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  #11  
Old October 19th, 2017, 01:07 AM
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Default Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range

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Originally Posted by Gerry1 View Post

I was trying to set up a few such units in a Battle and I couldn't find a SMG company or Platoon. Did I miss them or is it just a case of they were just a part of a Rifle platoon for example?

I did find Scouts that has the PPShs.

Thanks.
Yes, scouts are one of them.
Try Guards units too. Or simply select any unit you like, and on the left hand side (of the purchase-screen), you can choose different weapon's composition for that unit. Here for example, for the same "Guards Section" unit, you can have four different flavors (unit's ability & weapon compositions):


Also try different date/year.
Make sure the visibility is also enough/greater than the maximum firing range.

Now, since you're experimenting with the range of the PPSh only, you must disable the other firearms for that unit (by left clicking on the firearm from the unit info screen i.e when you right click that unit on the battlefield; so now the firearm is listed blue/gray instead of yellow colored).

Last edited by RightDeve; October 19th, 2017 at 01:15 AM..
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  #12  
Old October 19th, 2017, 05:20 AM

Griefbringer Griefbringer is offline
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Default Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range

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Originally Posted by Gerry1 View Post

I was trying to set up a few such units in a Battle and I couldn't find a SMG company or Platoon. Did I miss them or is it just a case of they were just a part of a Rifle platoon for example?
What year was this? There are SMG companies and platoons in the Soviet OOB, but they only become available around 1942 or so (you can check the exact dates from Mobhack).

Historically, the pre-war Soviet doctrine did not consider SMG as a proper military weapon, and there were just a few thousand such weapons in the whole country. However, by the time Winter War was over the leadership had changed their mind, and Soviet industry started to design and produce SMGs - and as war progressed they were issued to infantry units in ever larger numbers.
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  #13  
Old October 19th, 2017, 05:17 PM
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Default Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range

No need to test really some troops have SMG as an additional weapon so slot 3 or 4 some have as main weapon.
SMG are more effective close up but cannot fire above there max range normally 3.
If they do not have a longer range weapon such as a LMG they are close range fighters only.
Rifle is more flexible not quite as hard hitting close up but can engage at greater range.
Carbines are again short ranged normally 5 hexes but with no close up be benefit.
Other weapons like flame throwers, demo charges shotguns are only effective in the same or adjacent hex.

Riflemen are your all rounders the others are really assault troops pack a bit more punch in close area fighting like woods & towns.
Stats you are intreasted in to understand small arms in WWII
Range max range the weapon can fire, accuracy falls off as range increases.
Accuracy higher more chance to hit, rifle 1 smg 2 or 3
HE kill higher it is the more damage is likely to be caused if you hit.
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  #14  
Old October 19th, 2017, 06:15 PM
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Default Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range

And comparing an SMG in weapon slot 2+ against the rifles in slot 1 is also superfluous.

As mentioned in the mobhack help somewhere - infantry prime weapons (rifle smg) in slot 1 are multiplied by number of firers (section size in other words) and this reduces as range does. Infantry prime weapons in slots >1 dont get multiplied. So if you want to compare a section with SMG against a same sized one with rifles - ensure your test items have them in slot 1 and have the same crew size.

As to the ranges - these are what was determined as maximum effective ranges by SSI back in the day. SMG 2-3 hexes, full-fat rifles at 10, assault rifle and carbines usually 8. LMG of the same calibre usually have a 2 hex advantage. The ranges are for game purposes, and have zero relation to how far a bullet might theoretically kill if it hit - a .22 rim-fire is able to kill at a mile, but the chance of a hit is negligible.
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  #15  
Old October 19th, 2017, 08:48 PM
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Default Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range

Heck, he's curious about Rifle & SMG ranges so let him test it, there's nothing wrong with that (if anything we should thank him for experimenting, probably he'll find some bugs or errors). And as we all know, weapon ranges are not affected by how many men, morale, experience, weapon slot etc in a unit.

When talking purely about "ranges" in SP, it's only about fire or no fire. Anything beyond the weapon's set ranges (as stated in the info screen), and it won't fire.

But when talking about "effectiveness" (define "effectiveness"?), as already said, it's very subjective, and has loads of variables influencing it.
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  #16  
Old October 20th, 2017, 01:07 AM

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Default Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range

Quote:
Originally Posted by RightDeve View Post
Yes, scouts are one of them.
Try Guards units too. Or simply select any unit you like, and on the left hand side (of the purchase-screen), you can choose different weapon's composition for that unit. Here for example, for the same "Guards Section" unit, you can have four different flavors (unit's ability & weapon compositions):


Also try different date/year.
Make sure the visibility is also enough/greater than the maximum firing range.

Now, since you're experimenting with the range of the PPSh only, you must disable the other firearms for that unit (by left clicking on the firearm from the unit info screen i.e when you right click that unit on the battlefield; so now the firearm is listed blue/gray instead of yellow colored).
Thanks but I couldn't see the googleuser content for some reason. I assume you meant the screen I have attached?

I see the PPSh on there and some of the variations have the PPS. Would each of the 10 men have the smg? In one case there is a LMG so how many out of the 10 would man that?

It's very interesting to me - I am not questioning the OOB in any way. The variations for the SMG Platoon seem to differ on type of smg in this case and also in terms of grenades, AT stuff etc.
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  #17  
Old October 20th, 2017, 01:11 AM

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Default Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range

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Originally Posted by Griefbringer View Post
What year was this? There are SMG companies and platoons in the Soviet OOB, but they only become available around 1942 or so (you can check the exact dates from Mobhack).

Historically, the pre-war Soviet doctrine did not consider SMG as a proper military weapon, and there were just a few thousand such weapons in the whole country. However, by the time Winter War was over the leadership had changed their mind, and Soviet industry started to design and produce SMGs - and as war progressed they were issued to infantry units in ever larger numbers.
Thanks for the history. I have tried many WW II tactical games and I know some of the history and weapons but nothing like the knowledge of people on here.

I changed the year from '39 to '44 and found the SMG Platoon.
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  #18  
Old October 20th, 2017, 04:16 AM
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Default Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry1 View Post

Thanks but I couldn't see the googleuser content for some reason. I assume you meant the screen I have attached?

I see the PPSh on there and some of the variations have the PPS. Would each of the 10 men have the smg? In one case there is a LMG so how many out of the 10 would man that?

It's very interesting to me - I am not questioning the OOB in any way. The variations for the SMG Platoon seem to differ on type of smg in this case and also in terms of grenades, AT stuff etc.

Yes, the same as your attached screenshot.

In abstract terms, yes, each of those 10 men have SMG so long as its weapon slot #1. But inside the game it doesn't translate into anything specifically ten (you won't see 10 individual bursts or tracers). Keep in mind though, if the unit takes more casualties (thus reduced men), then the number of shots per turn is also reduced (the number on the bottom screen that says something like 6:4:3:1 now says 3:2:1:0) etc.

Aside from the "completeness" of the unit (how many men), Number of shots are also affected by whether you have moved/expended movement points, whether you're suppressed/pinned, the amount of experience, etc etc. It's all interlocked & affecting, these myriad variables. But regarding weapon range, it all comes down to two things only: within range, or, out of range.

As you can see on the unit's Number of Shot, the LMG has less shot per turn compared to the SMG, because LMG is not on weapon slot #1, thus presumably not all men have the LMG.

It's okay to question the OOB, but make sure you have good quality source to back it up, otherwise you'll get smashed. I'm not a fan of dabbling with OOB either, mostly about gameplay & mechanics, and maps.

Yes, lots of flavors for a single unit. This game is very flexible.

Last edited by RightDeve; October 20th, 2017 at 04:24 AM..
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  #19  
Old October 25th, 2017, 04:15 AM

Griefbringer Griefbringer is offline
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Default Re: Rifle/SMG Effective Range

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry1 View Post
I see the PPSh on there and some of the variations have the PPS. Would each of the 10 men have the smg? In one case there is a LMG so how many out of the 10 would man that?
Regarding the presence (or not) of the DP LMG, historically there were two types of SMG platoons in the Red Army: those that were fully armed with SMGs, and those that also had an LMG in every squad. And different close range anti-tank weapons were introduced as war progressed.

As for the issue of "how many guns a weapon slot entry represents", the rule of thumb is that one slot equals one weapon. The following exceptions apply:

1.) The weapon name or description mentions that it represents multiple guns. Examples include German panzergrenadiers with 2 MGs in single slot, US rifle squads with 2 or 3 BARs in single slot and various multi-barrel AA-weapons. In these cases the effect of multiple guns is represented in game terms with increased HE kill value.

2.) The weapon is infantry personal small arm (rifle, carbine, SMG etc.) present in weapon slot 1 of an infantry unit. In this case the entry means that every man in the unit is treated as being armed with the weapon in question, and the effect of the weapon is multiplied by up to the number of men left in the unit.

3.) Multiple rocket launchers: in this case a single weapon entry represents a number of launch tubes/rails.

4.) Certain aircraft armaments, which use the AP ammo slot to designate the number of guns of certain type present.


When a slot represents munitions that can be used on their own (hand grenades, satchel charges, panzerfausts etc.) without a need for an external launcher, they are still treated as one weapon per entry for the game purposes.
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