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  #1  
Old August 14th, 2018, 08:57 PM
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Default Merkava invincible?

Because Merkava tanks are invincible? I tested Iran against Israel and nothing can against the young Merkava, maybe some Kornet borrowed from the Russians can make some scratch.
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  #2  
Old August 15th, 2018, 03:18 AM
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Post Re: Merkava invincible?

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Originally Posted by Roman View Post
Because Merkava tanks are invincible? I tested Iran against Israel and nothing can against the young Merkava, maybe some Kornet borrowed from the Russians can make some scratch.
I am not too sure about that - Merkava invincibility. Against the Iranians they may or should dispatch their tanks easily, although the Iranians got upgraded T-72s and some T-80's packages (some domestically made and others Russian).

So, I say it is the crews that count, or make a difference. And, with crews it is experience that is salient.

No tank in the world has more battle experience than the Abrams. Her crews are first rate - top notch battle tested and trained from the dense forests of Louisiana to the Mohave Desert.

In a test with the Merkava, remember Israeli tank crews have not fought a armor vs armor battle since 1973. In the past 40 years or so, her tank crews including the Merkava were used as self-propelled artillery in battles against essentially light infantry opponents.

In a test of the Merkava, to assess her battle worthiness, put her up against Abrams, and Leopards, but significantly reducing her experience level in MobHack on account of her lack of battle experience.

Another factor to consider, is that Americans and NATO train to fight heavy armor formations with armor, while Israel does not have any opponents with armor. Secondly, Israel has adopted a policy using overwhelming firepower of her air force to decimate Iranian armor formations - or anyone else - before those formations could come close to Israel proper.

Israel's power is in her air force. Unless, her air force is checked, her tank crews won't even have to button up.

And, finally what is somewhat difficult to simulate in our game is the role of the Merkava, in that she is designed to protect the crew, provide armor in a defensive mode, and in counterinsurgency and urban operations. Put her intended role up against a tank designed to fight fast moving armor on armor battles and the contest may not be optimistic for the Merkava side.

Oh, hey Roman what is up with your signature? Everyone knows who won the 2014 World Cup and it was not Argentina. And, Germany may have had a better chance to win it again in 2018 if only they had treated Mesut Ozil as the talented midfielder he is.


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Old August 15th, 2018, 06:24 AM
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Default Re: Merkava invincible?

I think Roman is referring to the fact any model of the Merkava dominates the battlefield in its theatre, better armour gun fire control optics you name it means it can kill virtually any tank in that theatre at any range. Conversely they need a flank or rear shot even point blank front is a fail. Very hard given the open nature of most of the terrain and the fact the Merk has superior vision.
Same scenario as the Gulf War its a Turkey shoot the Abrams could kill the enemy before they could even see them.

This did lead to Israel becoming complacent as they thought it invincible and indeed it was the Kornet that showed them otherwise. It survived very well on the whole though damaged not taken out. Better I would say than the Leo 2A4s.
Israeil therefore invented Trophy and advanced battle management systems.

Cannot prove this but sure USA does well out of funding Israel, SEPv2 was a catch-up to the Merk? They did run back to back exercise which the Merk won overall. Better vision faster target acquisition and despite being slower overall the Merk outperformed on the rough terrain it operates in, Abrams may have got modified “dessert tracks” from this.
Game reflects this well enough in vehicle stats.

Merk crews I would guess are the best trained in the Middle East in many cases by miles as the training is generally poor in that area.

Modern Merk and someone correct me if I am wrong is formidable.
Proven armour package (best as can no modern tank has been proven by a peer on peer battle with same generation tank)
Can carry its own dismounts for foot recon at the expense of a few rounds, all carry drones for scouting.
Trophy, only proven as far as I know defensive system that works, so far 100% success rate. Also so far functioned correctly not firing to save ammo if incoming is not considered a threat. Now I believe can refit to allow reloading from inside the vehicle.
Very good battle management take out the obvious command tank first all incoming fire is tracked and relayed to the company through it.
One might think Israel thinks situational awareness is important, they punch well above there weight technology wise, first ERA armour, drone swarm attack and weapons like NLOS so yes the Merk is a hard nut to crack.

As to Abrams crews being the best don’t think anyone can touch the airforce, no other country can afford the flight time.
Same should apply to tanks I suppose but Israel have outshot them, European tank games, admittedly take with a grain of salt but USA is consistently beaten. Germany and surprisingly Poland using 2A4s are top, runners. There does seem to be a possible trend in Europe, if you only have a few top line MBT’s you get trained well on using them, Austria, Netherlands if I remember were surprisingly good and the Swedes less surprisingly.
Hopefully we never find out who’s best and its irrelevant anyway when it comes to top line equipment and numbers there’s only really one major player don’t think Russia , China or India are in the same league.
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Old August 15th, 2018, 06:44 AM
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Default Re: Merkava invincible?

Try a Gulf I battle, M1A1(HA) with US crews vs T-72's with Iraqi's.
For all intents it was a turkey shoot.
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Old August 15th, 2018, 10:09 AM
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Post Re: Merkava invincible?

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Originally Posted by Imp View Post

As to Abrams crews being the best don’t think anyone can touch the airforce, no other country can afford the flight time.
Same should apply to tanks I suppose but Israel have outshot them, European tank games, admittedly take with a grain of salt but USA is consistently beaten. Germany and surprisingly Poland using 2A4s are top, runners. There does seem to be a possible trend in Europe, if you only have a few top line MBT’s you get trained well on using them, Austria, Netherlands if I remember were surprisingly good and the Swedes less surprisingly.

Hopefully we never find out who’s best and its irrelevant anyway when it comes to top line equipment and numbers there’s only really one major player don’t think Russia , China or India are in the same league.
You maybe referring to the Strong Europe Tank Challenge (SETC), a platoon vs platoon match held every year since 2016. Admittedly, US crews are beaten, but not by very much.

In armor doctrine, I think it is fair to say, the US marries the Bradley and the Abrams.

Kudos for the great points in your post.

SETC citation: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stro...Tank_Challenge


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Old August 15th, 2018, 02:41 PM
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Default Re: Merkava invincible?

So to mention, it remains unclear what is the exact armour protection of Merkava, at least when it comes to standard efficiency against SABOT. Anti-HEAT is pretty well covered in SPBMT, indeed Merkava can be frontally killed only from the Kornet at that point.

Here is an interesting thread covering the expected efficiency. There are solid arguments stating that in fact Merkava is MUCH LESS effective against tank vs. tank combat that one may predict.

Also, there is a formidable note: this is currently the cheapest MBT of all of its class. It could mean some cuts.

http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/101...ion-estimates/
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Old August 15th, 2018, 03:50 PM
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Default Re: Merkava invincible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shahadi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman View Post
Because Merkava tanks are invincible? I tested Iran against Israel and nothing can against the young Merkava, maybe some Kornet borrowed from the Russians can make some scratch.
I am not too sure about that - Merkava invincibility. Against the Iranians they may or should dispatch their tanks easily, although the Iranians got upgraded T-72s and some T-80's packages (some domestically made and others Russian).

So, I say it is the crews that count, or make a difference. And, with crews it is experience that is salient.

No tank in the world has more battle experience than the Abrams. Her crews are first rate - top notch battle tested and trained from the dense forests of Louisiana to the Mohave Desert.

In a test with the Merkava, remember Israeli tank crews have not fought a armor vs armor battle since 1973. In the past 40 years or so, her tank crews including the Merkava were used as self-propelled artillery in battles against essentially light infantry opponents.

In a test of the Merkava, to assess her battle worthiness, put her up against Abrams, and Leopards, but significantly reducing her experience level in MobHack on account of her lack of battle experience.

Another factor to consider, is that Americans and NATO train to fight heavy armor formations with armor, while Israel does not have any opponents with armor. Secondly, Israel has adopted a policy using overwhelming firepower of her air force to decimate Iranian armor formations - or anyone else - before those formations could come close to Israel proper.

Israel's power is in her air force. Unless, her air force is checked, her tank crews won't even have to button up.

And, finally what is somewhat difficult to simulate in our game is the role of the Merkava, in that she is designed to protect the crew, provide armor in a defensive mode, and in counterinsurgency and urban operations. Put her intended role up against a tank designed to fight fast moving armor on armor battles and the contest may not be optimistic for the Merkava side.

Oh, hey Roman what is up with your signature? Everyone knows who won the 2014 World Cup and it was not Argentina. And, Germany may have had a better chance to win it again in 2018 if only they had treated Mesut Ozil as the talented midfielder he is.

Some of the things you mention are a bit off to say the least. I am not in the mood to go into detail but...dude!
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Old August 15th, 2018, 03:53 PM
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Default Re: Merkava invincible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman View Post
Because Merkava tanks are invincible? I tested Iran against Israel and nothing can against the young Merkava, maybe some Kornet borrowed from the Russians can make some scratch.
A few years ago (5 or so) I managed to kill a Merkava with a Greek Chaffee. Well, several of them surrounded it, but yeah.
If a Chaffee can kill it, I am sure more modern systems can too.
If you can't pen them from the front and can't flank them, use some old cold war tactics. Wait for them to pass your line, have hidden AT teams and strike from behind.
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Old August 15th, 2018, 06:20 PM
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Default Re: Merkava invincible?

Yes was referring to SETC tank challenge and only from the point of view that USA may not be the best as stated.

Lightly protected lower front hull is (was) a common design practice, many tanks skip composite armor there. Probably considered hard to hit and as its right at the front to reduce weight for balance and control.
Challenger was an example IED’s have caused upgrades in this area after driver was injured.

Think the first Merk loss was a shot through open rear hatches, as said complacency they parked up in the same place each day and did a foot patrol.
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Old August 16th, 2018, 01:59 AM
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Default Re: Merkava invincible?

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Originally Posted by Wdll View Post
A few years ago (5 or so) I managed to kill a Merkava with a Greek Chaffee. Well, several of them surrounded it, but yeah.
Reminds me of the time I had a swarm of PzKw II's surrounding a KV-1. I doubt they actually penetrated it but I'm sure the crews ears were bleeding from all the concussions.
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