.com.unity Forums
  The Official e-Store of Shrapnel Games

This Month's Specials

Salvo! - Save $5.00
World Supremacy - Save $5.00

   







Go Back   .com.unity Forums > The Camo Workshop > WinSPWW2 > After Action Reports
Notices


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old October 14th, 2017, 07:24 PM
Mobhack's Avatar

Mobhack Mobhack is offline
General
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dundee
Posts: 4,949
Thanks: 17
Thanked 1,002 Times in 707 Posts
Mobhack is on a distinguished road
Default Re: The Curse of the Delay

If you think the advance is too easy - then use the "view map" function to reshape the battlefield to make it more difficult for yourself. In particular - you can reduce the battle length, manually move victory hexes to the AIs advantage and so on - for example you might increase visibility if the defender is say German, and so he can make use of his generally better long ranged tank and AT guns. Or you could give him more points by say buying a load of trucks that you sit on your table edge. And as far as I recollect, you can change map size at this point as well - attacking on a narrower frontage gives the AI defender a higher ratio of defenders per yard.

But reducing the time is by far the easiest way to make things more difficult since you will have to press on, rather than having the luxury of time to methodically take his defence apart.

So - you have the ability to make it more of a challenge with a few minutes work.
The Following User Says Thank You to Mobhack For This Useful Post:
  #22  
Old October 14th, 2017, 11:18 PM

jivemi jivemi is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Philippines
Posts: 349
Thanks: 215
Thanked 75 Times in 63 Posts
jivemi is on a distinguished road
Default Re: The Curse of the Delay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravindau View Post

What I was trying to show is that Advance/Delay as it stands is not balanced between two players of equal skill. This is not subjective.

To repeat the decisive empirical question: Would you want to be the defending side in a generated Advance/Delay battle in a tournament?
Actually all you've done is show that you're better than the AI (unless you're suggesting that you and the AI are of equal skill, which seems improbable). So are most experienced players. That at least is not subjective!

As for anyone being interested to play as the delayer in a generated battle, why not challenge somebody to PBEM and see? The SP community awaits with bated breath the outcome of this epic struggle to "prove" or "disprove" that advance/delay battles are imbalanced in favor of the attacker. (My personal experience in SPMBT generated campaigns has been exactly the opposite, but never mind.)

Last edited by jivemi; October 14th, 2017 at 11:34 PM..
The Following User Says Thank You to jivemi For This Useful Post:
  #23  
Old October 16th, 2017, 06:14 PM

Ravindau Ravindau is offline
Private
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 37
Thanks: 2
Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts
Ravindau is on a distinguished road
Post Re: The Curse of the Delay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobhack View Post
If you think the advance is too easy - then use the "view map" function to reshape the battlefield to make it more difficult for yourself. In particular - you can reduce the battle length, manually move victory hexes to the AIs advantage and so on - for example you might increase visibility if the defender is say German, and so he can make use of his generally better long ranged tank and AT guns. Or you could give him more points by say buying a load of trucks that you sit on your table edge. And as far as I recollect, you can change map size at this point as well - attacking on a narrower frontage gives the AI defender a higher ratio of defenders per yard.

But reducing the time is by far the easiest way to make things more difficult since you will have to press on, rather than having the luxury of time to methodically take his defence apart.

So - you have the ability to make it more of a challenge with a few minutes work.
Yes, this is a viable workaround for the Campaign, I agree!

Still, did you recently do any tests AI vs. AI, say Advance 1.000 pts vs. XXX, for typical WW2 actions like Alamein, Stalingrad, Sicily, Normandy?

I am tempted to bet the farm that 90% of such test runs will result in the advancing AI shreddering the delaying AI.

And if some people in this thread call such test results "subjective", I don´t know what their concept of "objective" is.
  #24  
Old October 16th, 2017, 06:46 PM

Ravindau Ravindau is offline
Private
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 37
Thanks: 2
Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts
Ravindau is on a distinguished road
Talking Re: The Curse of the Delay

Quote:
Originally Posted by jivemi View Post
As for anyone being interested to play as the delayer in a generated battle, why not challenge somebody to PBEM and see? The SP community awaits with bated breath the outcome of this epic struggle to "prove" or "disprove" that advance/delay battles are imbalanced in favor of the attacker. (My personal experience in SPMBT generated campaigns has been exactly the opposite, but never mind.)
You are a brave man!

Only reason I didn´t propose a PBEM Advance/Delay with standard settings is because I thought no one would volunteer for that suicide mission.

So let´s say October 1942, Stalingrad. Doesn´t get more prototypically WW2.

German Advance vs. Russian Delay or Russian Advance vs. German Delay, 1.000pts vs. XXX. Your choice if you want to delay as Germany or Russia.

Any special house rules you want? My only ones are these:
1. No Allies; only native troops of your OOB.
2. 2 Sharpshooters maximum (2 individuals or a team of 2). (They are super specialists, more of them in a small action is ridiculous.)

Is a map 20 wide, 40 deep ok? I would suggest 30 turns, which is a bit LESS than you usually get from the RMG.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	VOLUNTEER.jpg
Views:	12
Size:	42.7 KB
ID:	14965  
  #25  
Old October 16th, 2017, 11:44 PM

jivemi jivemi is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Philippines
Posts: 349
Thanks: 215
Thanked 75 Times in 63 Posts
jivemi is on a distinguished road
Default Re: The Curse of the Delay

Love to take you up on it but unfortunately I'm too digitally incompetent for PBEM. Tried it a couple times at a European site (worldatwar.eu was it?) some years ago but kept sending my opponents back their own saved game, dunno why. The old noodle ain't gotten any sharper in the interim. So perhaps another brave soul could meet your challenge.

Yeah, I know, excuses, excuses. You called my bluff and I couldn't meet it. At any rate your enthusiasm for this game is noted. Just wish you wouldn't badger us so much about your pet peeves. Good luck and happy gaming!

Last edited by jivemi; October 17th, 2017 at 12:21 AM..
  #26  
Old October 21st, 2017, 12:40 AM
DRG's Avatar

DRG DRG is offline
National Security Advisor
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: GWN
Posts: 8,721
Thanks: 1,343
Thanked 1,991 Times in 1,047 Posts
DRG is on a distinguished road
Default Re: The Curse of the Delay

702 German P1 points..delay vs 1440 P2 ( AI ) Russian Points..advance. Map is 30x40. I used what the game generated.....6 visibility and 23 turns

Save 50 is the first turn and save 51 was just after I started my counter attack on turn 17 or so

End result





Fun game... kept me on my toes the whole time

Don
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DV2.jpg
Views:	63
Size:	45.8 KB
ID:	14984   Click image for larger version

Name:	BR.png
Views:	60
Size:	3.6 KB
ID:	14986  
Attached Files
File Type: rar WINSPWW2_Saved Games50-51.rar (89.9 KB, 9 views)
__________________

Last edited by DRG; October 21st, 2017 at 12:47 AM..
The Following User Says Thank You to DRG For This Useful Post:
  #27  
Old October 21st, 2017, 09:30 AM

jivemi jivemi is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Philippines
Posts: 349
Thanks: 215
Thanked 75 Times in 63 Posts
jivemi is on a distinguished road
Default Re: The Curse of the Delay

Good on yer Don. Using Stugs on the defense--and no artillery? That's so unfair; you're supposed to play like this is WWI! And on a broader frontage--whoda thunkit?

Unfortunately this will probably not settle the issue for our objective interlocutor since you're simply too experienced. Around and around the mulberry bush we shall go...
  #28  
Old October 21st, 2017, 11:30 AM
DRG's Avatar

DRG DRG is offline
National Security Advisor
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: GWN
Posts: 8,721
Thanks: 1,343
Thanked 1,991 Times in 1,047 Posts
DRG is on a distinguished road
Exclamation Re: The Curse of the Delay

admittedly I did deviate a bit ( but not much ) from the narrow criteria to "prove how unbalanced delays are"...

Though I suspect few player even use that low number of points. Two coys of infantry and 2 Stugs isn't excessive on a 1500m frontage. The Russian AI made a serious attempt to take that mid map road junction and it was touch and go for the first 10 turns.

I may turn it into a scenario if anyone wants to playtest save 50 be my guest...
__________________

Last edited by DRG; October 21st, 2017 at 12:26 PM..
  #29  
Old October 22nd, 2017, 03:29 AM

jivemi jivemi is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Philippines
Posts: 349
Thanks: 215
Thanked 75 Times in 63 Posts
jivemi is on a distinguished road
Default Re: The Curse of the Delay

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG View Post
admittedly I did deviate a bit ( but not much ) from the narrow criteria to "prove how unbalanced delays are"...
Yeah, since his original theory is that SPWW2 is more like WWI, maybe you shouldn't have allowed the AI any tanks. Anyway using your same parameters (map and points) I bought one and two-thirds infantry coys, a mortar section and two StuGs for the Germans; 3 82mm mortar batteries, one 120mm mortar battery (coming close to 30% force value), and the rest infantry (four companies IIRC) for the Russians. The randomly generated map was much like yours, densely forested, and I reduced visibility to 6, leaving the turns at 27.

It was all over after 20 turns. Score was Germans 2964, Sovs 81. Didn't score many kills but about half the enemy fled in terror. Here are 3 saves (from setup, turn 7 and 20); hope there's no problems with winzip or whatever (they came from slots 10-12; not sure how to change them):
Attached Files
File Type: zip Saved Games.zip (206.7 KB, 11 views)
The Following User Says Thank You to jivemi For This Useful Post:
  #30  
Old October 22nd, 2017, 05:39 PM

Ravindau Ravindau is offline
Private
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 37
Thanks: 2
Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts
Ravindau is on a distinguished road
Arrow Re: The Curse of the Delay

Quote:
Originally Posted by jivemi View Post
Yeah, since his original theory is that SPWW2 is more like WWI,...
This is certainly not my opinion. When would I ever say such nonsense?

If anything, SPWW2 is *a bit* too much inspired by modern warfare theories. Defensive resources in WW2 were enormous and are usually underrated. Blitzkrieg is overrated and was actually never successful without the element of surprise, that is: all successful Blitzkrieg offensives presupposed inadequately prepared defenders and/or great strategic blunders.
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2017, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.