OOBs way out of whack?

[Mobhack]

looking at the code, the line that does the accuracy adjustment is in the middle of the various spaghetti code. (It is not something I had looked at, ever, so is likely to be in its original place!). Various adjustments for movement and target size etc came after the percentage divider.

In my test scenario, US bazookas were opening up at about 14% shot 1 hit chance. Cranking their preference setting to 30% to-hit only lowered that to 10-11%.

So I commented out that line, copied it to the end of the accuracy-determination spaghetti, and the to-hits went to 6-7% first-shot. Not 30%, but these numbers get modified elsewhere in the spaghetti, by things like leader ratings and all that jazz, so determining precise values, even with the code to hand, is nigh impossible. (And we still get folks who want the "tables" ).

Note to self - if I ever write a wargame engine from the ground-up, make it table based, just like normal tabletop rules!.

Solution to make the code behave as end users would expect, is to move that line to where I did, it seems.

Good catch! - something we all had assumed was working in the original SSI code, was not.

Cheers
Andy

[Deputy]

Andy: Based on Chuck's findings (thanks for checking that out Chuck!!!), I can make some modifications to the weapon power of the various anti-tank weapons. And I thank you for looking into the code and confirming that I'm not totally insane
But....a couple more questions come to mind...

1.Is it possible for users to adjust the code as you did? Or is this something that would have to come in a patch?

2. Is it also possible that other items like rifles, machineguns, etc., might also be affected in the same way?

Thanks a ton for your efforts. I really do like the sim, and any comments I make are to improve things, not criticize.

Dep

[pdoktar]

Deputy said:

US Infantry dug in? Sjouldn't matter hardly at all. Two direct hits with an 88 on the Infantry hex and they should either be eliminated or in flight and disperced.
Dep

You are probbly talking this when the prefences for american infantry is set to min. Because in a 50x50meter area that a hex represents, two 88mm HE shells will not rout a normal infantry squad in real life, shrapnel may not even hit anyone or explosion cause slight concussions. Otherwise infantry would be so useless in combat that everybody should only be using tanks and aircraft etc.

Hence everybody around the world is screaming all the time for bigger guns and airburst rounds and more HE effect on the target. A normal infantry squad is hard to remove / rout from any terrain with just two 88mm shots.

[DRG]

Oh please........

Chucky only quotes the sources that support his ideas. Don't forget how quick he was to support your "death rays attached to the bombs" theory which you later retracted.

You barely understand the way the game works and yet are willing to jump in and modify weapon data based on who knows what preferences settings. It's "death rays attached to the bombs and destroy everything in sight" all over again. I can only imagine what's next.

What Andy told you was the change he made to the code lowers a first shot to hit when the preferences are set to 30% from the existing "10-11%" to "6-7% "....... OK ? When the preferences are set normally that would only be about a 14% chance So IF he puts that change in anyone who cranks the preferences down to 30% ( only you that I know about.....) will only see a 4-5 % change in the first shot to hit from what they see now when it's set to 30%. At best you'd go from 1 chance in 10 of hitting to 1 chance in 15 or thereabouts. It doesn't even begin to explain what you described in your first post and the dramatic difference between what you claim is happening in your game and what I saw and what Marek documented in his post.

I am STILL waiting for that preferences.INI that you told me was going to be posted "ASAP"

Don

[Deputy]

DRG said:
Oh please........

Chucky only quotes the sources that support his ideas. Don't forget how quick he was to support your "death rays attached to the bombs" theory which you later retracted.

You barely understand the way the game works and yet are willing to jump in and modify weapon data based on who knows what preferences settings. It's "death rays attached to the bombs and destroy everything in sight" all over again. I can only imagine what's next.

What Andy told you was the change he made to the code lowers a first shot to hit when the preferences are set to 30% from the existing "10-11%" to "6-7% "....... OK ? When the preferences are set normally that would only be about a 14% chance So IF he puts that change in anyone who cranks the preferences down to 30% ( only you that I know about.....) will only see a 4-5 % change in the first shot to hit from what they see now when it's set to 30%. At best you'd go from 1 chance in 10 of hitting to 1 chance in 15 or thereabouts. It doesn't even begin to explain what you described in your first post and the dramatic difference between what you claim is happening in your game and what I saw and what Marek documented in his post.

I am STILL waiting for that preferences.INI that you told me was going to be posted "ASAP"

Don

I know what every other consumer who buy this game knows. I know how the old Steel Panthers works and how WinSPMBT works. I know how SPWAW works at a consumer level. I should NOT need to have to learn programming code in order to learn what is not working correctly in the game. Unless the code in this game differs substantially from the other two games, something is definitely WRONG here. If you want to continue to swim in DeNial, feel free. All those percentages and hit chance estimates shouldn't mean squat if all the preferences are cranked up to give one side total advantage. And if there is a problem with giving one side total advantage and it doesn't work, then the problem is going to exist throughout the preferences settings. I have checked some weapons settings for the MG42 and 98K Mauser and they are just plain WRONG. It seems like whoever set the weapons numbers wanted to make sure the Allies won no matter what the Preference settings. And just to make your day (since I was at the Doctor most of mine), here's your precious Preferences.ini info:

[PREFERENCES]
PREF_HIDDEN_FIRE=1
PREF_MUSIC=1
PREF_OBJ_FLAGS=1
PREF_SOUND=1
PREF_ID_TAG=1
PREF_HEX_SIDE=1
PREF_AUTO_RALLY=1
PREF_ANIMATION=1
PREF_MOVE_RADIUS=1
PREF_USER_PREF=1
PREF_BREAK=0
PREF_AMMO=0
PREF_COMMAND=1
PREF_MORALE=1
PREF_SPOTTER=1
PREF_MOVE_SHOOT=1
PREF_MINES=1
PREF_COUNTRY_EXP=1
PREF_SOUND_VOL=2
PREF_ANIM_LEVEL=4
PREF_DELAY=1
PREF_SPOT0=250
PREF_SPOT1=30
PREF_HIT0=250
PREF_HIT1=30
PREF_ROUT0=250
PREF_ROUT1=30
PREF_TROOP_QUAL0=70
PREF_TROOP_QUAL1=70
PREF_TANK_TOUGH0=250
PREF_TANK_TOUGH1=30
PREF_INF_TOUGH0=250
PREF_INF_TOUGH1=30
PREF_ARTY_EFFECT=100
PREF_MAP_WIDTH=50
PREF_FAST_ART=1
PREF_POINT0=0
PREF_POINT1=0
PREF_AIR0=-1
PREF_AIR1=-1
PREF_AITKHVY=1
PREF_MAP_HEIGHT=50

[Deputy]

I've been investigating some of the number setting for the weapons in WinSPWW2 and came out with some really odd stuff.

For instance...the HE Kill numbers for the German MP38/40 9MM submachinegune is 5. The HE Kill numbers for the 98K rifle are 1. According to the help manual... "HE Kill - the value of the round at killing soft targets. Bigger is better!."
Oops!!!! Here's an instance where bigger ISN'T better. By this type of thinking, pistol ammo is more deadly than rifle ammo. Sorry....that just ain't so. This isn't measuring multiple hits by the submachinegun, it's only measuring the size (diameter) of the projectile vs it's damage to humans. More and more I think the OOBs are going to need some major reworking to get them correct.

Dep

[PatG]

Don and Andy - and a lot of others - get a little testy when people start saying the game is "broken" especially with no supporting save files etc. Lots of "bug" reports have come through, including from me, that have proven to have other non-code related causes (yes mine was from a trashed ini file and a some other Windows related corruption).

If only one player is complaining then odds are that something is wrong with that player's set up - not the code. In this case you found a genuine bug that looks like it will be fixed in the next patch.

If your game experience is still way out of whack, try a complete delete and reinstall. It's a pain yes, but it should fix any badness on your end.

And with that gentlemen - I call it time for all to retreat to their board edges for a cuppa or a pint as you wish.

[Mobhack]

Of course end users cannot change these as code is not available to them.

Cheers
Andy

[evan]

Deputy said:


For instance...the HE Kill numbers for the German MP38/40 9MM submachinegune is 5. The HE Kill numbers for the 98K rifle are 1. According to the help manual... "HE Kill - the value of the round at killing soft targets. Bigger is better!."
Oops!!!! Here's an instance where bigger ISN'T better. By this type of thinking, pistol ammo is more deadly than rifle ammo. Sorry....that just ain't so. This isn't measuring multiple hits by the submachinegun, it's only measuring the size (diameter) of the projectile vs it's damage to humans. More and more I think the OOBs are going to need some major reworking to get them correct.

Dep

And if you look at the British OOB you'll find the same thing when you compare the Lee Enfield .303 and the Thompson gun. I think that you might find the rate of fire comes into the calculation at this point. Both rifles being bolt action and the MP38/40 not being so.

Just a thought.

I agree however that this can be a frustrating game and requires a more thoughtful and paitent attitude that even other variants of the game.

Evan

[chuckfourth]

Hi DRG
Well I looked for descriptions of Bazookas in action and those presented are the only two I found that were detailed enough to be relevant. If I had found one stating that yes a bazooka team knocked out a tiger through its frontal armour I wouldn't have posted anything.
Ian Hogg seems a very reputable source to me I would imagine that his figures represent the -effective- penetration of the listed weapons while your games figures represent maximum penetrations (ie ineffective needle holes).
Something I didnt mention ealier was that sloped armour seemed to defeat the bazooka missle completely.
Best Regards Chuck.