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Old January 16th, 2010, 05:56 PM
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Default Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13

Believe it or not I've FINALLY gotten my OOB #13 (USMC) rebuild done!!!
((You may now applaud, or feint in shock.))
==============================
Now for the mandatory disclaimers.
==============================
THIS IS A CUSTOM (Player created) OOB AND IN NO WAY SUPPORTED BY SHRAPNEL GAMES !

This OOB will not - WILL NOT - work with the WinSPMBT picklists.
For those of you that are not technophiles, that means the game AI will not be able to buy forces if this OOB is installed. I was unable to utilize the existing game formations and built new ones from scratch. I think (hope) I avoided moving a few mandatory formation number formations so picklists can eventually be created for this OOB.
You can however manually purchase units/formations as normal.

This OOB should be compatible with any official WinSPMBT scenario/campaign.
It will probably work with any player created scenarios as well - no guarantee.
==============================
For those that are interested here's some explanation of what I did to the OOB and why.
==============================
First why.
The current OOB in WinSPMBT does a pretty darn good job of presenting the administrative organization of the U.S. Marine Corps. It requires the use of the game editor to create the actual combat organization of the USMC.
Unlike most of the worlds military forces the USMC is organized as building blocks.
The USMC always (99% of the time) task organizes combat units based on mission and opposition.
Each Rifle Company has a Weapons Platoon with light mortars, light anti-tank weapons, and medium machineguns. This organization that makes training, maintenance, and administration easier and presumably more efficient. This Weapons Platoon would never, under any but the most unusual circumstances be committed to combat.
Instead the light mortars are generally retained under central control by the company commander and used to support the companies Rifle Platoons as needed.
The light anti-tank weapons (bazookas, SMAWS) are attached to the Rifle Platoon (usually 2 teams each). Sometimes a given platoon will have three, or one, teams if the position they hold or their mission requires more, or less, anti-tank support.
The medium machineguns are attached to the Rifle Platoons the same way.
This company level cross-attachment is generally reflected in the current game OOB.
However - each Infantry Battalion has a Weapons Company with medium mortars, ATGM's, heavy machineguns/AGLs, and snipers. These are also attached, in ones, twos, whatevers, to the Rifle Companies as needed (with the mortars usually retained under central control by the battalion).
In the current OOB you can sometimes purchase these units in ones and twos and cross attach them, however in some cases you can only purchase whole platoons or sections. This means you either do without some weapons or wind up with far more then you should have.
==============================
In my OOB revision you'll find several alternate formations formations for the basic building block of the USMC - the Rifle Company.
Rifle Co(-) : Bare bones with zero weapons attachments.
Rifle Company : Includes all standard attachments NOT including forward observers and MPADs.
The MMGs are combined with the Platoon HQ into a two-gun "Marine Spt Sec".
Rifle Co(+) : This is the real combat organization of the USMC. With a forward observer, MPAD, Platoon HQ, MMGs in separate teams, and designated marksmen (since 2001).
Rifle Co [M] : Motorized Rifle Company (trucks).
Rifle Co(+)[M] : Motorized, fully cross-attached, Rifle Company (trucks).
Mech Rifle Co : Mechanized Rifle Company (LVTs).
Mech Rifle Co+ : Mechanized, fully-cross-attached, Rifle Company (LVTs).
Rifle Co [H] : Heliborne, fully cross-attached, Rifle Company (normally one company per battalion is air mobile).
SOC Rifle Co : Special Operations Capable Rifle Company (less AT weapons, more marksmen/snipers, mounted in Cougar MRAPs).
CJTF Rifle Co : Similar to the SOC Rifle Co with one SOC Rifle Plt replaced with a Mech Rifle Plt (normal AT weapons, less marksmen/snipers).
Rifle Plt (FT) : Fully cross-attached Rifle Platoon with the Rifle Squads broken down into Fire Teams.
Rifle Co (+Spt) : Fully cross-attached Rifle Company with it's "share" of higher headquarters attachments.
Normally the USMC creates its independent combat units at Battalion level, this is the sort of unit that was deployed as independent companies at fire bases in Vietnam.

In a few (OK, more then a few) cases I ran into the ten sub-unit limit in the WinSPMBT editor and did the best I could with compromises.

All you need to add is battalion mortars (81s), artillery, armor, scout and attack helos, and air support and you have combat organized USMC formations. I won't get into how much of each of these is "normal" here.
==============================
In the OOB you'll find some special characters used in some of the unit names.
<<"M41A1 Bulldog">> : The M41A1 Bulldog (and any other unit with its name in those symbols)was never used by the USMC, or was not used in the 1946-2020 time period (example: the LVT(A)1).
AC-47D*Puff : U.S. Air Force aircraft/helo that may occasionally support USMC operations (look for the *), these units are also usually set to availability code "3".
Most U.S. Navy aircraft are set with an availability code of "1". The Navy tends to support USMC operations more frequently then the USAF.
==============================
Many units and weapons have been renamed to their "correct" USMC, USN, and/or pre 1962 names.

Many availability dates have been altered to reflect the actual use by the USMC.
I did NOT include use by the USMC Reserve in the availability dates. First, the Reserve is only about 25% of the USMCs total strength. Second, with very few exceptions the small arms used by the Reserve at exactly the same as used by Active forces. Third, if you want to use Reserve aircraft, armor, etc. just alter the purchase date back one generation (i.e. in 1994 all Active USMC forces were using M1A1 tanks, the the Reserve still had M60s, so if you want Reserve armor buy it from the reset your scenario date to 1992).
==============================
Many. many people will no doubt have strokes over some of the alterations I made in "Weapons".

In many cases these were simple, name changes, or altering data on weapon #18 from M249 (2) SAW to M249 (3) SAW since Marine Rifle Squads carry three not two M249s.

Probably the alterations that will raise the most eyebrows are those I made to multiple weapon weapon slot data and infantry explosives (hand grenades). I increased the "Acc" ratings but decreased the "HE Kill" one.
So, in theory, if you're firing three M249s as opposed to one you'll hit more frequently but no harder. Hand Grenades are far more likely to hit, but don't blow entire squads away. Etc.
I assure you, these are not arbitrary changes, each has a good (from my point of view) reason for it. I have not found the game results playing with them unreasonable. I find they add the "proper Marine flavor" to battles!
==============================
I won't go into the "why" I made the changes I've made here.
I KNOW there are mistakes (and probably mistaken judgment) in this, I'll be happy to hear from anyone that spots one and points it out.
Comments like "You're wrong!" will be generally ignored.
Comments like "You're wrong because..." will be happily discussed.
Attached Files
File Type: zip obat013.zip (31.2 KB, 317 views)
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Last edited by Suhiir; January 16th, 2010 at 06:39 PM..
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Old January 16th, 2010, 06:22 PM
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Default Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13

Andy, Don...

For your purposes the revised unit/weapon names and availability dates are correct and accurate (as best I can find info on them).

In theory the units marked "<name>" could be removed from the OOB as these never were in the USMC TO&E (at least between 1946-2020). I realize you may not be able/want to remove such things as the Vulcan AA systems as the USMC has no AA gun system and the picklists need something to buy!
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Old January 16th, 2010, 08:16 PM
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Default Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13

I tried to find the most appropriate Icon and settled on this






Don
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Old January 16th, 2010, 10:36 PM
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Default Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13

Quote:
I tried to find the most appropriate Icon and settled on this
Good call

Suhiir just so I am clear units marked "name" are errors from the old OOB.
They do not represent equipment the USMC likes to borrow from the Army.
Tried 3 times to get the chevrons arrows whatever to show
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Old January 17th, 2010, 12:27 PM
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Default Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13

All formations 825 - 836 only exist in 2014

Looks like a WIP as they are hidden on page 6

Don
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Old January 17th, 2010, 03:17 PM
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Default Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG View Post
I tried to find the most appropriate Icon and settled on this






Don
Now of course comes the BIG question.
Will any of this be of any real use to you guys

Thanks for making me a sticky BTW, make me feel important!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG View Post
All formations 825 - 836 only exist in 2014

Looks like a WIP as they are hidden on page 6

Don
Yup, those are some of my "working copy" formations.
You'll find several formations hidden on page 6, these are sub-formations or TO&E formations I used to create the formations players can purchase (i.e. the various scout/sniper - STA platoon TO's from over the years).
I could, perhaps should, have removed them but since they're invisible to the player I just left them in.
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Old January 17th, 2010, 03:33 PM
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Default Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imp View Post
Quote:
I tried to find the most appropriate Icon and settled on this
Good call

Suhiir just so I am clear units marked <<'name'>> are errors from the old OOB.
They do not represent equipment the USMC likes to borrow from the Army.
Tried 3 times to get the chevrons arrows whatever to show
Not so much "errors" as stuff the USMC has never had in it's own inventory/TO&E (or had in very limited numbers, example the five (5) M551 Sheridan tanks they owned for testing).

In some cases (example Vulcan AA weapons) I'm sure they were included because the USMC has no AA guns (other then twin 50cals). Once MPADs became available it was decided they no longer needed AA guns. In my OOB I've added the Mk 93 twin 50's with MPADs as "AA Guns" but for the current game picklists to work an OOB needs to have some sort of AA gun so I'm sure they were left in the OOB for that reason.

As to borrowing equipment from the US Army, yes the USMC can and does occasionally do so. But not on a regular basis, and usually ONLY during combined operations (i.e. the Gulf Wars). The US Army doesn't like to loan out their toys. If you want to borrow Army equipment select "allied" and buy stuff from the US Army OOB. I tried to make the USMC OOB "pure" Marine (and US Navy) toys. I considered also dumping the US Air Force aircraft/helos but it wasn't practical.

P.S. I fixed your chevrons.
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Old January 17th, 2010, 05:36 PM
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Default Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suhiir View Post

Will any of this be of any real use to you guys
Yep, already has. I had already started tearing things out and making changes based on some of the other posts and this just makes it easier but I am really snowed under with work this time around so IDK how much "good" it's going to end up being right now. I found a simple note to check the load weight for SP sams in the game and found a good solid half days work sorting that mess out and "the list" is still 50 pages long. Basically, what's done by the First of March is what gets done this time around.

Don
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Old January 18th, 2010, 11:30 AM

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Default Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13

I had a look at this and it seems like you gave the USMC OOB some much needed love. I wouldn't be myself if I didn't have some questions however. You have access to different and likely better sources than I do, so I'm just curious as to where some of the information came from for my own reference.

- There are 3 UH-1Hs in the OOB (Units 324, 880, and 944). I wasn't aware that the USMC ever used UH-1Hs. I'd be interested to learn more about this.

- A number of helicopters (units 172 and 320 for instance), has a GAU-19/A as its armament. I wasn't aware that any US service was actually using this weapon. Again, I'd be interested to learn more about this.

- Do you have sources for Units 629 or 630 readily available? According to the official USMC history of helicopters in the Corps, plus additional documents I have, I am unfamiliar with the fitting of weapons to HTLs. Also, according to the official history, HMX-1 test fired some rockets from an HRS type helicopter in 1951 and found it to be wanting, discontinuing any further tests.

- Weapon 174 is an "M23" machine gun. I'm unfamiliar with this designation. It appears that it might be a conflation of the M23 armament subsystem designation for door guns on UH-1 types. This system used an M60 machine gun.

Again, the OOB looks very well thought out and put together. The effort you put in is clear and thanks for sharing it with us.
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Old January 19th, 2010, 12:41 PM
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Default Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13

UH-1H
They initially got the UH-1B/C/E model, but since less then 200 of that model were built they also used a lot of the more numerous UH-1H (long fuselage, upgraded engine) versions as well (over 5000 built). Also after the introduction of the UH-1M the USMC upgraded all their UH-1E to the new engine, making them basically UH-1Hs. Rather then include three different models of the UH-1E I went for simplicity and called them UH-1Hs, which is essentially what they were.

GAU-19 50cal gattling
In an on-again/off-again discussion they've been talking of mounting a chin turret with the GAU-19 on the MV-22 Osprey. So they have some GAU-19s (they got about 100 of them in 2007).
Since they haven't gotten around to putting the chin turrets on the MV-22s they're occasionally used as a replacement for the M134 7.62mm minigun on UH-1's. So I stuck them on my "Light Attack Helicopter (Unit Class 221) variant which I've set up to be mainly "soft vehicle"/"crewed weapon" killer helo (the 50cal vs the 7.62mm, less HE and more AP rockets).

HTL Gunship (Unit 629)
(A.K.A. YR-13 / H-13 / OH-13 Sioux)
This was a field mod commonly made to observation helos during Korea. Some pilots also carried hand grenades to drop as "bombs". This was never an "official" modification but was very, very common.
The US Army formalized this with the "XM1 armament subsystem" http://tri.army.mil/LC/CS/csa/xm1m37c.gif

HRS Gunship (Unit 630)
(A.K.A. Sikorsky S-55 "Chickasaw" / H-19 / HO4S)
These were another common field modification (they were the predecessor to the H-34 Stingers).
You mentioned the tests in 1951, yes, officially the tests were discontinued.

Weapon #174 M23 Machinegun
Yup, exactly right ! I didn't want to use the standard MMGs for helo doorguns because of their range.

*********************
This is probably a good time to explain the "why" of one of my weapons modifications.
You'll find that "fixed mount" (i.e. tripod, CMG, etc.) type MGs have a 20% greater range then "flex mount" (i.e. bipod, pintel, etc.) mounts. Also the "fixed mount" types are not AAMG capable.
Example :
Weapon #14 M60 7.62mm LMG (WC 2, Acc 21, Rng 16)
Weapon #36 M60 7.62mm MMG (WC 3, Acc 20, Rng 30)
Weapon #52 M60 7.62mm AAMG (WC 4, Acc 20, Rng 24)
Weapon #64 M60 7.62mm CMG (WC 5, Acc 20, Rng 30)
Weapon #174 M23 7.62mm MG (WC 3, Acc 20, Rng 24)
Yup, it's a LOT of variations on a simple 7.62mm MG, but each has different capabilities and applications, and, the USMC OOB had the extra space in the weapons tab to allow all these variations!
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Last edited by Suhiir; January 19th, 2010 at 01:07 PM..
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