikon AA is of the type 98 Japanese 20mm gun, proving what a rare beast Oerlikons were in the British army.
No so rare in fact------
Quote:
The RAF Regiment made extensive use of Oerlikon guns in the anti-aircraft role. These were the principal armament for its Light Anti-Aircraft squadrons in North Africa, the Middle East, Italy, and North Western Europe, until the introduction of the Bofors 40/L60 40mm gun from 1943, although many squadrons retained a mix of guns until the end of World War 2. Squadrons in the Far East were equipped exclusively with Oerlikons.
..........and that is why they are in the OOB... and as a 91 ( rare) code ....if you don't agree, feel free to edit the OOB's to suit yourself. I will corrected the photo


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik View Post
British unit 563 Churchill AMRCR Hull front Heat value of 109 looks a little high.
*******all mine clearing tanks get a HEAT bonus for the apparatus hanging off the front end . Strange you would not have noticed that ...
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Old February 2nd, 2019, 04:26 AM

Kiwikkiwik Kiwikkiwik is offline
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Default Re: British oob

I realise this is irrelevant for the viewpoint of the game and Im sorry to be splitting hairs here, but the RAF Regiments are actually part of the Air Force. The reference is good if we just substitute Hispano for Oerlikon. This makes sense as British planes used Hispanos and the Oerlikons lacked a self destruct shell (which the navy did not mind, airforce not so keen).
This reference suggests that British Oerlikons went to the navy.

https://ww2db.com/weapon.php?q=188

The production of the first British-made Oerlikon autocannon started in Ruislip, London, England, United Kingdom at the end of 1940, and the first British-made guns were delivered to the Royal Navy in Mar or Apr of 1941.

This site is very interesting.

http://forcespublishing.co.uk/pdfs/t..._adversity.pdf

It is pretty thorough, it says

In April 1940, in an attempt to improve the situation, the Air Ministry approved the temporary release of 500 surplus 20mm Hispano aircraft cannon to supplement the existing aircraft .303" machine guns issued for the air defence of stations.

And mentions the use of Hispanos (not Oerlikons) throughout, so I guess pretty good evidence for no, or certainly very nearly no, Oerlikons in the Air force as well as the Army. I also found this interesting,

The USN’s trials had established that the .303" machine gun lacked the necessary range, rate of fire and hitting power and estimated that the concentrated fire of at least four pairs of Lewis guns would be needed to engage each attacking aircraft with even the minimal prospect of deterrence, let alone the possibility of inflicting lethal damage. The American conclusion was that the .50" machine gun was the smallest calibre weapon which could be effective in the antiaircraft role.

RAF Regiments also used the Lanchester SMG, but not the Army, so Lanchester should probably be removed from unit 384 37mm AT-Gun and replaced with a rifle.

I see about the HEAT. I can see its a good way to do a dozer blade. For the Churchill AMRCR I thought the equipment didn't cover much of the front but I guess it would be about half, good enough I guess. Plough tanks 562 and 557 Im not so sure about, if the ploughs are in the ground, as in 557s picture, I would have thought it didn't gave much protection to the Hull front? For unit 41 Churchill AVRE considering where the Facine is carried, maybe the Facine carrier should have turret front with the high HEAT value instead of the hull? Then again if its carrying a facine it can't shoot its gun, which actually, it can. So wouldn't shooting the gun blast the Facine off the tank? setting the HEAT value to 0?
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Old February 2nd, 2019, 01:50 PM
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Default Re: British oob

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Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik View Post
For unit 41 Churchill AVRE considering where the Facine is carried, maybe the Facine carrier should have turret front with the high HEAT value instead of the hull? Then again if its carrying a facine it can't shoot its gun, which actually, it can. So wouldn't shooting the gun blast the Facine off the tank? setting the HEAT value to 0?
Do you see a facine on the icon ? No, It has equipment to carry it even though it may not have it on at the time the HEAT rating is a generalization that there are obstructions on the front of the hull that would affect HEAT.

But your "hairspliting" and nitpicking is getting tiresome. If you don't like what you see we provide the tools for you to change it but nothing in this thread is going to be applied to the game OOB's so take that as a hint and save yourself the time and effort reporting things I am never going to change. Consider the OOB's more or less locked down after this next patch and I am not making further alterations to them except in exceptional circumstances between now and release. WYSIWYG warts and all. I could tweak and adjust these things for the next decade and someone would still find some detail in some obscure text that differs but after 20 years of this......it near done like it or not and if you like what you see, I'm happy and if you don't I really don't care at this stage.

And SERIOUSLY you felt in necessary to remind us "RAF Regiments are actually part of the Air Force"...... well gee thanks for that startling revelation.........

Don
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Old February 2nd, 2019, 06:19 PM
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Default Re: British oob

May I suggest you join a dedicated WWII forum if you want to share and discuss your findings.
This is a game forum the amount of info you provide means it is falling on deaf ears so share it with those that might have an interest.

Should you find and verify a major error in a unit you could post that for consideration - 1 or 2 units a year. This is what other people do and oddly enough because it’s not information overload they get looked into. Remember it’s a game if it has no real impact on it it’s not important.

If you wished you could post your modified OOB(s) those that are interestead can try them.
Updated photos seem to appeal to a few people so you could continue to post them.
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Old February 7th, 2019, 05:02 AM

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Default Re: British oob

Before 4/44 the British had no armoured infantry that is according to the 4 very reputable, extensively researched volumes by Mark Bevis on exactly that subject, the British war establishments concur as does every other source I've looked at, it's not just what I think, it's the consensus. If anyone has a better reference or even one that disagrees I'd be very much surprised.

Giving the British halftracks, ie armoured infantry, two years early isn't a minor detail because, artillery. Artillery is much more effective in game than in reality, this makes moving around in trucks suicide, but in reality that was the only option the British had before 4/44. Giving the British halftracks two years early gives the British army a capability they never had for those two years, the ability to move large chunks of infantry forward safe from shrapnel and bullets. This has an unquestionably big effect on gameplay. Similarly the Motor infantry was always 8 men, never 10 this also isn't a minor detail, an 8 man section plays differently and is much weaker than a 10 man section. The ubiquitous universal carrier Scout platoon isnt even in the game. That no-one has disputed any of these or the other errors I cited suggests to me that I am well on the money.

Many players probably don't even realise that the British OOB contains this amount of errors, don't you think they should be given the courtesy of a British OOB that doesn't contain major errors? after all the blurb for the game says

winSPWW2 with its amazing amount of historical detail

I'm not sure introducing halftracks 27 months early qualifies as "historical", neither do any of the many other errors I've presented in this thread.
Maybe it is time to expand your team with someone that has the time and enthusiasm to correct the OOBs? I'd be happy to help.

Hi IMP I'm not sure that the amount of info is the problem, the salient points are in there, mentioned again above, I just provide all the detail so DRG can make changes if he wishes with the least effort as I have done as much of the work I can for him already. I appreciate whatever work he decides to do or not to do. I am happy enough if he is just aware of the issues the British OOB has. However I'm not so keen to have what are major flaws in the British OOB characterised and dismissed as hairsplitting and nitpicking, H/T introduction dates two years too early and all that follows, 10 men squads instead of 8, universal carrier recon scout platoon morphed into a substantial fighting unit. All these errors effect gameplay greatly.

I would also point out that the tone of responses in the forum is hardly conducive to posting anything that could be construed as critical. Many forum members would be too frightened to post.
  #7  
Old February 7th, 2019, 10:43 AM
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Default Re: British oob

1/ Have you ever actually edited an OOB ?

2/ Have you ever edited an OOB with an eye to making sure all aspects of the game functions properly after you are done "correcting " it ?

My guess is no to both points but absolutely 2/

The work involved after the research is done is far more extensive than you could possibly know never having had to actually do it...finding and confirming info is the easy part..... making it all fit together is "the trick" that eats through the time available and simple little changes can sometimes spin into far more than they appeared at first so your assertion that " I just provide all the detail so DRG can make changes if he wishes with the least effort as I have done as much of the work I can for him already." is simplistic and insulting but I really don't expect more from anyone not faced with keeping all aspects of the game working in harmony and you aren't the first one to appear with the " I do all the work you just have to apply it" attitude.

We and others have repeatedly suggested to players like you that you can edit your own OOB however you want and you are free to post it to the MODs section but that rarely happens and usually when it does the OOB's are unsuitable for use for anything but PBEM play as they either ignore the reality of the way the game works or simply do not understand it which I suppose is why I'm expected to do the heavy lifting that you only think you are doing.

As for " Artillery is much more effective in game than in reality" well........we don't think so...most casualties in WW2 were caused by artillery but we do understand that as with most things in life, there are people who think otherwise which is why the preferences controls exist and why there is an artillery effectiveness control that anyone can adjust to suit their ideas of "what is correct"..........some players do use those controls and I'm sure you can as well .

As for the British armoured infantry issue. I may dig into this further, or not but as we have said repeatedly..... if you think you can do better...by all means build a copy of the OOB and post it to the MODs forum


Don
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Old February 7th, 2019, 10:57 AM
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Default Re: British oob

What you are overlooking is its a game you can buy what you want the game does not restrict rare units that is up to the player.

British halftracks were rare as hens teeth I have never used them.
However it would be no different to buying a Company of Tiger Bs in 1945
On a side note Brits are one of the harder guys to play realistically not because of the trucks but because you either had armour or you didn't so don't go giving yourself a platoon or 2 of tanks like you can when playing other nations if you want to be realistic.

Pretty sure Brits used halftracks in an infantry role in Africa. Ad hoc use and converted to infantry role like most halftracks in British use. The Brits seem to have been into field modifications think they got AA halftracks of the Americans once the Luftwaffe were not much of a threat. So that's probably mid 43 that does not mean I would use them though.
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Old February 9th, 2019, 03:29 AM

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Default Re: British oob

I do occasionally Mobhack OOBs to test the feasibility of some of my suggestions.
I said "I have done as much of the work as I can" this is not the same as saying "as I do all the work" why is the second quote in parentheses as though I said it? and for the record that isn't my attitude either.

I don't think I am doing the heavy listing and I never said so.
It's a waste of my time to have to continually defend my character, I am not a *****ing, nitpicker that produces nonsense. You think you're insulted, try on my shoes.

I understand it is a nightmare to make changes you repeat this pretty much in every post I make. I am sorry for that I have offered my time to help however possible.

Artillery -is- much more effective in game that in reality, As I have said before the casualty rates are correct and yes you can adjust them. The main problem is that artillery -suppression- is way too high and I can prove it. I already suggested there needs to be an artillery suppression slider next to artillery effectiveness slider on the preferences page.
I posted this before I'll put it here a bit clearer again.

http://nigelef.tripod.com/wt_of_fire.htm

Please have a look at table 5 in this link.

For a 25 pounder the table says that to have a "Morale" (your retreat) effect you need to drop 100 rounds per minute of 25pdr for 15 minutes in 10000 sq yds. So 10000 sq. yds is about 4 hexes, so that is 25 rounds per hex per minute, So in total you need to drop 375 rounds in a hex within 15 minutes to get a Morale effect. If the turns are 3 minutes then -after- 5 turns of 75 rounds per turn we achieve rout/retreat.

I tested this, I put a 1945 German infantry in trenches and shelled them with a light (25pdr) batterie (frm 48) this gave between 6 and 17 shells in each target hex per turn.

The result, after just one turn, even with just 6 shells landing in the hex, all 16 German sections are routed. They should not be routed or even retreating until they have had 375 shells land on them in 15 minutes. So 6 into 375 is 62, your artillery suppression level is -62- times too high.

And that is your best case scenario the site also says this

"The morale and neutralisation data need to be treated with caution; the evidence for achieving the defined demoralisation in 15 minutes was based on a single operation, at Wesel, during the Rhine crossings. Before this it was thought that at least 4 hours were needed."

So Either Nigel F Evans doesn't know what he is talking about or your artillery suppression levels are way too high

The other reason artillery is too effective is that you can walk it onto the target when you cant see the target by having some of the shoot left over for the next turn. This is an impossible accuracy, adjusting fire should be limited to within LOS, I know there are a very few exceptions such as predicted fire but none of them will give you accuracy to within 50m out of LOS, available with the adjustment buttons. So you can exactly hit any target anywhere on the map anytime, too easy. The +/- barrage function is already available in the Bombardment screen to hit targets not visible to the participants which is exactly correct for this type of fire. One way to fix this (not perfect I know) might be to have all the shells in one shoot land in one turn. This would give out of LOS shoots the randomness they require but would still let observed fire stay on target. Artillery HE shell smoke/dust effect would need to be toned right down.

IMP I looked into use of M3/M5 by Britain before 4/44 and found nothing. What you are overlooking is that I may be able to buy historic sure, But what about anyone else who would like to buy historic? They now know what is historic because of my contribution.
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Old February 9th, 2019, 01:23 PM
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Exclamation Re: British oob

I am betting the Germans routing in the trenches were back to Ready
status the turn after the stonking and that they never left their
trench and had you been able to get British troops to the trenches
right away they would have had an easy time but only for a very brief
instant before the Germans recovered and that is the way the game
works. You don't like it. We disagree. It only simulates reality and
it does that sometimes in convoluted ways but the end result makes at
least a few thousand people happy but not you it seems but it is
impossible in all things to make everyone happy. That is a fact of life

That said both Andy and I are done with this and this thread is
closed. I have investigated some of your concerns and addressed many
of them including the PIAT availability issue, the Mech infantry
arriving too soon issue as well as the AAMG issue and the residual
effects of those changes on the Brit OOB spilling over into other
commonwealth nations or other nations using commonwealth equipment but
that is as far as it is going to go . I have no intention of rewriting
whole sections of the Brit OOB which is essentially what you are
asking nor are we going to revise the artillery routine.

For someone who seems to have nearly endless issues with this game I
have to wonder why you continue to play something you obviously
dislike so many aspects of.....OOB's... Coding.... just about
everything about it seems to give you reason to complain....and you do
but there is a thin line between honest criticism and trolling and you
are walking that line . That post you made earlier at 3965 words ( yes
I was curious since it went on and on and on and on so long just how
big it was ) is , I think something of a record on this forum so kudos
to you for verbosity and perseverance and research but both Andy and I
had already decided that it was time to wind down game development
after having done this for over 2 decades already. The sense of
challenge and accomplishment that use to drive us onward is no longer
as strong as it once way and in some things, nonexistent. When a
challenge becomes an annoying chore it's time to find a new challenge.

This next update for SPww2 and SPMBT will have quite a number of new
features added into the games and SPWW2 especially has had a great
many top notch new scenarios and new unit icons added which we will
detail when the updates are near ready for release but after this
release for both games, development will be winding down and further
OOB changes will be from the MOD's forum only.

Don
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