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Old October 20th, 2017, 11:02 PM
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Default Bradley formations

This is more an FYI than a topic of conversation/discussion/debate


For years.....at least a decade and a half anyway the game Bradleys have had a crew of 3 and carried 6 infantry and I have accepted that as gospel as that's the way it was set up when I "inherited" maintenance of the OOB.....and ( most importantly ) *I* rarely play the game as the US ( yes..I know........shock and horror all around.... )

Working through my OOB to-do work notes I found a comment that questioned the number of Javelins assigned to a particular mech unit........that spun off into a further investigation of the Bradley formations as that was mentioned in the notes along with the Stryker formations.

What I discovered surprised me.... I have two sources....one very good and one very VERY good that confirms there were too many Javelins assigned ( there should be three per platoon ) but also that each platoon has 4 BFV ( that is not in dispute )...and each platoon contains three 9 man squads ( further broken down into 2 fire teams each with one fireteam leader but that is not relevant.

Each BFV has a crew of three except the lead vehicle that has 4

Quote:
"Three, nine-man rifle squads make up the platoon’s dismounted element

A Bradley Crew
The crew of a Bradley normally consists of three Infantrymen. These are the driver, the gunner, and the Bradley Commander (BC). In the instance of the platoon leader’s vehicle, there are four. This is in case the Platoon Leader dismounts the vehicle to maneuver with the dismounted element. This allows the Bradley to continue to be crewed by 3 Infantrymen.
the math is 3x9 = 27+3+3+3+4 = 40

40 / 4 = 10 men total per vehicle so with a crew of 3 that means there are 7 men carried NOT 6 and what baffles me is that has not been questioned in all this time

Sources

http://www.benning.army.mil/infantry...ent/ATP3-21.8/

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/tacti...ry-platoon.htm

so they are now set up with 7 passengers and I managed to find a way to
set up the javelins so they are the correct number per platoon ( 3 ) and each platoon now has the correct number of men instead of being 4 men short

fun........
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  #2  
Old October 21st, 2017, 02:34 AM
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Fallout Re: Bradley formations

Fun!?! So that's what you've having these few weeks than I also suppose. But thanks! It amazing how one thing can lead to another.

If you have any other questions concerning the BRADLEY that's been lingering in the back of your mind let me know here or off line, I work with men and women that represent every branch of our military, to include a BRADLEY driver of 8yrs. in Iraq combat operations and S. Korea.

Kind've like the help I received in the changes we made to the LAV-AD a few years ago from Gunny "Sir Charles". We just called him the motivator when he worked with us.

Regards,
Pat
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Old October 21st, 2017, 10:45 AM
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Default Re: Bradley formations

Could you ask the Bradley drive about the typical TO&E of the dismounts?

I'm REALLY curious:
1) How many are carried per vehicle.
2) How many M240s per platoon.
3) How many Javelin ATGMs per platoon.
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Old October 21st, 2017, 11:16 AM
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Default Re: Bradley formations

Add it up yourself. This is from Fort Benning

http://www.benning.army.mil/infantry...ent/ATP3-21.8/



both Benning and armchair general give the same data...27 infantry + 12 crewmen + one platoon commander ....that adds up to 40 in four vehicles. When everyone but the crews are dismounted there are 3 men per vehicle......therefore there are 7 spaces per vehicle for the dismount troopers
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Old October 21st, 2017, 06:28 PM
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Default Re: Bradley formations

Don,t play as often but an extra man per squad will make them useful as more than just eyes.
4 x 5 man squad, 3 x ATGM 1x LMG or AT team would work or change one squad to 7 men & ignore team.
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Old October 22nd, 2017, 04:55 AM
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Fallout Re: Bradley formations

I'm setting the stage if you will, you can treat this information how you will. We will call him "Jake" he served in the USA from 1994-2004 with the first six years as a BRADLEY 1A2 Driver/Gunner (Though he's been around other types as well from the "Schoolhouse" to the field.) mostly in Korea last four as a USA Air Traffic Controller (ATC) in Iraq.

This is a "neutral" post independent of any current posts or past ones, no cross checking has been done with any refs or from OOB's. I trust JAKE with my life literally on the job when posted together and he knows I've got his back as well. I have worked with him for 13 years now. I trust him.

This based on our conversation before and after work Sat. You get a sense of the Q&A from the following...

Personnel: BRADLEY has five seats/2 on each side opposing each other/1 for the Squad Leader I believe he said starboard side forward. Normal 3 Crew standard/5 dismounts (One Army Squad) standard.

Ten total is the Max. but, he's never seen it. Has seen six dismounts but that's mission dependent and not the norm. It gets cramped at that point and squeezing 10 total they'll lose their reload capability for the TOW Launcher.

ALSO the dismounts are the TOW loaders while onboard. The gunner only does it when not carrying dismounts.

TOW: When asked directly how many they carry "I can't tell you and even if I could I wouldn't." that would be about my response to certain aspects of my Submarine Career been married just over 31 yrs. now and there are things CINCLANTHOME doesn't know and probably never will. She never asks and respects that as much as I expected "Jake" to give the answer he did, and l likewise respected it.

Are you up for a number game?
How about 8 TOW's? After some thought...That's a good number. I believe it's somewhere closer to 10 or 12.

Reload is done in the area above the Squad Leader's seat. There's a hatch that comes up behind the turret to reload the missiles. The turret elevation is raised so the loader can pull the spent TOW cartridges out and reload the missiles. This is the most vulnerable time for the BRADLEY in combat as with any such equipped APC etc.

Chain Gun: They originally wanted to mount the same 30mm as the APACHE uses, however it was a bit impractical most of it due to limited space needed associated with that weapon. The 25mm is dual feed, the gunner has a selector switch that allows him to chose btwn HE ammo on one side of the gun and AP rounds on the other. Magazine feed from ammo boxes mounted to the gun.

Coaxial: Was a 240B until the 240C became available.
https://fnamerica.com/products/machine-guns/fn-m240b/
https://fnamerica.com/products/machine-guns/fn-m240c/


Takeaways: When asked about is there a difference on the amount of dismounts that can be carried between a tow capable BRADLEY and a non TOW BRADLEY, the answer was "I never saw a BRADLEY that didn't carry TOW missiles and never heard of one without them."

Many years ago I believe in the APC Thread we had an issue on the number of TOW's and rounds that were carried for the 25mm, besides the refs. I could find, "Jake" was there for that as well. His answer concerning TOW's was essentially the same back then. I like consistency.

BRADLEY M2A1: These were being phased out by time "Jake" went to BRADLEY "school" however, they had one there as a training unit. There is something very unique about the M2A1 that no other BRADLEY had. Gun ports for the dismounts. Imagine if you a "ball" mounted into the hull that moved as the dismount brought his weapon to bear on a target when he inserted it into the "ball" from inside the BRADLEY. They can be secured if they're in an NBC environment.

You had two to a side/one or two (He thinks two but can't remember.) in the rear (Like the MERKAVA).

The weapon was a modified stock-less M-16, pretty much a barrel, trigger and magazine in it's simplest terms. They were already mounted and swung out into the "ball" when needed. It would be manned while in combat.

BRADLEY M2A1 NOTE: Gun Ports (2) mid/center-line of the hull in the below picture dated to 1987.
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I'm telling you what a picture(!), how about that, it even shows a TOW launcher that carries 4 TOW missiles. Oh increments of 4, and 12 all day now with 8 min. 16 I don't know-maybe!?! Oh "Jake"!?!

I guess that picture puts the Squad Leaders seat to the Port Side now as well. I probably misunderstood him as noted above on this issue.

So I've fulfilled my obligation to my Marine friend (Even after she called me a "swabbie", now how nice was that!?!).

Learned a couple of new things.

Maybe cleared some things up or made them worse.

In any case it's getting VERY late and I REALLY need to hit the rack (Someone else is getting over a cold as well, which has been the only reason I'm still alive at the moment for staying up so late again!) have a good something!!!

Regards,
Pat
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Old October 22nd, 2017, 06:50 AM
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Default Re: Bradley formations

Sound similar to the LAV-25.
Technically it can carry 3 crew + 6 passengers, but rarely carries more then 4 passengers because the 2 "extra" men mean there's no room for "little" things like backpacks, extra weapons (i.e. AT-4s), or more then a basic ammo load. Not to mention folks like to find room for another 5-gal water can or a cooler of beer.
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Old October 22nd, 2017, 11:53 AM
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Default Re: Bradley formations

No matter what I do I will be right by some sources and wrong by others...it's the nature of the "game"...... the one we play and the one I play with the OOB's and the restrictions they impose to make the one we play..... work. In many cases, the problem is RL allows weapon use and loading flexibility based on the opponent that the game simply cannot simulate exactly so there have to be compromises made. Originally that meant a Javelin was integrated into a squad and that squad was given full TI capability and if a player needed the AT capability then that squad could be used....if they didn't need the ATGM capability a different squad could be used and that as a fair compromise but reduced the flexibility that having a smaller infantry component AND an ATGM unit gave.....one player may prefer one over the other and vise versa. All I can do is try to find a middle ground. Note that the TOE that the armchair general used in those examples that mirrors the Fort Benning info was sub-labelled " in a perfect world"......
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Old October 22nd, 2017, 01:30 PM
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Fallout Re: Bradley formations

It does seem like at times after my initial education out here, that almost around every curve in the road, you come to a fork in it and the only road to compromise is not to the left or to the right, but straight through the woods.

Regards,
Pat
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Old October 22nd, 2017, 05:37 PM
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Default Re: Bradley formations

Swamps not woods.
Filled with pits and bogs impossible to navigate so you just do the best you can. And you never come out smelling good.
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