Really big games Version 2

I just posted a mod and a map (in scenario/mod archive) with lots of moons which will be the starting point for my next map. To have any point on the map within range 50 of any other point on the map, I will have to remove only 9 warp point links, add only 56 from regular systems to 24 feeder systems, then add six nexus systems and Central. Each feeder system connects to nine regular systems and one nexus system. Each nexus system connects to four feeder systems, the other five nexus systems, and Central. Central connects to six nexus systems, three regular systems to be carefully selected, and one link to secure systems. Seven secure systems will be created with no link to the map except the one through Central. That brings the total systems to 240 regular + 6 Nexus + Central + 7 secure = 254. I will post the map again at that point. Then I plan on adding lots of sphereworlds to half the capacity of the regular planets in the 14 added systems and posting again. Then I will follow the ten starting point plan (see really big games thread) for adding good large planets to make the final map with a ratio of three to one planet versus sphereworld capacity. Basically I am setting up a scenario where one player controlling 14 systems has one third the capacity of the remainder of the map, with 27 warp points leading to the regular systems, and one warp point leading to half his production in seven secure systems as a fallback position. This will make an interesting one versus all multiplayer game for whoever controls the nexus! Note that this map has a LOT more warp points than usual. See the patchsys file in the zip for how to get this. What I wanted was a map with good connection so that all empires could meet all others in the first 20-40 turns. LET THERE BE WARS! The friendly races will prosper from trade, and the power of the unfriendly ones will diminish over time as they fail to trade and fight too much.

To save the hassle of looking at another thread, I repeat the instructions from Remote Mining Economics here. You might want to revise these to add the repair bay to the original build since it does not cost much. My revised design at turn 60 in the map posted in the scenario/mod archive took only six turns to build. I verified that you CAN mine over a colonized planet. You get the production from all planets in the stack which have not yet been colonized. So colonize the proper atmosphere ones and mine the rest of the stack! Another bonus of remote mining is that your income from it is NOT included in what you TRADE to other empires. So you can keep them from gaining any new production advantages by mining and doing storage rather than building facilities. Later when you have finally depleted your mines, you can scrap emptied storage facilties and replace them with production.

Build battle cruiser yard ships. Each yard ship goes over a planet of the wrong atmosphere and builds a starbase with master computer III and one remote miner III RM3. It takes 4 turns and when built immediately do a retrofit to same with 3 RM3 plus one repair bay. Retrofit again to same with 7 RM3. Retrofit again to same with 13 RM3 and now 13 to repair. Next turn you have 8 working and the repair bay added. Retrofit to same with 22 RM3. Retrofit to same with 23 RM3 and one minelayer III which has space for 6 small mines. There are 16 to repair and the Last retrofit is done. Next turn the yard ship shifts to another planet and starts over. So it takes 4+3 = 7 turns per planet mined. Next turn your income is 800x23xtotal percentage of planet/ moons which is 184 per percent. Base maintenance is 5181 125 701. So breakeven is 29% total. Factor of ten profit per turn versus maintenance is 201% requiring moons, but who is that greedy? The base costs at least 42k minerals, but I did not bother to check how much more multiple refits make it. The planet is depleted one percent per turn. Calculate L = total percent minus 29. Then total percentage earned until you drained it down to breakeven is L*(L+1)/2.
Examples % = 39 gains 55 * 184 = 10k definitely not worth it
% = 59 gains 465* 184 = 85k about a factor of two minus initial is 1x.
% = 79 gains 1275 * 184 = 234k a factor of 5-1 but it takes 50 turns
% = 99 gains 2485 * 184 = 457k a factor of 10-1 takes 70 turns
Draining a 99 down to 59 is 40 turns at (40*41/2+30*40 = 2020) * 184 = 371k Which is a factor of 9-1 payback in 40 turns.
At 99% if you have the proper atmosphere on a large planet you can get yard + 19 * 1000 * 1.2 Jubiliant * .99 = 22572 per turn. At that rate it takes 14 turns to get the same minerals payback as the base gives in 40 turns. But it also takes 5 turns to build the yard and 19 more to reach full production. So call it 5+24 turns to get an equal payback. So if it will be 10 or more turns until you can plant a colony with the proper atmosphere, do the starbase. Now why would that be a factor ? Well it turns out that production from planets is part of your score. But production from remote mining is NOT!!!!!! To have an enormous minerals surplus while avoiding MEE you just need to learn minerals 3, battle cruisers, and bases 3. If you have the time you should also do yards 3, computers 3, repair 3, and mines 3, but the economics without them is almost the same.

I just posted the warp points connected Version of map7 as map7a in the scenario/mod archive. I ran a 25 turn test to see how the races from Version 1.41 with 1.72 TDM-Modpack would cope. Below are the stats at turn 25, which took two hours to play with all full AI on and computer controlled except Clays. Race name is followed by # of colony ships, # of systems seen, # planets can colonize, # planets colonize/breathe, then # wars/ # no treaty, # non aggression, # trade alliance, # trade and research, # military alliance, # partnership, and total # met.
Clays------- 2/248/2238/273 - 1/5/0/07/2/1/0 - 16
Abbidon-----2/079/0208/036 - 2/0/0/13/2/0/0 - 17
Amonkrie---2/058/0835/159 - 3/4/0/07/3/0/0 - 17
Colonials---1/085/0725/154 - 1/1/0/04/1/1/2 - 10
Cryslonite--1/129/0359/091 - 2/1/0/11/0/2/1 - 17
CueCappa--1/057/0459/090 - 1/2/1/11/2/1/0 - 18
Drushocka--0/098/1685/358 - 2/2/1/10/4/0/0 -19
Eee-----------1/248/0722/176 - 2/3/0/10/1/0/0 - 16
Krill------------2/063/0568/137 - 2/2/1/13/1/0/0 - 19
Narn-----------2/043/0401/079 - 1/2/0/06/5/1/0 - 15
Phong---------0/069/0578/138 - 1/3/0/07/5/1/0 -17
Piundan------2/046/0383/079 - 2/4/0/08/3/1/0 - 18
Pyrochette--1/032/0295/062 - 2/2/0/03/2/0/0 - 09
Rage-----------1/060/0453/050 - 3/7/0/08/0/0/0 - 18
Sallegra-------0/040/0418/079 - 1/0/0/10/5/1/0 - 17
Sergetti--------2/026/0211/047 - 3/3/0/08/1/0/0 - 15
Toltayan-------1/090/0765/147 - 2/1/0/08/5/2/1 - 19
Toron-----------0/007/0054/013 - 2/0/0/04/0/0/0 - 06
UkraTal--------2/066/0915/163 - 2/3/0/08/4/0/0 - 17
Xichung--------2/027/0227/054 - 2/2/3/07/0/0/0 - 14

The only ones doing non aggression are Xichung. But the Xichung are not supposed to make those trade alliances. So if you add an empire as a player, then change to full AI on and to computer controlled, it still does not use all the racial files properly. Presumably the default files are used instead. If you want an empire to use the race style, you must do an edit on the race after adding it to the players list and check both controlled by computer and using style from race. I just verified - saving the edit to file does NOT work, because the next time you add existing it defaults to player controlled again. That STINKS!

The Colonials and Toron have multiple copies of the same designs over and over again. No designs include supply storage for exploration. The Pyrochette may be just unlucky, because they DO have a design with storage. The next lowest is the Xichung at 14 of 20 met, not too bad for turn 25. The average excluding the three exceptions is 17.1, very good for turn 25 in a regular game, but about what I wanted and expected from this map.

I checked out the bug I have reported about culture modifiers not working. It is still there.
Workers - +5% production does NOT work
Warriers - -2% research and -2% intelligence works
Berzerkers - -2% SY rate, -5% research, -5% intelligence works but -5% production does NOT work
Merchants - -2% research works
Scientists - +5% research works
Zealots - -5% research works but -2% production does NOT work
Politicians - -5% production does NOT work
Engineers - +5% SY rate works
Basically modifers to overall production do NOT work for ANY culture. The other things I checked worked okay.

The next map posted will have the secure systems added with lots of sphereworlds. That will take a day or two.



[This message has been edited by LCC (edited 24 June 2001).]

[PsychoTechFreak]

quote:

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Originally posted by LCC:

I checked out the bug I have reported about culture modifiers not working. It is still there.
Workers - +5% production does NOT work
Warriers - -2% research and -2% intelligence works
Berzerkers - -2% SY rate, -5% research, -5% intelligence works but -5% production does NOT work
Merchants - -2% research works
Scientists - +5% research works
Zealots - -5% research works but -2% production does NOT work
Politicians - -5% production does NOT work
Engineers - +5% SY rate works
Basically modifers to overall production do NOT work for ANY culture. The other things I checked worked okay.

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I haven't noticed this so far... was it intended to be fixed with patch 6 ? The annoying thing about it: Now I have to workaround all my zealots, workers and so on to balance out the races again. *sigh*

I just posted a work of art in scenario/mod archive. Map8inprogress is map7a broken into 24 clusters artistically arranged. I did this today very reluctantly after four days of play testing showed that the AI could not cope with a maximum warp point linkage map. Besides taking up to three minutes per AI per turn after about turn 20, the map was covered in yellow territory conflict circles (empires systems to avoid maps). No AI was building colonies because their warships were being blown away in mutual conflict as soon as built. So the priority algorithm called for replacing warships rather than building colony ships. I did a ten turn check of this map8 with 20 empires loaded, Rage in Central home. The only conflict circles were in the Nexus, which was precisely what I wanted.

I withdraw my game challenge, because watching the AI the past few days has got me interested in race creation. I am going to spend the next week or two finishing up the map (only four of 15 nexus done). Then I am going to design a race which can survive and even prosper (against a human player) from a home in the nexus. My goal is to make it a tough game for even my experience level.

When I get the map done you might want to use it in a PBW game with the nexus owner given a 50 turn head start. That should be really challenging even against 19 other players. Hint - atmosphere nones not on warp points have five tech ruins, moons are for organics pop growth 40m/turn/colony while stars are for crystallines...
Helpful hint for map editor Users. When creating a moon, do NOT modify the name until you have done the other stuff. If you do it first, the name gets wiped entirely. If you do it Last, backspace deletes only one character at a time - what a relief!

Map editor wish list in no particular order after the first two :
1) As stated previously, I REALLY want a alphabetical sort option for systems in the add warp link. Last added is useful too, keep it as an option.
2) When a planet is added at the same location as another, default name to moon naming convention, not next planet.
3) Copy/paste planet with all moons from selected location to selected location, automatically renaming to next planet.
4) Copy/paste entire system with user specified name to specified location, modifying planet names etc automatically.
5) Copy/paste a star cluster with random system names created, modifying planet names etc to match.
6) Copy/paste from one map to another.
7) Random generation of planets and moons within a selected system adding another properly named each time selected (multiples 1,3,5,10), specifying the ranges as done in settings.txt.
8) Changing the default for a new planet to user specified default such as 150/150/150 optimal rather than 100/100/100 mild.
9) Shift entire star cluster tied to moving a system in the cluster.
10) Star cluster pattern library with auto select best configuration for existing warp links. Tough one, I know. I would be willing to make some patterns if credited.
11) Generate systemtypes specification mod file for a selected system.
12) Option to create the other end of a warp link automatically, placing it randomly in the destination system. Keep option to have one way warp points.
13) Option to show warp point names, grid etc on the map as in the game.
14) Option to have planet pictures automatically random select based upon planet type and atmosphere so it does not have to be specified EVERY SINGLE TIME.
15) Default warp point type to normal if not selected sidnhtbs EST.
16) Default sun to the first yellow star if not selected sidnhtbs EST..
17) If the planet type or atmosphere is changed without changing the picture, call for reselect the planet picture rather than ignoring the change.
Other than the above I LOVE the map editor. It beats the heck out of having to play just random generated quadrants.

That's about it off the top of my head. I have been up over 24 hours finishing the map star clusters, now I am going to get some sleep. If anybody else has some map editor wishes, post them here and I will send an email pointing to this thread (as though they are not already reading the Forum anyway)...

[Atrocities]

quote:

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Clays------- 2/248/2238/273 - 1/5/0/07/2/1/0 - 16
Abbidon-----2/079/0208/036 - 2/0/0/13/2/0/0 - 17
Amonkrie---2/058/0835/159 - 3/4/0/07/3/0/0 - 17
Colonials---1/085/0725/154 - 1/1/0/04/1/1/2 - 10
Cryslonite--1/129/0359/091 - 2/1/0/11/0/2/1 - 17
CueCappa--1/057/0459/090 - 1/2/1/11/2/1/0 - 18
Drushocka--0/098/1685/358 - 2/2/1/10/4/0/0 -19
Eee-----------1/248/0722/176 - 2/3/0/10/1/0/0 - 16
Krill------------2/063/0568/137 - 2/2/1/13/1/0/0 - 19
Narn-----------2/043/0401/079 - 1/2/0/06/5/1/0 - 15
Phong---------0/069/0578/138 - 1/3/0/07/5/1/0 -17
Piundan------2/046/0383/079 - 2/4/0/08/3/1/0 - 18
Pyrochette--1/032/0295/062 - 2/2/0/03/2/0/0 - 09
Rage-----------1/060/0453/050 - 3/7/0/08/0/0/0 - 18
Sallegra-------0/040/0418/079 - 1/0/0/10/5/1/0 - 17
Sergetti--------2/026/0211/047 - 3/3/0/08/1/0/0 - 15
Toltayan-------1/090/0765/147 - 2/1/0/08/5/2/1 - 19
Toron-----------0/007/0054/013 - 2/0/0/04/0/0/0 - 06
UkraTal--------2/066/0915/163 - 2/3/0/08/4/0/0 - 17
Xichung--------2/027/0227/054 - 2/2/3/07/0/0/0 - 14

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"WHAT!!!! No Illuminati???!!" I am most offended!!


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"We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats! They invade our space and we fall back -- they assimilate entire worlds and we fall back! Not again! The line must be drawn here -- this far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!" -- Captain Picard STNG
New Age Ship Yards

I just finished a 25 turn test v1.41 with the same 19 TDM-Modpack v1.72 races as Last test, added as controlled by computer using selected race style in the unfinished map8 posted Last night with a ten good planet (all else default) start. I played the Clays in slot 1 home Central for five turns, then turned control over to full AI on using the AI of the Eee or the default (not sure about that). The table below gives score rank, then # contacted, #wars, #none, # NA, #TA, #TR, #MA, #P, then race name followed by my politics score. The effect of each item is given in parenthesis after it. For each war ten points are subtracted. For each race not contacted two points are subtracted. This is a penalty for timidity, because it is certain that in the nexus quadrant meeting the neighbors is not difficult. Failure to make a treaty is minus one. NA has no effect. Each TA is +1, TR +2, MA+4, P+8. The list is sorted by the politics score I assigned, not by game ranking because in the long run the treaty makers will have the economic power to overcome all war makers. The Ukra Tal, Cue Cappa, and Krill were no surprise, since I saw their treaty making ability in my Last game.

06-19(-00)/1(-10)/00(-00)/0/11(11)/2(04)/2(08)/3(24) Ukra Tal +37 met 4 TA 11
01-19(-00)/1(-10)/01(-01)/0/09(09)/4(08)/4(16)/0(00) Abbidon +22 met 8 TA 10
03-19(-00)/2(-20)/01(-01)/0/10(10)/3(06)/1(04)/2(16) Cue Cappa +15 met 4 TA 7
07-19(-00)/1(-10)/01(-01)/0/15(15)/1(02)/1(04)/0(00) Krill +10 met 8 TA 11
16-18(-02)/1(-10)/04(-04)/0/07(07)/4(08)/2(08)/0(00) Piundan +7 met 6 TA 10
10-19(-00)/2(-20)/02(-02)/1/09(09)/3(06)/1(04)/1(08) Cryslonite +5 met 7 TA 10

13-18(-02)/1(-10)/04(-04)/1/12(12)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Amonkrie -4 met 11 TA18
19-19(-00)/1(-10)/11(-11)/0/04(04)/2(04)/0(00)/1(08) Colonials -5 met 6 War 11
04-16(-06)/1(-10)/08(-08)/0/03(03)/3(06)/0(00)/1(08) Eee -7 met 4 War 8
14-17(-04)/0(-00)/12(-12)/0/04(04)/0(00)/1(04)/0(00) Drushocka -8 met 21 none
15-19(-00)/1(-10)/11(-11)/0/05(05)/1(02)/1(04)/0(00) Pyrochette -10 met 4 none
18-16(-06)/1(-10)/05(-05)/0/10(10)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Phong -11 met 19 TA 20
09-19(-00)/1(-10)/11(-11)/0/07(07)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Sallegra -14 met 8 none
02-19(-00)/1(-10)/12(-12)/0/06(06)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Rage -16 met 4 war 9
05-14(-10)/1(-10)/07(-07)/0/05(05)/1(02)/0(00)/0(00) Narn -20 met 4 war 15
17-19(-00)/2(-20)/11(-11)/0/04(04)/1(02)/1(04)/0(00) Toltayan -21 met 2 war 10
08-18(-02)/2(-20)/10(-10)/0/03(03)/2(04)/1(04)/0(00) Toron -21 met 9 war 16
12-16(-06)/1(-10)/12(-12)/0/03(03)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Sergetti -25 met 3 none
11-18(-02)/2(-20)/09(-09)/2/05(05)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Xi Chung -26 met 6 war 7
20-19(-00)/7(-70)/04(-04)/0/02(02)/1(02)/3(12)/2(16) Clays -42 myself

I would have played longer to see how things developed, but the stupid AI already lost one of my 10 homes, another is almost dead, and only a couple have more than a few defenses. I have only a few ships because they get blown away as soon as they are built. I am under attack by cruisers of seven empires and am doomed to die within ten turns. So much for using the regular AI strategy. It may take a few months, but I will try to develop an AI that can prosper in the nexus home. I will start on it as soon as I finish the map (1-2 weeks). When I get the map finished, it should be a good test bed for AI mod designs since you get more attacks in 25 turns than in 100 of a regular game. It took four hours to play 25 turns, so the game is definitely slower by at least a factor of two than the usual. But it is MUCH faster than map7a before I broke it into clusters. Almost all the conflict takes place in the six nexus and Central. Territory conflicts on the empires systems to avoid maps were minimal, and did not Last long. With ten systems per cluster most AI seem to be colonizing in their own cluster. The major exception is that the AI will go to colonize any ruins planets known before anything else. However for some reason I have yet to figure out the AI does NOT colonize the nexus. I tested my own empire in a game with nothing but neutrals. First it colonizes the unique tech ruins. Then it does the 5 tech ruins. Then it does the wrong atmosphere single tech ruins. Then it does the proper atmosphere moons, all small before tiny. Then it does the wrong atmosphere moons small then tiny. Then it leaves the nexus to colonize ruins. That was as far as I played, which took 60 turns. Occasionally it would break the pattern to colonize a ruins or a high value proper atmosphere planet outside the nexus. My goal is to make an AI that will stay in the nexus for 100-120 turns, then come roaring out to conquer the map.

I did a couple of tests with the Rage home in Central. They did NOT follow the pattern at all. I am not sure how this was accomplished, but it was obvious that they wanted to increase the number of systems claimed at the maximum possible rate. They also left the nexus to attack neutrals as soon as they sent explorer ships to the few unknown home systems. The ONLY unknown systems with the map as I have designed it will be the homes of other races. An ancient race cannot tell, but the missing home systems are immediately obvious to the Rage......

When the map is finished, you might want to play with the Rage as player #1 living in the Nexus and yourself living in a random cluster. They will have all tech quickly, but may not be able to withstand the assault of the other AI in the game. Try it and see.

I just finished another 25 turn test v1.41 with the same 19 TDM-Modpack v1.72 races as Last test, added as controlled by computer using selected race style in the unfinished map8 posted Last night with a ten good planet (all else default) start. I put the Rage in slot 1 home Central. I played the Clays in slot 14 and turned control over to full AI on, but adjusted research to do PD and Ice colony. The table below gives score rank, then # contacted, #wars, #none, # NA, #TA, #TR, #MA, #P, then race name followed by my politics score. Scoring is same as Last post. My first race contact was Rage coming into my cluster on turn 15. Until then my AI never left the cluster. As soon as the first contact was made the Clays AI started sending warships and colony ships into the nexus going to other clusters. So race contact started then. As of turn 25 the Rage are in six wars and have lost two home worlds but have started colonies in six other clusters, so they will live a while. They are using missiles and PPB. I am going to continue playing this game to see how politics unfold and will post when I reach turn 50,75,100. My race this time was the old Clays empire used in the previous game, you can check it by download turn 60 of Last game from the scenario/mod archive. Politics is MUCH better, from not living in Central alone I suspect, because the Rage are getting hammered there too. Once again it took about four hours for 25 turns. Notice that when the human player is NOT within range two warps of the AI colonies then the AI does not meet him. That is why some races have not left their home clusters to meet other AI. I have long suspected this game feature. I expect it is intended to speed up the game so that you do not have to search every system to track down the AI players. OTOH it could just be that the AI only checks the systems within two warps of his colonies. It can NOT be a fuel range problem, because a transit from cluster to cluster is only range 6 to clusters in the two adjacent nexus - a total of 8 more clusters. Until my ships entered the nexus after turn 15 I was within two warps of only four races - the Rage and the other three connected to the same nexus as my cluster. Since my AI never went to check the other clusters until the Rage visited, I conclude that full AI on does not follow the same rules as using style from race, or an Ancient race is not interested in exploration.

16-15(-08)/1(-10)/2(-2)/1/05(05)/2(04)/2(08)/2(16) Colonials +13 met 17 TA 18\
07-16(-06)/1(-10)/2(-2)/0/10(10)/2(04)/0(00)/1(08) Phong +4 met 16 TA 19
03-17(-04)/1(-10)/4(-4)/0/09(09)/2(04)/1(04)/0(00) Cue Cappa -1 met 17 TA21
06-13(-12)/0(-00)/3(-3)/0/08(08)/2(04)/0(00)/0(00) Clays -3 myself
20-15(-08)/1(-10)/2(-2)/0/11(11)/0(00)/1(04)/0(00) Cryslonite -5 met 20 TA 24
02-17(-04)/1(-10)/5(-5)/0/10(10)/1(02)/0(00)/0(00) Abbidon -7 met 16 TA 19
05-15(-08)/1(-10)/1(-1)/1/12(12)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Eee -7 met 19 TA 22
09-18(-02)/2(-20)/2(-2)/0/12(12)/1(02)/1(04)/0(00) Drushocka -8 met 17 TA 20
10-15(-08)/1(-10)/5(-5)/0/08(08)/1(02)/0(00)/0(00) Sallegra -13 met 20 none
18-18(-02)/2(-20)/4(-4)/0/12(12)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Krill -14 met 18 TA 20
07-10(-18)/1(-10)/2(-2)/0/05(05)/1(02)/0(00)/1(08) Toltayan -15 not met
02-16(-06)/1(-10)/9(-9)/1/05(05)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Sergetti -20 met 18 TA 23
13-16(-06)/2(-20)/5(-5)/2/06(06)/1(02)/0(00)/0(00) Xi Chung -23 not met
11-14(-10)/1(-10)/8(-8)/1/04(04)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Amonkrie -24 met 16 TA 18
18-10(-18)/1(-10)/4(-4)/0/05(05)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Ukra Tal -27 not met
15-07(-24)/1(-10)/1(-1)/0/05(05)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Piundan -30 not met
16-06(-26)/1(-10)/0(-0)/0/05(05)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Toron -31 not met
09-05(-28)/1(-10)/1(-1)/0/02(02)/1(02)/0(00)/0(00) Pyrochette -35 not met
13-05(-28)/1(-10)/2(-2)/0/02(02)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Narn -38 not met
19-18(-02)/6(-60)/6(-6)/0/06(06)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Rage -62 met 15 none

I ran the test game up to turn 30 and then checked all AI to see what they knew of nexus ruins. 13 had seen 60. 2 had seen 45. 4 had seen 15. Only one had seen none. None of them had colonized anything in the nexus, including the Rage. This is a game bug/feature that empires created under computer control will not colonize in any system created using the map editor. So for me map8 is a failure not worth any further time. I am going to make a mod with a new systemtype for the nexus 25x5 block design. Then I will generate maps until I get the right number of nexus systems and about 250+ total systems. Then I will shift systems into neat clusters, create the warp links and post. It will take about as long to do that as it would take me to manually add 25x5x11 planets (12+ hours). The planets will also have a variety of resources and climates rather than the boring 100/100/100 mild. There will also be ruins randomly added in normal quantities on lots of planets rather than lots just on selected ones. The AI should be willing to COLONIZE in the new nexus systems. If I put no medium or large planets in them then no AI should START in a nexus system. Only one nexus needs to be modded using the map editor - the one use for race 1 start at Central.

I checked the Modders guide in the archive for discussion of the politics file, but there are only a couple of discussions by Daynar and Master Belisarius. So I took the time to figure out what the specifications mean and explain them here for adding to the guide and enlightenment of other players. My politics rating in the Last couple of Posts has little meaning, because the treaties of a race depend more on who they have met and when than their race specifications. However, the data does seem to indicate that the AI politics file is being used and working well.

So far as treaty politics go, races fall into three broad categories - aggressive, defensive, and neutral. The AI politics files for the TDM-Modpack races are derived from these templates. What each race is and how it deviates from the template is best addressed by the race designers.

If you are much weaker (lower score in empires scores) compared to the race sending the message, then it uses demanding tone. If you are much stronger, then it uses pleading. How much weaker/stronger depends on the race.

The bug/feature I noted previously where a race has a treaty higher than "highest allowed treaty" is explained simply as discussed in another thread. The race will not propose higher than that level. But if ANOTHER race proposes the treaty then the low treaty race can accept it.

"Turns since Last war before friendly treaty" is since the war STARTED not since it ended. Otherwise two AI could never stop a mutual war. The defaults are 12/15/20. Exceptions are the relentless Xichung and Pyrochette at 50, and the unforgiving Norak at 100.

VERY IMPORTANT
The anger level is determined by the anger file. The point scores developed here are compared against that anger score. If points scored is less then the test fails. If greater then the action MAY be taken. I suspect a probability roll where the amount in excess gives the percentage chance that the action will occur. The reason is simply that if a bad politics event occurs you can quit, reload and go next turn. Often the politics list is completely different.
VERY IMPORTANT

The "base anger level" is the points scored before modifiers are considered. Positive modifiers increase the points scored, negative decrease them. So a race that is just plain mean has a LOWER base than normal for treaties, but a HIGHER base for breaking or declaring war. An example is the Pyrochette.

"Accept treaty anger modifier per higher treaty level" at -5. TA -5 to TR then TR -10 to MA then MA -15 to P ? Basically this means that the AI requires less anger to accept at the higher treaty levels. This makes sense, why would an AI be partners with somebody who hated him ? A tolerant race would have a less negative value, while an intolerant one would be more negative. I did a spot check, but they all seem to be -5.

"Accept treaty minimum anger chance" is a puzzler. They are all set at 5 except the Sergetti and Xichung at 1. I think it means that even if the points score test fails, then the probability roll still occurs with the chance given of the treaty accepted. With 20 races this means that on average only one or two would accept your treaty/upgrade if you proposed to all of them every turn. But your chances are MUCH better if you let the AI do the proposing. So about the only use is to get out of wars, trying every turn for the first 12 turns after the war started. After that you are better off letting the AI do the proposing.

"Anger modifier per other wars" is simple. As with the base, a really mean race will have a lower than normal for treaties, but a higher than normal for break/war. From a check it seems that they are all the same for break. The Rage check out as really mean...

"Accept treaty minimum time from Last treaty" means what it says. But it does NOT keep an AI race from proposing one treaty right after another, a common occurrence for the human player. You just have to let the AI initiate the upgrades, or wait ten turns. A spot check reveals very few if any of the AI want to be rushed.

"First 50 turns modifier" is a neat option. It lets you make a race really mean then settle down (lower than normal - none found), or alternatively morph from a forgiving mouse into a tiger at turn 50 (higher than normal) - Amonkrie, Rage, Sergetti, and especially Norak. I definitely intend to abuse this one when designing my race! I would like another added for turn 100 and put it on the break/war tests too.

"Anger Modifier for percent stronger player" and amount lets the race be cautious when facing a well established opponent. A lower than normal amount for treaties and a higher than normal for break/war would be a reckless player. The opposite would be a cautious one. I plan to be cautious. Lots of mods.

"Anger modifier for percent weaker player" and amount lets the race either pound on or ignore the really weak. A lower than normal amount for treaties and a higher than normal for break/war would be pound on. Ignore would be the opposite. I plan to pound on the weak. Lots of mods.

I checked the break treaty and declare war specifications, but not the treaties. What I found was interesting.
Almost all races are reckless toward stronger, ignore the weak. I think this is to have all the mid range and lower AI gang up on the strongest, pulling it down to their level.
The only exceptions I found in these two was the Darloks and Piundan, who reversed things as I plan to, cautious toward stronger, pound on the weak.
The Pyrochette are normal versus stronger and less tolerant but still mostly ignoring the weak.
Notice that this does NOT prevent wars between AI of comparable score. It just makes it more likely that if annoyed by a stronger war will be declared, while the antics of the weak are tolerated.

On the break treaty and declare war there are obviously other hard coded factors operating. I have found that while the very weak hate my guts, they will not break treaty once I have gotten the level to 20% IF and thats a BIG IF my trade level with them is a major factor in their economy. So do not get too out of proportion on your empire score between facilities and ship points. Basically ships/bases are one empire score point per 100k tons hull size. All production is one empire score point per production point. While getting your treaty level up you can prevent an AI from sending break treaty Messages by proposing a resource trade every turn. Generally I trade about 10 orgs/rads per 9 min recieved. With some you can do an even swap or better, you just have to experiment. A bug/feature which may be removed soon is that if you can find a succesful tech trade, then you can usually play it over again also demanding 200/200/200k in resources as part of the package and get it. Enjoy while it Lasts!

According to Daynar, propose treaty is based on what anger level the one considering the treaty message has toward the other race, and the race considering the treaty only cares what anger level the other race has for itself on accept treaty. Two examples to consider are the Krill and Xi Chung who hate everybody. Now if the other races cared that the Krill hated them, then they would not propose treaties, so it is only their own low anger that counts. The Krill have great success in treaty making and usually have only one or two wars going. So I think it is the Krill accepting treaties based on the low anger of the other that counts, ignoring their own hate. So Daynar is right based on my own observations of treaty making. That's why the player race which is seen as Brotherly by races who it sees are Murderous can make higher level treaties. Anger does not have to be mutual at all. The races in slots 1-13 should see a human player WHO DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY CLAIM SYSTEMS (an empires option at the bottom left) as Brotherly. As noted previously (turn 60 Last game) the races in slots 14-20 see a human player as Moderate, presumably to distinguish single system neutral race politics from competitive races. So put the haters into the early slots and the brotherlies at the end.
1) Brotherlies - Eee, Phong, Toltayan, Colonials, Narn, Toron
2) Murderous - Sallegra, Drushocka, Krill, Xi Chung
There may be more of either type, those are just the ones noted at turn 60 in my Last game.

"Propose treaty percent chance per turn" I suppose this means that the AI will not even check its test unless a probability roll succeeds. Alternatively it may do the test then if the condition is met it does a probability roll. The effect would be the same unless there is another roll based on how much the test exceeds the minimum. Obviously the higher the % then the more likely is treaty making.

"Propose treaty type x anger level below computed" A test of my points calculation can be done by having lots of wars. That makes a high points value. Subtracting the anger level leaves a lower value of residual points. The more wars and the more likely a treaty would be wanted, then the higher the residual. The higher the treaty level, then the less angry the partner must be, so then the higher the desired residual. This is precisely what the values are, typically TA 0 TR 5 MA 10 P 15. In other words for a partnership 15 added anger must be below the computed residual. This makes sense, to prevent upgrading a treaty which might be about to fail anyway. At TA and TR it is not so important. But at MA the treaty partner could refuel his ships and at P would gets maps....

All the rest of the stuff is self explanatory and much of it does not work. I guess Aaron did the essential stuff first then found that he had no time for the other or that there was just too much extraneous politics going on to get the important treaty Messages through, so he disabled it.

I hope the ten hours I spent on this has not been wasted. I just decided that since I needed to figure it out for designing my own race, I might as well post it....

[Atraikius]

Don't know if they have been fixed, but a couple of Versions ago, I found there are some of the politics settings that are not working at all.

Also, found that some of the modifiers seem to apply to the current anger level, while others apply to the anger level required for the condition to be true - making the values be opposite of what you would expect.

quote:

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Originally posted by Atraikius:
Also, found that some of the modifiers seem to apply to the current anger level, while others apply to the anger level required for the condition to be true - making the values be opposite of what you would expect.

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Which ones?? I thought that I had evaluated the logic VERY carefully, and checked it against observed racial behavior. The only one I can think you might mean is the added anger for treaties per upgrade, but that is just a point modifier too. Please be specific, after carefully checking the data and behavior observed.