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Old October 28th, 2017, 09:41 PM
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Exclamation another project for someone

The info I found on the German Jaguar SPATGM vehicles only confuses me more.....there appear to be two naming systems and I am unclear if any version is still in service......so if anyone has any good intel I'm very interested

Don
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Old October 28th, 2017, 11:36 PM
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It appears that it was originally built as:

Raketenjagdpanzer 2 armed with SS-11 and in service 1967 to 1983ish with 370 built.

After the HOT missile was developed, they converted 316 Raketenjagdpanzer 2's to carry it (Euromissile K3S HOT) from 1978 to 1983. The converted vehicles were redesignated JAGUAR 1. Removed from Bundeswehr service by 2005.

From 1983 to 1985, some 165 Kanone Jagdpanzer (the one with 90mm gun) were converted by removal of the 90mm gun and addition of the TOW ATGM system. Additional armor was also added. These vehicles were redesignated JAGUAR 2.

In 1989, the Jaguar 2 received the TOW 2 missile system.

In 1993, the Jaguar 2 tank destroyers were phased out in favour of the Jaguar 1A3, an upgraded version of the Jaguar 1.

While it may seem bizarre that the Jaguar 1 survived, but the Jaguar 2 didn't...a small tidbit may explain why.

The Jaguar 1's HOT missile-system was fully automatic, with a gas-proof magazine drum containing eight missiles, with 12 more missiles carried inside the vehicle.

Meanwhile, the Jaguar 2 had to manually reload the TOW missile, I think. But it had I believe a thermal sight built into the TOW launcher; which could be dismounted and fired away from the vehicle. So basically Jaguar 2 was an armored tracked TOW-Humvee.

Jaguar 1A3 added a second generation TI sight; giving the Bundeswehr a fully under armor NBC protected ATGM system with genuine night fighting capability; which is why it survived and Jaguar 2 didn't.

Jane's claims:

Quote:
Hit probability against a fixed target (2.3 × 2.3 m) or moving target (2.3 × 4.6 m) is 80 per cent at ranges of up to 500 m and almost 100 per cent at ranges between 500 and 4,000 m.

...

In 1985, the HOT 2 entered production with delivery of first production missiles in 1986 after which time production of the HOT 1 ceased. HOT 2 has its warhead diameter increased from 136 mm to 150mm and the explosive charge increased from 3 kg to 4.1 kg with no actual increase in missile weight. The HOT 2 warhead will penetrate 1,300 mm of conventional steel armour.
Jane's also claims that the Jaguar 1's transferred to the Austrian Army got TI sights added and were converted to HOT 3.

Jane's also claims that the reason the Bundeswehr went with the Jaguar 2 when they had the Jaguar 1 was because TOW was much cheaper per missile in addition to the standard TOW launcher selected already having the AN/TAS-4 TI sight.

Last edited by MarkSheppard; October 28th, 2017 at 11:51 PM..
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Old October 28th, 2017, 11:54 PM
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Default Re: another project for someone

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSheppard View Post
It appears that it was originally built as:

Raketenjagdpanzer 2 armed with SS-11 and in service 1967 to 1983ish with 370 built.

After the HOT missile was developed, they converted 316 Raketenjagdpanzer 2's to carry it (Euromissile K3S HOT) from 1978 to 1983. The converted vehicles were redesignated JAGUAR 1. Removed from Bundeswehr service by 2005.

From 1983 to 1985, some 165 Kanone Jagdpanzer (the one with 90mm gun) were converted by removal of the 90mm gun and addition of the TOW ATGM system. Additional armor was also added. These vehicles were redesignated JAGUAR 2.

In 1989, the Jaguar 2 received the TOW 2 missile system.

In 1993, the Jaguar 2 tank destroyers were phased out in favour of the Jaguar 1A3, an upgraded version of the Jaguar 1.

While it may seem bizarre that the Jaguar 1 survived, but the Jaguar 2 didn't...a small tidbit may explain why.

The Jaguar 1's HOT missile-system was fully automatic, with a gas-proof magazine drum containing eight missiles, with 12 more missiles carried inside the vehicle.

Meanwhile, the Jaguar 2 had to manually reload the TOW missile, I think. But it had I believe a thermal sight built into the TOW launcher; which could be dismounted and fired away from the vehicle. So basically Jaguar 2 was an armored tracked TOW-Humvee.

Jaguar 1A3 added a second generation TI sight; giving the Bundeswehr a fully under armor NBC protected ATGM system with genuine night fighting capability; which is why it survived and Jaguar 2 didn't.
danke schön..


I *think* German Unit 77 should be OOS 12/93 and unit 76 should be renamed Jaguar 1A3 and be in-service 1/94.... ?

also looks like the Jag 2 carried fewer missiles...12 vs 20 HOT in the Jag 1's and it also looks like the ROF could stand some scrutiny considering the HOT's are autoloaded......AND the TOW needs to be W164 instead of W158

I just love OOB work .......< heavy sarcasm.......>

Don
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Last edited by DRG; October 29th, 2017 at 12:13 AM..
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Old October 29th, 2017, 03:38 AM
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Fallout Re: another project for someone

Mark has done a great job here. These more for general FYI...
First shows JAGUAR I/Raketenjagdpanzer-3 during trails with HOT. Takeaways: Carried a load-out of 20 HOT ATGW. Interesting watching the launcher and reloading ops.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSiFC4kueiQ

Next is the JAGUAR II/Raketenjagdpanzer-4 from a 1984 German Army video. I think this is the best I've seen on a TOW mounted launcher and operation. It should be pointed out that the TOW Launcher could be used independent of the vehicle and operated from the ground. Under certain conditions, it's easy to see the advantage of that option.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekUkjZ9dil0

Might be something useful here on characteristics...
http://weaponsystems.net/weaponsyste...%20Jaguar.html
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/co...gdpanzer-I.php
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/co...gdpanzer-2.php
https://www.facebook.com/tankmuseum/...235842/?type=3
http://www.wardrawings.be/Modern/Sit...PG/Jaguar2.htm


Regards,
Pat
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Old October 29th, 2017, 06:45 AM

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Default Re: another project for someone

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSheppard View Post
Jane's also claims that the Jaguar 1's transferred to the Austrian Army got TI sights added and were converted to HOT 3.
HOT 3 were purchased concurrently with HOT 2:
https://www.parlament.gv.at/PAKT/VHG...81/index.shtml

TI is tricky - I find some claims that the upgrade happened in 2005, but also that the sights were only purchased but not installed because the vehicles were already going out of service.
Only thing I can say for sure is "not before 2003."
http://www.rechnungshof.gv.at/berich...-jaguar-1.html
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Old October 29th, 2017, 11:58 AM
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Default Re: another project for someone

Which raises the question........when did they go OOS in Austria.....I saw one hint it was 2010
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Old October 29th, 2017, 12:07 PM
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Default Re: another project for someone

Quote:
Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH View Post

Next is the JAGUAR II/Raketenjagdpanzer-4 from a 1984 German Army video. I think this is the best I've seen on a TOW mounted launcher and operation. It should be pointed out that the TOW Launcher could be used independent of the vehicle and operated from the ground. Under certain conditions, it's easy to see the advantage of that option.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekUkjZ9dil0
After watching the way the Jag 1's reloaded the HOTs and how the Jag 2 reloaded TOWs I see why they upgraded the 1's
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Old October 29th, 2017, 12:11 PM
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Default Re: another project for someone

.....also , the info I have ( sketchy.......) leaves some doubt in regard to if the Jag 1A3's are still in German Sevice or not.....
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Old October 29th, 2017, 12:39 PM

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Default Re: another project for someone

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Which raises the question........when did they go OOS in Austria.....I saw one hint it was 2010
Looks like May 2006 - that's when they started looking for buyers.
The unit using them was disbanded one year later, effective July 1st 2007.
http://www.rechnungshof.gv.at/berich...rpruefung.html

"2010" looks like a simple misunderstanding - the reform project was named "Bundesheer 2010" but that was the projected end date, work actually started in 2004.
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Old October 29th, 2017, 01:03 PM
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Default Re: another project for someone

Now corrected
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