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  #561  
Old October 16th, 2020, 07:20 AM
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Default Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.

Fastboat,

My current understanding is the USMC wants to completely transition to the F-35 ASAP for the sake of simplifying their logistic requirements. The F-35B will replace all Harrier squadrons and some F/A-18 ones. They'll acquire a limited number of F-35Cs mostly due to their larger internal ordnance capacity and the fact that the USN plans to use more F-35Cs then Bs for the same reason (internal "stealth" ordnance capacity) and the pilot exchange between USN/USMC means many USN squadrons have a USMC pilot and most USMC one have a USN one so the USMC needs pilots familiar with the F-35C. Additionally one of the squadrons aboard one of the currently deployed carriers is frequently a USMC squadron.

The USN plans to keep, and upgrade, some of their F/A-18Es/Fs as they're a better air superiority platform then the F-35, and having an intact carrier to land on is kind of important. The USMC isn't really concerned with seizing air superiority only maintaining it (it's expected the USAF/USN will achieve it before they go ashore, because without it they can't). The USMC Air Wings exist solely to provide ground support and necessary escort/EW/refueling/ect. functions.

As to the E/A-18G Growler and EF-35C Ferret it doesn't make sense for the USMC to maintain 3x F-18 squadrons when the rest have transitioned to F-35s. And it wouldn't be the first time the USN "allowed" the USMC to work the bugs out of an aircraft before the USN adopts it. So while it may (or may not) take longer to get the F-35G operational then the F-35C they'll be USN/USMC only as far as I know because the USAF plans to use only the F-35A.

OF COURSE all this is plans and programs until NAVAIR speaks, and plans may change for any number of reasons (practical and political).

You'll note from your references there are no plans to certify the USMCs F/A-18Cs/Ds with the SDB, no real reason to as they'll be replaced ASAP. Also the USMC has not budgeted any $ for upgrading their current F/A-18Cs/Ds.
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Last edited by Suhiir; October 16th, 2020 at 07:52 AM..
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  #562  
Old October 16th, 2020, 11:40 AM
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Fallout Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.

I would reread Para. 5 of Post #560 again. Also taken from the Elgin AB (The USAF Weapons Test Center and Range. Where we launched our TLAM-C's to targets at that range to validate the operational use of the VLS onboard.) USAF press release dated 13 Oct. 2020 with the following quote...

"The program plans to begin fielding on the Navy’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet later this year followed by integration on the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.
(And as you know, by extension (NAVAIR) means the USMC as well.)

SBD II is a joint-interest Air Force and Navy major acquisition program. The Armament Directorate’s Miniature Munitions Division here serves as the acquisition lead in partnership with Raytheon Missiles and Defense."
https://www.eglin.af.mil/News/Articl...erational-use/

Also at the very top of the below ref. under topic "Latest Update from 15 Oct 2020 I again quote...

"October 15/20: F-15E Operational Flights The US Air Force’s Air Combat Command has approved external link the GBU-53/B Small Diameter Bomb II for F-15E operational flights. The press release from Eglin Air Force Base says the weapon is expected to be field on the F/A-18E/F later this year. The GBU-53B StormBreaker, which entered operational testing in 2018, is a small diameter bomb that features a multimode seeker to guide the weapon with infrared, millimeter-wave radar and semi-active lasers in addition to or with GPS and inertial system guide. The Air Force’s fielding decision means F-15E squadrons can now be equipped with the weapon. The Navy and Marines intend to use it on their versions of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter."

So fielded on the F/A-18E/F by the end of this year.

And the USN/USMC also intends to use it on their respective F-35's (Which as already posted are not ready.)
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...etition-06510/

This should've not been this hard.


Mountains were great!! Had fun and decent weather!! Back at it today to start a very tough 2 day work week!?!

Regards,
Pat
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  #563  
Old October 16th, 2020, 03:40 PM
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Default Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.

I'm not going to touch anything ATM... come the end of Febuary you two can thrash out your best guess and I'll decide what I'm going to do....but right now that is nada
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  #564  
Old October 16th, 2020, 04:15 PM
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Default Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH View Post
I would reread Para. 5 of Post #560 again.
I did, why I pointed out the F/A-18C/D was not on the list the SDB is to be certified for. As to the existing use on the EF-35C Ferret (starting in 2018) it's not worth creating a new unit for a 2-year time period and YES the E/A-18G Growler could be extended till the end of 2020 and the the EF-35C Ferret incorporated, I may consider that.
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  #565  
Old October 18th, 2020, 02:58 AM
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Fallout Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.

Suhiir,
I will first start with an apology to concerning your last post. I misinterpreted the point you were making.

But know me better than most, so you know once a topic has got my attention, I just keep on digging. Most of the information is very current or better. Most of it also comes from the USMC. And the rest from the USN and USAF. The rest is from closely related sources.

Right now I'll simply address the EA-18G "GROWLER". But we have to go back a couple of years first.

The last Combat Aerial EW platform the USMC operated was the EA-6B "PROWLER". Even as the USMC decided to "Sundown" the plane, it was still considered one of the best "EW" platforms in the world.

Sundown occurred on 08 March 2019 for the last SQD. to operate the EA-6B. I believe we discussed this at the time.
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/new...al-deployment/
https://news.usni.org/2019/03/08/mar...owler-squadron


So that leaves the question, what did the USMC replace it with?

Well I can tell you, the USMC didn't replace it with the EA-18G "GROWLER".

So if you have a Marine version in the OOB you can safely DELETE it.

There is ONLY one operator of that plane in the U.S. Armed Forces, and that service is the USN. And the USN is keeping that plane, as I've already posted recently, well past 2025.

My Marine friend, will know well the who, what and where the following ref. is. Also this is to be considered under the "current or better" as noted above.

Also before I post it, I will quote from the last sentence...
"The F-35C is expected to declare IOC in August 2018 (Actually that happened a little later, IOC was declared on 28 Feb 2019 notice the trend here!?!).
https://news.usni.org/2019/02/28/nav...strike-fighter

Now for the rest of the sentence as follows...
FOC is expected for both variants (F-35B/C as I realize not everyone will read the full para.) in the late 2020’s."
https://www.candp.marines.mil/Progra...-Lightning-II/


I know the standard I try hard to hold myself to, and am expected by many out here to do the same, for equipment, Full Operating Capability (FOC), Fielded, Inducted and similar descriptions, depending on what part of the world we're talking about.

And NOT for the following, Entered Mass Production, Contract signed, Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) signed, Operational Evaluation (OPEVAL), Initial Operating/Operational Capability (IOC) and my all-time favorite, I read it somewhere.

My perspective only, how much more legitimate pieces of equipment that's out there could Don and I have gotten into the game over these "how many years" if it wasn't for ALL the equipment we've had to fix in the OOB's because of that last para above?

And again you don't have to look any further then last years submissions.

It is sad as I posted a couple of weeks back when I checked my old FIREFOX file, cleaned it up, got down to simple equipment issues thinking I'd be pretty much just cleaning out that file and deleting it, until, I opened the first 2 that were from 2014/2015, checked the OOB's, and can you guess what I found?

They weren't even in them. That to me was both frustrating but even more just plain sad.

I'll be glad when 2026 arrives and I submit my last submission(s) but, until then I just want to do it right and walk away with head up and my integrity intact that's for here and when I leave my job shortly after that.

We have the best wargames of the type out here and speaking for myself, I want to keep it that way.

Nothing in life comes easy, I don't think we were born with a "silver spoon" in our mouths, anywhere else, well it'd just be painful. All we can do is "shift around" be diligent, patient and work hard. And if you're lucky, you just might find that "silver spoon" made it to your mouth after all!?!

On second thought, I'll just pass on that last part.

I'll post the rest later today or tomorrow and I insist as I spent a lot of time with this in regards to staying/getting with military sources on this issue(s).

Regards,
Pat
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Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; October 18th, 2020 at 03:09 AM..
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  #566  
Old October 18th, 2020, 12:05 PM
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Default Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.

ACK!

I knew the EA-6B was stood down (more due to airframe fatigue then any desire to replace it I believe) in 3/2019, I also knew the USN replaced it with the EA-18G. I ASSUMED the USMC had done the same.

Since the USMC OOB already includes several USN only aircraft the fact that they're not flown by USMC pilots is irrelevant for OOB purposes.

But as one article pointed out, this does leave the USA in a pickle as far as SEAD aircraft goes. You may want to look into the F-4G Advanced Wild Weasel and F-16CJ/DJ.
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  #567  
Old October 19th, 2020, 06:39 PM
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Fallout Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.

Do not feel bad about the USMC F/A-18G situation. I thought they had them as well, it would've been a "natural" extension or "route" to replace the venerable EA-6B "PROWLER". The date I gave in my last post was for when the USMC retired the EA-6B planes they flew.

They USN retired theirs roughly two years prior when fleet levels for the F/A-18G "GROWLERS" was achieved to allow for the "sundown" of the USN versions.

Ironically that's also about the time when the USMC "sunset" their first SQD. of EA-6B planes.

So what replaced the USMC the EA-6B? What is considered to this day a somewhat "controversial" program called MAGTF EW. I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this matter except to quote the following ref. (And yes I read this.) so this is the "big picture"...

Won't let me copy, so just scroll down to just below the 4th picture showing the EA-6B refueling, it's only 2 sentences and you're done.
https://aviationphotodigest.com/wti-1-18/

Let's now continue where I left off with the USMC...

First a refresher from my last post...
1) These next 2 articles are from the USMC.mil website.

2) Program Status (Real time) of the F35B/C from the same named section of the next ref.
"FOC is expected for both variants in the late 2020’s."
https://www.candp.marines.mil/Progra...-Lightning-II/


Now what's to be done...Well again from the same official USMC.mil site they provided the answer concerning USMC aviation into the future.

But again background is required concerning everyone's F-35 version as already posted
1) The "key operational/logistics software "ODIN" will not reach FOC until DEC 2022.

2) Also posted an article discussing a 13 month production delay for the whole F-35 program from late 2018. This might cause some of the below to actually, shift to the right 1-2 years.

Also a factor which I posted in the MBT Thread will be the USMC PLAN 2030 which will reduce the of Squadrons along some plane types to include the F-35B/C.

I do believe that Suhiir will be surprised by what will survive and for how long they'll be around. Most will still be operational through 2030 and maybe slightly beyond.

So having done the daily ops brief for 5 different Admirals in 2 separate tours at COMSUBGRU TEN, I can say this started out as a "top brass" review before being filtered down to the local area Commanders.

This "Power Point" presentation is from NOV 2019, therefore was meant to address current issues from 2020 forward.
This covers all aspects of aviation to include ongoing and future upgrades already planned for. It addresses MAGTF and MAGTF EW which are similar but, different in their overall scope and Weapons.

There is a lot to this, however, I'm primarily limiting myself to the air assets under Section 3 Marine Aviation Platforms and Programs I'm keeping this at KISS. I'm concerned only with the type and operational service aspect.

It is incumbent upon the reader for the rest. And I've read this fully where it touches on game issues and not so much on subsystems beyond service upgrades for said aircraft and helicopters.

I will add 1 year to those end dates (As noted.) based on the current delays to the F-35 Program that affects the whole series i.e. ODIN etc.

Even though I'll add that year (Again maybe.), the F/A 18A might stay as projected. This possibly could affect the F/A 18B as well, due to USMC PLAN 2030 as these plans just don't "pop up" out of nowhere, based on the scope of the Plan normally it takes months or longer to prepare them, so it might be already considered in this brief based on that NOV 2019 release date.

So the...2019 MARINE CORPS AVIATION PLAN
FOCUS...Section 3 Marine Aviation Platforms and Programs


F-35B/C I see no change due to recent Program events and from the USMC "newer" (Compared to this one.) ref that projects FOC in the late 2020's. I'll be a little more optimistic in regards to the USMC because they are further along in the development process then the USN and USAF. From all I can gather to this point...

I see F-35B FOC between JUN 2023+ - DEC 2025.
Again from the earlier posted same source ref.
"FOC is expected for both variants in the late 2020’s."
https://www.candp.marines.mil/Progra...-Lightning-II/


From the "Transition Chart (TC)" Note Block 10B with the following caveat "Right side depicts planned FOC and PAA, but remains event driven." and we are...
EVENT DRIVEN as neither NAVAIR or USMC have announced FOC.

F/A-18 A-D...

From the below ref...
"F/A-18s are, and will remain, the primary bridging platform to F35B/C, with a planned sunset of 2030."

Upgrades contracted through 2023 currently.

Increase TI/GSR w/4th GEN LITENING Pods.

Suhiir you've got some work here that will at least include a small EW increase and maybe weapons changes for you're (USMC) HORNETS.

F/A-18A-END OCT 2023
leaving it as is.

F/A-18A++ (Improved-Mine)-END OCT 2027 possibly could be longer.

F/A-18C/D-END DEC 2030 possibly could be longer.

Next...

AV-8B "HARRIER"...

Upgrades contracted through 2025 currently.

Increase TI/GSR w/4th GEN LITENING Pods.

You have many NEW weapons to use on this platform as noted in here.

END OCT 2027 + 1yr = OCT 2028. This aircraft will benefit from the F-35 delays. There is still plenty of information on the web that due to generous UK offering I posted on several years back, that they'll be around until 2030. This due to the newer airframes the Brits had on their GR9 aircraft.

Skipping down to Helos...

AH-1W...

END OCT 2021.


CH-53E...

Upgrades/Maintenance through end of 2021.

END MAR 2028.

CH-53K...

START FOC...
Looking like Mid-2022 at this time from my files and other.

As you scroll up/down USMC other craft are covered KC-130J/UAV's etc. that's on you.

This F-35 sequence of events over the last week has given me work to do on the USN and USAF side of things, hopefully just "tweaking" some aspects such TI/GSR and EW.

Make your USMC planes better. You're selling the CORPS "legacy" aircraft a little "short" I feel.
https://www.aviation.marines.mil/Por...9%20AvPlan.pdf

I'm surprised they stayed up on my PC for about the last 30hrs.

But I did backup what I had up to 0200 this morning.

Now I have to respond to a guy in Germany who I think wants to buy a book on LEOPARDS from Tankograd in Germany. All I wanted was 2 pieces of information, nothing comes easy or in this case cheap!?!.

I'm ready for my walk!

Regards,
Pat
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Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; October 19th, 2020 at 10:57 PM..
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  #568  
Old October 20th, 2020, 01:40 PM
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Fallout Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.

I did mention in my last post that the USMC PLAN 2030 could effect some of what I posted, and now, it has. The reason I left the F/A-18A END date unchanged was in anticipation that PLAN 2030 might cause it to maybe have that date shifted to the left. I figured it would go "sooner than later" and be the first aviation asset to be cut.

It appears I was wrong.

I left also the AH-1W END date untouched as well, per the USMC AVIATION PLAN 2019 not for reason connected to PLAN 2030 but, because that date made sense from a "transition" point of view.

The USMC retired the AH-1W yesterday 19 OCT. 2020 AND FROM REF.2 the final Sortie was flown on...
"The last AH-1W sortie was flown on Oct. 14 by HMLA-773 Detachment A at Naval Air Station Joint Reserve Base New Orleans, Louisiana."

So there you have it.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/n...upercobra-helo
https://seapowermagazine.org/marine-...a-helicopters/


There's plenty more where they came on the web now but, these should be enough.

Regards,
Pat
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  #569  
Old October 20th, 2020, 04:13 PM
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Default Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.

Well isn't that interesting.. yesterday... the OOB has them all retired by 2012.....who'd have thunk it?
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Old October 21st, 2020, 11:15 AM
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Default Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.

I tend to ignore reserve units and legacy units ... also FOC, and look at probable deployments.

Example: At the start of the first Gulf War the USMC had a handful of M1's but acquired enough (regular and HA) that 50% of their fielded tank force (all of 2 battalions) was M1s. So I consider both the M60 ans M1 to be equally available from 1991 thru 1994.

In 1975-6 I was with an active duty unit that still used M14s as their primary (and only) rifle, yet the OOB doesn't show the M14 as being available as an option at that time.

So yes, there are "inaccuracies", but what's "probable" is what the OOB represents not what's "possible" (generally).
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